[Discussion] Snorlax (Test banned to Ubers from April 12th to May 11th)

[fredrichnietze]

I only use impish duscs, possibly with 252 hp and def.

It does wonders against the most threatening ph attackers (except gyara, that will usually rek me).

 

Edit: Fred, do some calcs with weezing  :)

the problem with weezing is painsplit. ps needs snor to have high hp + it doesnt heal status. snor can just bslam weez till it gets para'd then curse up and rest off the wow. the only way weez can legit counter snor is with haze + ps + wow and even then it can only stall. if snor stays in it can eventually win through para's and crits over time more often then not.

[Vaeldras]

the problem with weezing is painsplit. ps needs snor to have high hp + it doesnt heal status. snor can just bslam weez till it gets para'd then curse up and rest off the wow. the only way weez can legit counter snor is with haze + ps + wow and even then it can only stall. if snor stays in it can eventually win through para's and crits over time more often then not.

 

You're right, while dusclops can basically stay in until snorlax is forced to rest because of the burn (and maybe some seismic tosses too  :D ).

Any other counter in mind? or just a check.

[fredrichnietze]

dusk cant be para'd but crits make it cry and whenever dusk vs snor happens it is bound to be a long fight.

[Vaeldras]

dusk cant be para'd but crits make it cry and whenever dusk vs snor happens it is bound to be a long fight.

 

Not really.

At some point, snorlax will have to rest. Then you can safely switch into anything able to 2hko it.

[Shaniqualela]

Not really.

At some point, snorlax will have to rest. Then you can safely switch into anything able to 2hko it.

sleep talk and subpunch(crunch) lax beat dusclops (and subpunch can beat weezing/dusc if it gets a sub on switch because it cant ps w-o-w or break the sub) but yeah those arent really broken because they are checked by many other things.

the only real problem is curselax imo, dusclops is just guts bait for ursaring, machamp, swellow, heracross. 

[Vaeldras]

sleep talk and subpunch(crunch) lax beat dusclops (and subpunch can beat weezing/dusc if it gets a sub on switch because it cant ps w-o-w or break the sub) but yeah those arent really broken because they are checked by many other things.

the only real problem is curselax imo, dusclops is just guts bait for ursaring, machamp, swellow, heracross. 

 

Heracross? it actually shreks both choice band and reversal, unless thief (we already had a discussion about it on it's thread).

Welp, of course dusclops has counters, it's not like i wanted to convince anyone that dusclops might even remotely be banworthy eh.

Just saying that we have at least one counter to it.

Even* weezing is a guts bait for ursa and maybe something else (especially with swords dance), but that doesn't change the fact that the thing is good (at least i've seen it on almost every team i've battled against recently, it should mean something).

Edited March 2, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Shaniqualela]

Heracross? it actually shreks both choice band and reversal, unless thief (we already had a discussion about it on it's thread).

Welp, of course dusclops has counters, it's not like i wanted to convince anyone that dusclops might even remotely be banworthy eh.

Just saying that we have at least one counter to it.

Even* weezing is a guts bait for ursa and maybe something else (especially with swords dance), but that doesn't change the fact that the thing is good (at least i've seen it on almost every team i've battled against recently, it should mean something).

by guts bait i meant it gets burned then switches out.

dusclops isnt really a counter, its a check because some sets can beat dusclops.

[FuzzyLogic]

Counters of curselax: Any leech,growl blis,roar/ww ,counter,psych up meta,haze weezing,disable+curse gengar[or just curse when it rests],Dugtrio[Schreech](since  cant run curse +ww),destiny bond,rhydorn,cm bro(most of the times),Intimidate barkanine (abusing the intimidate on switches in, have done it many times) srs why would u ban a poke that has so many counters? i didnt even wrote down the physical attackers that wrecks it(Hi medicham, nice to meet you).

Normal snorlax itsnt that threating imo, counters: rhy,metagross,swampert,arcanine,rhydorn,walls,gengar,leech,sweepers,counter

(Also perish wrecks both).

[spoiler]And OrangeManic's Jolteon with some luck.[/spoiler]

Edited March 3, 2015 by liotec

[DrCraig]

Counters of curselax: Any leech,growl blis,roar/ww ,counter,psych up meta,haze weezing,disable+curse gengar[or just curse when it rests],Dugtrio[Schreech](since  cant run curse +ww),destiny bond,rhydorn,cm bro(most of the times),Intimidate barkanine (abusing the intimidate on switches in, have done it many times) srs why would u ban a poke that has so many counters? i didnt even wrote down the physical attackers that wrecks it(Hi medicham, nice to meet you).
Normal snorlax itsnt that threating imo, counters: rhy,metagross,swampert,arcanine,rhydorn,walls,gengar,leech,sweepers,counter
(Also perish wrecks both).
[spoiler]And OrangeManic's Jolteon with some luck.[/spoiler]

A lot of those are checks.. like intimidate abusing doesn't accomplish anything

[XPLOZ]

Some good phasers :

-Vapoeron

-Swampert

-Skarmony

 

But they all take bad hits just before phasing :

+1 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 94-112 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 78-93 (37.6 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 68-80 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Add to this the 30% chance para of body slam, and this is quite punishing.

