[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[KaynineXL]

1 hour ago, Lazaro23 said:

Gosh, lol. GBWeed, we get your point, snorlax is too big of a threat for you to handle, we get that already, but you should stop repeating the same arguments over and over. Like I said earlier, if you wanna counter it with Rhydon, use a berry to heal it's para. If you still think it doesn't solve your problem and you want lax banned, I'll support you for a test ban. But if you keep saying the same senseless thing as to complex ban its move Body slam, then I will say it again, Let's freaking unban all them Ubers and have a proper discussion of what to complex ban on each of them, and I'm sure we'll come to an understanding.
For now it's whether snorlax is healthy or unhealthy, does it need a test ban or not, that is the question, keep the gimmick thingy for your own personal use. 

Lum on Rhydon, you sacrifice a lot of much needed sustain on Rhydon especially when fighting a Weezing when if running lum, you really need some big Rock Blast hits to win the fight, otherwise you really need the lefties sustain.

 

Oh and by the way, I feel like your posts you are talking like you've already confirmed you're right. You really aren't, nobody is right until we try the suggestions, some of which we'll never try and see.

[XPLOZ]

 

9 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

Gosh, lol. GBWeed, we get your point, snorlax is too big of a threat for you to handle, we get that already, but you should stop repeating the same arguments over and over. Like I said earlier, if you wanna counter it with Rhydon, use a berry to heal it's para. If you still think it doesn't solve your problem and you want lax banned, I'll support you for a test ban. But if you keep saying the same senseless thing as to complex ban its move Body slam, then I will say it again, Let's freaking unban all them Ubers and have a proper discussion of what to complex ban on each of them, and I'm sure we'll come to an understanding.
For now it's whether snorlax is healthy or unhealthy, does it need a test ban or not, that is the question, keep the gimmick thingy for your own personal use. 

 

I'm gonna be a bit savage here but we fucking get your point too, we should run a shitty lum berry Rhydon to handle the situation and that's all, lol. What gb says makes sense, and lots of people seem to agree (look at the likes), at least it makes more sense than your comments :

"If you wanna see Lax banned, I'm in, test ban it and lets see the meta becomes shit like before". wtf ?

 

[Spaintakula]

8 hours ago, gbwead said:

Edit: Crunch on Tyranitar is fundamental in making some movesets viable unlike Body Slam on Snorlax.

Just have to say something about that. Most of it is from using ttar in different metas, but I've never ever built a ttar and said to myself "I'll always use crunch, so 2 more for filler".

 

7 hours ago, XPLOZ said:

I'm gonna be a bit savage here but we fucking get your point too, we should run a shitty lum berry Rhydon to handle the situation and that's all, lol. What gb says makes sense, and lots of people seem to agree (look at the likes), at least it makes more sense than your comments :

"If you wanna see Lax banned, I'm in, test ban it and lets see the meta becomes shit like before". wtf ?

^I just gotta say that's spot on. But also because running a berry isn't in no way handling it. Just a temporary fail-safe.

[DoubleJ]

First things first guys, we need usage statistics to help better visualize Snorlax's impact on the meta. Then we can have the discussion whether it is uncompetitive, unhealthy, or just fine as it is. 

 

1. Usage statistics indicate that Snorlax has limited the diversity in the tier; this is visualized by less pokemon being used in OU. I like to use a cut-off of 10% and count how many pokes are above that line to determine this. 

 

2. Is Snorlax uncompetitive? Does Snorlax give an unfair advantage for its users and is it too good not to use?

 

3. Is Snorlax unhealthy for the tier? Repeat step one and get ready for a shit fest in regards to discussion. 

 

 

Without usage statistics for comparison, I personally think Snorlax is fine as is. Do I worry about Snorlax when I play OU? Certainly, but I have methods of abusing it and countering it. In the grand scheme of a match, Snorlax isn't any more effective than a Chansey against me, but that's just my own personal opinion. I am also supported in my argument that Snorlax isn't really uncompetitive since it only has ~40% usage. Other pokemon that were borderline uncompetitive had >50% usage. 

We can argue and argue, but I like to focus on numbers to help determine the impact of a certain Pokemon. 

 

In addition, the precedent has already been set that there will not be any complex bans in PokeMMO. The tier council has stood by this on countless occasions and developers aren't in favor of this either (at least from my experience in the past). Let's go back to ground one and work from there before getting buried in all these tangential arguments. 

