[Discussion] Snorlax (Test banned to Ubers from April 12th to May 11th)

[DoubleJ]

Ya I prefer a curselax ban over a generalized snorlax ban. Seems to have more support too.

[Shaniqualela]

The problem with complex bans is because there's a "line" like for example will we bring back salamence but not allow it to use dragon claw or dragon dance? Or will we allow tyranitar but only if it only uses special moves, etc.
I think it's silly but you never know what people will suggest

But yeah complex ban curse on snorlax pls.

[Vaeldras]

Ya I prefer a curselax ban over a generalized snorlax ban. Seems to have more support too.

Who would support a snorlax ban?
I mean, it's clearly not broken without curse (imho it's still not broken with curse, even though it's kinda centralizing).
I still don't understand what your opinions are on a curselax ban.
No one seems in favour of a snorlax ban, but who considers even curselax ok?

The problem with complex bans is because there's a "line" like for example will we bring back salamence but not allow it to use dragon claw or dragon dance? Or will we allow tyranitar but only if it only uses special moves, etc.
I think it's silly but you never know what people will suggest

But yeah complex ban curse on snorlax pls.

Ooooh, thanks, i understand now.
Yeh, having complex bans as an option everytime would start endless debatings and wall of texts.

"you never know what people will suggest"

Damn right, we already have enough drama. Edited March 5, 2015 by Noad
Please try not to double post :)

[jayfeatskydd]

If they didn't wipe the archive clean[spoiler]Geniuses[/spoiler] we'd be able to see these arguments are, for the most part, the same we had for the original curselax ban.

I'm all for a curselax ban and I've seen some pretty nice arguments in favors of this complex ban.

Let me be clear:

Complex bans are not an okay thing to do consistently, that doesn't mean we should never do them.

I don't wanna hear any of that "Hur dur okay then we can ban d-dance on t-tar and encore on Wobbufett and rest on suicune" shit.

Keep the slippery slope to yourself and take a good look at some of the arguments in this thread.

For once it did not burn my eyes to read through all these posts. Glad to see it.

I'll be patiently awaiting the rebuttal to the complex ban request.

Edited March 5, 2015 by jayfeatskydd

[Robofiend]

As much as I hate to be the bearer of bad news, the OU Tiering Council isn't down with the idea of complex banning Curse on Snorlax.

 

This shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, given that all of us have (at one point or another) stated we are against using complex bans when flat banning could do the trick. While Snorlax is a really troubling pokemon sometimes, we'd prefer to debate that people debate it on its merits rather than speculating about a ban that just isn't going to happen.

 

Why?

 

Most of the comp. community understands that complex bans do not fit with a holistic approach to tiering: they single out certain traits that a pokemon has (moves, abilities) and somewhat arbitrarily deem them ban worthy. While Curse in this case seems like a good choice, we could just as easily be arguing that Body Slam is really what makes Snorlax a threat and we should just ban that to prevent it from parahaxing you. As you all know, we have two main criteria for bans that we will continue to use:

 

"A pokemon is Uber if it can sweep a siginificant amount of the tier with little effort"

"A pokemon is Uber if it can wall a significant amount of the metagame with little effort"

 

If you think Snorlax meets one of these, argue for it. But don't think we're suddenly going to warm up to the idea of a Curselax ban. If you'd like further reasoning, I'll find the Senile rant thread that addresses why we don't complex ban moves on pokemon. 

 

The bottom line:

 

Snorlax is one of the most loved and hated pokemon we have, and this is the third time since I've been a part of this comp. community that it's been the center of a contentious tiering debate. There's really no easy way out on this one, as we've seen in the past that with and without Curse, Snorlax is massively centralizing and frequently "too good not to use". I'm tempted to let it stay in OU, but also recognize how centralizing Curselax is and find it troubling how few counters we actually have for it. However, our largely physical metagame gives it considerably fewer opportunities to switch in than it used to. Out of the A and S rank pokemon we currently have, Snorlax is only a reliable switch in against Jolteon and Porygon2, neither of whom are as common as Metagross, Gyarados or Heracross. While Snorlax is invaluable as a special wall, it can be mitigated by physically offensive teams, or balanced teams that use defensive tactics (Disable, Taunt, Perish Trapping, Destiny Bond, Growl, Roar, etc.) to beat it. 

