Senile
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Posts posted by Senile
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so, I don't have a complete list or anything, but as far as I was told/am aware, here's what works and doesn't work:
Most moves work, with a few notable exceptions, such as Foul Play, Dragon Tail, & Growth no longer working.
No Gen 4 or 5 Abilities or Items AFAIK work. Magic Guard, Regen, Technician, etc.; Pretty sure none of that works. Specs/Scarf/Orb still work obviously, but Eviolite, Sash, Gems, etc. don't work.
- RysPicz, OrangeManiac and Instagramlol
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28 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:
Yup, Dragon + Ground covers everything excluding Bronzong in OU. If you need speed for the sweep, hit that DD. If you need power to wreck a wall, hit that SD. If you can somehow go forr both, do it.
Uhhh, Skarmory? Also, Mold Breaker makes Haxorus EQ hit Bronzong.
Not that there's anything wrong with Double Dance sets, but c'mon, how could you forget godbird?
Edit:
Also, you REALLY shouldn't assume Dream World abilities on any of these things, since they aren't expected to come soon, and on stronger OU pokemon, might never come out at all. -
7 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:
So let me get this straight, we only have one viable stealth rocks setter in OU because we don't have a stealth rocks tutor or tm? Ferrothorn obtains it through breeding with one of the minerals. Aside from that Golem, Steelix, and Gigalith are likely falling to the lower tiers. Gigalith could be seen on Trick Room dubs teams, but that's hard to build around because of the few good Trick Room setters we have. Speculating here, but we're likely either going to have overpowered Dragons or Ferrothorn with 80% usage.
#devspleasepatch
I mean, the tier lists here we made on the assumption that the relevant abilities/moves/items actually work. We don't have SR on much right now, but we should soon, as we're assuming the tutors should come in relatively soon.
Also, praise ferrothorn.
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4 minutes ago, Toast said:
reason for bisharp going BL?
Defog actually having good distribution now + no team preview, along with the fact that Bisharp kind of tears apart everything in UU with a +2 Boost is a bit much. It punishes defog insanely hard, with pretty much no good switchins.
It was already probably gonna be a pretty solid UU pokemon beforehand IMO, but it's interaction with Defog is incredibly shitty for the tier.
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6 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:
So why tf are Slaking, typhlosion, Sceptile, Zangoose, etc NU ???
How is TT gonna be ?because they're not good enough to be in any higher tiers.
The only one in that list I think could actually ever be problematic is BD Zangoose on a good day, but I'm pretty doubtful.
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dittoing literally everything everyone else has said, FEAR is as close to being problematic as fucking subseed jumpluff lmao
- FNTCZ, FuzzyRegirock, DoubleJ and 3 others
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1 minute ago, Mnemosyne said:
Based on what is Tentacruel NU now? I don't so any reason why Tentacruel would be bad.
If I look at Smogon at the BW tier I see Tentacruel being OU. I know this tier is maybe a bit different but is that much different??
The literal only reason Tentacruel is OU in Gen 5 is because it's one of the only reliable spinners, (Starmie/Excadrill are pretty much your only other options, and Excadrill was banned for a long time) has pretty good passive recovery in Rain with Sludge + Rain Dish, and it's typing lets it answer some scary threats, such as Keldeo, Keldeo, and of course, Keldeo.
Just look at it's literal only listed set in BW OU; Tentacruel's best use by far is as a spinner. But if we're getting widespread Defog usage, along with a metagame where Tentacruel's recovery is worse than ever, as well as the things it can check the best not even being out in the metagame to be a threat, it's suddenly a lot less relevant. Not only does Defog make Tenta super irrelevant in OU, but there are a TON of good Defoggers in UU now giving it massive competition.
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The lists have been changed again, and this is (probably) gonna be the final iteration before the update actually comes out. The main reason for a good amount of these changes has to do with the new addition of Defog as a tutor move, giving it actual distribution, but there's other changes that were made before the Defog tutor thing and never put on this public list.
Changes:
Hippowdon Nonexistent -> OU
Zoroark UU -> Nonexistent
Galvantula NU -> UU
Mienshao UU -> OU
Gliscor UU -> OU
Gligar NU -> UU
Forretress OU -> UU
Tentacruel UU -> NU
Mismagius UU -> NU
Mantine NU -> UU
Bisharp UU -> BL
Honchkrow NU -> UU
Pretty sure this covers everything that's changed from the old lists.