[XPLOZ]

A thing to take into account is that you can't really compare usage statistics with what we saw in the past. Now, the "Vermilion battles" (purists will say Viridian) are part of the stats, which wasn't the case before. Thereby, you can see Umbreon at 15%, and this Pokemon is arguably bad as fuck in the current meta.

If you're looking at Rounds3+ of tournaments, you will almost never see an Umbreon, and I would be very surprised if Lax wasn't used 80%+ of the time.

Winning stats would be interesting here.

[Aard]

36 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Snorlax isn't any more effective than a Chansey against me, but that's just my own personal opinion. I am also supported in my argument that Snorlax isn't really uncompetitive since it only has ~40% usage. Other pokemon that were borderline uncompetitive had >50% usage.

I agree with you on some of this, but I highlighted the parts I don't agree with.  Snorlax is nothing like chansey besides high hp and spdef.  Comparing them is really silly.  I'd like to know what you could possibly be using that makes Snorlax no more effective than Chansey.  From my experience it is much more effective. 

 

Some examples:  A physical arcanine beats chansey, can't touch snorlax and gets set up on. A calm mind Alakazam with recover can beat chansey, it can't survive too many body slams.  Starmie can switch out on chansey, but not on choice band pursuit snorlax.  Fighting mons can 1hko Chansey, most 2hko snorlax especially after curse.  There's really not much at all that deals with both equally as well.  Even something like a choice band Rhydon is worse against Snorlax than Chansey because Snorlax can actually paralyze it.  Maybe dusclops, but dusclops doesn't really beat Chansey or Snorlax, its just prone to get in a stall war it outright loses if a curse snorlax has two attacking moves.  The glaring difference with Snorlax is that it can set up and do damage, Chansey can't.  They are nothing like each other.  Comparison is no better than saying Dusclops and Gengar are dealt with in the same way because they are ghost types.  Its just not true.

 

Your percentage thing is also flawed.  I would argue first that how hard it is to breed a pokemon impacts usage rate.  Something like Gengar or Dugtrio is incredibly easy.  Snorlax is harder, you absolutely need 4 of the 6 stats to be good whereas on the other things you only need two to be good.  Not to mention its a rarer catch.  Also, measuring the usage by itself isn't great when you yourself want to compare its impact on the game.  Its usage should be contrasted with the next highest things in usage.  40% is quite a big jump from the next best thing which is quite a big jump from the rest of the tier.  Saying 40% isn't over-centralization because other things that over-centralized had 50% is kind of a bad argument.  You just set an arbitrary cutoff and called anything above it broken because previous broken things had  that usage.  That's like saying because you crashed your car at 50 mph, driving at 40 mph must be safe. Better logic please.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aard

[DoubleJ]

@Aard Well that's why there are speed limits...

 

But regardless, remember that I said Snorlax is no bigger obstacle than Chansey in my own personal opinion. Chansey flat out walls my special attackers, while Snorlax is pressured far more by them. This means I don't necessarily need to switch every time Snorlax switches into my Jolteon for instance. Again personal opinion don't look much deeper than that please. 

 

If Snorlax has 40% usage while everything else had say 30 or less wouldn't that ensure greater diversity throughout the tier? I like that prospect rather than Chansey having 50% usage and pokes like Jolt and Alakazam not seeing much at all. 

 

This is where the grey area begins so please don't try and get nitpicky here. We need the old usage stats to actually make any definitive statements. 

[Aard]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

@Aard Well that's why there are speed limits...

 

But regardless, remember that I said Snorlax is no bigger obstacle than Chansey in my own personal opinion. Chansey flat out walls my special attackers, while Snorlax is pressured far more by them. This means I don't necessarily need to switch every time Snorlax switches into my Jolteon for instance. Again personal opinion don't look much deeper than that please. 

 

If Snorlax has 40% usage while everything else had say 30 or less wouldn't that ensure greater diversity throughout the tier? I like that prospect rather than Chansey having 50% usage and pokes like Jolt and Alakazam not seeing much at all. 

 

This is where the grey area begins so please don't try and get nitpicky here. We need the old usage stats to actually make any definitive statements. 

In my opinion the sky is green..don't read much more into it than that.  I'm tired of people saying opinions can't be wrong, they can.  Especially when its only labelled as an opinion in order to stave off criticism.  Your opinion isn't worth putting in a ban discussion unless it has some justification behind it.  Yours doesn't.

