Baton Pass Poll (Remade)

[suigin]

9 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Haze Weezing is really terrible when you want to deal with things like Snorlax because you end up getting parahaxed and you eventually lose. You don't exactly deal with set up either because you end up committing suicide in the process of hazing. I try hazing a SD Heracross (which I anyways lose out to), Gyarados, SD Ursa, it becomes pointless since I'm just gonna keep dying. Can't haze something slower than me like CM Slowbro. Moreover that set allows Gengar to switch in freely apart from the move WoW.

Yes but if baton pass was allowed you'd be able to freely switch into ninjask and haze away their speed boosts, into Scizor, into Umbreon, you name it. You'd gain a lot of utility from Haze if baton pass was allowed. Basically it's an endless circle with people who want it banned.

"Baton Pass is broken because there aren't good enough phazers to deal with it"

"But here's these phazers that can work pretty well against Baton Pass"

"Yeah but these guys don't work well against the top of the top"

"Yeah but they work well against most common Baton Pass users"

"Yeah but there aren't good enough phazers to deal with Baton Pass to allow it"

Etc...

If I think one phazer isn't good enough to deal with every threat then it's a possibility for me to decide if I should run two of them (as I do in showdown and I reached 1800+ elo with an unconventional phazer and a pretty common one in the same team), it's the team builder's decision and ability to define which of the options available to him will earn him more wins. Therefore a move with plenty of counterplay shouldn't be banned.

[NikhilR]

18 minutes ago, suigin said:

Yes but if baton pass was allowed you'd be able to freely switch into ninjask and haze away their speed boosts, into Scizor, into Umbreon, you name it. You'd gain a lot of utility from Haze if baton pass was allowed. Basically it's an endless circle with people who want it banned.

"Baton Pass is broken because there aren't good enough phazers to deal with it"

"But here's these phazers that can work pretty well against Baton Pass"

"Yeah but these guys don't work well against the top of the top"

"Yeah but they work well against most common Baton Pass users"

"Yeah but there aren't good enough phazers to deal with Baton Pass to allow it"

Etc...

If I think one phazer isn't good enough to deal with every threat then it's a possibility for me to decide if I should run two of them (as I do in showdown and I reached 1800+ elo with an unconventional phazer and a pretty common one in the same team), it's the team builder's decision and ability to define which of the options available to him will earn him more wins. Therefore a move with plenty of counterplay shouldn't be banned.

And you just proved my point that Haze on Weezing would ONLY be useful for Baton Pass and nothing else.

[OrangeManiac]

You guys arguing for BP to be unbanned are doing it wrong. Nik is right, Haze is shit in MMO. Roar/Whirlwind has minus priority which means you can get either Taunted or faint. Taunt doesn't work if the opponent is a fast Taunter. You're arguing the same things which were argued in 2014 and that didn't work. You're basically arguing yourself with these arguments. You give the Baton Passer opposers a reason to think "nothing has changed".

 

What has changed, though? Raw power. And by a lot. And this is what should be argued for when wanting to try if BP is that good. Setting up might be much harder than it was. And it wasn't THAT bad before.

Edited May 6, 2016 by OrangeManiac
Writing with phone sucks.

[Gilan]

If I recall correctly, BP was banned when Walling was quite strong, namely blissey and lax. Jolteon was the primary lead and it was common place to see two jolts at the beginning of the battle. T1: sub, sub (or one subs and the other used hidden power). Then T2: Baton Pass. The staleness of this was so bad that people wanted it gone (not to mention it was quite strong against the sp. wall switch in). In the current meta, I don't think this would be viable because of the presence of the Choice Scarf, running jolt and T1 sub/BP is much riskier when you don't know if you are even faster.

 

This is all said without even looking at BP set up teams, so at the very least, BP should be brought back with the complex ban. However, I am still in favor of a full unban, since the viability of BP setup is still up in the air and the community just seems split on "nah I'd rather not waste time, I don't like BP anyways", and "Sure, I think there is a decent chance that BP isn't as strong as it used to be relative to the current meta".

[Guest]

How about changing the effect of Baton Pass exclusively in tournament mode (this has been done with some othe moves as well, e.g. evasion boosting moves):

• Boosted stats and Subs will not be passed in tournament mode.
• Baton Pass can still be used to gain momentum (switch initiative).

