[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[BurntZebra]

Is that even a standard spread ot something you made up? If i can give up a single moveslot to handle stall even easier ill do it. You telling me people gonna be running bulky starmie when gengar going to be the #1 threat. Also little hp invested dug is the best. Can alakazam even ko dug? Zard and sceptile are tier one threats now? Gard gonna get picked as well. They arent ran right now since that would mean running another grounded poke, which is bad right now.

its just what I run on 3 of my laxes. iirc it was for taking a megahorn from heracross and being 3hko'ed by non cb metagross, along with 36 hp evs for a leftovers number. People might run the standard adv ou starmie thats max hp/enough speed for timid gengar and rest in sp atk, although it'll hit ludicolo/umbreon/gardevoir like a baby. hp invested dugtrio works in some cases but still loses to petaya jolt which we might see more of. Alakazam has like a 60% of ohko'ing dugtrio. There just aren't that many special attackers in the current meta, which is why I mentioned them. Also you lost to sceptile twice in spring tournament so its probably more viable than people think. I admit dugtrio might become even more centralizing as craig stated because it traps a lot of the physical attackers that can check special attackers. But that is an issue for a later day

[KingBowser]

its just what I run on 3 of my laxes. iirc it was for taking a megahorn from heracross and being 3hko'ed by non cb metagross, along with 36 hp evs for a leftovers number. People might run the standard adv ou starmie thats max hp/enough speed for timid gengar and rest in sp atk, although it'll hit ludicolo/umbreon/gardevoir like a baby. hp invested dugtrio works in some cases but still loses to petaya jolt which we might see more of. Alakazam has like a 60% of ohko'ing dugtrio. There just aren't that many special attackers in the current meta, which is why I mentioned them. Also you lost to sceptile twice in spring tournament so its probably more viable than people think. I admit dugtrio might become even more centralizing as craig stated because it traps a lot of the physical attackers that can check special attackers. But that is an issue for a later day

Cool, so it was just another way for you to make the situtation more favorable for you, cause I do the same thing. If I remember correctly I have 4 snorlaxs with the spread 252Attack/252spdef)

252+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax in Rain: 247-292 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Damn look at that damage.
Nice so out of all the Special attackers, we have slowbro and petyra berry jolteon.  Yea, dugtrio surely doesnt limit the Special attackers. Even with snorlax and blissey gone, all the psychic special attacker, which are most, are just gonna be pursuited by Aerodactyl, metagross, and umbreon. Oh I forgot burnt, that spectile was a special attacker, cause it clreary didnt sword dance on me, feel free to bring up more off topic points. I dont know why we should let dugtrio be an issue for a later today, when its already an issue now.

[ThinkNice]

If Dugtrio and Gengar become a problem then we will look at those IF the ban would be final. Tbh Dugtrio and Gengar were already problematic on their own right even without the bans and Dugtrio has been sitting on the fence for months.

[KingBowser]

If Dugtrio and Gengar become a problem then we will look at those IF the ban would be final. Tbh Dugtrio and Gengar were already problematic on their own right even without the bans and Dugtrio has been sitting on the fence for months.

Nice, then we can ban heracross, cause we lose like the only offensive switch in to it.

[ThinkNice]

Nice, then we can ban heracross, cause we lose like the only offensive switch in to it.

Well that's why there is no point in arguing about these things when the test hasn't even been done yet. It's all theorymon.

[KingBowser]

Well that's why there is no point in arguing about these things when the test hasn't even been done yet. It's all theorymon.

Well isnt that the point of this thread, to theorymon what the meta will be?

[ThinkNice]

Well isnt that the point of this thread, to theorymon what the meta will be?

Yeah, I just mean there is no point arguing about bans and stuff. You can argue 'Dugtrio will become strong', but it has no point in saying 'Dugtrio will be banned because x and y and then special attackers will go one by one etc', for example. There's a difference in theorizing about meta shifts and theorizing about bans and the 'slippery slope'. Like you said Dugtrio might become a very good mon but it remains to be seen if it's bannable because we simply don't have any practical evidence of that. Not that you would always need evidence (stuff like Mewtwo etc).