 

A specs Jolteon can't even 3hko the standard Curselax.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 157-186 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

A body slam from any Snorlax 2hko's.

0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 151-178 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Earthquake is a notable possible 1hko 0 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 236-278 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

With a little bit of attack investment it does 1hko.

 

The most powerful Jolteon can't do much of anything and risks getting set up on if the Snorlax curses one or two times then rests with a Chesto berry.  Not to mention they know you are locked into thunderbolt after the first round of damage and can at any point switch to something that is immune and get a free turn to set up with that. If the Jolteon doesn't have specs a curselax set just outright demolishes it and gets as many boosts as it wants.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 135-160 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 23.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 105-124 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Leaving either of those in on Snorlax would be nothing short of insane.

 

And Chansey doesn't actually do that much better.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 159-187 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Seismic toss is a 3hko but you know what move Chansey is probably going to use so switching is easy.  Its either seismic toss or toxic.  With Snorlax it could be curse, a banded attack, a predicted move like fire punch, pursuit to almost kill your Jolteon.  Jolteon is terrible against either of them, but it is worse against Snorlax. 

 

This is a tangent, but interestingly a non-specs jolteon with toxic and wish might actually be able to stall out a Chansey lacking toxic until it forced a switch due to poison damage. Sub and wish would prevent toxic Chansey and might would get close to pp stalling it out.  Sure, these aren't good sets, but Jolteon does have two free move slots to basically put any terrible move in if its hidden power isn't any good so its not completely absurd.  Its kind of funny the example you bring up does terrible against both Chansey and Snorlax, but actually has a slightly better chance of beating Chansey.  It always loses to Snorlax, the only question is if Snorlax can be effective after killing Jolteon with the answer being yes unless Jolteon is specs.   

 

Chansey isn't going to magically jump to 50% if Snorlax is banned.  They aren't the same poke, they don't work similarly, even if they did there is no way to predict that and use it as an argument in this ban discussion.  The answer might just be to suspect Chansey if that was an issue.  Also, alakazam with calm mind and recover can actually give Chansey trouble whereas Snorlax just kills it.  Trickspecs Alakazam will always cripple Chansey, but won't cripple Snorlax if Snorlax is banded.  Snorlax can pursuit trap so switching out isn't always an option either.  So again, bad example.  Alakazam does much better against Chansey than Snorlax in multiple situations.

 

My point with the usage stats is that it is a bad way to go about determining what is broken because to a certain degree they are arbitrary.  If Snorlax has considerably higher usage stat than anything else then that is an indicator it MIGHT be broken.  Comparing Snorlax to other previously broken things doesn't even do that anything and is bad logic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aard

[DoubleJ]

10 minutes ago, Aard said:

In my opinion the sky is green..don't read much more into it than that.  I'm tired of people saying opinions can't be wrong, they can.  Especially when its only labelled as an opinion in order to stave off criticism.  Your opinion isn't worth putting in a ban discussion unless it has some justification behind it.  Yours doesn't.

 

 

A specs Jolteon can't even 3hko the standard Curselax.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 157-186 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

A body slam from any Snorlax 2hko's.

0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 151-178 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Earthquake is a notable possible 1hko 0 Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 236-278 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

With a little bit of attack investment it does 1hko.

 

The most powerful Jolteon can't do much of anything and risks getting set up on if the Snorlax curses one or two times then rests with a Chesto berry.  If the Jolteon doesn't have specs a curse set demolishes it. 

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 135-160 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 23.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 105-124 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Leaving either of those in on Snorlax would be nothing short of insane.

 

And Chansey doesn't actually do that much better.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 159-187 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Seismic toss is a 3hko but you know what move Chansey is probably going to use so switching is easy.  Its either seismic toss or toxic.  With Snorlax it could be curse, a banded attack, a predicted move like fire punch, pursuit to almost kill your Jolteon.  Jolteon is terrible against either of them, but it is worse against Snorlax. 

 

This is a tangent, but interestingly a non-specs jolteon with toxic and wish might actually be able to stall out a Chansey lacking toxic until it forced a switch due to poison damage. Sub and wish would prevent toxic Chansey and might would get close to pp stalling it out.  Sure, these aren't good sets, but Jolteon does have two free move slots to basically put any terrible move in if its hidden power isn't any good so its not completely absurd.  Its kind of funny the example you bring up does terrible against both Chansey and Snorlax, but actually has a slightly better chance of beating Chansey.  It always loses to Snorlax, the only question is if Snorlax can be effective after killing Jolteon with the answer being yes unless Jolteon is specs.   