 

That's what I would love to see for tournament mode.

[OrangeManiac]

59 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

How about changing the effect of Baton Pass exclusively in tournament mode (this has been done with some othe moves as well, e.g. evasion boosting moves):

• Boosted stats and Subs will not be passed in tournament mode.
• Baton Pass can still be used to gain momentum (switch initiative).

 

That's what I would love to see for tournament mode.

PokeMMO doesn't use custom move mechanics. The mechanics need to be canon at least in some generation.

[Matoka]

 

6 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

PokeMMO doesn't use custom move mechanics. The mechanics need to be canon at least in some generation.

*Other than Payday and Thief for balancing within an MMO environment

[Guest]

7 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

PokeMMO doesn't use custom move mechanics. The mechanics need to be canon at least in some generation.

What about moves increasing or decreasing your or your opponents evasiveness or accuracy?

Let's take Mud-Slap as example: As far as I know, it does deal damage but it does not lower your opponents accuracy in tournament mode.

 

So it's basically a costum move mechanic for balancing PvP, right?

 

Why not do the same thing with Baton Pass?

[NikhilR]

11 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

What about moves increasing or decreasing your or your opponents evasiveness or accuracy?

Let's take Mud-Slap as example: As far as I know, it does deal damage but it does not lower your opponents accuracy in tournament mode.

 

So it's basically a costum move mechanic for balancing PvP, right?

 

Why not do the same thing with Baton Pass?

You cannot increase your evasiveness as it violates the evasion clause.

 

I don't think anyone uses Mud Slap cuz it's a bad move, but people use Muddy Water in doubles and it does lower the opponent's accuracy. The reason why this is allowed is because the effects can be cancelled upon switching out, which means it isn't permanent. 

Edited May 6, 2016 by NikhilR

[Kizhaz]

Technically you're allowed to run a Mean look sand attack Umbreon. I wouldn't recommend but it's allowed

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NikhilR said:

You cannot increase your evasiveness as it violates the evasion clause.

 

I don't think anyone uses Mud Slap cuz it's a bad move, but people use Muddy Water in doubles and it does lower the opponent's accuracy. The reason why this is allowed is because the effects can be cancelled upon switching out, which means it isn't permanent. 

Ok so I was wrong, I thought decreasing accuracy of your opponent does not work in tournament mode either.

 

Anyway, why would it be a problem having a "stat-passing-clause"? Could be justified just like the evasion clause, in my opinion.

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

Ok so I was wrong, I thought decreasing accuracy of your opponent does not work in tournament mode either.

 

Anyway, why would it be a problem having a "stat-passing-clause"? Could be justified just like the evasion clause, in my opinion.

Evasion clause doesn't alter the mechanics of any moves. Not only is it undesirable to alter move mechanics, but it's also probably not feasible. And lastly, what would the point be? To get a neutered baton pass back? Not worth it, imo

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

what would the point be? To get a neutered baton pass back? Not worth it, imo

Baton Pass without passing stats is basically U-Turn/Volt-Switch but deals no damage.

 

Nice to escape from traps, awesome to scout, great for choice-item users and perfect to gain momentum.

 

Absolutely worth it, in my opinion.

[Gunthug]

14 minutes ago, Envinyata said:

Baton Pass without passing stats is basically U-Turn/Volt-Switch but deals no damage.

 

Nice to escape from traps, awesome to scout, great for choice-item users and perfect to gain momentum.

 

Absolutely worth it, in my opinion.

I've made this argument before, but I think there are some notable flaws. First, uturn is susceptible to things like poison point and static, and volt switch is stopped by ground/electric absorbers. Second, our metagame is already extremely offensive with the addition of scarf specs and life orb. I feel like a momentum-only baton pass would only exacerbate that and render stall even more unplayable. 

 

And lastly, it's just probably not feasible. I think the devs would rather focus on the eventual implementation of gen 4 moves than start messing with the mechanics of gen 3 moves 

[jasonoon95]

did they unban baton pass? cuz I just battled someone using ninjask with baton pass in ou matchmaking

[Hex0Gram]

1 minute ago, jasonoon95 said:

did they unban baton pass? cuz I just battled someone using ninjask with baton pass in ou matchmaking

Was wondering the same thing.