[YagamiNoir]

As much as I hate to be the bearer of bad news, the OU Tiering Council isn't down with the idea of complex banning Curse on Snorlax.

 

This shouldn't come as too much of a surprise, given that all of us have (at one point or another) stated we are against using complex bans when flat banning could do the trick. While Snorlax is a really troubling pokemon sometimes, we'd prefer to debate that people debate it on its merits rather than speculating about a ban that just isn't going to happen.

 

Why?

 

Most of the comp. community understands that complex bans do not fit with a holistic approach to tiering: they single out certain traits that a pokemon has (moves, abilities) and somewhat arbitrarily deem them ban worthy. While Curse in this case seems like a good choice, we could just as easily be arguing that Body Slam is really what makes Snorlax a threat and we should just ban that to prevent it from parahaxing you. As you all know, we have two main criteria for bans that we will continue to use:

 

"A pokemon is Uber if it can sweep a siginificant amount of the tier with little effort"

"A pokemon is Uber if it can wall a significant amount of the metagame with little effort"

 

If you think Snorlax meets one of these, argue for it. But don't think we're suddenly going to warm up to the idea of a Curselax ban. If you'd like further reasoning, I'll find the Senile rant thread that addresses why we don't complex ban moves on pokemon. 

 

The bottom line:

 

Snorlax is one of the most loved and hated pokemon we have, and this is the third time since I've been a part of this comp. community that it's been the center of a contentious tiering debate. There's really no easy way out on this one, as we've seen in the past that with and without Curse, Snorlax is massively centralizing and frequently "too good not to use". I'm tempted to let it stay in OU, but also recognize how centralizing Curselax is and find it troubling how few counters we actually have for it. However, our largely physical metagame gives it considerably fewer opportunities to switch in than it used to. Out of the A and S rank pokemon we currently have, Snorlax is only a reliable switch in against Jolteon and Porygon2, neither of whom are as common as Metagross, Gyarados or Heracross. While Snorlax is invaluable as a special wall, it can be mitigated by physically offensive teams, or balanced teams that use defensive tactics (Disable, Taunt, Perish Trapping, Destiny Bond, Growl, Roar, etc.) to beat it. 

Well, fair enough, touche. 

 

It fits the second definition well -- that in of which it can easily wall a significant amount of the metagame after minor set up. The former doesn't really fit -- it's slow, and on a Curselax set, sweeping isn't as immediately threatening as of with that of Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Salamence. Snorlax usually needs a few (well, like +3-6) Curses before being enough to sweep with little effort, but the amount of Curse boosts it needs to attain an near-unbreakable form of defense and walling capability is minor as it is. It's other set, being Choice Band, may be powerful, but it's, Speed, again, is a big factor in which it's vulnerable to attacks before pulling off an Attack of it's own. 

 

The bolded statement does not solve the issue of what I argue for as a defensively centralizing Pokemon, significant as Snorlax's parahaxing abilities are. 

 

Tackling the issue of complex bans, though, I'm going to be a little biased and use a really dumb slippery slope here, although I'd say it's one that has it's relevance.When Curselax was initially banned (well, last year) the premise was that Snorlax was still an incredibly important pivot in the game, apart from Blissey, whom lacked adequate offensive presence and is more vulnerable to defensive tactics than Snorlax is. Snorlax is an important Special tank that holds not only it's exceptional special tanking capability with it's sheer 160/110 Special Defense but also powerful offense that allowed it to scare off or immediately use them for setup. I'd go as far as to say that Snorlax is the primary reason why there are little S and A Pokemon that are Special Attackers, since they are very vulnerable as being fodder to Snorlax, bar perhaps a few exceptions like Gardevoir. Beforehand, due to the importance of Snorlax in the metagame, Curse was banned instead of a whole ban, presuming it would avoid as much mistakes as possible. 

