Can someone please explain to me the current reasoning for Dugtrio being legal?

[lulnul]

It's currently being spammed in combination with Magic Bounce, which creates an incredibly unhealthy interaction that goes like this: 

 

You require hazards to break Dugtrio's Focus Sash. Espeon blocks those hazards. Removing Espeon means getting trapped (without hazards) and losing a Pokemon with 0 counter play.  You bring in a Pokemon to revenge kill the Dugtrio. The Dugtrio faints then the Dugtrio player brings in another questionably balanced pokemon like Serperior, Volcarona, or Shedninja who are capable of winning the game in one turn from the right position. 

 

There is no counter play to this in-game. All counterplay to this pokemon is specific and needs to come from within the teambuilder. With so many threats in this meta game tech-ing specifically for a 3% usage mon seems crazy, but otherwise you will just lose every time you face it. 

 

Shedninja currently sports the highest winrate out of all "real" pokemon, with Espeon + Dugtrio as its most frequent partners BY FAR. Dugtrio itself sports a very high winrate, it's 4th behind Jellicent and Quagsire. (someone explain that to me also lol, what are these guys doing at over 55% WR)

 

I'm open to being convinced this pokemon isn't inherently unbalanced. But as of right now I believe it promotes a very toxic style of play.

 

 

[DoubleJ]

Mold Breaker Excadrill with Stealth Rock is a great start.
 

[lulnul]

That's a single pokemon. And it's a "solution" that comes from the team builder. Excadril isn't a splash-able pokemon like Rotom or Scizor, it needs the right team around it. 

 

Can you not run the entire playstyle of Sand because you need your Excadril to be Mold Breaker? seems silly. 

[razimove]

Tldr the devs think 'ubers' shouldnt be used, and for whatever reason TC just ignores it as a whole, qhich is honestly fair since not many use it properly in mmo. But yes I agree with you that this ability is by far broken and shouldnt be legal in OU, aside from memes like trapinch if even that.

[caioxlive13]

OU is rn unstable. The main problem is all teams are Matchup fishing, which wins vs certain teams and lose on spot to others, because there is like, 20 threatning mons on OU and you can't cover all of them in 1 team. The less used teams like Dug's ones end being the most OP ones because you has to invest slots on your team to deal with far more common threats. 

[Ramallero]

20 hours ago, lulnul said:

It's currently being spammed in combination with Magic Bounce, which creates an incredibly unhealthy interaction that goes like this: 

 

You require hazards to break Dugtrio's Focus Sash. Espeon blocks those hazards. Removing Espeon means getting trapped (without hazards) and losing a Pokemon with 0 counter play.  You bring in a Pokemon to revenge kill the Dugtrio. The Dugtrio faints then the Dugtrio player brings in another questionably balanced pokemon like Serperior, Volcarona, or Shedninja who are capable of winning the game in one turn from the right position. 

 

There is no counter play to this in-game. All counterplay to this pokemon is specific and needs to come from within the teambuilder. With so many threats in this meta game tech-ing specifically for a 3% usage mon seems crazy, but otherwise you will just lose every time you face it. 

 

Shedninja currently sports the highest winrate out of all "real" pokemon, with Espeon + Dugtrio as its most frequent partners BY FAR. Dugtrio itself sports a very high winrate, it's 4th behind Jellicent and Quagsire. (someone explain that to me also lol, what are these guys doing at over 55% WR)

 

I'm open to being convinced this pokemon isn't inherently unbalanced. But as of right now I believe it promotes a very toxic style of play.

 

 

Hydreigon beats Espeon and doesn't get traped by dugtrio. Also does Scizor if Espeon doesn't have HP fire or Dragonite if doesn't have HP ice. Also does Weavile, and beats Dugtrio cause icecycle spear is a multihit move so focus sash is useless. All those are very common picks.

 

That being said, if your team loose to a 1 pokemon if that pokemon gets a "free turn" you probably need to make some adjustments to your team...

 

Saying that a pokemon with a 0.91% pick rate is broken cause have a 55% is nonsense. The 0.91% should tell you something... if I play a game with a pichu and win then pichu will have a 100% win rate, that doesn't mean pichus is broken. Also wonder guard and arena trap are nerfed in pokemmo..

[caioxlive13]

 

Just now, Ramallero said:

Hydreigon beats Espeon and doesn't get traped by dugtrio. Also does Scizor if Espeon doesn't have HP fire or Dragonite if doesn't have HP ice. Also does Weavile, and beats Dugtrio cause icecycle spear is a multihit move so focus sash is useless. All those are very common picks.

