[Discussion] Snorlax (Test banned to Ubers from April 12th to May 11th)

[DrCraig]

And here we have the fat whale that everybody loves

 

Snorlax

(Currently OU)

 

Viable Moves:

Offensive                                                Status

Bodyslam                                                                 Rest

Crunch                                                                    Curse

Fire Punch                                                           Whirlwind

Pursuit                                                                   Sleeptalk

Self-Destruct                                                          Counter

Fire Blast                                                                 Charm

Earthquake                                                            Lovely Kiss

Superpower/Focus Punch                                     Belly Drum

Thunder/Ice Punch                                                 Substitute

Rock Slide

Special move garbage

 

 

 

Viable Sets

*Note* I am only going to list names of sets, and moves. Most lax sets can be ran with adamant, brave, careful, sassy, impish, or relaxed and there is no point of me repeating myself. Also Snorlax runs varying EVs which are also not worth running. If anybody can propose an EV spread we should make the staple for calcs to avoid confusion, go ahead.

 

 

Curselax

Item: Leftovers

Moveset:

- Rest

- Curse

- Body Slam

- Fire Punch

*The staple Snorlax set which has few counters, most of which are overly specific. Snorlax is fairly easy to support and make way for it to curse up and sweep.

 

Utility Lax

Item: Leftovers

Moveset:

- Rest

- Body Slam

- Whirlwind

- Crunch/Pursuit

*Snorlax's bulk allows it to perform as a great as a phazer for pesky calm minders, or a great pursuit user to effectively remove spinning Starmie. This lax is safe to use and overall a solid option.

 

Offensive Lax

Item: Leftovers

Moveset:

- Rest

- Body Slam

- Fire Punch/Fire Blast/Crunch

- Pursuit/Crunch/Superpower/Self-Destruct

*Snorlax has a very high attack stat, and a huge move pool allowing this set work excellent. Body slam spam being annoying as fuck can pave a path for Lax to be a huge uguu to handle.

 

CB Lax

Item: Choice Band

Moveset:

- Body Slam

- Crunch/Pursuit

- Fire Blast

- Self-Destruct

*Hard hitting, annoying stab, and it explodes. And coverage. Yea.

 

There are other sets, because Lax has a lot of versatility, but these are the main sets which are used effectively and often.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I'm proposing we discuss moving Snorlax to Ubers because of its bulk, versatility, and lack of counters which aren't overly specific (and not just checks you losers.)

DISHCUSH!

Edited February 28, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

this thread again...

 

I'm not really buying it, given how physical the metagame currently is. I will say this: Curselax is really hard to stop without Haze Weezing, Skarmory, or Rhydon, all of whom have pretty significant downsides. If you're up against a runaway Curselax, sometimes you almost have to sack a pokemon to get a counter into play, which can really cost your team. 

[OldKeith]

Nicely made, the curse set is quite punishing, especially in the late game. Not being sure whether Snorlax will curse or attack can be a crucial moment.

 

As I said it in all the other threads: Snorlax comes in too easy on any special attack. If it gets 2 curses, things can turn really bad. I have seen people sacking their teams in late game to bring in Snorlax, start setting up curses, and sweep the endgame. Too few things can one shot it after curse (such as Medicham, Blaziken, Breloom) and they really hate landing on a Body Slam, while predicting Curse.

 

I'd rather see this uncompetitive devil go, to make room for other walls that find it harder to come in, and punish their opposition much less.

[DestructX]

sorta scary when people start cursing vs a full hp metagross, its basically forcing me to explode or hope for meteor mash attack boosts (which never happens for me)

[BurntZebra]

But growl blissey

[ThinkNice]

I'd rather see this uncompetitive devil go, to make room for other walls that find it harder to come in, and punish their opposition much less.

That's not what uncompetitive means.