 

 

Counters of curselax: Any leech,growl blis,roar/ww ,counter,psych up meta,haze weezing,disable+curse gengar[or just curse when it rests],Dugtrio[Schreech](since  cant run curse +ww),destiny bond,rhydorn,cm bro(most of the times),Intimidate barkanine (abusing the intimidate on switches in, have done it many times) srs why would u ban a poke that has so many counters? i didnt even wrote down the physical attackers that wrecks it(Hi medicham, nice to meet you).

Normal snorlax itsnt that threating imo, counters: rhy,metagross,swampert,arcanine,rhydorn,walls,gengar,leech,sweepers,counter

(Also perish wrecks both).

[spoiler]And OrangeManic's Jolteon with some luck.[/spoiler]

 

Wtf are many of your counters ?

-Leech : how ? Curse Curse Curse Rest OHKO

-Growl bliss : Marginal

-Roar : >Calcs + what if Curselax is the last ingame

-Counter : Marginal + useless if scouted.

-Destiny Bond : Same and easy to pp waste

-CM Slowbro : he comes on lax, lax does Curse, CM, Curse, CM, Curse

+2 0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 73-87 (31 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 109-130 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and if crunch :

+2 252 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 112-132 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

-Medicham (aka the best counter of lax)

252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 82-97 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 123-145 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

add the 30% chance paralysis of course

 

Edited March 3, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Robofiend]

-Medicham (aka the best counter of lax)

252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 82-97 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 123-145 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

add the 30% chance paralysis of course

 

 

Durp, don't switch in your physical attacker on Snorlax (unless it's named Rhydon)

 

Growl Bliss is pretty funny, I want to use

[BurntZebra]

Durp, don't switch in your physical attacker on Snorlax (unless it's named Rhydon)

 

Growl Bliss is pretty funny, I want to use

It's pretty great, especially when the curselax user realizes they're at -4 attack and pretty much need to switch out. The massive 64 pp of growl also helps in most situations

[FuzzyLogic]

Some good phasers :
-Vapoeron
-Swampert
-Skarmony

But they all take bad hits just before phasing :
+1 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 94-112 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 78-93 (37.6 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 68-80 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Add to this the 30% chance para of body slam, and this is quite punishing.




Wtf are many of your counters ?
-Leech : how ? Curse Curse Curse Rest OHKO
-Growl bliss : Marginal
-Roar : >Calcs + what if Curselax is the last ingame
-Counter : Marginal + useless if scouted.
-Destiny Bond : Same and easy to pp waste
-CM Slowbro : he comes on lax, lax does Curse, CM, Curse, CM, Curse
+2 0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 73-87 (31 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 109-130 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and if crunch :

+2 252 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 112-132 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery




-Medicham (aka the best counter of lax)

252 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 82-97 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 123-145 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
add the 30% chance paralysis of course

First of all did i mention vaporeon or you are just mad-not reading well-cuz u cant hanndle a curselax?
Swampert is counter for non curselaxes ,cb superpower non-cb roar does realy well,leech sure it doesnt kill it but try to boost up curse and rest when the opponent use something with sub and leech feeds it u will end up not having pp's.
make sure u wont lose your counter-curselax if u arent sure opponent has one... thats not a reason to ban it tho... a lot of pokemon sweep in late game what is your suggestion? ban them all so u will play safe? sure snorlax has high sp def and hp but all fighters ohko's it.destriny + curse totaly wrecks it as much as haze weezing,psych up meta and many things.even curselax counter curse lax.
about the :+1 252 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 68-80 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- if thats your problem run counter on it.... u modify your comps to work to the best instead if complaining and ban everything. curselax and normal lax got many ways to deal with, especially snorly that lets rhy free set up, and meta too.How leech work? Imagine a scenario that u go into gengar it uses curse to set up, u burn it[it sleeps eventually] u go into Ludi [1st turn sleep] leech it [2nd turn] go into a wall [vapo] and let it give you free hp. Scenario too:u burn it, it goes rest eventually. u brign in anything with roar and now opponent has a sleepy snorlax.scenario 3,when it rests go into breloom [sub/seed].even jumpluff/sceptile can do that.Anyway thats just my opinion doesnt mean its right.

A lot of those are checks.. like intimidate abusing doesn't accomplish anything

If u bring in arcanine on a lax u can find out if its curselax or not[most of the times] without risking much, so not anything. Edited March 4, 2015 by Noad
Do not double post, please.

