[Discussion] Snorlax (Test banned to Ubers from April 12th to May 11th)

[Pedrr]

ban curselax

yeah that was good

[codylramey]

Starting playing around with bliss instead of lax today. I actually felt like i was playing with a handycap bc of not having lax. When i have lax in i knw im gonna hit something hardish or have a chance of para. It is actually semi punishing to let a lax gett in. Where as blissey cant really do much once shes in. Its like yea you have her in but so what.

[Robofiend]

Starting playing around with bliss instead of lax today. I actually felt like i was playing with a handycap bc of not having lax. When i have lax in i knw im gonna hit something hardish or have a chance of para. It is actually semi punishing to let a lax gett in. Where as blissey cant really do much once shes in. Its like yea you have her in but so what.

 

Bliss can work but you need to build a team around it. Counter Bliss is massively underrated imo.

 

But of course it's shit compared to Snorlax

Edited March 2, 2015 by Robofiend

[Shaniqualela]

Starting playing around with bliss instead of lax today. I actually felt like i was playing with a handycap bc of not having lax. When i have lax in i knw im gonna hit something hardish or have a chance of para. It is actually semi punishing to let a lax gett in. Where as blissey cant really do much once shes in. Its like yea you have her in but so what.

Blissey is only good for countering one thing and then dying, or spreading twaves/aromatherapy

Sure blissey forces out special attackers, but a bulky choice bander is going to come in and kill it or hit something else hard while blissey basically did nothing

[codylramey]

But of course it's shit compared to Snorlax

 

 

Sure blissey forces out special attackers, but a bulky choice bander is going to come in and kill it or hit something else hard while blissey basically did nothing

exactly. It really says somethin about our meta that we are so heavily dependent on one pokeman. even if someone runs ludi, clopse, or umbreon theres usuall the mandatory fat guy in the background.

[XPLOZ]

Comparing Blissey to Snorlax...

Blissey is mainly played for her supporting moves whereas Snorlax runs mainly offensive moves (except whirlwind). Of course the offensive presence of lax with this huge body slhax can help a team, but the supporting moves of Blissey are needed to make a very viable team. This comparaison to say that lax should be banned is kind of stupid.

 

Here is the real problem : this metagame semi 4G semi 3G is not balanced. Special attackers don't have things like Focus blast, Choice spec... to threaten an incoming lax while this fat boy won some more coverage with the physical/special split of 4G. Then, he can come in game really easily.

Moreover, he won a punishing pursuit, which can destroy weak special attackers.

Add to all of this Curselax, and this is a big threat. But curselax alone isn't that OP. Just run supporting moves, and you will be able to deal with it (I agree it will be more difficult if snorlax is the last pokemon ingame...).

 

Something OP is Magneton + Curselax. This is like a noob strategy, quite simple to establish, uncompetitive, and very punishing. (Ban those shits of ability trappers instead of making Spikes threads)

Edited March 2, 2015 by XPLOZ

[NikhilR]

Something OP is Magneton + Curselax. This is like a noob strategy, quite simple to establish, uncompetitive, and very punishing. (Ban those shits of ability trappers instead of making Spikes threads)

 

Some snorlaxes carry Fire Punch nowadays, so skarmory/fort aren't an effective way of dealing with curselaxes.

 

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Imo curselax is just op, if you're not running a metagross/rhydon then you're most likely going to get rekt. Forretress won't be able to do anything to an immunity curselax that is setting up. Skarmory will take up dmg while trying to phase it out but once lax is the last pokemon, this will be a problem. With metagross, it's a more difficult situation if you're not carrying choice band and the lax is carrying fire punch. This makes Rhydon the one and only true counter. Weezing gets hit on the switch in and chances are that it gets paralyzed. This has been seen several times and with it's lack of offensive presence it doesn't make weezing a counter either. Dusclops with haze is a nice way of dealing with curselax carrying fire punch instead of crunch. Sub disable gengars are quite nice but they don't technically force the lax to switch out so ultimately it could just lead to a pp stall. 

 

It's true that if you're running a very hyper offensive team, then that limits the chances of lax to come in. But not everyone should be forced to run a particular form of playstyle to deal with a particular pokemon.

[DoubleJ]

Some snorlaxes carry Fire Punch nowadays, so skarmory/fort aren't an effective way of dealing with curselaxes.