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So, you're right that in later gens (noticeable in gen 5, but gets really bad in gen 6+) that team matchups become a HUGE problem, and the problem with matchups from the massive amount of available pokemon caused a shift in tiering philosophy Gen 6+ on Smogon. Part of the reason Arena Trap and Shadow Tag got flatbanned; Trapping exacerbates the difficulty of bad matchups to absurd level.
With that being said, splitting up NU into RU and NU doesn't actually solve the problem at all. All your suggestion does is rename NU to RU, and put a tier below it. With that being said, the existence of a tier below RU doesn't make your suggested "70 relevant pokemon" any less relevant; You can still use NU pokemon in RU.
It sounds like your argument is "NU is too big, team matchups will be a huge problem, we need a tier below it to split up the good pokemon between the new RU and NU", but that doesn't actually lower the amount of pokemon in the newly proposed RU tier at all; By your logic, it will have the exact same problem. Yeah, the new NU will have less pokemon, but all you're doing is pushing the problem to a new name instead of actually fixing it.
- Toupi, fredrichnietze and OrangeManiac
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Trick Room isn't the only reason for min speed, maximizing Gyro Ball damage is huge on the pokemon that run it, and the difference between 0 speed and 25 or 31 is actually a lot bigger than you might expect.
- DoubleJ, xXBlu3BreathXx, pachima and 7 others
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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:
There just isn't any substance in you're argument though. Tell me why 70 bp HP is too good for our new meta, not your opinion on whatever is "splashable".
If you think there isn't any substance to it, then you obviously just aren't going to agree.
With that being said, I will explain it one more time: The reason Hidden Power was nerfed in Gen 6 from 70 BP to 60 is because was used on too many pokemon, too often, as a coverage move. It was never "Too good", it's not a broken move, and it doesn't make things broken, it's just run too frequently and on too many things because at 70 BP, it's that good as a coverage option on anything special/mixed, and sometimes even physical mons, due to the fact it can be any type.
That's it. End of discussion. If you don't think that is problematic whatsoever, then you obviously don't and will never have a problem with 70 BP Hidden Power, so of course you don't think the argument for 60 BP has any substance. Because on a fundamental level, your idea of "problematic" is so far removed from the reason it was nerfed that there's nothing else to say; You simply don't agree that the reason for the nerf is valid.
And you're welcome to think that, but if you do think that, then don't stand there and say that the reason has not been presented to you. It has. You're simply choosing to ignore it, because you don't agree with it. But that doesn't mean the reason doesn't exist.
- OrangeManiac and Gunthug
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Just now, Linken said:
and keeping outrage at 90 bp because sth may or may not get banned is sensible?
Ahhh, I'm sure you felt so clever saying this. You really got me. Refuted my points and made me topple. You got the Sp.Def drop and crit, I never stood a chance. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered, when my posts are going to get destroyed like this. Damn. I'll ask the mods to delete my account to save myself the embarrassment.
SpoilerWhat I'm saying is, yes, it is, and the 5 seconds it took to look in this thread and read your post was a tremendous waste of my time. If you have no intention of contributing anything meaningful to the discussion than snark because you're salty, then don't.
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6 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:
With the new moves you've mentioned, this "splashable bandaid" won't be as effective in the new meta anyway. If you want hp to simply go from fainting a dragon to not, and letting that dragon kill your check then by all means. I'm still not seeing a tangible argument against 70 bp other than "I don't like players using it to patch weaknesses".
I was just trying to carry your distracting tangent a little further.
You do understand that 90% of the argument by the TC to Darkshade/the devs at the time for 70 BP was basically "We'll have the special split, but not gen 4+ moves, so stronger BP is necessary to cover up the holes we'll have for coverage options". The fact we're going back to 60 BP with gen 5 is literally exactly the expected outcome, since the reason for 70 BP literally no longer exists.
You're welcome to disagree with 60 BP, but it was a sensible nerf in Gen 6, and the only reason we diverged from it is because it wasn't sensible for PokeMMO. With Gen 5 though, it more than makes sense; There's no reason for such a universally splashable coverage move to exist.