[KingBowser]

Yeah, I just mean there is no point arguing about bans and stuff. You can argue 'Dugtrio will become strong', but it has no point in saying 'Dugtrio will be banned because x and y and then special attackers will go one by one etc', for example. There's a difference in theorizing about meta shifts and theorizing about bans and the 'slippery slope'. Like you said Dugtrio might become a very good mon but it remains to be seen if it's bannable because we simply don't have any practical evidence of that. Not that you would always need evidence (stuff like Mewtwo etc).

Then this thread just seems like a waste of time, as the only way we can see broken and unhealthy things for the meta is by doing it. Seem like you guys just want us to talk about the possible positives, making us believe this this is actually a good idea, since all the possible problems will be addressed later.

[DrCraig]

Then this thread just seems like a waste of time, as the only way we can see broken and unhealthy things for the meta is by doing it. Seem like you guys just want us to talk about the possible positives, making us believe this this is actually a good idea, since all the possible problems will be addressed later.

The purpose of the thread was to see if the community approved of the council's proposal or not. It's not like some conspiracy theory bro. Yea these debates are relevant, but they aren't really following what the council was going to take away from this discussion.

[ThinkNice]

Then this thread just seems like a waste of time, as the only way we can see broken and unhealthy things for the meta is by doing it. Seem like you guys just want us to talk about the possible positives, making us believe this this is actually a good idea, since all the possible problems will be addressed later.

That's not what I was saying, but you are free to believe as you wish.

[KingBowser]

The purpose of the thread was to see if the community approved of the council's proposal or not. It's not like some conspiracy theory bro. Yea these debates are relevant, but they aren't really following what the council was going to take away from this discussion.

Haha like the tier council is known for listening to the opinion of the community, or more or less cares about it.

Regardless of what the meta is, stall will always be the most used team. Yea for the first few weeks it might look to have the more variety, but slowing it will start to centralize around some core. Cause every tier we have ever have has done that. Our old Nu did that, and both of our UU's has done that. Stall will always be the most used team, thats how competitive pokemon has always worked. You know what would be more useful than this, making thread on how to beat stall. New sets that players can see that will be very effective against that style of play. Not forcing them to change, cause they will always fall back to a stall team.

[ThinkNice]

 Our old Nu did that, and both of our UU's has done that. Stall will always be the most used team, thats how competitive pokemon has always worked.

Maybe in PokeMMO

[KingBowser]

Maybe in PokeMMO

Telling me the top teams of gen 6 OU isnt stall?

[ThinkNice]

Telling me the top teams of gen 6 OU isnt stall?

It is, but it's simply not true for metas like ADV or DP or when you delve to the lower tiers of each gen. Also the only reason stall is popular on tournament level in ORAS OU is because stall can cover the highest amount of threats that exist in the current OU metagame, while offense and bulky offense are plagued by match-up problems. This, however, doesn't make stall the -strongest- playstyle in ORAS OU, it makes it more consistent. While we have the problem in both OU and UU that stall IS the strongest playstyle.

[KingBowser]

It is, but it's simply not true for metas like ADV or DP or when you delve to the lower tiers of each gen. Also the only reason stall is popular on tournament level in ORAS OU is because stall can cover the highest amount of threats that exist in the current OU metagame, while offense and bulky offense are plagued by match-up problems. This, however, doesn't make stall the -strongest- playstyle in ORAS OU, it makes it more consistent. While we have the problem in both OU and UU that stall IS the strongest playstyle.

But isnt banning the lax and blissey gonna unleash so many more threats, so why wouldnt stall be the fall back team to cover them all. ADV? Is that advance OU? Cause I see frexa beating everyone with a stall team. Maybe if we had Legendaries like ADV OU, we wouldnt have so much stall. Gen 6UU best team was stall, I can find examples as well. Your last sentence is false, I won the last OU tourney without stall, OldKeith won the last UU tourney without stall. Stall surely doesnt seem the strongest for our tiers.

[ThinkNice]

But isnt banning the lax and blissey gonna unleash so many more threats, so why wouldnt stall be the fall back team to cover them all. ADV? Is that advance OU? Cause I see frexa beating everyone with a stall team. Maybe if we had Legendaries like ADV OU, we wouldnt have so much stall. Gen 6UU best team was stall, I can find examples as well. Your last sentence is false, I won the last OU tourney without stall, OldKeith won the last UU tourney without stall. Stall surely doesnt seem the strongest for our tiers.