 

sorta scary when people start cursing vs a full hp metagross, its basically forcing me to explode or hope for meteor mash attack boosts (which never happens for me)

Psych up Metagross is a great way for letting the Snorlax user think he is safe and then shit on him by boosting your Atk and Defense to +6. It's actually a great move on Metagross turning the tides on any Curselax. That being said defensive Gar with Taunt breaks Curselax apart too, or if you'd like you can use Curse.

[DestructX]

 

Psych up Metagross is a great way for letting the Snorlax user think he is safe and then shit on him by boosting your Atk and Defense to +6. It's actually a great move on Metagross turning the tides on any Curselax. That being said defensive Gar with Taunt breaks Curselax apart too, or if you'd like you can use Curse.

yeah i like psych up, its just the part of replacing either explosion or thunder punch, both great moves for metagross

[DrCraig]

yeah i like psych up, its just the part of replacing either explosion or thunder punch, both great moves for metagross

Yep, and to only psych up against Snorlax

 

and Slowbro I guess which doesnt even happen anymore

[OldKeith]

Psych up Metagross is a great way for letting the Snorlax user think he is safe and then shit on him by boosting your Atk and Defense to +6. It's actually a great move on Metagross turning the tides on any Curselax. That being said defensive Gar with Taunt breaks Curselax apart too, or if you'd like you can use Curse.

 

Gimmicks galore!

[Robofiend]

Taunt Subpunch Gengar is actually really underrated

[Shaniqualela]

Gimmicks galore!

its not a gimmick if you run white herb on it 

too bad its totally unviable because you have to grind Trainer tower for it and its one time use

 

 

this thread again...

 

I'm not really buying it, given how physical the metagame currently is. I will say this: Curselax is really hard to stop without Haze Weezing, Skarmory, or Rhydon, all of whom have pretty significant downsides. If you're up against a runaway Curselax, sometimes you almost have to sack a pokemon to get a counter into play, which can really cost your team. 

 

sorta scary when people start cursing vs a full hp metagross, its basically forcing me to explode or hope for meteor mash attack boosts (which never happens for me)

Nicely made, the curse set is quite punishing, especially in the late game. Not being sure whether Snorlax will curse or attack can be a crucial moment.

 

As I said it in all the other threads: Snorlax comes in too easy on any special attack. If it gets 2 curses, things can turn really bad. I have seen people sacking their teams in late game to bring in Snorlax, start setting up curses, and sweep the endgame. Too few things can one shot it after curse (such as Medicham, Blaziken, Breloom) and they really hate landing on a Body Slam, while predicting Curse.

 

I'd rather see this uncompetitive devil go, to make room for other walls that find it harder to come in, and punish their opposition much less.

 

Edited March 1, 2015 by cgaribaldi94

[ThinkNice]

It's as much as a gimmick as HP Grass is on Tyranitar. Curselax is fairly common and with just one move on your whole team you completely shut it down. The best part of it is that you can drop the guard of your opponent thinking he has it in the bag with his fourth/fifth Curse and then you reverse the roles completely. A gimmick would be a moveset that is totally designed to do one thing, know what you are saying before you say it. Just as people ramble on about things being 'uncompetitive', if you don't know the meaning of a term don't use it.

 

+6 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. +6 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 228-268 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 124-148 (34 - 40.6%) -- 53.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

edit: Should add that a gimmick mostly consists of uncommon moves/spreads/items that only is effective in the surprise factor.

 

When you are using HP Grass on Tyranitar or Psych Up against Metagross we're speaking of 'baits'. One moveslot that enables the Pokémon to deal with something that do not require any change of EVs/natures and still make the Pokémon fully capable of doing its normal job.

Edited March 1, 2015 by ThinkNice

[KingBowser]

I think we all should know the checks/counters to curselax, so really comes down to if the tier concil feels them same. Thread is gonna turn into the previous one, where the snorlax has bodyslam, belly drum, psychic, surf, ww all on the same moveset. So is a complex ban of curse out of this realm?