 

I think we all know how it's been argued (in either logically interpreted or in prejudiced, biased ways) that if Snorlax is gone, Blissey would be a necessity for every team to refrain from being mowed down by a Special Attacker. This not only centralizes the usage of Blissey but also makes Special Attackers far more rewarding due to the lack of the better Special Wall, which is, debatably -- more consequential that leaving Snorlax rampant around the meta. Hoenn has given little introduction to new means in counteracting against Special Attackers, so that doesn't really help much either. At this point, I'm on the fence about the relevance of this argument, but it would eventually be brought up anyway, as much as some people may think it's stupid. Has the metagame evolved to the point where a flat ban on Snorlax would be appropriate? I personally don't think so, but at the same time stick to the fact that complex bans should be refrained from whenever possible. But this is definitely something to take into consideration, given how this has been discussed many times and in hopes of avoiding as much consequence as possible.

 

Snorlax itself doesn't necessary contribute as solely a Special Wall even to a team where it can't utilize said ability very well. I've said before in the first page that I argue banning it as a whole under the premise that a complex ban cannot be compromised, which is, apparently, what we have now. Offensive-wise, Choice Band sets don't rip apart 3-4 Pokemon in a team, but Snorlax's power is definitely an undeniable one, especially with new buffs like Fire Punch and Pursuit. That and Selfdestruct also rips stuff like even Forretress, Skarmory and Metagross if it wants, and these are debatably Pokemon that want to come in on Snorlax, and Snorlax can just rip apart your opponent's significant physical pivot for allied physical attackers to run rampant. It's not a Magneton, but it can work, I guess. I've also argued in regards to physically Defensive Curselaxes and have made countless calculations from time to time to evidence it's effectiveness against physical threats, as much as it is rarely, if ever, a set that Curselax runs. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[codylramey]

Being the guy who is always for a sensable complex ban over a flat ban most of the time, with this new meta im not sure what we should do. I have argued heavily for complex bans in the past, when i was new to tiering and when i saw the tier coinsil mess up OU worse than it was b4 with their policies. One of the things that they did in the past was they got rid of too much of our physical power. That allowed walls, mainly vaporeon, to run rampid and become nearly unbreakable. But whos to say thats the case anymore. W/o the 2 drags, the dino, and lax in the past we didnt have enough physical power in the meta, but now with the split the physical power is one of the main forms of offense in the meta. And lax contribues a great deal to that. Stall seems to be dead too which isnt a sign of a healthy meta. So im going to go ahead and say if lax is deemed OP to flat ban him first. Ofc if this leads to many other bans, or messes up the meta in any way then we can bring him back and discuss a complex ban. Dont get me wrong i still beleieve in complex bans, and i disagree with a lot of what robo said (as if anyone would srsly argue for baning of Bslam over curse cmon. Still got return, and i think he even learns facade), I just dont see it as necessary in this meta right now.

[Gunthug]

Being the guy who is always for a sensable complex ban over a flat ban most of the time, with this new meta im not sure what we should do. I have argued heavily for complex bans in the past, when i was new to tiering and when i saw the tier coinsil mess up OU worse than it was b4 with their policies. One of the things that they did in the past was they got rid of too much of our physical power. That allowed walls, mainly vaporeon, to run rampid and become nearly unbreakable. But whos to say thats the case anymore. W/o the 2 drags, the dino, and lax in the past we didnt have enough physical power in the meta, but now with the split the physical power is one of the main forms of offense in the meta. And lax contribues a great deal to that. Stall seems to be dead too which isnt a sign of a healthy meta. So im going to go ahead and say if lax is deemed OP to flat ban him first. Ofc if this leads to many other bans, or messes up the meta in any way then we can bring him back and discuss a complex ban. Dont get me wrong i still beleieve in complex bans, and i disagree with a lot of what robo said (as if anyone would srsly argue for baning of Bslam over curse cmon. Still got return, and i think he even learns facade), I just dont see it as necessary in this meta right now.

Well said, Cody. I think there's a huge difference between the meta back when Curselax got complex banned, and the meta we have now. In fact, there were sort of extraordinary circumstances that allowed for a complex ban of curse in the past - special attackers ruled the meta, in that failure to bring a snorlax/blissey usually resulted in a starmie/jolteon sweep. In addition, choice band was on the horizon, along with the understanding that curselax would be unbanned when it hit (it was, even though snorlax was flat banned shortly after).

