[UU Discussion] Magmar (Remains UU)

[YagamiNoir]

Oh, for bloody oblivion's sake, I can't even take a break during exam periods. We'll clean this mess up soon, though. 

Linoone had very few counters? Please. Steelix, Aggron, Omastar, Haunter. Offense had no answers for it? Wtf are CB Aggron and Haunter then? Walls? Lol. Most bulky water types like Cloyster and Walrein even survive +6 Espeed which make sure that Linoone cannot sweep wall teams. Please mention some valid counters to Magmar other than Quagsire.

 

I would like to see how Linoone breaks a wall style with steelix and haunter in the same if you feel that magmar can't break it. Linoone has lesser spdef bulk than Magmar thus making it weaker to most special attacks. Less counters again, I laugh at that. I didn't realize not having to use salac berry gives Linoone instant advantage over Magmar. Wow. 

 

I can't believe how you're using the revenge killing argument for keeping magmar because the truth is that its offensive power is capable of finishing any pokemon off. Judging from this, why don't we unban Scizor seeing as how it can be revenge killed by so many things?

 

Why the fuck does priority matter in this situation? Priority matters to beat priority . Otherwise if you're faster you can finish it off with a move. 

 

Yeah as I thought so, your definition of stall is clearly gen4+, so for now, my definition of stall is the definition of stall in Pokemmo. 

 

You clearly haven't seen me enough if you haven't seen me run various playstyles. I think my box is pretty big seeing as how I've got to where I am right now.

 

Again you mention Quagsire as the only and true valid counter / switch in to Magmar. So having Quagsire on multiple teams makes it okay? It's the same bs argument about having Scizor in UU when Slowking was around a lot because that was the only true counter. What do you want me to do vs a Magmar then? Lets not forget 252 speed Jolly Magmar is faster than Hitmonlee which makes Mach Punch useless. So basically you have no way of knowing what spread the opposing Magmar is since you conveniently decided to do nothing about it, which means your CB Lee is dead.

 

Crobat, Fast Tentacruel, Wish/Screen Xatu are viable for stall playstyle? No shit, because last time I checked so was Omastar, Steelix, Walrein and Aggron if you prefer offensive to beat Linoone. Also I lol'd at Crobat switching in on +6 Magmar. 

 

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 66-78 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

GG your revenge killer. The only way this would work is if you run haze. But :

 

252+ Atk Magmar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 92-110 (57.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

So I'll just wait for another time to come back in and bdrum but I might need support for that. Assuming that your initial argument didn't have haze why don't I run Tentacruel also to stop Magmar? It's not that hard for a salac reliant pokemon to come in again. If you switch it in on a predicted hit and if they are bulky after bdrum, then the hit leaves them at salac range assuming you just watched it go to +6 while doing nothing. 

 

Yeah no one runs fake out on Kanga since ppl like coverage so they go for return / crunch / fire or eq with rest. Defensive Kangas would run wish/protect. But hey let me sack my coverage or support for Magmar. Also if you mention Fake Out has other uses such as to beat flail/reversal-ers, then endure. Also let me just say that running EQ or wish/protect combo is always more beneficial than running fake out.

 

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious about using Impish Granbull. Golem could be more viable with bdrum magmar around? No fucking way because lets bring back Linoone since that would make Aggron more viable.

 

If you're not using a bulky water type, steelix or at least a fast bulky Misd in your team then I don't know what kind of stall people were running back when Linoone was around.

 

I'm pretty sure Scizor also made a lot of pokemon like Manectric, Zangoose, Kangaskhan, Xatu. Crobat way more viable as it encouraged to run fire moves or revenge kill it, so please Think, cut the crap about how running one pokemon made another viable as an argument to keep something broken in. Lets bring back Linoone if you're so keen on breaking Vileplume and reducing that 50% usage. But it looks like you have trouble beating Vileplume without using a bellydrummer, may be if your box was big then you could think of other ways of beating it.

 

Thanks but I don't use a core of Clefable, Hypno and Vileplume all in the same team. Hell I even sold my wish hypno quite some time back so you won't even be seeing me run one in a while. This is clearly obvious since I'm sure you've only watched some of my matches in the previous meta and none that has happened as of late.

 

Also I like how you mention not to hit it if you fear salac because it is sub drum and if I don't hit it. then it will definitely go into salac range. So then your tentacruel+crobat+xatu becomes useless. But wait, let's run priority+tenta/cro/xatu to beat Magmar. So the situation I see is:

 

1) Hit Magmar which either result it in not bdrumming or it gets bdrum with salac+mach (deadliest combo)

2) Don't hit it and sack whatever is on field because we got tentacruel and crobat to the rescue.

 

And assuming we activate the deadliest combo, let's also run Quagsire because of how so viable it is to stop the shitstorm. 

 

Wow some choice I got!

*sighs in slow motion*

 

What are you not getting here? You're bad at making comparisons. What's next on the list, Poliwrath? Walrein? "ZOMG a Belly Drum Pokemon too stronk let's get it out of here!" Linoone was banned because of the combo of Belly Drum and ExtremeSpeed, that allowed it to run fairly minimal speed investment bar against things like say Haunter and the like, and I'd pull this out of my hat because "oh Ghosts aren't legit anymore due to Pursuit!" "Offense had no answers to it?" To be fair, Magmar can still be outsped and revenge killed depending on your set, although I'll just factor Salac Berry this time which is again vulnerable to stuff like Hitmonlee Mach Punches and the like. You point out bulky and speedy sets with either Salac Berry or Sitrus Berry, but saying that Magmar without a speed boost is a banworthy sweeper is plain wrong (oh I forgot perhaps most of your team composition consists of things that are slower than it), whereas Sub/Salac sets allow you to opt for only one coverage move, meaning stuff like Lanturn and the like can still take a hit and wreck it (I'll assume the Speed boost means you won't run Mach Punch). Fire Punch/Mach Punch cores are practically walled by any reasonably bulky Water, whereas sets without it can be stopped with stuff like Golem and Lanturn. And apparently your Magmar always gets the favourable situations -- again. 

 

And here's another thing -- apart from significantly less safe sweeping capability, unlike Linoone, Magmar has more risks setting up Belly Drum and has a bigger case of 4MSS. You don't outpace anything until you get that Salac Boost, so you'll need at least two turns if you have Substitute, in which you then lose coverage. Don't pretend setting up Belly Drum is that safe for you if you lack Sub, either. Faster offensive Pokemon like Tentacruel/Manectric/anything beyond the 93 mark can come in and revenge kill it at 50% health as they switch in on your Belly Drum. Sitrus Berry? Not gonna go there, that's more vulnerable than Salac is and doesn't change how it's either vulnerable to being killed or being outsped depending on the item. Linoone however could not be revenge killed/outpredicted on a Belly Drum turn through offense, because ExtremeSpeed would cut through anything faster. Wordplay again? The only really way Linoone could be "countered" in UU was through the very little reliable resists the metagame had. Priority didn't help, Ghosts were possibly outsped and killed, and even Flail variants can break through certain Rock types sometimes.

 

If you want something that can take on a setup Magmar, which again relates to how ridiculous your demands of a "counter" are, only Quagsire honestly fits in there. I can safely say the council has no intention of banning this thing any time soon.