[DoubleJ]

I think we all should know the checks/counters to curselax, so really comes down to if the tier concil feels them same. Thread is gonna turn into the previous one, where the snorlax has bodyslam, belly drum, psychic, surf, ww all on the same moveset. So is a complex ban of curse out of this realm?

 

I'm in the same boat as this. We all see Curselax as a pain in the ass and we've all had to learn to carry certain pokes just to slow it down. I'm on the fence about this ban. Personally I would like to see a ban on the Curse variant alone, similarly to what we've done in the past.

 

It's up to the tier council though to make this decision. I'm sure they have enough information to make a reasonable decision without much more input from us. We've had this argument countless times in the past and despite a growing physical meta, Curselax is still a dominating force. 

[Robofiend]

I think we all should know the checks/counters to curselax, so really comes down to if the tier concil feels them same. Thread is gonna turn into the previous one, where the snorlax has bodyslam, belly drum, psychic, surf, ww all on the same moveset. So is a complex ban of curse out of this realm?

 

Probably. We all know what happened last time we banned Snorlax: it just made the meta really imbalanced and awful. I'm tempted to say we wouldn't make the same mistake twice. 

 

That said, here's my actual contribution to the conversation:

 

1. There are lots of pokemon that can kill Snorlax at +1. If you see a Snorlax you should do one of two things: risk taking a Body Slam to the face and sending in an offensive counter or send in a wall that can eat a Body Slam and phase Snorlax out. If you're doing something other than that, you're doing it wrong.

 

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 510-600 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 154-182 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 102-122 (39.3 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-> barring awful damage rolls, Flygon can do it

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 394-464 (152.1 - 179.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +2 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 294-346 (113.5 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 263-310 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-> you don't even need CB to pull the Explosion trick

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 258-306 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 260-308 (100.3 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

lol even Dodrio works:

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 150-178 (57.9 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

We all know Subtrio works.

 

2.  There are walls that stop Snorlax early game. If you're using Weezing, Skarmory or Vaporeon you can phase Snorlax and save a physical sweeper to take out Snorlax late game. Hell, you could even use Rhydon, it's fairly functional as a wall breaker once it's got a sub up.

 

3. You can build teams that aren't bait for Snorlax. If you're using Jolteon as a special sweeper, Wish, Heal Bell or Sub/Swag can give you some added

defense against Snorlax's ease on switching in. Spikes+Roar make Snorlax's Curse set struggle since it's grounded and not very offensive. Gengar can run Taunt+Wisp+PS/Taunt+Focus Punch+Disable or Perish Trap to get an insta win against Snorlax. The only thing in the metagame that is 100% bait for Snorlax is Starmie, and you're bad if you use it.

 

Snorlax is really strong and pretty centralizing, but it's hardly as mindless as something like Dragonite or Salamence. This discussion also doesn't take into account things like CB Lax or Pursuit Lax (or WW Lax). 

[YagamiNoir]

Probably. We all know what happened last time we banned Snorlax: it just made the meta really imbalanced and awful. I'm tempted to say we wouldn't make the same mistake twice. 

 

That said, here's my actual contribution to the conversation:

 

1. There are lots of pokemon that can kill Snorlax at +1. If you see a Snorlax you should do one of two things: risk taking a Body Slam to the face and sending in an offensive counter or send in a wall that can eat a Body Slam and phase Snorlax out. If you're doing something other than that, you're doing it wrong.

 

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 510-600 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 154-182 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 102-122 (39.3 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-> barring awful damage rolls, Flygon can do it

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 394-464 (152.1 - 179.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +2 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 294-346 (113.5 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 263-310 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-> you don't even need CB to pull the Explosion trick

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 258-306 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 260-308 (100.3 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

lol even Dodrio works:

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 150-178 (57.9 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

We all know Subtrio works.

 

2.  There are walls that stop Snorlax early game. If you're using Weezing, Skarmory or Vaporeon you can phase Snorlax and save a physical sweeper to take out Snorlax late game. Hell, you could even use Rhydon, it's fairly functional as a wall breaker once it's got a sub up.