 

Now, circumstances are different - the meta is physically centered, and as Cody pointed out, snorlax is one of the physical behemoths responsible for this. I don't think we're in a situation anymore where losing snorlax would cause the meta to crumble beneath us - which begs the question: if we were to ban curse on snorlax, what would stop us from going back and complex banning everything that's already been banned? There isn't really a case anymore that snorlax is "special."

 

This, imo, is a really difficult position though. In fact, I've been writing out this response and erasing it repeatedly over the last few days in an attempt to accurately articulate my position. We're at a point right now where, if you just step back and take a look at things, it's pretty clear: banning curse on snorlax would simply lead to a healthier meta. However, we can't lose sight of the big picture, and part of that is consistency of decisions.

 

For now, I think more discussion on the fatass is warranted, with an understanding that a complex ban should only be considered after all other possible options are exhausted

[Robofiend]

Well said, Cody. I think there's a huge difference between the meta back when Curselax got complex banned, and the meta we have now. In fact, there were sort of extraordinary circumstances that allowed for a complex ban of curse in the past - special attackers ruled the meta, in that failure to bring a snorlax/blissey usually resulted in a starmie/jolteon sweep. 

 

Part of the reason special attackers like Starmie don't still rule the meta is because of things like Pursuit Snorlax absolutely rekting it

 

Regardless, it really warms my heart to see Cody opposing a complex ban.

[NikhilR]

Part of the reason special attackers like Starmie don't still rule the meta is because of things like Pursuit Snorlax absolutely rekting it

 

Regardless, it really warms my heart to see Cody opposing a complex ban.

 

Starmie doesn't rule the meta nowadays because of how physically offensive the meta has become. It's got nothing to do with the fear of pursuit lax because in that case people would stop running almost anything which had the likelihood of being trapped. There will always be new special walls like ludicolo, blissey, porygon, hypno (maybe) etc. to take up it's place when it comes to walling.

 

I'm all for a flat ban on it.

[codylramey]

Regardless, it really warms my heart to see Cody opposing a complex ban.

Plz if the meta wasnt crawing with physical attackers already id be all aboard the complex ban train.

 

A for snorlax itself I deff do believe that it is centralizing in the meta. Like i said b4 i felt crippled w/o him while trying to run bliss. Can he sweep or wall a good portion of the meta with ease? Not rly. But with snorlax he can do both so effectivly that it does seem like he is OP. He fills the roles of wall, attacker, and is very often a win condition for many teams. Not only that his counters can only switch into him with 70% certianty they arent gonna get para raped. Sure machamp can switch in and kill him IF there is no para. I wouldnt mind seeing a ban on him tested out, as long as the tier counsil would be open minded to brining him back if shit hits the fan.

 

Edit: Just beat kanzol and Yangsam ONLY bc of curselax. Does that make it too powerful?

Edited March 7, 2015 by codylramey

[Robofiend]

welp Snorlax usage is at 60% now.. to ban or not to ban?

[Kiliminati]

welp Snorlax usage is at 60% now.. to ban or not to ban?

If you ban it, I won't be able to entertain myself any further with reading some of the posts in this thread

[spoiler]think about the kili[/spoiler]

[BurntZebra]

welp Snorlax usage is at 60% now.. to ban or not to ban?

wasn't snorlax usage unofficially at 85% before? (I think in season 1 of psl usage statistics, albeit a bit different from the official statistics). I don't think usage really has a direct correlation with the banworthyness of a pokemon. If I was Senile, I would give some example of some pokemon in gen 4-6 that had very high usage but was actually healthy for the meta and kept it balanced, but alas I am not so I don't have that example

[Senile]

wasn't snorlax usage unofficially at 85% before? (I think in season 1 of psl usage statistics, albeit a bit different from the official statistics). I don't think usage really has a direct correlation with the banworthyness of a pokemon. If I was Senile, I would give some example of some pokemon in gen 4-6 that had very high usage but was actually healthy for the meta and kept it balanced, but alas I am not so I don't have that example

Something something gen 4/5 scizor.