Perhaps, the problem with Snorlax and Blissey is however that they fit on any  team archetype and stagnate the meta even if it wasn't stall orientated. I mean, I'm not in touch enough with OU to say if this meta is bad or not I'm just arguing about your points.

 

Frexa may have beat everyone with stall, but Tyrone beat everyone with CM spam, and mind you that Tyrone played more ADV battles than Frexa. So, this doesn't really prove anything. ADV really isn't centered around stall and you can ask Frexa about that if you're not sure about me. And yeah Legendaries would help this meta

[KingBowser]

Perhaps, the problem with Snorlax and Blissey is however that they fit on any  team archetype and stagnate the meta even if it wasn't stall orientated. I mean, I'm not in touch enough with OU to say if this meta is bad or not I'm just arguing about your points.

 

Frexa may have beat everyone with stall, but Tyrone beat everyone with CM spam, and mind you that Tyrone played more ADV battles than Frexa. So, this doesn't really prove anything. ADV really isn't centered around stall and you can ask Frexa about that if you're not sure about me. And yeah Legendaries would help this meta

Many pokes can easily fit on any team, that shouldnt be reason to ban them. Like I said, the meta will be different for a few weeks than will become stagnate again. It's just what every metagames does. How arent you going to be intouch with the OU meta but be here defending the biggest change to the OU metagame? You kidding me if you dont really believe the best ADV OU team werent stall, sleeptalk Zapdos+Celebi OP.

If you want to have a bordeline tier, thats fine. Dont make the OU into one though.

Edited June 11, 2015 by KingBowser

[YagamiNoir]

Many pokes can easily fit on any team, that shouldnt be reason to ban them. Like I said, the meta will be different for a few weeks than will become stagnate again. It's just what every metagames does. How arent you going to be intouch with the OU meta but be here defending the biggest change to the OU metagame? You kidding me if you dont really believe the best ADV OU team werent stall, sleeptalk Zapdos+Celebi OP.

None of them are as stagnating as the two Special Walls are. I mean, you literally cannot replace them in what they do and they are well, in some terms, "far too good to not use" in a very unhealthy way. The council's just kinda drawing a blank on what the solution is now, and find the most "unhealthy thing" being the two blobs, since the outcome is kinda unpredictable. These le slippery slopes about bans after bans when this is just a bloody suspect, for oblivion's sake, can mildly get on my nerves, though.  

 

ThinkNice's point was that you don't need stall to win a game, in which you've just evidenced yourself a few posts back as much as the metagames are different, as much as it does appear to be seemingly the "most superior playstyle ever". The rest is a matter of speculation. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Senile]

Many pokes can easily fit on any team, that shouldnt be reason to ban them. Like I said, the meta will be different for a few weeks than will become stagnate again. It's just what every metagames does. How arent you going to be intouch with the OU meta but be here defending the biggest change to the OU metagame? You kidding me if you dont really believe the best ADV OU team werent stall, sleeptalk Zapdos+Celebi OP.

If you want to have a bordeline tier, thats fine. Dont make the OU into one though.

what are you even

 

Don't talk about old gens as if you know what you're talking about if you don't, kek. And for the love of god, don't cite PSL matches of all things seriously as a way of referencing old metas.

 

Let's take the first week of SPL 6 ADV OU logs. I'm only doing the first week because they're pure text pastebins and sorting through all of them would be a gigantic pain in the ass.

 

The matches are 46, 44, 52, 28, and 276 turns long respectively. Obviously, there was only one real stall match here. 3rd gen definitely isn't "stall best playstyle", that's just untrue. Hell, 2nd gen, the gen people constantly say "DAE 2ND GEN STALL XD" isn't all stall either, offense is just as viable. (Although, even games of offense vs stall still take 200+ turns, but that's just because 2nd gen is slow regardless of what the teams are)

 

Let's not pretend stall is god playstyle. Even in 6th gen, I'd contest the argument it's the best playstyle; it is, however, very consistent. The problem with gen 6 stall teams is that they're basically ship with 15 holes in them, but only given enough parts to fix 10 holes. There's too many threats in Gen 6 to properly answer every single one, so stall teams are built to be able to well answer every top threat. This gives stall teams a lot of good matchups, since they'll be able to beat most standard teams. However, the downside to this is that a bad matchup is basically unwinnable; if a stall team is matched against something it isn't built to handle, there's basically no chance of victory. On the other hand, offense/balance teams aren't as consistent as stall, but they have a better chance of winning a bad matchup than a stall team can.