[BurntZebra]

If u bring in arcanine on a lax u can find out if its curselax or not,  without risking much, so not anything.

except when arcanine gets paralyzed then is a massive piece of shit for the rest of match and gets outsped by forretress and paras 4 times in a row *cough burntzebra's arcanine cough*

[FuzzyLogic]

except when arcanine gets paralyzed then is a massive piece of shit for the rest of match and gets outsped by forretress and paras 4 times in a row *cough burntzebra's arcanine cough*

no argument there. but i never run a team without a status healer so i dont realy care lol

im jelly of your growl blis gun make a 2nd like that :F

Edited March 4, 2015 by liotec

[XPLOZ]

First of all did i mention vaporeon or you are just mad-not reading well-cuz u cant hanndle a curselax?

Swampert is counter for non curselaxes ,cb superpower non-cb roar does realy well,leech sure it doesnt kill it but try to boost up curse and rest when the opponent use something with sub and leech feeds it u will end up not having pp's.

make sure u wont lose your counter-curselax if u arent sure opponent has one... thats not a reason to ban it tho... a lot of pokemon sweep in late game what is your suggestion? ban them all so u will play safe? sure snorlax has high sp def and hp but all fighters ohko's it.destriny + curse totaly wrecks it as much as haze weezing,psych up meta and many things.even curselax counter curse lax.

about the :+1 252 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 68-80 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- if thats your problem run counter on  it.... u modify your comps to work to the best instead if complaining and ban everything. curselax and normal lax got many ways to deal with, especially snorly that lets rhy free set up, and meta too.How leech work? Imagine a scenario that u go into gengar it uses curse to set up, u burn it[it sleeps eventually] u go into Ludi [1st turn sleep] leech it [2nd turn] go into a wall [vapo] and let it give you free hp. Scenario too:u burn it, it goes rest eventually. u brign in anything with roar and now opponent has a sleepy snorlax.scenario 3,when it rests go into breloom [sub/seed].even jumpluff/sceptile can do that.Anyway thats just my opinion doesnt mean its right.

 

First where do you see that i want to ban Curselax because I can't handle it ?

 

 

But curselax alone isn't that OP. Just run supporting moves, and you will be able to deal with it (I agree it will be more difficult if snorlax is the last pokemon ingame...).

 

Secondly i wasn't talking to you when i was talking about phasers. That's why i quoted your message after. I just said objectively that phasers aren't that safe against Curselax.

Moreover i didn't say that there is no counter to Curselax, I just anwsered because you were findind counters everywhere even if we all know that those things aren't true counters (or we can say that destiny bond counters everything, lol).

If i didn't talk about all your counters, this is because i agree for some of them.

[FuzzyLogic]

First where do you see that i want to ban Curselax because I can't handle it ?

 

 

Secondly i wasn't talking to you when i was talking about phasers. That's why i quoted your message after. I just said objectively that phasers aren't that safe against Curselax.

Moreover i didn't say that there is no counter to Curselax, I just anwsered because you were findind counters everywhere even if we all know that those things aren't true counters (or we can say that destiny bond counters everything, lol).

If i didn't talk about all your counters, this is because i agree for some of them.

You are right about that, my miss bro.

with whatever we post here one thing is true... you just cant run counters for literaly anything, your team will always be weak to something...spikes,status,sweepers[your walls just cant wall any sweeper] example blazi wrecks everything except slowbro, but hera kills it etc... ofc snorlax is pain i agree i lost sometimes on lategames from it but,truth is u can always save the rhy, or a lot of counters to the end if u see a snormal switch in... if u dont then make the sacrifice of the counter matter ;F weezing its great to use cuz it walls hera/snorlax both are popular and can put your team in danger , truth is many sweepers are hard to handle but as i said your team just cant be invincible it will always have a weakspot,imo what everyones team build is about, is to cover as many as possible "weaknesss". What i try to say is that, example: if a hera sets up it sweeps everything if no counter along with curselax and a lot of stuff... dd gyara too, well all need a plan to be stopped :F altho they dont bulk they are fast and dangerous as curselax is :F

Edited March 4, 2015 by liotec

[DoubleJ]

You are right about that, my miss bro.

with whatever we state here one thing is true... you just cant run counters for literaly anything, your team will always be weak to something...spikes,status,sweepers[your walls just cant wall any sweeper] example blazi wrecks everything but slowbro hera kills it etc... ofc snorlax is pain i agree i lost sometimes on lategames from it but,truth is u can always save the rhy, or a lot of counters to the end if u see a snormal switch in... if u dont then make the sacrifice of the counter matter ;F weezing its great to use cuz it walls hera/snorlax both are popular and can put your team in danger , truth is many sweepers are hard to handle but as i say your team just cant be invincible it will always have a weakspot,imo what everyones team build is, is that to cover as many as possible of em. what i wanna say is that, example: if a hera sets up it sweeps everything if no counter along with curselax and a lot of stuff... dd gyara too, well all need a plan to be stopped :F altho they dont bulk they are fast and dangerous as curselax is :F

 

wot

[FuzzyLogic]

wot

simplify:there is no perfect team. 

better?

and lets be honest here normal snorlax itsnt threat at all [Dont misanderstand me they are strong just not that hard to get rid of as curselaxes]. Curselaxes is the problem,i stated the counters for that reason: many pokemons/moves counter it/not letting it boost up [with curses], im only asking u guys if it is worth banning something with so many strategies/moves to counter, thats all. if the answer is yes then go ahead and ban it im with u guys.

