[Implemented]Nerf Explosion/Selfdestruct

[PandaJJ]

Since this game obeys most 6th gen mechanics already, I suggest to make the moves Explosion and Selfdestruct also obey 6th gen mechanics. The reason being that most 6th gen mechanics were put in place to make the game more balanced competetively, and this also goes for Explosion/Selfdestruct. The difference between 3rd gen mechanics and 6th gen mechanics is that Explosion/Selfdestruct currently halves the opponents defense when calculating the damage, but in 6th gen it does not. Explosion (Selfdestruct) has a base power of 250 (200,) which gives it an effective power of 500 (400) with the halving defense mechanic. This sort of outrageous power generally ensures you to knock out anything that does not resist these moves, which is particularly overpowered in double battles. The 6th gen mechanics allows for more balanced and strategical play. I'm interested in hearing the community's opinion.

[RysPicz]

I'm totally up for it. Well I'd write something more but you voiced it nicely enough, nothing really to add. Competitive balance is all I care, and going further with some mechanics (pls respond about having 2 bikes/ one bike that can bunnyhop and ride up the slopes) surely has to happen one day. Better sooner than later :v)

 

Support

[Crazyhell]

nonono i'm against ! explosion is a good move move in 3g because calculating the dommage with the defense explosion in 6g is useless in 6g explodteam can't existe because the power  of explo has been reduce

3g forever <3

[AJooo]

well , better fix the stupid self Ko bug in double that prevent you to explode even if you protect with the other pokemon

 

against the explo nerf too

 

its a high risk high reward move , (+ we dont have uber powerful explo ( snorlax / Lickilicky) that are usable in future gen)

[PandaJJ]

nonono i'm against ! explosion is a good move move in 3g because calculating the dommage with the defense explosion in 6g is useless in 6g explodteam can't existe because the power  of explo has been reduce

3g forever <3

I can't agree with explosion being useless. Here are a couple of 6 gen calcs in doubles:

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 220-261 (66.6 - 79%)

252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Swampert: 105-124 (50.7 - 59.9%)

 

Slap on a choice band, and you get this:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 331-390 (100.3 - 118.1%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Swampert: 157-186 (75.8 - 89.8%)

 

Explosion is still a great tool, but it requires a lot more skill to use it efficiently. There are other reasons why explosion is bad in 6th gen, such as a plethora of viable steel/ghost types, which are not present in pokemmo.

 

well , better fix the stupid self Ko bug in double that prevent you to explode even if you protect with the other pokemon

This was fixed on the PTS last time I checked.

[screamfields]

i dont agree, at least in ou the pokemons wich have something with that move are really slow so the explosion always is with more than %50 of hp. easy predictible and easy tank-able with ghost or steel pokemon. sorry for my english, isnt my native language.

[KaynineXL]

I'v not played much doubles, but from what I see it's a high risk high reward move. You can always predict with protects or switching to some ghost/resist.

[Gunthug]

part of me agrees with previous posters, in that I don't believe explosion/self destruct are problematic moves right now. But if we're headed towards 6th gen mechanics for all of the moves we have (assuming bullet seed and co get the bump they deserve), then there's no real reason to exclude this one

[PandaJJ]

This is not a tiering discussion, though.  I didn't claim that explosion was broken, although I do believe any metagame looks better with the 6th gen mechanics. It's a 6th gen mechanic that has been excluded, and unlike other excluded 6th gen mechanics (the base power of outrage, for instance,) this change does not make anything broken - quite the opposite, in fact. "Don't fix it if it isn't broken" doesn't apply here, because I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm merely asking for a 6th gen mechanic that is obviously not broken (and arguably better) to be implemented. I could argue how several other strategies will become much more viable at the cost of explosion becoming less viable, but that is just as much beside the point as you arguing that explosion will become less viable.

Edited August 8, 2015 by PandaJJ

[BurntZebra]

Explosion/selfdestruct are nerfed in doubles already, although only by a factor of 75%, but it still makes a difference in a lot of kos, and its quite easy to scout for explosions with ghost types or protect or substitute. I don't really know that much about gen 6 doubles, so I can't really say anything about that.