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Imo curselax is just op, if you're not running a metagross/rhydon then you're most likely going to get rekt. Forretress won't be able to do anything to an immunity curselax that is setting up. Skarmory will take up dmg while trying to phase it out but once lax is the last pokemon, this will be a problem. With metagross, it's a more difficult situation if you're not carrying choice band and the lax is carrying fire punch. This makes Rhydon the one and only true counter. Weezing gets hit on the switch in and chances are that it gets paralyzed. This has been seen several times and with it's lack of offensive presence it doesn't make weezing a counter either. Dusclops with haze is a nice way of dealing with curselax carrying fire punch instead of crunch. Sub disable gengars are quite nice but they don't technically force the lax to switch out so ultimately it could just lead to a pp stall.

It's true that if you're running a very hyper offensive team, then that limits the chances of lax to come in. But not everyone should be forced to run a particular form of playstyle to deal with a particular pokemon.

But what are your thoughts on a ban or complex ban of curse lax?

[NikhilR]

But what are your thoughts on a ban or complex ban of curse lax?

 

Snorlax on it's own isn't that op imo and hence cannot sweep. So it isn't banworthy. But I know that the council is against complex bans, so I wouldn't "mind" lax being banned.

[DoubleJ]

Snorlax on it's own isn't that op imo and hence cannot sweep. So it isn't banworthy. But I know that the council is against complex bans, so I wouldn't "mind" lax being banned.

So you would prefer a curselax ban? I'm all for that. +2 without a phaser and you're screwed. And to incorporate a phaser that can take a +2 slam into team building is almost a significant sacrifice. Edited March 2, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Vaeldras]

This needs more calcs.

 

Was thinking about  Will o wisp - haze - disable - pain split  dusclops, or maybe weezing.

You can easily send it predicting a curse, and then will o wisp (you will outspeed it, since -1 speed).

Then you can just haze or disable crunch, and maybe heal with pain split.

 

Dusclops is also immune to bslam, so you should be a lil bit safer on the switch.

 

Not sure if gengar could do the same, should run some calcs.

Then again, heracross.

Can anyone please explain me why we don't complex ban stuff again? anything wrong with it besides having a confusing ban list?

[NikhilR]

So you would prefer a curselax ban? I'm all for that. +2 without a phaser and you're screwed. And to incorporate a phaser that can take a +2 slam into team building is almost a significant sacrifice.

 

Yup.

 

Was thinking about  Will o wisp - haze - disable - pain split  dusclops, or maybe weezing.

You can easily send it predicting a curse, and then will o wisp (you will outspeed it, since -1 speed).

Then you can just haze or disable crunch, and maybe heal with pain split.

 

 

The thing is, haze is only useful for Snorlax. When it comes to other status boosting pokemon, dusclops is slower so having haze doesn't make the slightest of difference since it'll most likely get killed while trying to haze.

[fredrichnietze]

And here we have the fat whale that everybody loves

thats not a wailord?

 

on a srs note, i would like to point out how badly encore fucks up curselax. for those who are unfamiliar, encore forces a pokemon to use the same move for 3 turns straight. because encore's effects end at the end of of the round of combat, and not at the begining of the encore'd pokemons turn, you can encore consecutively. this means anything that switches in on a curse can outspeed and force lax to curse away all it's curse pp. in the meantime you can kill it by any means you wish. my favorite strat is with a twave + encore + seismic toss clefable. however there are many pokemon that learn encore:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Encore_%28move%29

 

Yup.

 

 

The thing is, haze is only useful for Snorlax. When it comes to other status boosting pokemon, dusclops is slower so having haze doesn't make the slightest of difference since it'll most likely get killed while trying to haze.

haze is normal priority and curse lowers the speed of the users so dusk can haze away the curse boost thou it has to tank 2x hits at +/-0 b4 it can wow.

[Vaeldras]

Yup.

 

 

The thing is, haze is only useful for Snorlax. When it comes to other status boosting pokemon, dusclops is slower so having haze doesn't make the slightest of difference since it'll most likely get killed while trying to haze.

 

Well, maybe against a rampaging heracross, an ursaring without crunch, or a metagross (unless you have the moveset to directly counter it, since dusclops can stop it quite easily).

I'm not really a fan of haze, so i don't have any other possible use for it in mind, but uncommon situations might still happen.

It's not as gimmick as quick attack for reversal users imo.

And dusclops can still be useful with only 3 moves (kinda, i'd have to try it :P ).