Edited March 4, 2015 by liotec

[fredrichnietze]

guys remember

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

just because someone argues the world is round because the spaghetti god likes meatballs, does not mean the world is not round.

[DoubleJ]

simplify:there is no perfect team. 

better?

and lets be honest here normal snorlax itsnt threat at all curselax is the problem,i stated the counters for that reason.... my point is....that, many pokemons/moves counter it/not letting it boost up curses, thats why i mentioned the counters

 

With that ideology Salamence, Tyranitar, and Dragonite should be brought back down from ubers. We are all well aware that there is no "perfect" pokemon team, or even pokemon, but what we are getting at with each of these bans is if a pokemon (or a specific moveset) provides players with an easy advantage over other players.

 

With Curselax, I believe this is the case. The only sound defense against this guy is Sub + Disable Gengar or Rhydon. Only one of which can switch in consistently, Rhydon, but even then it runs the risk of paralysis which isn't all that much fun. 

 

Weezing is decent check because it's faster, has Will-o-Wisp to shut Snorlax down, and is pretty much a 3HKO with any shake. Sadly though it can't touch Lax one bit. 

 

The CB Fighting types are of course checks, but you can't swap those guys in all willy nilly. You either have to predict a curse, let something die, or risk paralysis, a crit, and damage (duh).

 

Metagross is great, but again, paralysis makes it cry. Having Fire Punch on your lax goes a long way as well, showing you that Metagross doesn't have the "countering" power that Rhydon does.

 

I don't know man, I don't know. Snorlax with Curse is a pretty scary thing, even more so late-game when your option of phasing it is gone.

 

[spoiler] Let's all run Haze Weezing! [/spoiler] 

[FuzzyLogic]

With that ideology Salamence, Tyranitar, and Dragonite should be brought back down from ubers. We are all well aware that there is no "perfect" pokemon team, or even pokemon, but what we are getting at with each of these bans is if a pokemon (or a specific moveset) provides players with an easy advantage over other players.

 

With Curselax, I believe this is the case. The only sound defense against this guy is Sub + Disable Gengar or Rhydon. Only one of which can switch in consistently, Rhydon, but even then it runs the risk of paralysis which isn't all that much fun. 

 

Weezing is decent check because it's faster, has Will-o-Wisp to shut Snorlax down, and is pretty much a 3HKO with any shake. Sadly though it can't touch Lax one bit. 

 

The CB Fighting types are of course checks, but you can't swap those guys in all willy nilly. You either have to predict a curse, let something die, or risk paralysis, a crit, and damage (duh).

 

Metagross is great, but again, paralysis makes it cry. Having Fire Punch on your lax goes a long way as well, showing you that Metagross doesn't have the "countering" power that Rhydon does.

 

I don't know man, I don't know. Snorlax with Curse is a pretty scary thing, even more so late-game when your option of phasing it is gone.

 

[spoiler] Let's all run Haze Weezing! [/spoiler] 

Read my edit, on last post. ty

Edited March 4, 2015 by liotec

[DoubleJ]

Read my edit. ty

 

I did. Read my wall of text. ty.

 

[spoiler] To answer your edit in a shorter stance, yes, Curselax is banworthy in my opinion. [/spoiler]

 

And don't get snarky with me just because I challenged you. 

[Noad]

Anyway, let's get back to actually talking about Snorlax. I've been enjoying the drama free tier discussion for once o/

[Vaeldras]

I like the way this thread is going.

Then i guess i can finally say that the only reason why you guys are getting shrekt by curselax on a daily basis, is because you're a bunch of walluguu.

Case dismissed.

 

 

Jk, but i don't really see curselax as a threat, at least not with the team i'm using (edit* I won't say it is not one of the best pokes we have at the moment, that would be dumb to say the least).

Btw, have you guys already realized this thread is ALL about curselax, right? i'd still like to know what is the problem with complex bans ( i'm serious, i still don't get it).

Messy tier list aside ofc.

 

[spoiler]Dusclops is good, i swear! it is our best CURSElax counter, those calcs really turned me on[/spoiler]

Edited March 4, 2015 by Vaeldras