 

Chansey isn't going to magically jump to 50% if Snorlax is banned.  They aren't the same poke, they don't work similarly, even if they did there is no way to predict that and use it as an argument in this ban discussion.  The answer might just be to suspect Chansey if that was an issue.  Also, alakazam with calm mind and recover can actually give Chansey trouble whereas Snorlax just kills it.  Trickspecs Alakazam will always cripple Chansey, but won't cripple Snorlax if Snorlax is banded.  Snorlax can pursuit trap so switching out isn't always an option either.  So again, bad example.  Alakazam does much better against Chansey than Snorlax in multiple situations.

 

My point with the usage stats is that it is a bad way to go about determining what is broken because to a certain degree they are arbitrary.  If Snorlax has considerably higher usage stat than anything else then that is an indicator it MIGHT be broken.  Comparing Snorlax to other previously broken things doesn't even do that anything and is bad logic.

 

Disregarding your statements about my opinion, you make a convincing argument and a valid one; Jolteon cannot beat Snorlax, or Chansey, in a 1v1 situation with both at full health. What Chansey can do better than Snorlax is stand up to special attackers throughout the course of a match, which is evident in your calcs. It can fall back on instant recovery (Softboiled) or stall with Wish + Protect, and also remove any status with Natural Cure simply by switching out. It is true that it is stopped by Trick users, which means it isn't immune to special attackers in general. Snorlax on the other hand has a harder time standing up to special attackers over the course of a match because it isn't as good of a special sponge and it relies on Rest as recovery. Especially Curselax, which doesn't have the benefit of running Pursuit which poops on almost any special attacker. It is also troubled by Trick users just as equally as Chansey. 

 

Now with that said, without Snorlax in the tier, Chansey did have close to or over 50% usage and discussion was made to actually ban Chansey. Instead we brought Snorlax back down for testing and it was determined to be safe (at that time). 

 

Usage stats are a telling story though. They help to identify the diversity in a tier, which is how many pokemon are actually viable and being used at a substantial rate. In the history of PokeMMO, 40% usage is actually fairly low in regards to the top threats in the game. Maybe this is skewed by stats being taken from matchmaking where anyone in the game regardless of their experience, can play. It would be much more reasonable in my opinion to observe usage statistics from tournament play, rather than all of matchmaking. 

 

[Spaintakula]

Chansey isn't going to magically jump to 50% if Snorlax is banned.  They aren't the same poke, they don't work similarly, even if they did there is no way to predict that and use it as an argument in this ban discussion.  The answer might just be to suspect Chansey if that was an issue.  Also, alakazam with calm mind and recover can actually give Chansey trouble whereas Snorlax just kills it.  Trickspecs Alakazam will always cripple Chansey, but won't cripple Snorlax if Snorlax is banded.  Snorlax can pursuit trap so switching out isn't always an option either.  So again, bad example.  Alakazam does much better against Chansey than Snorlax in multiple situations.

 

My point with the usage stats is that it is a bad way to go about determining what is broken because to a certain degree they are arbitrary.  If Snorlax has considerably higher usage stat than anything else then that is an indicator it MIGHT be broken.  Comparing Snorlax to other previously broken things doesn't even do that anything and is bad logic.

Ehhh quoted this mostly because it summarizes what you want to say. Zam with cm/recover is susceptible to both of chansey's status moves, therefore, it can't really deal with it all that good. Twave destroys it's sweeping abilities, and toxic will just make it lose enough health to either switch off or die while chansey's healing off the damage. Which brings me to the other point. JJ already said it that chansey's able to sponge more hits because of it's longevity on how it recovers that damage. It has access to 2 amazing moves that either A), straight out heal you half, or B, which I think is worse in this alakazam case, Protect and wish, and stall you to death while you struggle to do much. Snorlax on the other hand, takes around the same damage I believe? And true, it can hit back, but it can't recover the health loss from repetitive hits like that unlike chansey can. Also, stats usage are a great way to give the TC a good idea of what might and might not be broken, and if something is at 50% or so, then yeah, it'd give everyone food for thought if that mon is/should be where it currently is.