 

That being said, if your team loose to a 1 pokemon if that pokemon gets a "free turn" you probably need to make some adjustments to your team...

 

Saying that a pokemon with a 0.91% pick rate is broken cause have a 55% is nonsense. The 0.91% should tell you something... if I play a game with a pichu and win then pichu will have a 100% win rate, that doesn't mean pichus is broken. Also wonder guard and arena trap are nerfed in pokemmo..

I had to correct you, Wonder Guard and AT aren't nerfed. Wonder Guard is nerfed for PvE only but since we're discussing about ladder is irrelevant. AT isn't nerfed at all. And the 0,91%  that uses had a good winrate because most teams has no way to deal with those teams. Just read what i sayed, we have over 20+ threats on OU and can't cover everything in one team. If you fall vs those 1% that uses this s*** he will probablly win you. 

[lulnul]

On 1/14/2024 at 4:33 PM, Ramallero said:

That being said, if your team loose to a 1 pokemon if that pokemon gets a "free turn" you probably need to make some adjustments to your team...

I feel like you fundamentally don't understand how these teams are being played. The Dugtrio is used to remove a would-be check from 1 of 3 Pokemon that are notorious for sweeping games from a single boost. I'm not running around with no check to Volcarona, it's been removed. Even if you can stop the sweep, you've lost so many resources in the trade that most times you will lose.

 

I will concede that both Hydreigon and Weavile match up favorably into the core, as they can guaranteed pressure Espeon and do not get trapped effectively. But it feels like options are limited in that regard. Without one of these pokemon on your team, you will lose a mon to Dugtrio if your opponent isn't terrible. There is no outplay in game. 

[Ramallero]

On 1/16/2024 at 12:41 AM, lulnul said:

I feel like you fundamentally don't understand how these teams are being played. The Dugtrio is used to remove a would-be check from 1 of 3 Pokemon that are notorious for sweeping games from a single boost. I'm not running around with no check to Volcarona, it's been removed. Even if you can stop the sweep, you've lost so many resources in the trade that most times you will lose.

 

I will concede that both Hydreigon and Weavile match up favorably into the core, as they can guaranteed pressure Espeon and do not get trapped effectively. But it feels like options are limited in that regard. Without one of these pokemon on your team, you will lose a mon to Dugtrio if your opponent isn't terrible. There is no outplay in game. 

I understand that Arena trap is OP and really annoying, what I understand is why you said this:

 

On 1/13/2024 at 9:35 PM, lulnul said:

It's currently being spammed in combination with Magic Bounce, which creates an incredibly unhealthy interaction that goes like this: 

 

You require hazards to break Dugtrio's Focus Sash. Espeon blocks those hazards. Removing Espeon means getting trapped (without hazards) and losing a Pokemon with 0 counter play.  You bring in a Pokemon to revenge kill the Dugtrio. The Dugtrio faints then the Dugtrio player brings in another questionably balanced pokemon like Serperior, Volcarona, or Shedninja who are capable of winning the game in one turn from the right position. 

 

Why are you using your Volvarona check to kill the espeon?
Also Weavile and Hydreigon are just 2 examples of pokemon that are strong against this core.. But are more: Mold Braker Excadril (and is not a gimmick, is the most used ability by far for exca), Gengar destroys Espeon and ghosts don't get trap by Arena Trap, Mandibuzz is also a good pokemon who can do well against Espeon and don't get trap (and slow U-turn helps you to outpivot his switches), Choice Band Scizor with U-turn (if espeon doesn't have HP fire), U-turn Mienshao, Rotow-W with trick is also very good against this core (Dugtrio can't trap or beat it and Shedinja dies to a will o wisp). Choice Scarf Gallade one shots Espeon with Night Slash, and beats Dugtrio 1v1 (even locked in that move cause dugtrio never OHKO with EQ): 

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 96-114 (87.2 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 102-120 (71.3 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jellicent beats Espeon, don't get trap by Dugtrio and will o wisp kills shedinja.

 

Serene Grace Togekiss can Freeze/para/burn Espeon and flich it to death (dont get trap by dugtrio).


And I'm thinking just a few examples, what I mean is that there are tools on the meta to deal with this gimmick, and all the pokemon I listed are not inferior pokemon that you have to carry to take down the core you mention, are true OU pokemon.