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15 minutes ago, Xatu said:
Lets start with walls since every team needs them.
Not every team needs walls. In fact, I'd argue most teams outside of stall don't necessarily need anything resembling a dedicated wall.
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Just now, OrangeManiac said:
Just to make clear: Arena Trap from Dugtrio or Arena Trap in general? Because if it's the first one seems like tiering is shifting into a complex ban favoring environment. Would it be just a Pokemon + ability or would you allow other kinds of complex bans to happen?
Probably Ban Dugtrio and then presumably in a later update it would have Arena Trap removed from it.
I guess you could call it a complex ban, but again, it's not a complex ban in the main reason we avoid them; It's not confusing or unnecessarily convoluted. Nobody is going to make their team and realize "ah shit, arena trap is banned on Dugtrio", because they'll never have gotten that far in the first place.
If by "Other kinds of complex bans" you mean, like, removing moves for a pokemon's movepool, idk, we'll see. That seems like a more likely option than changing base stats in my opinion.
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3 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:
I mean, this is all fair enough.
I have to ask, though - and this is not in any way to discredit any of your current plans but just out of sheer curiosity - what other measures besides the Outrage nerf are there to keep the metagame balanced that you've discussed that could possibly be used to prevent things from getting to Ubers? (besides base stat nerf, which you don't seem to like and rightfully so) I think that's pretty relevant part of all this discussion revolving around having or not having Ubers tier.
For other stuff, a good example would be, say, removing Arena Trap from Dugtrio if it goes to Ubers again.
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1 minute ago, suigin said:
Hydreigon got pretty much outclassed by Latios and Mence/Haxorus by Garchomp in a way. Stuff like 4drag2mag would destroy OU in a meta without Heatran/Jirachi if their moves were left untouched.
Fairy type was added to both keep Dragons in check (Since in VGC a Dragon Gem Boosted Draco meteor had almost no switch ins) and to nerf fighting which was very very strong in gen5 VGC (I heard a rumor it was also added to nerf Heracross since the Japanese hate fighting it or something but it's probably BS, it would still slightly explain why fairy resists bug though)
Point is Gamefreak doesn't know how to balance at all and I'm sure everyone can agree on that, specially since their policy on nerfing things seems to be to break their legs.
The Japanese actually do hate Heracross for some reason, lmao. Also, not arguing against Outrage or the dragons in OU right now, although I do think they're super overhyped, I was mostly talking about actual gen 5. (With that being said, LF my boy Jirachi)
A lot of gem moves were fucking dumb in VGC, but you're right about Draco Meteor; Of course, that's why they just removed gems.
Also, yeah, I forgot about fighting types, but that doesn't really conflict with what I said; Fairy was their swiss army knife for Gen 6 to try and balance out the type chart as much as possible in 1 type. Resistance to Dark/Bug/Fighting and an immunity to Dragon, some of the best offensive types, especially after Dark got it's steel resistance removed and Knock Off added, and a weakness to Poison/Steel, some of the worst offensive types, and a counterbalance to Steel's nerf.
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2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:
I mean here's the argument for what the devs are trying to do here. Here's the usual formula for competitive pokemon:
- Gamefreak, a completely detached entity, releases whatever the hell they want. This includes shit that is just not competitive in any universe, a good example is the move baton pass in general.
- some tiering body, usually smogon, bends over backwards trying to use bandaids to even things out, and make a competitive metagame possible.