[Matoka]

13 hours ago, Hex0Gram said:

Was wondering the same thing.

Wait whaaa?

[DrCraig]

[Hex0Gram]

Guess they fixed it, the bans weren't there yesterday.

[Matoka]

Secretly testing baton pass usage I see. (I know that it wasn't that, probably.)

[Risadex]

Nah, this should be just another matchmaking flaw... like battles during more then 1h, people using OU in a UU tour and stuff like this...

 

@topic How zebra mentioned b4 this game makes baton pass easily to setup due lack of entry hazards like stealth rock or toxic spikes, sometimes i got a BP team in Random battles and I think it is already OP, nothing different for this game too LOL

 

 

Spoiler

But I would like to see anarchy

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Risadex

[mageslay3r]

cmon guys baton pass is not the problem its certain move sets that are the problem there was a reason ingrain+baton pass was banned in 2011 in smogon tournaments

i would be fine with baton pass coming back full force with the changes that ninjask is moved to uber and smergal with baton pass can not hold a salac berry.

the amount of time it takes to set up all your defenses and agility passes would give plenty of time to break through. some one mentioned earlier that bp was banned during a time when walls were pretty unbeatable. this is no longer the case now that there are things like mixed blazikan.

 

and for those who don't know pursuit does get priority over baton pass its when baton pass is used on a switch that u can't out speed it

 

there is enough power with life orb and choice scarf that breaking the chain early is not so bad

 

there are tools now to deal with baton pass chains some of which i will list below which now work fully

spikes(you guys ever subbed after taking 25% of ur hp it freeking sucks)

taunt 

haze

whirlwind

taunt

encore

multi hit moves like double kick(breaks subs)

 

its not unbeatable and should not be gimped directly its time for baton pass to come off the bench guys

Edited August 11, 2016 by mageslay3r

[BurntZebra]

11 hours ago, mageslay3r said:

cmon guys baton pass is not the problem its certain move sets that are the problem there was a reason ingrain+baton pass was banned in 2011 in smogon tournaments

i would be fine with baton pass coming back full force with the changes that ninjask is moved to uber and smergal with baton pass can not hold a salac berry.

the amount of time it takes to set up all your defenses and agility passes would give plenty of time to break through. some one mentioned earlier that bp was banned during a time when walls were pretty unbeatable. this is no longer the case now that there are things like mixed blazikan.

 

and for those who don't know pursuit does get priority over baton pass its when baton pass is used on a switch that u can't out speed it

 

there is enough power with life orb and choice scarf that breaking the chain early is not so bad

 

there are tools now to deal with baton pass chains some of which i will list below which now work fully

spikes(you guys ever subbed after taking 25% of ur hp it freeking sucks)

taunt 

haze

whirlwind

taunt

encore

multi hit moves like double kick(breaks subs)

 

its not unbeatable and should not be gimped directly its time for baton pass to come off the bench guys

I mean the reasons in your post is the reason why we don't allow baton pass. We're not going to complex ban 5 different things to make baton pass less powerful. The three possibilities for baton pass would be 1. it remains banned, 2. it is limited to one user per team (pretty much eliminates baton pass teams), or 3. baton pass as a whole with no restrictions. Even number 2 is barely an option, as evident on smogon's gen 6 baton pass ruling thread and option 3 is most likely a horrible idea and leads to unnecessary centralization in the tier to stop baton pass teams. 

[Mike]

16 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

2. it is limited to one user per team (pretty much eliminates baton pass teams) 

If I remember correctly this has been done before. Basically everyone was dry passing substitutes with jolteon. This would probably be more broken now with the new battle items.

 

In my opinion leave baton pass banned.

[BurntZebra]

42 minutes ago, TheChampionMike said:

If I remember correctly this has been done before. Basically everyone was dry passing substitutes with jolteon. This would probably be more broken now with the new battle items.

 

In my opinion leave baton pass banned.

Yep it has and yeah jolteon was the premier user of it since it was fast enough to spam baton pass risk free and punished people who went to snorlax/blissey as jolteon had a free switch to dugtrio.