[Aard]

19 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Disregarding your statements about my opinion, you make a convincing argument and a valid one; Jolteon cannot beat Snorlax, or Chansey, in a 1v1 situation with both at full health. What Chansey can do better than Snorlax is stand up to special attackers throughout the course of a match, which is evident in your calcs. It can fall back on instant recovery (Softboiled) or stall with Wish + Protect, and also remove any status with Natural Cure simply by switching out. It is true that it is stopped by Trick users, which means it isn't immune to special attackers in general. Snorlax on the other hand has a harder time standing up to special attackers over the course of a match because it isn't as good of a special sponge and it relies on Rest as recovery. Especially Curselax, which doesn't have the benefit of running Pursuit which poops on almost any special attacker. It is also troubled by Trick users just as equally as Chansey. 

 

Now with that said, without Snorlax in the tier, Chansey did have close to or over 50% usage and discussion was made to actually ban Chansey. Instead we brought Snorlax back down for testing and it was determined to be safe (at that time). 

 

Usage stats are a telling story though. They help to identify the diversity in a tier, which is how many pokemon are actually viable and being used at a substantial rate. In the history of PokeMMO, 40% usage is actually fairly low in regards to the top threats in the game. Maybe this is skewed by stats being taken from matchmaking where anyone in the game regardless of their experience, can play. It would be much more reasonable in my opinion to observe usage statistics from tournament play, rather than all of matchmaking. 

 

Now this argument is a bit weird.

"Dealing with Snorlax is like dealing with Chansey"

"No, its not.  They have completely different playstyles. Here's some things Snorlax can deal with that Chansey can't."

"But Jolteon deals with Snorlax better."

"Not really."

"But Chansey's playstyle is different than Snorlax's.  It has more sustainability and can switch in more often."

 

Yeah, that's true, but then your original point that dealing with Chansey is like dealing with Snorlax is invalid.  People switch Chansey directly in wheras Snorlax is more common on no risk switches.  Playing against the two is completely different.  But then again, it was your opinion that dealing with them is the same so maybe its allowed to be wrong.  You called it an opinion, so that covers your bases.  For risk of this becoming circular, I'm not going to talk about Chansey anymore.

 

I don't believe Chansey was at 50% usage unless some items and moves were missing at the time.  I don't think Snorlax caused it.  I don't know the history, I'm too new, but that can't be the whole story.

 

And as far as judging things by usage, its just not a good idea.  Even on the simulators where getting any pokemon you want is instant, judging if something is broken by usage does not work as an argument.  Usage is a good reason to start a discussion.  "This is at 50% usage, discuss if its broken".  Usage isn't a reason for something being broken.  "This is at 50% usage, must be broken.".  Furthermore, "This is only at 40% usage, must not be broken." is even more absurd.  There are mechanisms behind whether something is broken, usage is a symptom, not a cause.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, Aard said:

And as far as judging things by usage, its just not a good idea.  Even on the simulators where getting any pokemon you want is instant, judging if something is broken by usage does not work as an argument.  Usage is a good reason to start a discussion.  "This is at 50% usage, discuss if its broken".  Usage isn't a reason for something being broken.  "This is at 50% usage, must be broken.".  Furthermore, "This is only at 40% usage, must not be broken." is even more absurd.  There are mechanisms behind whether something is broken, usage is a symptom, not a cause.   

8 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Also, stats usage are a great way to give the TC a good idea of what might and might not be broken, and if something is at 50% or so, then yeah, it'd give everyone food for thought if that mon is/should be where it currently is.

 

 

[DoubleJ]

13 minutes ago, Aard said:

Now this argument is a bit weird.

"Dealing with Snorlax is like dealing with Chansey"

"No, its not.  They have completely different playstyles. Here's some things Snorlax can deal with that Chansey can't."

"But Jolteon deals with Snorlax better."

"Not really."

"But Chansey's playstyle is different than Snorlax's.  It has more sustainability and can switch in more often."

 

Yeah, that's true, but then your original point that dealing with Chansey is like dealing with Snorlax is invalid.  People switch Chansey directly in wheras Snorlax is more common on no risk switches.  Playing against the two is completely different.  But then again, it was your opinion that dealing with them is the same so maybe its allowed to be wrong.  You called it an opinion, so that covers your bases.  For risk of this becoming circular, I'm not going to talk about Chansey anymore.

The highlighted statement is false. I did not state that "dealing" with them was the same, what I was inferring is that Snorlax doesn't have any more impact throughout a match than Chansey, which is our alternative special wall. I agree though that this isn't fundamental to the overall discussion and so we can let this argument rest.  