[Robofiend]

First things last: all this speculation about Salac is just.. bad. Magmar has to rely on Sub/Endure to get the boost reliably and in doing so loses a coverage move. Fire/Electric is solid coverage (why run priority on your Salac poke?), but it's just not fair to be like "yeah yeah well what if it has endure?" and then ignore the fact that Endure variants (if they existed) would be even bigger targets for priority (who uses Salac+priority, again?) from Hitmonlee, Gligar, Pikachu, Hitmontop (still convinced this thing will see the light of day, someday), and a number of other UU pokemon that could *adapt* to Magmar's presence if it's good at doing what it does.

 

Next: enough with the Linoone comparisons. You're comparing apples to fucking watermelons here, 80 BP STAB with +2 Priority AND +6 Atk just isn't the same as 40 BP non-stab with +1 Priority and +6 attack. One is obviously way superior, and while the technique is the same (get a clean drum off and sweep) it's a bit harder to pull off when you're weak to attack types from common walls, and don't check every priority user in the game by out-prioritying them to death. We all know that the only viable counters to Linoone (Haunter, Misdreavus) are practically NU and the only reason for them to even exist would be to check Linoone - whereas a number of totally normal pokemon exist to check some variant of Magmar.

 

As far as Kangaskhan & others go: the UU metagame has been totally stagnant, and Magmar will likely be one of those pokes that can force change because of how bad it punishes you for running the best pokemon out there. Forcing Kangaskhan to run an offensive set or making Steelix/Vileplume less viable are good things for a diverse metagame - suddenly it's just not as easy as slapping together a really tight core and murking everyone. Maybe you will have to use Quagsire or Altaria, but that's way better then banning everything that slighly disrupts the stagnation that comes from having few viable offensive threats.

[NikhilR]

Oh, for bloody oblivion's sake, I can't even take a break during exam periods. We'll clean this mess up soon, though. 

*sighs in slow motion*

 

What are you not getting here? You're bad at making comparisons. What's next on the list, Poliwrath? Walrein? "ZOMG a Belly Drum Pokemon too stronk let's get it out of here!" Linoone was banned because of the combo of Belly Drum and ExtremeSpeed, that allowed it to run fairly minimal speed investment bar against things like say Haunter and the like, and I'd pull this out of my hat because "oh Ghosts aren't legit anymore due to Pursuit!" "Offense had no answers to it?" To be fair, Magmar can still be outsped and revenge killed depending on your set, although I'll just factor Salac Berry this time which is again vulnerable to stuff like Hitmonlee Mach Punches and the like. You point out bulky and speedy sets with either Salac Berry or Sitrus Berry, but saying that Magmar without a speed boost is a banworthy sweeper is plain wrong (oh I forgot perhaps most of your team composition consists of things that are slower than it), whereas Sub/Salac sets allow you to opt for only one coverage move, meaning stuff like Lanturn and the like can still take a hit and wreck it (I'll assume the Speed boost means you won't run Mach Punch). Fire Punch/Mach Punch cores are practically walled by any reasonably bulky Water, whereas sets without it can be stopped with stuff like Golem and Lanturn. And apparently your Magmar always gets the favourable situations -- again. 

 

And here's another thing -- apart from significantly less safe sweeping capability, unlike Linoone, Magmar has more risks setting up Belly Drum and has a bigger case of 4MSS. You don't outpace anything until you get that Salac Boost, so you'll need at least two turns if you have Substitute, in which you then lose coverage. Don't pretend setting up Belly Drum is that safe for you if you lack Sub, either. Faster offensive Pokemon like Tentacruel/Manectric/anything beyond the 93 mark can come in and revenge kill it at 50% health as they switch in on your Belly Drum. Sitrus Berry? Not gonna go there, that's more vulnerable than Salac is and doesn't change how it's either vulnerable to being killed or being outsped depending on the item. Linoone however could not be revenge killed/outpredicted on a Belly Drum turn through offense, because ExtremeSpeed would cut through anything faster. Wordplay again? The only really way Linoone could be "countered" in UU was through the very little reliable resists the metagame had. Priority didn't help, Ghosts were possibly outsped and killed, and even Flail variants can break through certain Rock types sometimes.

 

If you want something that can take on a setup Magmar, which again relates to how ridiculous your demands of a "counter" are, only Quagsire honestly fits in there. I can safely say the council has no intention of banning this thing any time soon.

 

You're acting like Magmar doesn't have priority, something that other bellydrummers don't have. Also again please tell me why Linoone is banned? I swear you guys are hysterical about Linoone and its espeed because last time I checked normal type moves are not super effective against anything and there are pokemon types that resist it 4x, 2x and are immune to it. Whereas Magmar has a very good coverage. And last time I checked. Haunter wasn't the only ghost in UU. 

 

I'm not just pointing out bulky/speedy sets because the fact is that you have no way of knowing the set is. You conveniently want to sit back and do nothing because you fear salac. If you fear salac and it is bellydrum then it is ggnore. Again the point is that you're unaware of what the spread is and that can punish you. Whereas Linoone runs your standard set. 

 

What do you mean by unlike Linoone? Linoone can't touch speedy haunter/misdreavus/aggron or break through steelix/omastar. Also lets encourage the use of Espeed Pikachu while we're at it so that we can bring back Linoone. That is 4 offensive pokemon I count to beat Linoone.

 

Magmar can be revenge killed? Well so can Scizor, Machamp, Marowak etc. so lets bring them back as well. 

 

Again. Linoone had very little reliable resists? Omastar, Steelix, Aggron, Haunter, Misdreavus, sometimes I think y'all are blind. Ghosts were possibly outsped? May be but if you let Linoone hang around in UU longer, we would see more offensive haunters/misdreavuses. Flail types breaking through rock types? It breaks through Golem but by that logic, Magmar breaks through Omastar. 

 

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 156-183 (88.1 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 137-162 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

They survive the hits and ko back. 

 

And I am sure the council has no plans of banning Magmar any time soon because the council is very well famous for keeping broken pokemon in the tier for quite a long time. 

 

 

Lel Nik. I'm done but ypu are not going to change so I won't bother replying to it.

Edit: actually read your whole comment and now you are comparing Magmar to Scizor. Go home Nik you're drunk. >gen4+ stall 'im talking pokemmo stall'. Its like... Wow... Its like playstyles cant evolve???

 

 

Sorry if I am being very stubborn and I understand you don't want to reply because neither of us will change our pov.

 

 

First things last: all this speculation about Salac is just.. bad. Magmar has to rely on Sub/Endure to get the boost reliably and in doing so loses a coverage move. Fire/Electric is solid coverage (why run priority on your Salac poke?), but it's just not fair to be like "yeah yeah well what if it has endure?" and then ignore the fact that Endure variants (if they existed) would be even bigger targets for priority (who uses Salac+priority, again?) from Hitmonlee, Gligar, Pikachu, Hitmontop (still convinced this thing will see the light of day, someday), and a number of other UU pokemon that could *adapt* to Magmar's presence if it's good at doing what it does.