 

3. You can build teams that aren't bait for Snorlax. If you're using Jolteon as a special sweeper, Wish, Heal Bell or Sub/Swag can give you some added

defense against Snorlax's ease on switching in. Spikes+Roar make Snorlax's Curse set struggle since it's grounded and not very offensive. Gengar can run Taunt+Wisp+PS/Taunt+Focus Punch+Disable or Perish Trap to get an insta win against Snorlax. The only thing in the metagame that is 100% bait for Snorlax is Starmie, and you're bad if you use it.

 

Snorlax is really strong and pretty centralizing, but it's hardly as mindless as something like Dragonite or Salamence. This discussion also doesn't take into account things like CB Lax or Pursuit Lax (or WW Lax). 

I highly doubt the legitimacy of Metagross having to Explode on Snorlax just to deal with it. A counter or check doesn't have to die to kill what it checks or counters just to deal with it. The fact that you have to resort to something like Explosion also speaks for itself how stupid it is. 

 

The whole 188 HP/104 Defense set I don't know what it'd be for, but, well -- if you run 252/252+ or something along the lines of that, stuff like Flygon and Dodrio aren't even worth your time. I suppose I'm not one in a position to bring up sets like this though, but when I gave my humongous text wall about Curselax (which I believe you gave some noteworthy praise) I did argue in regards to this factor. 

 

252+ Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 252/252+ Snorlax: 119-140 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 

+1 0 Snorlax Body Slam vs. 4/0 -1 Flygon: 94-111 (60.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 252/252+ Snorlax: 127-150 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +2 252/252+ Snorlax: 96-114 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- 96.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 Snorlax Body Slam vs. Dodrio: 105-124 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

SubTrio needs Screech, I suppose. Otherwise, Snorlax can just setup to whatever heights it wants first before breaking it's Sub. 

 

The bolded risk is a pretty damn big one, given how a lucky Parahax can really screw whatever that switches in on it. Logically, no one should also attempt to Curse early game knowing that there are adequate counters waiting in the wings, and wall or not, a lucky Parahax cripples most of anything, although Vaporeon can Heal Bell it away. It's not blindly spamming Body Slam, but it's usually preferable since there's not as much of a risk as Cursing -- far less, in fact. That being said, Snorlax can be responded to provided it is responded at +1, but anything risks taking some damage instead and parahax, which can be crippling to more offensive checks. Body Slamming walls is also better than Cursing on them, doing nothing and letting them stop you until they are crippled enough for everything to set up. Snorlax only sets up when it's favourable, and Snorlax can facilitate that for itself slowly instead of going for the immediate YOLO setup. This is legit for everything, but Snorlax is kind of the biggest epitome of a rewarding setup attacker here. Although this is highly dependent on the situation and player, Snorlax is also admittedly more resillient in a match that any of your mentioned counters does. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[BurntZebra]

Probably. We all know what happened last time we banned Snorlax: it just made the meta really imbalanced and awful. I'm tempted to say we wouldn't make the same mistake twice. 

 

That said, here's my actual contribution to the conversation:

 

1. There are lots of pokemon that can kill Snorlax at +1. If you see a Snorlax you should do one of two things: risk taking a Body Slam to the face and sending in an offensive counter or send in a wall that can eat a Body Slam and phase Snorlax out. If you're doing something other than that, you're doing it wrong.

 

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 510-600 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 154-182 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Superpower vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 102-122 (39.3 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-> barring awful damage rolls, Flygon can do it

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 394-464 (152.1 - 179.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Explosion vs. +2 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 294-346 (113.5 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metagross Explosion vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 263-310 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-> you don't even need CB to pull the Explosion trick

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 258-306 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 260-308 (100.3 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

lol even Dodrio works:

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 188 HP / 104 Def Snorlax: 150-178 (57.9 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

We all know Subtrio works.