 

tl;dr: it doesn't matter because someone's just gonna say "fuck you senile" anyway kekekekekek

[KingBowser]

None of them are as stagnating as the two Special Walls are. I mean, you literally cannot replace them in what they do and they are well, in some terms, "far too good to not use" in a very unhealthy way. The council's just kinda drawing a blank on what the solution is now, and find the most "unhealthy thing" being the two blobs, since the outcome is kinda unpredictable. These le slippery slopes about bans after bans when this is just a bloody suspect, for oblivion's sake, can mildly get on my nerves, though.  

 

ThinkNice's point was that you don't need stall to win a game, in which you've just evidenced yourself a few posts back as much as the metagames are different, as much as it does appear to be seemingly the "most superior playstyle ever". The rest is a matter of speculation. 

That term unhealthy is so subjective, I dont see them as unhealthy, but why does the tier council get to decide what is unhealthy for us? You know what gets on my nerves yagami, when my time gets wasted by participating in crap like this. So stfu with your "getting on my nerves", this is a thread to talk about what the metagame will be and what will logically will happen.

ThinkNice said stall is the most consistent style of play, consistent at what though in pokemmo? Its not winning tournaments, so i dont see what the problem is.

 

[ThinkNice]

The problem with gen 6 stall teams is that they're basically ship with 15 holes in them, but only given enough parts to fix 10 holes.

lel

 

[spoiler]'In the current gen 6 metagame, there is a massive discrepancy between the amount of resources at one's disposal and the amount of threats one must consider. Moreover, stall inherently has fewer counterplay options than other team archetypes: if you choose to use stall, you are deliberately restricting yourself in your ability to outplay poor match-ups. Consequently, losing to match-up is an inevitable reality that anyone who currently uses stall must face. Building a stall team is akin to being given a ship with 20 holes and enough material to patch 15 of them.

If you see this as a problem, then the solution might be to ban things, but a Baton Pass ban does not logically follow from this premise alone. Many other teams would have just as easily won the OST finals solely due to match-up, and many other strategies and Pokemon combinations cannot be beaten by vanilla stall.'[/spoiler]

[DoubleJ]

Honestly though, what's the likelihood of the community convincing the council not to do this? Personally, the ou council has a way of just doing what they want. The unfortunate thing is that they don't always stand by their decisions either. One minute Dugtrio is the angel of our dreams the next moment it's not viable the next moment it's cancer. Nothing really changed in the mean time. I'm hoping we don't have another one of those situations here.

 

So what if the healthiest meta we can obtain is one with Snorlax and Blissey? What if Curselax and Wish Blissey are simply staples of the meta we've created and that there won't be anything more beyond this until we get a new update? Without Legendaries like Zapdos, Suicune, Raikou, and Celebi these titans will dominate the meta because of their ability to stop half the field of pokemon and slow down the other half. They are too good to not use, but is that really an unhealthy state? I mean what the hell is "healthy and unhealthy" really? Is the community really going to have to rely on the OU council to spoon feed us their definition on this, which likely is a subjectively derived definition in the first place?

 

How about we all just sit down, shake hands, and agree that the meta is shit, and that a desperate decision to ban our only true special walls is a bad idea. You folks can say "don't chat about slippery slopes", but wtf, we're saying that the meta is basically going to be shit with these pokes removed too.

 

Gengar is going to be way too fucking strong. Two weeks down the road a thread is going to be opened to ban it. Without Gengar suddenly Heracross becomes way too fucking strong. Oh shit ok. This all could be avoided if we just say fuck it, and leave the meta alone. Body Slam para is cancer, a +3 curselax is cancer, a wishbliss that can't be touched by any special attacker is cancer, but you know what....

 

THERE IS NO FUCKING CURE FOR CANCER

[ThinkNice]

 I mean what the hell is "healthy and unhealthy" really? I

Dude seriously

 

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/

[DoubleJ]

Dude seriously

 

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/

 

Sorry if you took offense, I didn't say you made up that subjective definition. 

[ThinkNice]

Sorry if you took offense, I didn't say you made up that subjective definition. 

I'm just tired of people saying 'unhealthiness' can't be defined or there is no clear thing to focus on when I linked that thread multiple times in the past. It's a great read. I didn't take offense bro, no worries.