 

Next: enough with the Linoone comparisons. You're comparing apples to fucking watermelons here, 80 BP STAB with +2 Priority AND +6 Atk just isn't the same as 40 BP non-stab with +1 Priority and +6 attack. One is obviously way superior, and while the technique is the same (get a clean drum off and sweep) it's a bit harder to pull off when you're weak to attack types from common walls, and don't check every priority user in the game by out-prioritying them to death. We all know that the only viable counters to Linoone (Haunter, Misdreavus) are practically NU and the only reason for them to even exist would be to check Linoone - whereas a number of totally normal pokemon exist to check some variant of Magmar.

 

As far as Kangaskhan & others go: the UU metagame has been totally stagnant, and Magmar will likely be one of those pokes that can force change because of how bad it punishes you for running the best pokemon out there. Forcing Kangaskhan to run an offensive set or making Steelix/Vileplume less viable are good things for a diverse metagame - suddenly it's just not as easy as slapping together a really tight core and murking everyone. Maybe you will have to use Quagsire or Altaria, but that's way better then banning everything that slighly disrupts the stagnation that comes from having few viable offensive threats.

 

 

Anything can happen tbh Robo. For eg when I faced Piata with my bdrum zard (last poke) vs his skarmory. I bdrummed so that drill peck would put me in salac range after drum because sub would break and I eventually wouldn't be able to set up then. But yes, usually sub drum / endure drum is always the preferred set. The salac set is only to outspeed tenta/crobat which were basically supposed to revenge kill it. This applies to Swellow as well that would try to QA the Magmar. Otherwise running Salac is pointless seeing as how a jolly magmar with sitrus outspeeds hitmonlee and speed ties with Xatu and if we're assuming bulky Xatu then I don't know if ppl would run full speed investment on it. 

 

Let me make it clear again what I am comparing. I am comparing  :

 

A Pokemon (linoone) which has 4 revenge killers, 2 straight up counters, which has a lower spdef base stat, lower base attack, with shitty coverage, but a +2 80 BP stab move

 

Vs

 

A Pokemon which need not necessarily have revenge killers depending on if it carries salac, 1 proper counter (quagsire), may be 2 if lanturn is usable, with higher base spdef, higher base attack, better coverage, and moves which can deal a dmg of 225 power or 150 power depending on whether or not it is SE and also with priority to beat one of the most commonly used priority users in UU, Hitmonlee. 

 

I hear you about running Kanga offensive and tbh you don't need to run offensive Kanga to beat Magmar because double edge does srs dmg to a poke like that with a shitty base def, but my point is that doesn't Linoone also punish you for running the best of the best though? I just feel like the risk:reward ratio with Magmar is just too high and almost same with Linoone, because I know that there are multiple ways of beating steelix/vile without having to use op pokemon. I feel like that is where people need to be creative enough so that they can find that one poke. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by NikhilR

[Kizhaz]

For a discussion about Magmar I'm seeing a lot about the faster Linoone with access to +2 120 power move and thief to cover the ghosts

[Gunthug]

It's like a train wreck - you want to look away but you just can't. Nik, please erase the phrase "then we might as well bring back" from your vocabulary. The comment about scizor, machamp, etc being able to be revenge killed just destroys your credibility. Why? Because those pokes can switch in and out freely when threatened. Magmar has one shot to do its job

Edited May 19, 2015 by Gunthug

[NikhilR]

It's like a train wreck - you want to look away but you just can't. Nik, please erase the phrase "then we might as well bring back" from your vocabulary. The comment about scizor, machamp, etc being able to be revenge killed just destroys your credibility. Why? Because those pokes can switch in and out freely when threatened. Magmar has one shot to do its job

 

I absolutely agree with this and I know I'm sounding like a massive dick about it but my point isn't about being just revenge killed. My point is that if a pokemon finds it very easy to set up in such a manner that it can just wreck anything, then it should be banned. Scizor could set up on a shitload of pokemon, so could so many attackers. The same applies for Magmar and Linoone. The problem with these pokemon, despite them being frail is how they go to +6. Zangoose, Kingler etc. are frail af special wise but none of them go to +6 in just one move. Hence the reason why I don't feel that they are broken. Getting to +6 in one move is completely different  than becoming +2. Getting +6 and having access to priority is another thing that is scary. If Magmar didn't have access to Mach Punch then there is no way that I would continue on this discussion because not running priority is on yourself. But then now you are forced to play smartly so that you don't get screwed over priority is another thing. Because there are lot of bellydrummers out there like Poliwrath but those can get revenge killed with priority.

 

Hence the reason why I feel that there are similarities between Linoone and Magmar. I clearly remember azumarill getting aquajet in future gens and I assume that has priority. If that was implemented here then I'd go for a ban. Yes the priority power is more considering stab but priority is priority for ffs and the priority users in our current meta are fragile af where +6 mach punch has a good chance of killing you. 

 

The reasons I have gotten from people to keep Magmar in with revenge killers could be used for Linoone as well, which is why I don't understand the difference of how this priority can make so much of a difference on most ppl's opinion. 

[OldKeith]

People mentioning Salac always mention Endure/Sub, and loss of coverage. Which is false. Magmar can use Double-Edge after Belly Drum to get to Salac range, while maintaining enough coverage to take something else before it dies. Guaranteed 2 kills imo.

[ThinkNice]

Linoone had very few counters? Please. Steelix, Aggron, Omastar, Haunter. Offense had no answers for it? Wtf are CB Aggron and Haunter then? Walls? Lol. Most bulky water types like Cloyster and Walrein even survive +6 Espeed which make sure that Linoone cannot sweep wall teams. Please mention some valid counters to Magmar other than Quagsire.

 

Haunter is not a counter. Also how hypcritical are you if you only accept Quagsire as a full BD Magmar counter but you do count Omastar, Walrein and Cloyster as Linoone counters? Also since when is Cloyster UU. Assuming the moveset Brick Break / Extremespeed / Iron Tail neither offense or stall would have much answers to this.

 

+6 252 Atk Linoone Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 149-176 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Linoone Brick Break vs. 232 HP / 220+ Def Walrein: 182-216 (85 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Linoone Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 248-296 (140.1 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252 Atk Linoone Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 144-170 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Kinda sad that we are still riding on the Linoone comparison right.

 

 

I would like to see how Linoone breaks a wall style with steelix and haunter in the same if you feel that magmar can't break it. Linoone has lesser spdef bulk than Magmar thus making it weaker to most special attacks. Less counters again, I laugh at that. I didn't realize not having to use salac berry gives Linoone instant advantage over Magmar. Wow. 

 

I don't know where you got the idea that Linoone can't break Haunter. It is faster last time I checked. But you assume everything is bulky or something. The spdef literally doesn't matter on Bdrum sweepers. And I guess you realize now how much of an advantage Linoone has for not having to use Salac to sweep, you're welcome.

 

I can't believe how you're using the revenge killing argument for keeping magmar because the truth is that its offensive power is capable of finishing any pokemon off. Judging from this, why don't we unban Scizor seeing as how it can be revenge killed by so many things?

 

Because Magmar sacrifices 50% of it's HP that it can't get back with Leftovers and Scizor does not? Making Magmar a one time setup mon and Scizor can come in multiple times and have recovery. I'm trying really hard to not call you out for something right here.

 

Why the fuck does priority matter in this situation? Priority matters to beat priority . Otherwise if you're faster you can finish it off with a move. 