[BurntZebra]

Well, maybe against a rampaging heracross, an ursaring without crunch, or a metagross (unless you have the moveset to directly counter it, since dusclops can stop it quite easily).

I'm not really a fan of haze, so i don't have any other possible use for it in mind, but uncommon situations might still happen.

It's not as gimmick as quick attack for reversal users imo.

And dusclops can still be useful with only 3 moves (kinda, i'd have to try it :P ).

dont forget quick attack is for flail users also

[NikhilR]

haze is normal priority and curse lowers the speed of the users so dusk can haze away the curse boost thou it has to tank 2x hits at +/-0 b4 it can wow.

 

We're talking about the possibility of snorlax running firepunch over crunch. Only in those circumstances can Dusclops be considered as a viable switch in, because otherwise crunch could even lead to -def drop also. 

[BurntZebra]

We're talking about the possibility of snorlax running firepunch over crunch. Only in those circumstances can Dusclops be considered as a viable switch in, because otherwise crunch could even lead to -def drop also. 

haze eliminates the -def drop 

check mate

[NikhilR]

haze eliminates the -def drop 

check mate

 

Dusc switch into crunch -->  def drop. Snorlax crunches, ggnore Dusc (obvs dusc user will switch out but can't switch in again onto a lax)

[Vaeldras]

Dusc switch into crunch -->  def drop. Snorlax crunches, ggnore Dusc (obvs dusc user will switch out but can't switch in again onto a lax)

 

Thought the same, then i ran some calcs and

 

0+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 82-98 (28.8 - 34.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Not really. haze, pain split.

Besides, i found out that my dusclops (31 ivs 44 evs) can outspeed even a regular snorlax.

Unless you're fighting against a speed fetishist like forfie, you'd need more speed.

Yeh, scouted.

 

Edit: mfw no 252 defense doe. can still do it quite easily.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Vaeldras

[fredrichnietze]

Dusc switch into crunch -->  def drop. Snorlax crunches, ggnore Dusc (obvs dusc user will switch out but can't switch in again onto a lax)

if non +att nature and all ev's in the defs

0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 40-48 (27.2 - 32.6%) -- 57.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 60-72 (40.8 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 60-72 (40.8 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

if 252 att adamant

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 56-66 (38 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 80-96 (54.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 82-98 (55.7 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

so dusk would live unless you are talking about major investment + att nature and predicting the switch and using crunch and getting the 30% - def drop, at which point is that really relevant? 

 

[Vaeldras]

I see you guys are finally starting to understand what the most op ph wall is.

[NikhilR]

Well the ev spread could always be tilted to make it look like dusc is ideal in almost every situation.

 

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 72-86 (48.9 - 58.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For the record, I do run a 252 attk+ snorlax, hence the reason why I do my calcs using that. 

[fredrichnietze]

 

Well the ev spread could always be tilted to make it look like dusc is ideal in almost every situation.

 

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 72-86 (48.9 - 58.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For the record, I do run a 252 attk+ snorlax, hence the reason why I do my calcs using that. 

 

why would you not run a max def dusk if you are using it to counter snor? also you lax dies to starm/jolt/kingdra/ect.... when you rest.

[Vaeldras]

 

Well the ev spread could always be tilted to make it look like dusc is ideal in almost every situation.

 

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dusclops: 72-86 (48.9 - 58.5%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For the record, I do run a 252 attk+ snorlax, hence the reason why I do my calcs using that. 

 

 

I only use impish duscs, possibly with 252 hp and def.

It does wonders against the most threatening ph attackers (except gyara, that will usually rek me).

 

Edit: Fred, do some calcs with weezing  :)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Vaeldras

[NikhilR]

why would you not run a max def dusk if you are using it to counter snor? also you lax dies to starm/jolt/kingdra/ect.... when you rest.

 

For a fire punch lax, you don't need 252hp/def dusclops. The whole purpose of wow at times is to help with the attk drop. Also if you want to use dusclops as a spin blocker, 252hp/spdef is the better choice.

 

Um my snorlax hasn't died to starm (modest) / jolt upon rest. It's got a small chance of 4hkoing with lefties and I'm left with almost 80 after leftovers recovery which is sufficient amount of health to rest again vs any other spaker (assuming I kill the special attacker upon waking up)

 

Vs Rain Dancers, yeah the spread is a problem,