[UU Discussion] Charizard

[Artemiseta]

[UU] Charizard Discussion

 

 

Popular Sets:

 

Belly Zard

Item: Salac Berry / Sitrus Berry

Nature: Adamant / Jolly

EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe 

• Fire Punch
• Thunder Punch / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Crunch
• Substitute / Endure
• Belly Drum

 

Sunny Zard

Item: Leftovers / Petaya Berry / Salac Berry

Nature: Modest / Timid

EVs: 252 SpAtt / 252 Spe

• Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Heat Wave
• Solarbeam / HP Grass
• Substitute / HP Flying / HP Electric / Ancient Power
• Sunny Day

 

SubPunch Zard (Kills just about every wall available)

Item: Leftovers / Petaya Berry

Nature: Rash / Mild / Hasty / Naive

EVs: 100 Att / 252 SpAtt / 156 Spe

• Flamethrower / Fire Blast
• HP grass
• Substitute
• Focus Punch

 

Dragon Dance Charizard

Item: Lum Berry

Nature: Adamant

EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe

• Dragon Dance
• Fire Punch
• Thunder Punch
• Earthquake

 

A list of Pokemon that rival Charizard's speed:

[Spoiler] 

Electabuzz

Sneasel

Persian

Ninjask

Electrode

Fearow

Ninetales

Tentacruel

Miltank

Raichu

Rapidash

Scyther

Manectric

Kadabra

Swellow

Crobat

[/spoiler]

These and only these things can either outspeed or speed tie with Charizard, and hit him before he establishes a Substitute. Because of this, Belly Charizard has a difficult time setting up, and can only capitalize if it switches in vs a CB-locked EQ or switch in vs a pokemon that can't inflict any more than 25% damage. Now while these circumstances are not ideal for Charizard users, a bit of support via Encore Wynaut, defensive screens, or memento can make it much easier to obtain a Belly Drum and proceed to sweep.

 

With the popularity of Choice Band users and with a large percentage of them running EQ, Charizard can take advantage of this by sacrificing a teammate and gaining a free turn of set-up. Once this happens Belly Charizard becomes nearly unstoppable. The only multi-hit move that can break a Charizard Substitute and faint it is Rock Blast, which has very few users (Rhydon/ Steelix/ Golem/ Armaldo/ Omastar/ Corsola/ Octillery/ Nosepass in UU), and even then most rarely run it.

 

Calc wise nearly nothing can stand up to a +6 Charizard. Priority wise you need to first have broken the substitute and then be able to faint it with a priority move that can inflict ~25%. So with this in mind, Belly Drum Charizard is by far and away the most dangerous set, but when you take into consideration the versatility that Charizard brings you worry that you might be countering the wrong thing and could eventually lose regardless.

 

Damage Calculations:

[spoiler] 

Kangaskhan

with no cb

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 37-45 (24 - 29.2%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO

cb

252+ Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 57-67 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Pikachu

252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 73-86 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO

 

Shiftry

252+ Atk Choice Band Shiftry Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 39-46 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

non cb doesnt do enough and idk why you;d run fake out + cb

 

Hitmonlee

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 30-36 (19.4 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

 

Sneasel

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 34-41 (22 - 26.6%) -- 17.5% chance to 4HKO

with cb still unlikely to kill

 

And these are only Belly Zard issues

[/spoiler]

 

In addition to this behemoth, we also have variants that can break walls in UU quite effectively. Every wall in UU has a weakness Zard is able to exploit (minus Slowking to a degree).

Vileplume has to run in the face of Flamethrower or Fire Blast, allowing Charizard to obtain a free Substitute to take advantage of any incoming switch in.

You can also take advantage of Petaya Berry to inflict serious damage to your opponent with Blaze + STAB + SpAtt Petaya Boost. In addition to this Petaya Boost can result in major damage to Slowking with HP Grass. 

 

 

So with this in mind, we'd like to hear what you think about Charizard in UU. Does it fit the following offensive uber characteristic?

 

Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 *Credits to Fred for calcs and parts of initial explanation

 

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Artemiseta

[Toast]

I think zard's unpredictability is what makes it so much scarier. Once bellyzard sets up you're pretty much done unless you have a swellow/manectric, because some might even run sitrus to avoid being killed by priority. Also if you see a zard being sent in you're at a disadvantage. You basically have to sack something to revenge zard because its sets are just so strong. If you try and stay in and attacking the zard assuming it's a bellyzard, you may be surprised with a sunnybeamer which will also hurt majority of your team, again unless you're running swellow or manectric, which would seem a bit too centralizing (i guess tenta could check it too in a way). Imo it is part of the offensive characteristic because all you really need to do is set up sun or belly drum or even sub to sweep majority of a person's team.