 

Because UU is full with priority and priority is usually the answer offense has for threats like Linoone and Magmar. I already explained why offense can't check Linoone tho, while it can check Magmar.

 

Yeah as I thought so, your definition of stall is clearly gen4+, so for now, my definition of stall is the definition of stall in Pokemmo. 

 

You don't even know what a metagame is do you, if you did you wouldn't be talking like a metagame is something that is always the same.

 

You clearly haven't seen me enough if you haven't seen me run various playstyles. I think my box is pretty big seeing as how I've got to where I am right now.

 

Again you mention Quagsire as the only and true valid counter / switch in to Magmar. So having Quagsire on multiple teams makes it okay? It's the same bs argument about having Scizor in UU when Slowking was around a lot because that was the only true counter. What do you want me to do vs a Magmar then? Lets not forget 252 speed Jolly Magmar is faster than Hitmonlee which makes Mach Punch useless. So basically you have no way of knowing what spread the opposing Magmar is since you conveniently decided to do nothing about it, which means your CB Lee is dead.

 

No I listed a bunch of things that could take a hit and since when is Lanturn not valid on UU teams? Since you decided that you didn't like to use it on your teams? And if you switch in your Lee for the revenge kill without knowing if it is bulky Salac than that doesn't fall under 'playing intelligently'. Two things how you can check this: adamant damage vs jolly damage, HP invest damage vs speed invest damage. Again the Scizor argument, kay.

 

Crobat, Fast Tentacruel, Wish/Screen Xatu are viable for stall playstyle? No shit, because last time I checked so was Omastar, Steelix, Walrein and Aggron if you prefer offensive to beat Linoone. Also I lol'd at Crobat switching in on +6 Magmar. 

 

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 66-78 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

GG your revenge killer. The only way this would work is if you run haze. But :

 

Well I kinda assumed you'd know I'd run Haze on a Crobat on a stall team. Also 0HP invest, nice calc.

 

So I'll just wait for another time to come back in and bdrum but I might need support for that. Assuming that your initial argument didn't have haze why don't I run Tentacruel also to stop Magmar? It's not that hard for a salac reliant pokemon to come in again. If you switch it in on a predicted hit and if they are bulky after bdrum, then the hit leaves them at salac range assuming you just watched it go to +6 while doing nothing. 

 

Are you even realizing what you are saying here. Who the fuck is going to let you set up twice with a Bdum Magmar, do you really think the players here don't have a brain? You are simply insulting the whole competitive community, think before you speak. Why would I not hit the Salac user on it's second attempt of Drumming, it literally doesn't make sense what you are saying here.

 

Yeah no one runs fake out on Kanga since ppl like coverage so they go for return / crunch / fire or eq with rest. Defensive Kangas would run wish/protect. But hey let me sack my coverage or support for Magmar. Also if you mention Fake Out has other uses such as to beat flail/reversal-ers, then endure. Also let me just say that running EQ or wish/protect combo is always more beneficial than running fake out.

 

'No one runs ~~' is a shitty argument unless I'm telling you to run something very obscure that isn't viable outside anything else than countering a specific Pokémon. Like Perish Song Kanga or something. What 'people like' doesn't matter, high threats in the metagame force you to deal with them like how Ttar would force Snorlax to run EQ or else it can not touch it. Sure 'people rather use Crunch', but if that means you can't take out a big threat in the metagame than that is your own fault. If this threat it balanced or not, well that's what we are discussing here.

 

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious about using Impish Granbull. Golem could be more viable with bdrum magmar around? No fucking way because lets bring back Linoone since that would make Aggron more viable.

 

Impish Heal Bell Granbul? Never heard of it? Aggron is literally outclassed by Steelix, so it wouldn't make it 'more viable' although Golem has a specific niche on its own.

 

If you're not using a bulky water type, steelix or at least a fast bulky Misd in your team then I don't know what kind of stall people were running back when Linoone was around.

 

One that got bopped by Linoone.

 

I'm pretty sure Scizor also made a lot of pokemon like Manectric, Zangoose, Kangaskhan, Xatu. Crobat way more viable as it encouraged to run fire moves or revenge kill it, so please Think, cut the crap about how running one pokemon made another viable as an argument to keep something broken in. Lets bring back Linoone if you're so keen on breaking Vileplume and reducing that 50% usage. But it looks like you have trouble beating Vileplume without using a bellydrummer, may be if your box was big then you could think of other ways of beating it.

 

Oh look Scizor, the Pokémon that didn't have to sacrifice 50% of it's HP to become a threat, I remember that one good times.

Also I like how you mention not to hit it if you fear salac because it is sub drum and if I don't hit it. then it will definitely go into salac range. So then your tentacruel+crobat+xatu becomes useless. But wait, let's run priority+tenta/cro/xatu to beat Magmar. So the situation I see is:

 

1) Hit Magmar which either result it in not bdrumming or it gets bdrum with salac+mach (deadliest combo)

2) Don't hit it and sack whatever is on field because we got tentacruel and crobat to the rescue.

 

Oh I see, so you can't do this:

1) Magmar comes in.

2) Switch directly into Crobat/Tentacruel/Quagsire/Lanturn/Altaria/Golem/Shuckle/whateverthefuck (riskier play), Stay in and go for either Taunt or a Status move crippling Salac users.

3) Your opponents Magmar either attacked with a pathetic base 75 power attack or lost 50% HP without being able to do anything.

4) Magmar is forced out and has to find another opportunity to switch in.

 

And assuming we activate the deadliest combo, let's also run Quagsire because of how so viable it is to stop the shitstorm. 

 

Wow some choice I got!

 

You're acting like Magmar doesn't have priority, something that other bellydrummers don't have. Also again please tell me why Linoone is banned? I swear you guys are hysterical about Linoone and its espeed because last time I checked normal type moves are not super effective against anything and there are pokemon types that resist it 4x, 2x and are immune to it. Whereas Magmar has a very good coverage. And last time I checked. Haunter wasn't the only ghost in UU. 

 

Last time I checked Linoone couldn't be checked by Offense.

 

I'm not just pointing out bulky/speedy sets because the fact is that you have no way of knowing the set is. You conveniently want to sit back and do nothing because you fear salac. If you fear salac and it is bellydrum then it is ggnore. Again the point is that you're unaware of what the spread is and that can punish you. Whereas Linoone runs your standard set. 

 

You don't need to know the set. Because Salac is the only threat, that's why you'll always assume salac. We already went over how the other could be checked easily.

 

What do you mean by unlike Linoone? Linoone can't touch speedy haunter/misdreavus/aggron or break through steelix/omastar. Also lets encourage the use of Espeed Pikachu while we're at it so that we can bring back Linoone. That is 4 offensive pokemon I count to beat Linoone.

 

Magmar can be revenge killed? Well so can Scizor, Machamp, Marowak etc. so lets bring them back as well. 

 

Haha, it's like you lost your brain. Since when do Scizor/Machamp/Marowak sacrifice 50% HP to become viable.

 

*More pathetic comparisons*

 

And I am sure the council has no plans of banning Magmar any time soon because the council is very well famous for keeping broken pokemon in the tier for quite a long time. 

 

*Salt*

 

 

Sorry if I am being very stubborn and I understand you don't want to reply because neither of us will change our pov.