 

Quote

I don't believe Chansey was at 50% usage unless some items and moves were missing at the time.  I don't think Snorlax caused it.  I don't know the history, I'm too new, but that can't be the whole story.

When Chansey had 50% usage, Chansey was too good not to use because it handled absolutely every special attacker in the game, unless someone used a Wish + Heal Bell Jolteon. Discussion was made to possibly ban it, but instead the tier council decided to test Snorlax back in the tier. Discussion was intense, but it was deemed safe for reintroduction. I cannot recall whether we had Life Ball, Swift Band, and Special Choice Band when Snorlax was reintroduced, but a part of me thinks they were because that provided special attackers an opportunity to beat most Snorlax sets which sacrifice special bulk for attack power. 

 

Quote

 

And as far as judging things by usage, its just not a good idea.  Even on the simulators where getting any pokemon you want is instant, judging if something is broken by usage does not work as an argument.  Usage is a good reason to start a discussion.  "This is at 50% usage, discuss if its broken".  Usage isn't a reason for something being broken.  "This is at 50% usage, must be broken.".  Furthermore, "This is only at 40% usage, must not be broken." is even more absurd.  There are mechanisms behind whether something is broken, usage is a symptom, not a cause.   

 

I'm not saying that usage determines "brokenness". What I'm saying is that usage can reveal the health of the current meta indirectly by viewing the variability in the pokemon being used. If there are only 15 pokemon with greater than 10% usage than the health of the meta is at jeopardy, and this is evidence that there must be centralization regarding one or more pokemon in the tier. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by DoubleJ

[Aard]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

I am also supported in my argument that Snorlax isn't really uncompetitive since it only has ~40% usage. Other pokemon that were borderline uncompetitive had >50% usage. 

We can argue and argue, but I like to focus on numbers to help determine the impact of a certain Pokemon. 

 

17 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Also, stats usage are a great way to give the TC a good idea of what might and might not be broken, and if something is at 50% or so, then yeah, it'd give everyone food for thought if that mon is/should be where it currently is.

 

Those two are very different.  The first one is saying usage can determine what should be banned whereas the second one is saying that usage is a good place to start when considering what should be discussed.

 

And as far as the Chansey stuff, Chansey is different than Snorlax, I get that.  That's why they are both viable and one isn't outright better.  But DoubleJ originally said they are dealt with the same way.  That's not true.  Then he said his Jolteon deals with Snorlax.  Which isn't true.  Chansey and Snorlax both eat Jolteon and Alakazam for dinner.  Maybe I shouldn't have gone as far to say Snorlax deals with it better  than Chansey, but either way I'm not wrong about anything that pertains to the ban discussion.

 

If someone's argument on why Snorlax shouldn't be banned is that it can't continually switch in, then that is at least a good argument.  Saying that Snorlax only has 40% usage instead of 50% is a bad argument, saying dealing with Snorlax is the same as dealing with Chansey is a bad argument. 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aard

[Evlgoon]

i see everyone saying that snorlax has no counter but with a wall like milotic you can absolutely scout whatever set it has without risking much. And even though its a gimick and not used impish machamp is absolutely a counter to snorlax. 

[DoubleJ]

9 minutes ago, Aard said:

 

 

Those two are very different.  The first one is saying usage can determine what should be banned whereas the second one is saying that usage is a good place to start when considering what should be discussed.

 

 

You're right those are different statements, but ultimately lead to the same point. My statement builds upon the premise that something that is uncompetitive should have much higher usage than 40%, which is similar to Spaint saying that usage stats can help determine what may or may not be broken.  

 

 

[Aard]

20 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

You're right those are different statements, but ultimately lead to the same point. My statement builds upon the premise that something that is uncompetitive should have much higher usage than 40%, which is similar to Spaint saying that usage stats can help determine what may or may not be broken.  

 

 

No, they don't lead to the same point at all.  Try to actually listen this time so you get it.

 

First statement:

If you are going at 50 mph then you are probably speeding.  A police officer should check the speed limit and decide whether to give you a ticket.

 

Your statement:

If you are going at 40 mph then you are not speeding.

 

You see the logical jump there?  You see how the second one doesn't make any sense given the first piece of information?  People say stupid things when discussing what to ban on the simulators, but never this bad.  Greninja was third in usage behind Landorus-T and Ferrothorn when people voted on if it should be banned.  No one used arguments about its usage when making the decision.  I didn't think it should be banned but I got outvoted.  Anyway, something being at "only" 40% usage isn't a valid reason for leaving it in the tier.  Usage is a symptom that can be used to indicate whether something might be broken.  You could still be sick if you don't have a fever, but if you have a fever its a good indication that you are sick.