 

2.  There are walls that stop Snorlax early game. If you're using Weezing, Skarmory or Vaporeon you can phase Snorlax and save a physical sweeper to take out Snorlax late game. Hell, you could even use Rhydon, it's fairly functional as a wall breaker once it's got a sub up.

 

3. You can build teams that aren't bait for Snorlax. If you're using Jolteon as a special sweeper, Wish, Heal Bell or Sub/Swag can give you some added

defense against Snorlax's ease on switching in. Spikes+Roar make Snorlax's Curse set struggle since it's grounded and not very offensive. Gengar can run Taunt+Wisp+PS/Taunt+Focus Punch+Disable or Perish Trap to get an insta win against Snorlax. The only thing in the metagame that is 100% bait for Snorlax is Starmie, and you're bad if you use it.

 

Snorlax is really strong and pretty centralizing, but it's hardly as mindless as something like Dragonite or Salamence. This discussion also doesn't take into account things like CB Lax or Pursuit Lax (or WW Lax). 

cosmic power starmie? 

[Archinix]

pls fix title its missing "OU"

Sorry ocd lel

[codylramey]

Oh wow thought it would take longer than this for him to be brought up.

 

Banning curse on lax isnt gonna happen bc the tier counsil likes to use the slippery slope argument against those kinds of bans.

 

Snorlax is a poke that you deff have to predict against. Which is kind of odd bc hes suppose to be a wall, just somehting to keep in mind. Parahax and run away curses can deff ruin a match for you. But lax cant just come in and curse up willy nilly. If there is something in the background who can get cureslax to low health then cursing on it isnt a good idea. While he is a special wall he can be broken by a special move if a physical hitter has already taken a lot out of him. But now ur assuming you just loss one poke that to this thing already. 

 

I dont have time to write much more but something that can be used to break curse laxs very effectivly is sup disable gengar. All curselaxs only carry one move to hit gengar thus allowing him to freely set up and FP away. You are relying on a crit to kill but the amount of FP you get to use against it means that a crit is bound to happen. It is a good idea to pp max FP thos bc it may take a while for that crit to happen and you would want as many chances agaisnt it for it to happen. And sub disable gar is far from a gimmick.

Edited March 1, 2015 by codylramey

[Vaeldras]

Choice band snorlax is clearly broken

 

 

 

[spoiler]Ban curse[/spoiler]

[Robofiend]

stuff

 

I understand your points, but there are multiple pokemon that put the same amount of pressure on teams that Snorlax does. Gyarados and Heracross, in particular, are scary to the point where giving them an extra turn to set up can cost you the match, similar to how letting Snorlax Curse twice can cost you. Even Kingdra is pretty scary with a DD under its belt given its solid bulk and typing and if it manages to get to +2/+3 you're probably going to regret it. In most pokemon metagames there are non-Uber threats that can sweep given the right conditions and our current metagame sees the same thing with Snorlax. Remember that the Uber criteria is (essentially) that once a pokemon gets into play it can sweep with minimal prediction or skill, and while Curselax is easy to play, it's not like Tyranitar or Dragonite, who can sweep reliably and/or lack reliable checks.

 

Examples from 6th gen: Bisharp, M-Altaria, Lucario (UU), M-Pinsir, Talonflame, Clefable. If you mess up and somehow let one of these pokes boost on you or blast your wall with a full-power attack they can tear a serious hole in your team. Similar to Snorlax, effectively checking these pokes requires that you predict correctly, since all of them have the power to break a wide range of counters with a stat boost late game. This argument isn't extremely nuanced (obviously there are major differences between all of these pokes, the metas that they live in and Curselax) but it should give you a feel for one of the harshest facts of pokemon - sometimes one bad play costs you the match, like when you burn a Curselax with Weezing and it decides to boost to +2/3 and Rest off the damage (and you don't have haze).