 

It's not the problem that you are stubborn, you are simply making comparisons and arguments that are false or not thought out.

 

Anything can happen tbh Robo. For eg when I faced Piata with my bdrum zard (last poke) vs his skarmory. I bdrummed so that drill peck would put me in salac range after drum because sub would break and I eventually wouldn't be able to set up then. But yes, usually sub drum / endure drum is always the preferred set. The salac set is only to outspeed tenta/crobat which were basically supposed to revenge kill it. This applies to Swellow as well that would try to QA the Magmar. Otherwise running Salac is pointless seeing as how a jolly magmar with sitrus outspeeds hitmonlee and speed ties with Xatu and if we're assuming bulky Xatu then I don't know if ppl would run full speed investment on it. 

 

>Tie with Xatu, this guy doesn't even know his own tier smh. The Salac set also make it faster than Swellow, Fearow, Scyther, Xatu and Haunter.

 

Let me make it clear again what I am comparing. I am comparing  :

 

A Pokemon (linoone) which has 4 revenge killers, 2 straight up counters, which has a lower spdef base stat, lower base attack, with shitty coverage, but a +2 80 BP stab move

 

Vs

 

A Pokemon which need not necessarily have revenge killers depending on if it carries salac, 1 proper counter (quagsire), may be 2 if lanturn is usable, with higher base spdef, higher base attack, better coverage, and moves which can deal a dmg of 225 power or 150 power depending on whether or not it is SE and also with priority to beat one of the most commonly used priority users in UU, Hitmonlee. 

 

How long are you going to keep lying.

 

I hear you about running Kanga offensive and tbh you don't need to run offensive Kanga to beat Magmar because double edge does srs dmg to a poke like that with a shitty base def, but my point is that doesn't Linoone also punish you for running the best of the best though? I just feel like the risk:reward ratio with Magmar is just too high and almost same with Linoone, because I know that there are multiple ways of beating steelix/vile without having to use op pokemon. I feel like that is where people need to be creative enough so that they can find that one poke. 

 

You need offensive Kanga to do damage with Fake Out. Also Linoone punished you for not running Steelix, while Magmar shakes up the tier.

 

 

I absolutely agree with this and I know I'm sounding like a massive uguu about it but my point isn't about being just revenge killed. My point is that if a pokemon finds it very easy to set up in such a manner that it can just wreck anything, then it should be banned. Scizor could set up on a shitload of pokemon, so could so many attackers. The same applies for Magmar and Linoone. The problem with these pokemon, despite them being frail is how they go to +6. Zangoose, Kingler etc. are frail af special wise but none of them go to +6 in just one move. Hence the reason why I don't feel that they are broken. Getting to +6 in one move is completely different  than becoming +2. Getting +6 and having access to priority is another thing that is scary. If Magmar didn't have access to Mach Punch then there is no way that I would continue on this discussion because not running priority is on yourself. But then now you are forced to play smartly so that you don't get screwed over priority is another thing. Because there are lot of bellydrummers out there like Poliwrath but those can get revenge killed with priority.

 

Lol, you are talking as if Drummers aren't sacrificing 50% of their HP and is a normal setup move like Swords Dance.

 

Hence the reason why I feel that there are similarities between Linoone and Magmar. I clearly remember azumarill getting aquajet in future gens and I assume that has priority. If that was implemented here then I'd go for a ban. Yes the priority power is more considering stab but priority is priority for ffs and the priority users in our current meta are fragile af where +6 mach punch has a good chance of killing you. 

 

Similarities yes, but fundamentally they are different. Already explained, multiple times. Priority = priority is the same as saying pizza = pizza while you have pepperoni or hawai, vegan or four cheese. Aka: you even spewing more thoughtless nonsense.

 

The reasons I have gotten from people to keep Magmar in with revenge killers could be used for Linoone as well, which is why I don't understand the difference of how this priority can make so much of a difference on most ppl's opinion. 

 

But Linoone can't be revenge killed with offense. Unless they are running Steelix (or omg Aggron, which is just a downgraded version of Steelix really).

 

People mentioning Salac always mention Endure/Sub, and loss of coverage. Which is false. Magmar can use Double-Edge after Belly Drum to get to Salac range, while maintaining enough coverage to take something else before it dies. Guaranteed 2 kills imo.

 

It does mean that Magmar can set up on even less though. The tier is full with status and things like Armaldo and the rising Golem. Misdreavus is one of the Pokémon Magmar can take big advantage of but it can't DE it. Guaranteed 2 kills? If you are running Fire Punch / Double Edge / Mach Punch you get checked by other things than if you are running Tpunch. And we know Mach Punch is a must.  To have two guaranteed kills your opponent either shouldnt have Quag/Lanturn/Armaldo/Omastar/Shuckle/Kanga/Blastoise/Swellow the chance of this being the case is very unlikely even moreso because Quag, Lanturn and Kanga are very popular Pokémon.

 

Double Edge is certainly an option, but you are losing coverage for Bulky Waters aka: half of UU.

[OldKeith]

Mach Punch is not really a must if you run salac. Tpunch kills most bulky waters. By the time you find out the entire set of the Magmar you face, chances are you lost too much of your team anyway.

[DrCraig]

Mach Punch is not really a must if you run salac. Tpunch kills most bulky waters. By the time you find out the entire set of the Magmar you face, chances are you lost too much of your team anyway.

No mach makes you open to priority killing you. But nevertheless if you set up Magmar blindly you deserve to lose.

[OrangeManiac]

I really can't see how Magmar just "forces you out of walling playing style" for couple of reasons. Even a lot of offensive Pokemon can turn set up baits to Magmar after Magmar's team mate has used Memento, which is basically a free card to set up as the Pokemon faints and Magmar comes in so not like you would have to waste a turn of switching in if you would set up it against sleep or something. Pretty sure any Pokemon that does not have super effective move or Choice Band will not do over 50% to Magmar when being at -2. Second thing is that even if you have brought a team with 5 offensive Pokemon and 1 tank/wall then that 1 Pokemon will be the one Magmar sets up on and then sweeps. All I'm saying is that it's not that hard to support a Magmar sweep against any kind of team.


Also the unpredictable nature for Magmar is quite big. You can't entirely be sure with stuff like Scyther, Swellow or Fearow to revenge kill a Magmar because EndSalac is a legitimate possibility while compromising coverage for not having Thunderpunch, for example. Lanturn, Quagsire or Donphan might not be at full HP anymore. All the stuff you even team built against Magmar can go wrong. Haze Crobat, Espeed Pika and Fake Out Kanga are pretty much only idiot proof solutions to stop Magmar sweep without caring about the situation.


Now, here's the tricky part about unpredictability. It could easily be that more Magmar sweeps even with Memento support will fail more than succeed. Without Memento support the Magmar user might not ever get a legitimate chance to set up Belly Drum. Endureless Magmar can be dealt with faster priority. Lanturn/Quagsire/Donphan might still be at full HP and you can't know without team preview if opponent has one. A Belly Drum Magmar can go wrong in many kinds of ways so it could easily fail more than prevail. But when Magmar does succeed it's the most boring, least skillful way to win a competitive battle ever meanwhile the metagame is kinda boring where you constantly need to keep in mind of that possible table cleaning Magmar and having some of the situational methods to prevent it from happening. But at the same time, you are obliged to keep your whatever counter against a Pokemon like Hitmonlee alive, so I don't think how Magmar is any different.