- sometimes, they find success through simply banning things to ubers. However, keep in mind they are only working with PVP and have no PVE to concern themselves with
- other times, they aren't successful, as problems persist through several metagames before finally someone throws their hands up and says enough (see: the years of ridiculous baton pass clauses before they finally came to their senses)
We have a unique opportunity here - the developers and those who help form the competitive metagame (not just the TC, but the community at large really) are linked and can work together to prevent some of those unsolvable problems from arising at all. Dragons got so powerful in gen 5 that gamefreak ended up releasing a whole new typing to try to keep them in check - what good did this do the gen 5 metagame, though? or the gen 4 meta? Nothing. I think it's an advantage we have that these problems can potentially be snuffed out early in our situation. You'll never see me get behind something like altering base stats, ever. But things like choosing not to buff outrage to ridiculous levels, or not releasing a problematic ability (remember, sand rush actually got exca banned in gen 5 for a period) can actually be hugely beneficial in the right moments. So don't be too quick to rush to judgement just because this is a slightly different approach than we've taken in the past. Let's see how this "policy" (if you can even call it that, since it's mostly just hypothetical at this point) actually affects the tiers and gameplay before we jump to conclusions
so like, I just feel compelled to say this because I've seen sooooooo many people hype up the dragons like crazy, but dragons were literally not problematic at all in gen 5. Except maybe Garchomp. But yknow, that was because of Sand Veil, and also, fuck Garchomp. Honestly, most of the dragons other than Multiscale Dragonite were decently low usage in OU, tbh. Salamence, Haxorus, and Hydreigon all saw kind of pitiful usage compared to what you might expect, in favor of weather mons, or the super bulky, multipurpose Dragonite.
IMO Fairy Type wasn't just about keeping Dragons in check. While I'm sure Dragons played a part in it, with Fairy allowing them to push the envelope for dragons a bit farther, IMO Fairy was largely a balancing factor for the other type changes they made in Gen 6. Namely, nerfing Steel by making it neutral to Dark and Ghost. Adding Fairy gave Steel more offensive viability to compensate for this nerf, and gave Dark another resistance, something that was sorely needed after removing Steel's resistance to it.
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23 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:
the argument isnt that it wont be a problem, it could. the argument is we should not be retroactively trying to "fix" the game and tiers through picking and choosing which gen mechanics moves use.
this has far reaching effects besides this narrow circumstance. and unlike tier decisions this can not be tested. once the decision gets hard coded into the game it is not going to change either likely for a very long time. in the last 24 months their has been what? half a dozen updates.
besides when does this stop? do we nerf baton pass with a set limit on how many times it can be used in a row? do we used gen 1 hyper beam to give the move a actual use case as intended? we have always made the tiers around the game and now you are trying to make the game around the tiers. it's confusing for the casuals and a precedent. and the value to the tier is questionable at best.
tl;dr pls ban what needs to be banned IF it needs to be banned instead of this.
First of all, there have been decisions made on what gets changed to future gen mechanics or kept as is based on their affect on comp a TON of times before, so this isn't new at all, idk what you're talking about.
Second of all, you're talking about using Gen 1 Hyper Beam as if it wouldn't be the hypest thing in the fucking world.
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1 minute ago, Kizhaz said:
I imagine seismetoad will become a popular counter to rain teams. Stuff like hp grass Kingdra may come to light
BigFatToad only gets Water Absorb as a hidden ability, so it's terrible against rain.
- Kizhaz, DoubleJ and Goldeneyes
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6 minutes ago, Telf said:
real quick question, why is peliper ou?
Drizzle.
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Update 2: The UU list is now in the OP. Still quite subject to change, but now everyone should have an idea of what NU, UU, and OU will look like.
Just wondering how badly I screwed myself.
in General Discussion
Posted
Muk & Blastoise are painfully mediocre at best, unviable in even NU at worst. Aside from their viability, their Hidden Abilities aren't even that great; Poison Touch is pretty decent on Muk, but Sticky Hold is a pretty decent ability on it's own, and has it's own usage, so it's not like Sticky Hold Muk is significantly less viable than a set running Poison Touch.
Torrent >>>> Rain Dish on Blastoise basically 99% of the time anyway, since the only place you can run auto-Drizzlers is OU, and Blastoise has basically negative viability there. Torrent isn't amazing, but a stronger Scald at low HP is better than extra Leftovers that never activates. Even if Rain Dish has a use, it's marginal at best, nonexistent at worst.
Typhlosion wants a Hidden Power anyway as others have mentioned, but it's not like Blaze Typhlosion is worthless; It's generally worse than Flash Fire, yeah, but it's not like Typh is completely unviable without FF in NU. If anything the lack of HP is a bigger deal than the missing hidden ability.
Alakazam, same thing; Still highly viable in UU, so it's not like you can't use it, it's just that it'll become worthless the second it's Hidden Ability comes out and it shoots up to OU.
tl;dr: it really isn't that bad