[Vaeldras]

Even though i don't like the influence this would have on our ou meta i can't deny this is bound to happen if we're actually headed toward gen 6.

The question is: are we? 3 years and we're still in gen 3, while the actual games actually added a new gen during these years.

[Gunthug]

if we're actually headed toward gen 6.

The question is: are we?

it's not about whether the entire game is headed that way - just move mechanics. and you can clearly see that we are, considering move mechanics keep getting changed to gen 6

[Spaintakula]

Most of your post is nerfing it because it's OP in Doubles. What about other tiers tho? Like, I can already imagine OU being even more stally than now, explode/sdestruct helps quite a lot towards balancing the stall in those tiers. I don't really know how other tiers can benefit too much from this, the move itself isn't broken, it's a sacrifice for a sacrifice, and if you're careless and can't expect when and on what your opponent intends to use it, then there's no reason for people to complain that it's broken. I know you're not saying it's broken, but had to note that myself.

I'd rather not see it get nerfed, not unless there's some other thing that can make it balance out as it would be before nerfing it. I guess it'd be better nerfed in Doubles, but not overall.

[Darkshade]

This one was something I brought up a little while back, I was for the idea personally.

However, after speaking with the council it was decided against; I'm definitely interested in hearing what people have to say on this one.

[Robofiend]

I'm actually for this, there's no reason explosion should be as good as it is. Even in singles it can be a problem because you can build exploding teams with trappers for ghosts/steels.

[Vaeldras]

Most of your post is nerfing it because it's OP in Doubles. What about other tiers tho? Like, I can already imagine OU being even more stally than now, explode/sdestruct helps quite a lot towards balancing the stall in those tiers. I don't really know how other tiers can benefit too much from this, the move itself isn't broken, it's a sacrifice for a sacrifice, and if you're careless and can't expect when and on what your opponent intends to use it, then there's no reason for people to complain that it's broken. I know you're not saying it's broken, but had to note that myself.

I'd rather not see it get nerfed, not unless there's some other thing that can make it balance out as it would be before nerfing it. I guess it'd be better nerfed in Doubles, but not overall.

 

It's not about tiering, tiers will change over time.

Don't get me wrong, i agree with you when you say they're not broken and stuff but it would make sense to have them like they are in 6th gen.

Maybe we could wait some more if we want to take tiering into account.

[PandaJJ]

Most of your post is nerfing it because it's OP in Doubles. What about other tiers tho? Like, I can already imagine OU being even more stally than now, explode/sdestruct helps quite a lot towards balancing the stall in those tiers. I don't really know how other tiers can benefit too much from this, the move itself isn't broken, it's a sacrifice for a sacrifice, and if you're careless and can't expect when and on what your opponent intends to use it, then there's no reason for people to complain that it's broken. I know you're not saying it's broken, but had to note that myself.

I'd rather not see it get nerfed, not unless there's some other thing that can make it balance out as it would be before nerfing it. I guess it'd be better nerfed in Doubles, but not overall.

Explosion is still the most powerful move in the game, and it still gets the OHKO on non-walls, as well as being able to KO a wall after an initial hit. Considering that a pokemon like metagross can dish out massive damage with other moves and then just kill pretty much whatever it likes with an explosion, I can see how the nerf can be beneficial in singles. Another example is forretress, which is a purely defensive pokemon with the only purpose of setting up spikes and spin, but guess what? After it does so it can kill a huge portion of the game with explosion. Explosion typically is not a one-for-one trade, and it is not so much a "high risk, high reward" move as people seem to think. It's not like explosion is never used in 6th gen, either - it is still a great move.

 

Again this is not a tiering discussion, but I would be interested in hearing about how this nerf will somehow negatively affect singles, because I can honestly just see the game becoming more healthy.

[NikhilR]

I'm all for nerfing explosion. I don't understand how people can say you can predict the explosion because there's absolutely no way you can predict it unless you know a lot about the player you're playing, beforehand. 

 

Atm it's too good of a move to not use in doubles and imo it has more reward and less risk since it's a 2 for 1 package. When it comes to singles, it's a players' best/favourite option when it comes to breaking a defensive core. Now I'm not saying that this is a wrong approach because you do lose something in the process, but it's by far the least innovative way to go about it. 