TL;DR: I think Magmar is annoying, meta-centralizing, "no skill needed"-type of Pokemon but since its sweeping is situational and there are some ways to have it not destroying your team even with Memento support then BD Magmar team might just fail more than prevail and therefor not convinced it should be banned.

Edited May 19, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[ThinkNice]

Mach Punch is not really a must if you run salac. Tpunch kills most bulky waters. By the time you find out the entire set of the Magmar you face, chances are you lost too much of your team anyway.

Nobody is not going to run Mach Punch with Hitmonlee sitting at 40%.

[ThinkNice]

Also the unpredictable nature for Magmar is quite big. You can't entirely be sure with stuff like Scyther, Swellow or Fearow to revenge kill a Magmar because EndSalac is a legitimate possibility while compromising coverage for not having Thunderpunch, for example. Lanturn, Quagsire or Donphan might not be at full HP anymore. All the stuff you even team built against Magmar can go wrong. Haze Crobat, Espeed Pika and Fake Out Kanga are pretty much only idiot proof solutions to stop Magmar sweep without caring about the situation.

Endure Salac doesn't really matter against Scyther because you assume the Scyther will have QA, forcing Magmar to use the x4 non effective Mach Punch. Also:

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fearow: 113-133 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 119-141 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

About the Memento set up, that is a lot of support for a Pokémon that is not reliable to sweep with when Quagsire, Lanturn and Kangaskhan are sitting at a pretty high usage and do well against Magmar. I'm not saying these are the only counters at all but they are the most common ones right now.

 

Just a few things.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ThinkNice

[OldKeith]

Nobody is not going to run Mach Punch with Hitmonlee sitting at 40%.

 

Drum Magmar prefers running +Atk Nature. Which means it is slower than Hitmonlee anyway. If you run Salac, you don't run necessarily run Mach Punch, as it is simply bad for coverage. Just make sure your opponent has nothing left with priority. If you don't run Salac, then we can talk about straight Drumming and Mach Punch + Dual Coverage.

[NikhilR]

It's gonna be hard to quote you Think but I'll do it:

 

1) Linoone doesn't get BB in this gen so I don't know why you did calcs with BB.

 

> Doesn't know learnset of a pokemon in his tier, smh.

 

And I said using a pacy Misdreavus to beat Linoone, which I assume can be done?

 

2) How can you say that the spdef doesn't matter on bdrum sweepers? Linoone needs bulk in order to pull a bdrum safely unless you're counting sitrus:

 

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 76-90 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

 

Like I said, even if it does run salac / sitrus, then there will always be steelix, omastar, aggron to stop it. 

 

3) Fair enough on Scizor part.

 

4) I disagree with UU being full of priority. There are very few pokemon on which priority is viable and out of which only very few pokemon are viable. I think you know which ones these are. We saw how useful Quick Attack from Gligar was the other day vs Hitmonlee. 

 

5) Hmm I'd say Lanturn is a lot less viable since it is a must to run at least a lot of speed on your lanturn to beat the 112 speed choice banders and with the amount of plumes running around, I guess I stopped running. But yeah lets say Lanturn and Quags are counters. Also how are you going to calc adamant vs jolly damage when your pokemon is dead because I assume that that is when you bring your hitmonlee. It basically renders the most commonly used priority user, useless in this case. Also like Keith pointed out earlier, for the sake of the argument if I run a bdrum magmar with double edge, then I hit salac and beat your tentacruel and crobat. Are you going to also run Quagsire / Lanturn to stop it? Pretty sure Double Edge kills Lanturn but would probably end up killing myself as well in the process. Those are some counters then. The fact is that since you decided to sit back, it can choose the move of its choice to use to get to salac range. So sitting back does nothing. 

 

Also let me point out that if I bellydrum and you send Crobat. I can bellydrum again once you haze, if I have an odd hp (tell me if I am wrong about this because it's something I read in Smogon and haven't put to practice yet) which means that I can then activate salac to beat your crobat because you conveniently decided to switch in on the bellydrum. 

 

6) Please tell me your desired ev spread on Crobat unless you mean 252hp/speed or something like that.

 

7) Given wish support I get the salac boost plus I maintain I health, that's what I meant. But it's support so it becomes invalid. 

 

8) Impish Heal Bell Granbull? Never heard of it and probably never gonna use it either. 

 

9) It depends on the role your Aggron / Steelix plays. If you badly need a tank like steelix then that is the better option or else Aggron also works as it hits a lot harder. Like I said, that depends on the role you need it to play.

 

10) If people got bopped by Linoone with stall teams back then, then I believe that we should bring Linoone back because it seems like we didn't let the metagame develop enough to handle such a threat.

 

11) Your scenario:

 

Again this is basically very conditional because the truth is that we don't know what set that Magmar has. Your Tentacruel will fail to to a sub drum set. But otherwise fair on your scenario.

 

I got another situation for you:

 

You see Linoone:

 

Switch into Steelix, Walrein, Quagsire, Aggron and attack or haze it. Works right?

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Your 2nd post:

 

1) Linoone gets checked by offense such as Aggron and ( Haunter, Pika ) if Linoone is bulky. Also Fake Out CB Sneasel or Kanga could work for checking as you recommended it to be now used on pokes. 

 

2) You said salac is the threat. I bellydrum and use double edge say for instance then I do get into salac range or if I sub and get into salac rage. So again crobat/tenta don't work because you just sat back. In the first scenario omastar or almost any bulky water type beat me (just as we mentioned, the steelix to our Linoone) whereas in the latter your faster checks can't.

 

3) Nah it's not salt. Just mere observation. Letting pokes like Hariyama, Scizor run around for as long as they did while Sceptile which was a poke clearly too strong for the tier was allowed, like I said an observation. And it's not like I was wrong either calling for a Scizor ban because it did get banned. 

 

4) My bad, sorry if I missed out on 2 base points, it clearly shows my lack of knowledge on the tier, smh. Eitherways, if I run a sitrus set, I still kill Xatu so I don't know what you're talking about. 

 

5) Please tell me where the lies in my comparison are.

 

6) Robo was talking about offensive Kanga to prevent set up iirc, hence the reason why I said that Magmar can't set up vs a bulky Kanga either. Linoone punished you if you don't have a normal type resisting pokemon in your team, simple as that. You don't need to run Steelix but you need a normal type resistance and big one, that is your choice. Also, > not running steel/rock resist for normal dmg in stall team. Keith never ran Steelix if he ran Aggron, iirc. Omastar as I mentioned, works as well. 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Your 3rd post:

 

1) Please understand that Linoone can be revenge killed with offense. Doesn't matter if Aggron is a shittier version of Steelix because imo, so are Xatu, Tentacruel and Crobat. 