[fredrichnietze]

i forgot i did these calcs ages ago. should probably add rock blast rhydon as a good way to stop fire punch + not eq bdrum zard.

 

still got the calcs for 133 speed zard? 156 hp 252 att 100 speed adamant tanks a lot of the barely 1hko @25% priority attacks.

 

also i find it funny that this conversation waited until after jj got his zard

[Artemiseta]

I used all calcs that we had fred.

they run eq a lot for se on tenta and non contact if people run ampha or other static users

[DoubleJ]

i forgot i did these calcs ages ago. should probably add rock blast rhydon as a good way to stop fire punch + not eq bdrum zard.

 

still got the calcs for 133 speed zard? 156 hp 252 att 100 speed adamant tanks a lot of the barely 1hko @25% priority attacks.

 

also i find it funny that this conversation waited until after jj got his zard

 

Well the whole premise was that we didn't want to make any changes just before the Championship, since it was about five days before that we realized a few of these things were truly broken. Arguing about Rhydon's effect on the tier really tied us up, and even still I really don't find it broken in practice but ubsurdly broken in theory. 

 

 

EDIT: Praise my Zard. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Gunthug]

Keep in mind that Zard certainly doesn't have to run sub on a belly set - many just drum 1st turn and dare you to take 75% of its health away. Gives you an extra coverage move, too

[DoubleJ]

Keep in mind that Zard certainly doesn't have to run sub on a belly set - many just drum 1st turn and dare you to take 75% of its health away. Gives you an extra coverage move, too

 

And you can run +Speed to only be outsped by Swellow and Manectric, and also speed tie with +Speed Tentacruel (in regards to the common stuff). 

[NikhilR]

And with sitrus set, Manectric+Swellow would use tbolt or return to revenge kill it, but since it learns QA (through BP), it can use that to hit first and probs get a kill. 

[DoubleJ]

And with sitrus set, Manectric+Swellow would use tbolt or return to revenge kill it, but since it learns QA (through BP), it can use that to hit first and probs get a kill. 

 

Jolly + Sitrus Berry

• Fire Punch
• Earthquake
• Quick Attack
• Belly Drum

Ripperoni. 

 

 

EDIT:

 

+6 252 Atk Charizard Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 96-114 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252 Atk Charizard Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swellow: 102-121 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after toxic damage

+6 252 Atk Charizard Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 102-121 (70.3 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Ripperoni again. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by DoubleJ

[trillsmith]

Uu sure I can win very easy using him

[n0vylif3]

killed tons of zards with my donphan

[xilias]

killed tons of zards with my donphan

252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan in Sun: 204-241 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 199-235 (101 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 

plz

Edited September 9, 2015 by xilias

[Toast]

killed tons of zards with my donphan

Okay, so what? Zard is gonna be killing your donphan once it's locked into CB EQ, have fun being set up on with a bellydrum or sun, unless you're not running CB.

[RysPicz]

Keep in mind that Zard certainly doesn't have to run sub on a belly set - many just drum 1st turn and dare you to take 75% of its health away. Gives you an extra coverage move, too

>:D

 

For that Zard, Fire Punch + Crunch + EQ actually is the best set. Trust me, I know.

Well J got his shiny zard now, can we put it into BL actually

[DoubleJ]

> :D

 

For that Zard, Fire Punch + Crunch + EQ actually is the best set. Trust me, I know.

Well J got his shiny zard now, can we put it into BL actually

 

Why Crunch in UU?

[Kizhaz]

Why Crunch in UU?

 

I assume Slowking, but then I feel tpunch would have the better coverage anyway at the cost of 5 base power

[RysPicz]

Why Crunch in UU?

Defensive Dusclops tanked my Zard's +6 fire punch. Crunch would've killed it, plus Crunch + EQ + Fire Punch gives overall better coverage. Oh and it gives slightly bigger damage output on Altaria.

 

I got a bit more time now so I'll elaborate my thoughts on Zard since I was the second player after Keith who applied for this discussion thread.

 

There are at least 4 (!) very viable and very powerful Zard sets.

 

1. Sunny day + Fire Blast + Solarbeam + Sub, Timid natured with Petaya.

2. Thunderpunch, Fire Punch, Substitue, Belly Drum, Adamant natured with Salac.

3. Thunderpunch (or Crunch, pls), Fire Punch, Earthquake, Belly Drum, Jolly natured with Sitrus.

4. Sunny Day + Fire Blast + Solarbeam + Ancientpower, Timid natured with usually Petaya but I've seen some with lefties or Lum.