 

I think I should quit talking to you and come back if I want to discuss points like the guy above made about Milotic and Machamp doing well against it.  That's the kind of stuff that should be in the discussion along with damage calcs to back it up, not some made up cutoff of 50% or arguing about the differences Snorlax has with Chansey.

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aard

[DoubleJ]

3 minutes ago, Aard said:

No, they don't lead to the same point at all.  Try to actually listen this time so you get it.

 

First statement:

If you are going at 50 mph then you are probably speeding.  A police officer should check the speed limit and decide whether to give you a ticket.

 

Your statement:

If you are going at 40 mph then you are not speeding.

 

You see the logical jump there?  You see how the second one doesn't make any sense given the first piece of information?  People say stupid things when discussing what to ban on the simulators, but never this bad.  Greninja was third in usage behind Landorus-T and Ferrothorn when people voted on if it should be banned.  No one used arguments about its usage when making the decision.  I didn't think it should be banned but I got outvoted.  Anyway, something being at "only" 40% usage isn't a valid reason for leaving it in the tier.  Usage is a symptom that can be used to indicate whether something might be broken.  You could still be sick if you don't have a fever, but if you have a fever its a good indication that you are sick.

I've tried to be respectful toward you, so I would appreciate the same in return. Nevertheless, this is where our argument becomes circular. Never have I once said that something with 40% usage could not be banned for being uncompetitive. What I had said, is that something with 40% usage likely isn't uncompetitive. 

 

You've also made it seem that my argument is to keep Snorlax in the tier, but this isn't true. My argument was made to curve the discussion away from a complex ban on Body Slam, which in my opinion won't improve the situation of the tier. We need to take a different approach and that would be to investigate usage to better determine whether Snorlax is actually unhealthy or not, similarly to what Spaint said in his statement. 

[Aard]

3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

I've tried to be respectful toward you, so I would appreciate the same in return. Nevertheless, this is where our argument becomes circular. Never have I once said that something with 40% usage could not be banned for being uncompetitive. What I had said, is that something with 40% usage likely isn't uncompetitive. 

 

You've also made it seem that my argument is to keep Snorlax in the tier, but this isn't true. My argument was made to curve the discussion away from a complex ban on Body Slam, which in my opinion won't improve the situation of the tier. We need to take a different approach and that would be to investigate usage to better determine whether Snorlax is actually unhealthy or not, similarly to what Spaint said in his statement. 

I don't agree with interpreting usage like that.  Just because something that was broken had 50% usage doesn't mean something with 40% usage is likely not broken.  That's the same fallacy and its annoying.  At least use other things that had 40% as examples if you are going down that road.  The idea is still problematic, but it at least makes some sense like that.

 

I do agree the complex ban isn't the right direction. 

7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

1. Usage statistics indicate that Snorlax has limited the diversity in the tier; this is visualized by less pokemon being used in OU. I like to use a cut-off of 10% and count how many pokes are above that line to determine this. 

 

2. Is Snorlax uncompetitive? Does Snorlax give an unfair advantage for its users and is it too good not to use?

 

3. Is Snorlax unhealthy for the tier? Repeat step one and get ready for a shit fest in regards to discussion. 

Step two and three seem fine in your plan but step one doesn't make sense to me. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aard

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

I am also supported in my argument that Snorlax isn't really uncompetitive since it only has ~40% usage. Other pokemon that were borderline uncompetitive had >50% usage.

Usage can help us determine if a pokemon is unhealthy or if a pokemon is UBER. However, I really doubt it can show if a pokemon is uncompetitive. 

If something is RNG based uncompetitive, it is in the best of the noobs to abuse that something. Let's say a noob's skills allows the noob to reach 40% win rate. Let's say hypothetically the same noob using something that is RNG based uncompetitive brings his win rate to 50%. The noob will obviously start using that uncompetitive strategy. However, if a good player has 60% win rate thanks to his skills, he has no incentive to start playing something RNG based uncompetitive? Ultimetaly, when it comes to RNG based uncompetitive strategy, I don't think usage really helps us since everything balances itself out. However, it doesn't change the fact that the outcome of duel should be determined by skills rather than luck. 