 

2) Also there is a lot of difference between Bellydrummers and Sword Dancers. Swords Dancers like Absol, Zangoose cannot get to +6 and keep 50% of their health seeing as most attacks do at least 40% to it because of how it takes 3 turns to set up. If I had a pokemon that could bellydrum in one move then I'd find that to be superior than something takes 3 turns to become the equivalent of that.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Two of your offensive checks, Crobat and Xatu fail to serve the purpose of a check as they die or can't ohko the magmar back without getting it into salac range. Which makes Tentacruel the only valid check. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

 

 How can you say that the spdef doesn't matter on bdrum sweepers? Linoone needs bulk in order to pull a bdrum safely unless you're counting sitrus:

 

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Linoone: 76-90 (49.6 - 58.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

 

Like I said, even if it does run salac / sitrus, then there will always be steelix, omastar, aggron to stop it. 

 

Well, to be fair, Linoone runs a bulky set much more effectively than Magmar does since ExtemeSpeed means it to run minimal speed investment at best outside of Haunter, allowing it to run optimum bulk while simultaneously denying revenge killing. Magmar on the other hand either lacks bulk if it opts for Speed or lacks speed if it opts for bulk/Sitrus. I understand you've given a set with HP investment and Salac, but a bulky set loses it's main nuance without Sitrus. I don't see what the Sludge Bomb calc actually proves as well, and especially considering that both Pokemon are vulnerable to Poison chances that hinder it from sweeping anyway. 

 

Linoone doesn't run Salac Berry. It also depends on whether or not you're running Sub on Linoone, because as lolzy as this option is it works, and I'll assume 40 BP here so correct me if I'm wrong:

252+ +6 Linoone Rock Smash vs. 228/0 Aggron: 166-196 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO 

252+ +6 Linoone Rock Smash vs. 0/0 Omastar: 113-134 (77.9 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ +6 Linoone Hidden Rock Smash vs. 252/0 Omastar: 113-134 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Won't calc for Steelix because it's Steelix but it's not like these Pokemon could wall it that reliably anyways, people just don't run this. 

 

4) I disagree with UU being full of priority. There are very few pokemon on which priority is viable and out of which only very few pokemon are viable. I think you know which ones these are. We saw how useful Quick Attack from Gligar was the other day vs Hitmonlee. 

 

Well, if people are willing to adapt, should Magmar grow dominant, priority will be common on stuff to deal with it akin to your whole Hitmonlee/Gligar example. UU has it's fair share of priority and, well -- depending on the set Magmar is vulnerable to revenge killing through priority unlike Linoone. 4MSS speaks for itself since it can't cover anything and again this +6 Mach Punch of yours is going to do pitiful damage if you're going to run Sub:

252+ +6 Magmar Mach Punch vs. 252/148+ Blastoise: 64-76 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 61.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ +6 Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252/148+ Blastoise: 89-105 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

"Salac means it doesn't run to run Mach Punch!" Then don't say Hitmonlee can't revenge kill it because higher speed base then. 

 

5) Hmm I'd say Lanturn is a lot less viable since it is a must to run at least a lot of speed on your lanturn to beat the 112 speed choice banders and with the amount of plumes running around, I guess I stopped running. But yeah lets say Lanturn and Quags are counters. Also how are you going to calc adamant vs jolly damage when your pokemon is dead because I assume that that is when you bring your hitmonlee. It basically renders the most commonly used priority user, useless in this case. Also like Keith pointed out earlier, for the sake of the argument if I run a bdrum magmar with double edge, then I hit salac and beat your tentacruel and crobat. Are you going to also run Quagsire / Lanturn to stop it? Pretty sure Double Edge kills Lanturn but would probably end up killing myself as well in the process. Those are some counters then. The fact is that since you decided to sit back, it can choose the move of its choice to use to get to salac range. So sitting back does nothing. 

 

To be fair, Fire/Normal is resisted by Rock types which includes the examples you gave of stuff like Solrock, Omastar and the like. If Magmar is forced to use two Double-Edges it's as good as dead so it's technically not a "sweeper", but "oh I killed two Pokemon, maybe that's enough". It's not hard to grasp the concept on how Magmar cannot cover everything at once, nor can you justify how Magmar always pulls off the right coverage move out of its hat depending on what's facing, especially if you decide to run Sub. To be fair, only Double-Edge and Substitute get it to Salac range, not every move, and each move offers its drawbacks. Also, Double-Edge's recoil is pretty exploitable if anything, and the common Rock/Ground types or even a Steel or whatever make for good responses on a predicted switch, meaning that DE can backfire. Of course, the predictions are again, unable to be justified appropriately, but of course you have ways to deal with Magmar depending on the coverage move. This is different from Linoone because it can't cover everything because if you want to set up safely you can only run two moves which ruins coverage and that doesn't stop it's vulnerability to revenge killing completely. Linoone on the other hand was only "hard countered" by few things without the 4MSS problem (Iron Tail also works but low accuracy inb4), *insert Pursuit argument against Ghosts here blah blah blah*, but at the same time could run bulk and could not be revenge killed at all. 

 

Also let me point out that if I bellydrum and you send Crobat. I can bellydrum again once you haze, if I have an odd hp (tell me if I am wrong about this because it's something I read in Smogon and haven't put to practice yet) which means that I can then activate salac to beat your crobat because you conveniently decided to switch in on the bellydrum. 

 

6) Please tell me your desired ev spread on Crobat unless you mean 252hp/speed or something like that.

 

Well he's assuming the Crobat outspeeds the Salac Magmar, unless you suddenly decide to shift the spread to the >200 Speed one just to counter it, which again loops to the "it can't run all at once" argument. 

7) Given wish support I get the salac boost plus I maintain I health, that's what I meant. But it's support so it becomes invalid. 

 

Such situations are pretty unlikely if anything unless you're a god of predictions, since you can't get a +6, Salac boost and Wish at the same time unless your opponent decides to be an idiot and not attack you when you're around say at least 51% health, and when Magmar switches into you and when you are obviously gonna Belly Drum. . What if your opponent switches into something that Magmar can't set up on when you're supposed to give Wish to it that turn? 

 

8) Impish Heal Bell Granbull? Never heard of it and probably never gonna use it either. 

 

Claiming sets are irrelevant doesn't help your case. Nothing's wrong with creativity. 

 

10) If people got bopped by Linoone with stall teams back then, then I believe that we should bring Linoone back because it seems like we didn't let the metagame develop enough to handle such a threat.

 

..No. Just no. Linoone was discussed far too much and enough, and I remember the both of us being conflicted in said discussion as well (I could be wrong.) Consensus was definitely sufficient in that discussion. The meta hasn't evolved to a degree whereby Linoone can be handled at all either. 

 

 

Again this is basically very conditional because the truth is that we don't know what set that Magmar has. Your Tentacruel will fail to to a sub drum set. But otherwise fair on your scenario.

 

Again, you want failsafe counters. I can't go through this with you because comprehending that something can't cover anything isn't something you can apparently do. 

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Your 2nd post:

 

1) Linoone gets checked by offense such as Aggron and ( Haunter, Pika ) if Linoone is bulky. Also Fake Out CB Sneasel or Kanga could work for checking as you recommended it to be now used on pokes. 