 

I dont have time to write much more but something that can be used to break curse laxs very effectivly is sup disable gengar. All curselaxs only carry one move to hit gengar thus allowing him to freely set up and FP away. You are relying on a crit to kill but the amount of FP you get to use against it means that a crit is bound to happen. It is a good idea to pp max FP thos bc it may take a while for that crit to happen and you would want as many chances agaisnt it for it to happen. And sub disable gar is far from a gimmik.

 

 

Like I keep saying, Sub/Disable/Taunt/Focus Punch Gengar sets are the bane of Curselax's existence, and if used correctly Gengar is basically a free switch into Snorlax early game (no one uses Crunch as a "fishing" move early game anyway). 

[codylramey]

I understand your points, but there are multiple pokemon that put the same amount of pressure on teams that Snorlax does. Gyarados and Heracross, in particular, are scary to the point where giving them an extra turn to set up can cost you the match, similar to how letting Snorlax Curse twice can cost you. Even Kingdra is pretty scary with a DD under its belt given its solid bulk and typing and if it manages to get to +2/+3 you're probably going to regret it. In most pokemon metagames there are non-Uber threats that can sweep given the right conditions and our current metagame sees the same thing with Snorlax. Remember that the Uber criteria is (essentially) that once a pokemon gets into play it can sweep with minimal prediction or skill, and while Curselax is easy to play, it's not like Tyranitar or Dragonite, who can sweep reliably and/or lack reliable checks.

 

Examples from 6th gen: Bisharp, M-Altaria, Lucario (UU), M-Pinsir, Talonflame, Clefable. If you mess up and somehow let one of these pokes boost on you or blast your wall with a full-power attack they can tear a serious hole in your team. Similar to Snorlax, effectively checking these pokes requires that you predict correctly, since all of them have the power to break a wide range of counters with a stat boost late game. This argument isn't extremely nuanced (obviously there are major differences between all of these pokes, the metas that they live in and Curselax) but it should give you a feel for one of the harshest facts of pokemon - sometimes one bad play costs you the match, like when you burn a Curselax with Weezing and it decides to boost to +2/3 and Rest off the damage (and you don't have haze).

 

 

 

Like I keep saying, Sub/Disable/Taunt/Focus Punch Gengar sets are the bane of Curselax's existence, and if used correctly Gengar is basically a free switch into Snorlax early game (no one uses Crunch as a "fishing" move early game anyway). 

They do use fire punch tho. Just ask an AW member i have ever faced. Its usually not a good idea to just go into gengar vs a curselax. If a lax is cursing up and u go into metagross or something phyaically strong, if they do stay its a pretty safe assumption they are going to curse again. Thats when you go into gengar and begin ur song n dance.

 

Two other note worthy pokes are Swamert and Rhydon. Im not sure how well CB swampy fairs against Curselax but i know that the curse set can curse up along side lax and win 100% of the time bar too many parahaxs. And Rhydon both sub SD and CB sets can kill it.

Edited March 1, 2015 by codylramey

[londark]

Latelly i'm finding myself to use Donphan as a solid check to standard Laxes, with access to Encore, Counter, Roar, Superpower, a pretty cool physical bulk and ok offensive presence, it can pretty much check most Lax sets, except Double Edge CB variants

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 96-114 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

it obviously require some prediction, but generally, especially for the Curse set it works quite fine...

[Schematics]

ban curselax

[YagamiNoir]

I understand your points, but there are multiple pokemon that put the same amount of pressure on teams that Snorlax does. Gyarados and Heracross, in particular, are scary to the point where giving them an extra turn to set up can cost you the match, similar to how letting Snorlax Curse twice can cost you. Even Kingdra is pretty scary with a DD under its belt given its solid bulk and typing and if it manages to get to +2/+3 you're probably going to regret it. In most pokemon metagames there are non-Uber threats that can sweep given the right conditions and our current metagame sees the same thing with Snorlax. Remember that the Uber criteria is (essentially) that once a pokemon gets into play it can sweep with minimal prediction or skill, and while Curselax is easy to play, it's not like Tyranitar or Dragonite, who can sweep reliably and/or lack reliable checks.