Edited August 8, 2015 by NikhilR

[Vaeldras]

I don't understand how people can say you can predict the explosion because there's absolutely no way you can predict it unless you know a lot about the player you're playing, beforehand. 

 

Atm it's too good of a move to not use in doubles and imo

 

your metagross runs explosion

 

It's that easy lmao

[DoubleJ]

I'd have to disagree with this suggestion. Explosion/Self-Destruct may be powerful, but they certainly come with an incredible risk. The calcs you showed indicates that Snorlax using STAB Self-Destruct fails to OHKO even Blissey. That doesn't sound competitive, that sounds like a suicide move that does absolutely nothing for your team. When I use either of these, I expect to kill my opponent, not tickle them and give them an advantage. 

[AJooo]

i dont really get this Gen 6 mechanics thing lol we are playing under gen 3-4 style ,

 

Could i ask to add sandstorm effect ( up the sp def (gen 4  effect) to make it more viable ?) , could i ask to get a sitrus berry givin 1/4 of user HP instead of 30 Hp ? ) thats quite ridiculous , need everything or nothing

 

explosion nerf (gen5) mostly come up coz of gen 4 (lickyclichy explosion / snorlax acces to explosion)

 

i d rather see move work as intended in Gen 3 (Mist for example (still not workin as intended in gen 3) on pokemmo) than trying to make some change that come up in later gen when our meta is miles away from what occurs this change in the real game

 

 

 

explosion prediction is part of the game and a good switch in / protect and your adv loose a free poke and loose the mental leadership lel

Edited August 8, 2015 by AJooo

[NikhilR]

your metagross runs explosion

 

It's that easy lmao

 

Really? I'd like to see where your op prediction skills have gotten you so far, lmao.

 

If you've seen Schuchty's team before, you'd know that he explodes despite being at full health, something that normal exploders don't do. Ofc it can work both ways, but the only way you'd know this is through scouting. And even then, you still shouldn't be awarded a 2 for 1 package.

 

 

i dont really get this Gen 6 mechanics thing lol we are playing under gen 3-4 style ,

 

explosion prediction is part of the game and a good switch in / protect and your adv loose a free poke and loose the mental leadership lel

 

 

I think we're following a few of gen 6 mechanics already, like with synchronize, if I'm right. 

Edited August 8, 2015 by NikhilR

[FlareBlitzz]

I can't agree with explosion being useless. Here are a couple of 6 gen calcs in doubles:

 

252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 220-261 (66.6 - 79%)

252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Swampert: 105-124 (50.7 - 59.9%)

 

Slap on a choice band, and you get this:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 331-390 (100.3 - 118.1%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Swampert: 157-186 (75.8 - 89.8%)

 

Explosion is still a great tool, but it requires a lot more skill to use it efficiently. There are other reasons why explosion is bad in 6th gen, such as a plethora of viable steel/ghost types, which are not present in pokemmo.

 

This was fixed on the PTS last time I checked.

 

But who runs 0 HP Blisseys

[NikhilR]

But who runs 0 HP Blisseys

 

The most common doubles set, is 252def/spak modest blissey because you want your icebeam/tbolt to ohko mences/gyaradoses.

[Vaeldras]

Really? I'd like to see where your op prediction skills have gotten you so far, lmao.

 

If you've seen Schuchty's team before, you'd know that he explodes despite being at full health, something that normal exploders don't do. Ofc it can work both ways, but the only way you'd know this is through scouting. And even then, you still shouldn't be awarded a 2 for 1 package.

 

 

 

 

I think we're following a few of gen 6 mechanics already, like with synchronize, if I'm right. 

 

Except there's not just doubles, if we really want to talk about tiers.

All i can see is forretress becoming less viable and adamant metagross running pursuit every single time * in ou

Can't say anything about uu and nu cause all i do is ou every now and then, but all i see here is people complaining about metagross being annoying in doubles and noone having any actual argument on why it's unhealthy outside of doubles.

Again, i'm not against the change because that's where i think we're headed, but if we want to talk about our current meta then we'd better talk about all the tiers.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Vaeldras