 

Funny how Fake Out is relevant on Linoone but not on Magmar. I suppose switching between attacks and pokes you can possibly beat Linoone by sacking something if you have a Fake Out user, but then again, "Endure". Oh well, though. "Checked by offense" doesn't mean that the Pokemon checking it is an offensive one. It means the Pokemon can threaten to revenge kill it or pressure it enough for it to force a switch or die on the spot without doing anything, which isn't always the case on all three, although again dependent on it's set. Linoone can run both Speed sets and bulky sets, and so can Magmar, but Linoone just does both roles better and Magmar isn't up to that par to be banworthy. 

 

2) You said salac is the threat. I bellydrum and use double edge say for instance then I do get into salac range or if I sub and get into salac rage. So again crobat/tenta don't work because you just sat back. In the first scenario omastar or almost any bulky water type beat me (just as we mentioned, the steelix to our Linoone) whereas in the latter your faster checks can't.

 

If Crobat Hazes you as you use Belly Drum, you can only use Belly Drum again to actually prove a threat, because Double-Edge after Haze won't kill them, and you just got ~50% of your health off without a boost and just some damage on the Hazer. Setup attempt 100% denied since you unfortunately can't BDrum anymore because you decided to damage them with a recoil move as Crobat used Haze. Logically, I don't even get why Tentacruel needs to Haze when it can just Surf you to your death even with Sitrus, so. Leading with Sub doesn't help against Crobat if it runs Taunt, and slower Hazers can exploit the faster Sub/Drum to completely deny the setup attempt. You're assuming an entirely wrong scenario there, Magmar doesn't retain it's +6 after Haze, and using the second Belly Drum means it's going to die killing something if it has Double-Edge even if you do predict Haze and get +6 and Salac, by then of which you would have only 1% of your HP left. Again looping back to not covering everything argument if you don't opt for Double-Edge.

 

6) Robo was talking about offensive Kanga to prevent set up iirc, hence the reason why I said that Magmar can't set up vs a bulky Kanga either. Linoone punished you if you don't have a normal type resisting pokemon in your team, simple as that. You don't need to run Steelix but you need a normal type resistance and big one, that is your choice. Also, > not running steel/rock resist for normal dmg in stall team. Keith never ran Steelix if he ran Aggron, iirc. Omastar as I mentioned, works as well. 

 

The only reliable resist to Linoone theoretically is Steelix, as given in calcs above, and this isn't factoring things like Flail or Double-Edge. 

-------------------------------------------

 

Your 3rd post:

 

1) Please understand that Linoone can be revenge killed with offense. Doesn't matter if Aggron is a shittier version of Steelix because imo, so are Xatu, Tentacruel and Crobat. 

See above. This is a lie. 

 

2) Also there is a lot of difference between Bellydrummers and Sword Dancers. Swords Dancers like Absol, Zangoose cannot get to +6 and keep 50% of their health seeing as most attacks do at least 40% to it because of how it takes 3 turns to set up. If I had a pokemon that could bellydrum in one move then I'd find that to be superior than something takes 3 turns to become the equivalent of that.

 

They don't need to -- Zangoose and Absol have enough power to crush things without having to maximize their Attack, whereas Magmar doesn't get SD and even it it did has incomparable power compared to those two. Not to say they OHKO anything but saying Belly Drum is superior to Swords Dance is not necessarily correct, especially when you take 25% or 50% of your health of in the process, that puts you at risk of being very weak/frail or being outsped because you lack health/bulk. 

 

[NikhilR]

If you really want me to reply back to your post Noir, let me know but I just feel that us arguing back and forth is not going to result in any difference in our opinion. 

[Barrage]

If you really want me to reply back to your post Noir, let me know but I just feel that us arguing back and forth is not going to result in any difference in our opinion.

As someone who used to manage the tier lists, let me point out that the point of the discussions are not to "convince" any one person in particular, but to showcase arguments about a viewpoint. And this doesn't necessarily have to be towards any one person. So as long as there is productive content to post, I see no reason not to post it even if it's not to contest any specific person's arguments.

[NikhilR]

As someone who used to manage the tier lists, let me point out that the point of the discussions are not to "convince" any one person in particular, but to showcase arguments about a viewpoint. And this doesn't necessarily have to be towards any one person. So as long as there is productive content to post, I see no reason not to post it even if it's not to contest any specific person's arguments.

 

I agree and I think I've made my view point clear on the issue. I just feel that repeating the same arguments over and over again would be pointless because that's what I've been doing all along and sometimes I might provide a lot of "what if" scenarios which could tilt in any favour, especially mine, which is why it's usually easier to convince one person at a time.

 

Although if someone has read Noir's post and would like me to address a specific point/issue I'll be glad to do so. 

[DoubleJ]

Kind of want to bump this thread with some additional thoughts:

Jolly Magmar with sitrus berry is superior imo considering the wide variety of pokes it can set up on. It still outspeeds plenty of the tier and is only stopped by faster pokes that aren't seen as commonly as most.

Adamant bulky magmars have a really difficult time setting up considering they need to fall into salac range to truly succeed as a sweeper. This severely limits what it can set up on. Although once it does its hard to be stopped.

All in all magmar is absolutely crippled by status and is in a speed tier that isn't as beneficial as one would think. While definitely scary if fully set-up, getting to that point is be difficult. Again to me, Magmar has numerous checks and one really strong countrr (quagsire).

[DrCraig]

I thought Magmar with Jolly and Sitrus was the best, idk why people want to run salac, it restricts your ability to set up in the face of walls

[spoiler]and then effortlessly sweep everything[/spoiler]

[DoubleJ]

The difference is that when the adamant is set up with salac cleanly, it is only stopped by quagsire. This is because it's faster than everything (except electrode and crobat) and the extra power gets more of those ohko's. Xatu, tenta, and fearow/swellow can't stop it since they are now outsped, unlike with the jolly variant which relies on its own natural speed (159 stat)

Edited May 29, 2015 by DoubleJ

[RysPicz]

Defensive Gligar can also tank the hit if at full HP and OHKO it back with EQ

 

+6 252 Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 144-171 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gligar: 159-187 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

[spoiler]I know because that made me win a PSL match[/spoiler]

 

(same goes for Lanturn, even non-defensive one)

The difference is that when the adamant is set up with salac cleanly, it is only stopped by quagsire. This is because it's faster than everything (except electrode and crobat) and the extra power gets more of those ohko's. Xatu, tenta, and fearow/swellow can't stop it since they are now outsped, unlike with the jolly variant which relies on its own natural speed (159 stat)

Adamant though sacrifices Thunderpunch for Sub/ Endure making the list of counters a bit bigger, as it's really !@#$% hard to take off that 25% of HP after bellydrum without having either (sub ftw imo). Almost all water types are becoming counters.

 

Magmar has more counters than it seems and it is not that hard to play around it :v)

Edited May 29, 2015 by RysPicz

[DoubleJ]

I personally wouldn't sac tpunch on magmar. That just sounds silly since you're goal is to sweep not kill one poke and carry on. Maybe drop mach punch sounds more reasonable since you'll have the speed and power to beat most attackers. Priority users though can now come in and crap on you.

All in all magmar is like the asthma patient of top tier sweepers.

[Tyrone]

I'd like to thank everyone on behalf of the UU Council for this discussion.

We think Magmar is a solid pick, but not banworthy to BL at the moment. So Magmar will remain UU.

If you have any objections, you are free to advocate another Discussion thread for Magmar here:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54049-uu-tier-discussion-request-thread/