 

Examples from 6th gen: Bisharp, M-Altaria, Lucario (UU), M-Pinsir, Talonflame, Clefable. If you mess up and somehow let one of these pokes boost on you or blast your wall with a full-power attack they can tear a serious hole in your team. Similar to Snorlax, effectively checking these pokes requires that you predict correctly, since all of them have the power to break a wide range of counters with a stat boost late game. This argument isn't extremely nuanced (obviously there are major differences between all of these pokes, the metas that they live in and Curselax) but it should give you a feel for one of the harshest facts of pokemon - sometimes one bad play costs you the match, like when you burn a Curselax with Weezing and it decides to boost to +2/3 and Rest off the damage (and you don't have haze).

 

Well, it's not. Given how Snorlax survives on a more defensive spectrum of play with it's Curse set, rather than an offensive one in comparison to any other offensively-based banworthy Pokemon you've mentioned, as much as it is a setup sweeper. The moment when you screw up against a Snorlax, is, personally, when you no longer have stuff to reliably 2HKO the thing, which is what most of my arguments had intended to prove. It's in my opinion different than offensive Pokemon that boost and kill; admittedly, though, Snorlax is not as threatening offensive wise and doesn't kill stuff until it nabs more greedy boosts or slowly uses it's uninvested +2 to 2HKO things. Thusly said, I put the more offensive side of Curselax lower than it's defensive side because aiming to kill stuff is usually not Snorlax's initial goal at Cursing that makes it the evil incarnate it is. I am aware that punishing setup Pokemon do exist through every competitive metagame, but I do think that Snorlax do go beyond the healthy zone (see below). Also consider the fact that we still have Heracross dangling between being spared or given the dreaded (or blessed) banhammer, unless you already know what's going to happen, which removes one significant offensive check to Snorlax. 

 

Tl;dr I find it defensively an unhealthy nuisance as a setup sweeper, rather than an offensive nuisance, which differs it from the offensive guys. 

 

'Tis a shame that the previous discussion was removed, but I did argue Snorlax when Dragonite was still around, although that was pre-Dragon Claw and the fact that it still had Superpower didn't really help 2HKO it if you were running 252/252+ (well, no one runs this, perhaps, but if they do run it, stuff don't 2HKO you).

 

Another point I'd like to make is that I kinda advocate in banning Snorlax as a whole instead of just it's Curselax set, provided that a complex ban is still unacceptable; one of my primary arguments back then hasn't wavered from my mindset, and that would be that threats that counter the Curselax set are ineffective against it's other sets, and vice versa. Admittedly, Snorlax's other sets aren't as banworthy as the Snorlax set, but they do play a role in adding Snorlax's diversity in that these sets do make it's usual checks and counters ineffective. In a  metagame that has evolved significantly in offense Snorlax itself has benefitted from many tools in it's kit. Fire Punch for instance now allows it to covers Steels while dealing some okay damage to Gengar which dissipates it's 4MSS slightly. Offensive checks that think a Snorlax response is going to Curse and the fact that they can survive one Body Slam get shrekt if they respond to a Choice Bander. Dugtrio doesn't trap a Whirlwind Lax. Depending on how the metagame revolves around Snorlax, well -- Snorlax can do the same. It's not a limited Pokemon, although people obviously go for the biggest buck aka Curselax. 

 

Of course, this doesn't compare with the fact that some Pokemon that you've mentioned achieve said centralization with only one set offensively, but I kinda do think that Snorlax fits this criteria with multiple of it's viable sets. It goes as far as to tempt me in saying that if we really need this thing to stick in the metagame because "essential Special tank/pivot", a complex ban would be necessary, as far as it does detract from my usual mentalities. 

 

All of this is probably in the OP, but I do emphasize the significance of it's other sets contributing to itself overall, instead of "Get Rid of Curselax." 

Edited March 1, 2015 by YagamiNoir