 

Set 1 crushes practically every single pokemon in the tier. You sub, wait for counter to come, setup sun or even straight attack if it threats you, start killing. Grass + Fire gives insane coverage, with Charizard's high special attack, STAB Fire Blast under sun deals insane amount of damage and when it's powered up even further with Petaya AND Blaze, this is what happens:

 

+1 252 SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking in Sun: 140-165 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And this is a fucking resisted hit that a pokemon with 95/110 base special bulk 252/4 investment takes. Solarbeam deals similar amount of damage (making it a guaranteed 2hko anyway)

So what's the counter? Well. Send out your own Ancientpower/ Thunderpunch Charizard and hope for a speedtie win. There! "Look it's Charizard, I'll counter it with my own Charizard".

 

Set 2 lately is out of use because of Zard's difficulties of setting up (needs 2 turns) and Swellow's popularity, giving us a very good STAB Priority that ends the sweep.

 

Set 3 is my favourite. Most of you know why. Raise your hand if you were lategame or even early game swept by Gladiator. Those 6:0's were glorious and I don't regret putting so much funds and time into breeding that monster. Instant drum is like a guaranteed kill, this does not get killed by priority but this totally SHITS on stall teams. That set just kills stall, period. Manectric, Swellow, Tenta (to some degree- needs to win the speed tie) are it's only real counters and they can basically only force it out or revenge-kill it, because Quag cannot kill with either uninvestes surf or waterfall and Lanturn dies to EQ.

 

Set 4 is on a rise because of ... Zards, and the fact that Ancientpower covers other Zards.

 

There were some mixed sub punch fire blast and hp grass and stuff but due to... other Charizards, they did not became very effective. Besides sun blaze +1 Fire Blast when resisted does like similar amount to a super effective Focus Punch.

 

I am sorry about not posting a lot of calcs but I'm pouring my own knowledge and experience from facing and using different Charizards. I agree with Toast who said that it's biggest threat is the versatility, AND effectiveness of each set. I belive Charizard became an offensive uber, capable of crushing any wall, butchering through teams without any remorse.

After a long time of rampaging, I think it already earned it's place in BL.

Edited September 9, 2015 by RysPicz

[TheRealPhatiman]

just wanted to add if the zard user is using sitrus the swellow needs to be ballsy asf and predict right cause if they dont this happens:

 

+1 252 Atk Swellow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 62-74 (40.5 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO on the switch

+1 252 Atk Swellow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 32-38 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO if zard stays

+1 252 Atk Swellow Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 70-84 (45.7 - 54.9%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO

 

you have to either use return or dedge,predict wrong and rip your anoos..

[DoubleJ]

Update: The UU Tier Council has come to a decision on Charizard. After much deliberation we have decided that Charizard meets the Uber Offensive criteria and will henceforth be banned to BL once more. 

 

This decision was made on the premise that Charizard is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the Under-Used tier with little effort. Having access to Belly Drum, Charizard is capable of boosting its attack to +6 with only marginal risk. After discussing the various Belly Drum sets it was obvious that Charizard could make use of its decent speed (3rd best in the tier) and a Sitrus Berry to pull off quick and easy sweeps against opponents that are either forced to switch, in fear of a STAB Fire-attack, and/or are unable to do more than 75% damage in one attack. Once a Belly Drum is safely established, the only common pokemon that threaten Zard are Swellow, Manectric, and Tentacruel on a speed-tie. Priority moves should be taken into consideration, but we are making the assumption that Charizard has enough health to live at least one commonly weak priority attack at this point. Charizard also has access to Dragon Dance, which has proven to be a deadly late game sweeper. Various other move-sets have also shown to be centralizing to the tier and also detrimental to stall as an entire play-style. 

 

 

Offensive Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

 

 

As a side note, the UU Tier Council understands that there are a plethora of "OP" threats in the tier at this time. This list includes Scizor, Slowking, Rhydon, and possibly a few others. We decided that among this list, Charizard was the most threatening to the tier and should be removed first. A mandatory one month period between bans was instated by the overseeing tier council and thus we will observe the tier over this coming month before making a decision on whether any other pokemon should be banned, and if so, which that is. 

 

Hopefully we can enjoy a tier without the added pressure of Charizard. Please continue discussion in both the open discussion threads and the UU Viability thread as well.