 

What are the other pokemons that were borderline uncompetitive with >50% usage? I became a TC member in July 2015 and I don't recall any of these other pokemons. Are you talking about 2013 or 2014? The only discussion the TC had about anything being potentially uncompetitive is the Linoone + Gardevoir + Magneton combo. Even Dugtrio was banned for being unhealthy and not uncompetitive. 

The only uncompetitive ban we ever had to my knowledge is Wobbuffet and that was because Wobbuffet was deemed uncompetitive for invalidating certain element of plays (trapping). We never had a RNG based uncompetitive ban.

 

As for the Snorlax/Blissey meta when we saw over 50% usage on these pokemons, let's keep in mind that the usage gathering system back then was quite different to the one used now. Umbreon would never sit at 15% in the old gathering system. I really think we should not make the uncompetitive discussion about usage. The unhealthy discussion can obviously get into usage, but going that far back will not help us considering all the things that have changed.

 

5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Now with that said, without Snorlax in the tier, Chansey did have close to or over 50% usage and discussion was made to actually ban Chansey. Instead we brought Snorlax back down for testing and it was determined to be safe (at that time). 

I think Chansey was always closer to 40% than 50%. I am uncertain about this given that the usage of that time is no longer available it seems. However, I have found, in the TC section, Orange's write up about Chansey where he explains why Chansey will not be banned. Back then Chansey had 42.65% usage and was the second most used pokemon of OU. I don't think Chansey has ever beating Metagross in usage and Metagross has never went over 50%.

 

5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

When Chansey had 50% usage, Chansey was too good not to use because it handled absolutely every special attacker in the game, unless someone used a Wish + Heal Bell Jolteon. Discussion was made to possibly ban it, but instead the tier council decided to test Snorlax back in the tier. Discussion was intense, but it was deemed safe for reintroduction. I cannot recall whether we had Life Ball, Swift Band, and Special Choice Band when Snorlax was reintroduced, but a part of me thinks they were because that provided special attackers an opportunity to beat most Snorlax sets which sacrifice special bulk for attack power. 

The Chansey discussion was started by yourself DoubleJ as soon as Gengar was banned from OU in fall 2015. Chansey's usage was not at all at his peak at that time. As for Snorlax, it was reintroduce in OU because we had a reset following the reintroduction of the items you stated. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

@gbwead The Chansey discussion also lasted like 8 months and endured a couple meta changes. It would still be nice to have the old usage for comparison sake and to determine if Chansey ever saw 50% usage, even though that point is somewhat mute. I might be bogged down with the thought of doubles usage on my brain, but I'm pretty sure Chansey got that high. 

 

Thanks for clearing up the Lax part though, my memory eludes me. 

 

[Gunthug]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

@gbwead The Chansey discussion also lasted like 8 months and endured a couple meta changes. It would still be nice to have the old usage for comparison sake and to determine if Chansey ever saw 50% usage, even though that point is somewhat mute. I might be bogged down with the thought of doubles usage on my brain, but I'm pretty sure Chansey got that high. 

 

Thanks for clearing up the Lax part though, my memory eludes me. 

 

I believe the alarming chansey usage you're referring to was PSL usage - at one point, I heard it was as high as 80% in PSL OU. Think handled all usage for PSL back then though and I don't recall ever SEEING it that high, but I think he mentioned it

[DoubleJ]

3 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I believe the alarming chansey usage you're referring to was PSL usage - at one point, I heard it was as high as 80% in PSL OU. Think handled all usage for PSL back then though and I don't recall ever SEEING it that high, but I think he mentioned it

Was that when Chansey was UU though?

[Gunthug]

27 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Was that when Chansey was UU though?

Yeah it might have been

[pachima]

Best discussion ever, still we need to get rid of this bslam on snorlax. Like gbwead said, that huge paralyze chance is not in your hands, you can´t do anything to stop it (No, lum berries are not worth most of the cases)

Winning/losing by some factor that you can´t control is highly unhealthy. OHKO moves like fissure or sheer cold have literally the same chance of body slam paralyze and they are banned for a good reason. Despite bslam´s paralyze not being a decisive factor like those moves, it still is a huge problem in a pokemon with so many switches in like lax.

Without bslam snorlax is much less rng dependant. And even there, lax has the stats to be a worthy pokemon for the meta, however without the pressure(too huge) on paralyze chance, the opponent has choices for checking and countering it like any other mon.

So, unless u are willing to go 252 hp/def ampharos to not get paralyze, a complex ban on lax would be the best.