[DoubleJ]

Ban Curselax please

 

EDIT: Complex bans #1 in this instance

Edited March 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[fredrichnietze]

well me and jj just fought in a OU spont. nearly everyone used lax. the winner and semi finalist didnt bring one. http://challonge.com/rigaspont2. lax is good but it's not unbeatable and there are quiet a few checks and counters to each set. while there are few counters to EVERY set at the same time, the same can be said of gar, bliss, nidoking, and just about every A-S class. imo snor is top of the tier but i have seen so many people beat lax in a billion different ways that i just dont see snor as ban worthy like it appears on paper. just my 2 cents here

[Bestfriendss]

welp Snorlax usage is at 60% now.. to ban or not to ban?

 

I know I haven't been on MMO for quite a while due to college, but based on what the competitive community is saying in these posts, I feel that a Lax ban should be considered. Curselax is broken, and we do not want the meta to be focused on CurseLax. I noticed that all we are talking about is Lax, lax, lax, and more lax. In my opinion, it is broken, so a ban might be necessary.

 

 

If you ban it, I won't be able to entertain myself any further with reading some of the posts in this thread

[spoiler]think about the kili[/spoiler]

 

If you are so entertained by reading these posts, why don't you consider reading a Breloom post or a Dragonite post. You don't have to be focused just on Lax.

[BurntZebra]

I pity the fool who gets swept by curselax

 

[DestructX]

I pity the fool who gets swept by curselax

 

>not SnorlaxX

>rookie snorlax

[Vaeldras]

I pity the fool who gets swept by curselax

 

 

Just when i was thinking "did they forget about curselax?" kek.

 

Well, i have to say this thing is way more dangerous than i thought.

Dunno, there are really many ways to check it, even with my team which is COMPLETELY unprepared for it, i always managed to stop it somehow.

 

I'd also like to point out that we can't really consider body slam to be the problem in case of a complex ban, since snorlax can easily use return instead of that (not as good, but it wouldn't really make that much of a difference) or even double edge.

Every single move in the curselax set (besides rest maybe) is completely replaceable, even crunch/pursuit (disable gengar/dusclops could be a pain though).

 

Edit: No, rest has to be there no matter what.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Vaeldras

[codylramey]

sooo was that a twave growl bliss?

[DrCraig]

Looks like everybody ran Snorlax again.

[Vaeldras]

Looks like everybody ran curselax again.

 

ftfy

[XPLOZ]

My final comment :

 

Again in the oceanic tourney, lax is in almost each team.

It's almost ridiculous to see how easily can lax come in during a battle. In fact, specially sweepers can't threaten enough in this meta. I mean, there isn't any choice spec, or moves like focus blast, which can disturb an incoming lax. In our metagame, this isn't the only problem. The other problem is that, while specially sweepers didn't won anything with the update, lax won other deadly options. First, fire punch, which can hurt steel types who were a lot safer before. Secondly, pursuit, which can, on a CB set, punish hard weak special sweepers like starmie or jolt. Moreover, lax didn't lose anything. While losing shadow ball he just won crunch. Wait, that's not all, lax won WW, so an other way to play it, which is quite deadly with spikes ingame.

So we have a lax who won possibilities, while special sweepers didn't won anything and have a lot of difficulties to face it.

Add to this the very punishing Body slam, which offers a good stab and para here and there everyting. As lax comes extremly often in, you have many opportunites to Body slam. Add also an earthquake, which offers a bit more coverage and which can be a good surprise sometimes (mainly to face rhydon who could be one of the best counters).

 

So we have here 4 main possibilites to play lax :

-Classic tank

-Curser

-WW user (+ often sleep talk)

-Choice bander

 

Maybe the deadliest option in most cases is the Curser one, like we said in this thread. You have some possibilities to avoid him from setting-up, but this is often punishing.That's maybe why almost everyone is playing lax. Phaze it ? A vapoeron, a Swampert or a Skarmony, which are common and good phazers each take a big hit (from body slam or fire punch) before phazing lax and also take the risk to bring something they don't want on the field. Haze it ? If only we had many viable haze users, but i mainly see weezing here...

 

In my opinion, lax is clearly disturbing our metagame. He just ruins the specially offensive aspect. You can see it in tourneys, people bring a lot of physical sweepers, a lax to take specially hits, and they can always keep pressure on the opponent's team.

 

For all those reasons, lax desserves a ban, even if some people are defending it because they play it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by XPLOZ