Edited January 19 by Ramallero

[caioxlive13]

On 1/17/2024 at 10:23 PM, Ramallero said:

I understand that Arena trap is OP and really annoying, what I understand is why you said this:

 

Why are you using your Volvarona check to kill the espeon?
Also Weavile and Hydreigon are just 2 examples of pokemon that are strong against this core.. But are more: Mold Braker Excadril (and is not a gimmick, is the most used ability by far for exca), Gengar destroys Espeon and ghosts don't get trap by Arena Trap, Mandibuzz is also a good pokemon who can do well against Espeon and don't get trap (and slow U-turn helps you to outpivot his switches), Choice Band Scizor with U-turn (if espeon doesn't have HP fire), U-turn Mienshao, Rotow-W with trick is also very good against this core (Dugtrio can't trap or beat it and Shedinja dies to a will o wisp). Choice Scarf Gallade one shots Espeon with Night Slash, and beats Dugtrio 1v1 (even locked in that move cause dugtrio never OHKO with EQ): 

The bigger problem that makes Dug OP is just it being lower use, because think with me. You want to use gengar over any other poison in the team because you can check dugtrio, when the others can check bigger threats such as Serperior and Conk(In case of Weezing)? Just mentioning an example, but resumes why dugtrio could be annoying to fight, is you don't are prepared for it and you can't most of the time, you has to reserve teamslots for Rain, Sun, Sand, Chansey Stall cores, Volcarona, Nite, Serperior, Suicune, Gallade, Hydrei and the list goes on... You can't cover all of those immense threats on your team so you has to be seletive and cover just the most used. If you cover a lower use one, it's a bonus.  Also dugtrio doesn't need to come in the face of someone who beats it, just need to appear and eliminate a key member of team that checks your sweeper. If happens, then it's GG because you can enter with your sweeper and finish the game. 

To see how far this gets, my team has a Serperior and i'd love to use something like Glare or taunt on it. But due to Kingdra in Rain, i'm forced of running AV to try surviving. For sand teams and to back on Physical defense in order to not lose to smth like Scizor and Excadrill my Suicune is Bold instead of timid. If i change that i'd still put just the EVs needed for passing 135 speed and nothing else. 

Edited January 21 by caioxlive13

[SuperBXdanielo]

On 1/17/2024 at 10:23 PM, Ramallero said:

I understand that Arena trap is OP and really annoying, what I understand is why you said this:

 

Why are you using your Volvarona check to kill the espeon?
Also Weavile and Hydreigon are just 2 examples of pokemon that are strong against this core.. But are more: Mold Braker Excadril (and is not a gimmick, is the most used ability by far for exca), Gengar destroys Espeon and ghosts don't get trap by Arena Trap, Mandibuzz is also a good pokemon who can do well against Espeon and don't get trap (and slow U-turn helps you to outpivot his switches), Choice Band Scizor with U-turn (if espeon doesn't have HP fire), U-turn Mienshao, Rotow-W with trick is also very good against this core (Dugtrio can't trap or beat it and Shedinja dies to a will o wisp). Choice Scarf Gallade one shots Espeon with Night Slash, and beats Dugtrio 1v1 (even locked in that move cause dugtrio never OHKO with EQ): 

252+ Atk Sharpness Gallade Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 96-114 (87.2 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 102-120 (71.3 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jellicent beats Espeon, don't get trap by Dugtrio and will o wisp kills shedinja.

 

Serene Grace Togekiss can Freeze/para/burn Espeon and flich it to death (dont get trap by dugtrio).


And I'm thinking just a few examples, what I mean is that there are tools on the meta to deal with this gimmick, and all the pokemon I listed are not inferior pokemon that you have to carry to take down the core you mention, are true OU pokemon.

The thing in those Shedinja/Espeon/Dugtrio teams is that you can fish for a good matchup to give you a free win, so you don't really need to worry about those checks you mentioned, as you can just accept defeat and go for the next game that you will probably win.

 

This will eventually led to everybody starting to use checks to those teams so you don't get destroyed by them, making the meta less diverse. I already seeing those moons you listed way more than the times when these teams are not as popular. Maybe we are seeing the beginning of a cicle, where they rise in popularity then people start to use counters to deal with them, so they slow down until people stop use the counters, then the cicle start again.

 

And it's not like you will loose just because your opponent has an excadrill or a Hydreigon, as you can always play around the counter to get a victory, unless the guy have a entire team focused to counter this archetype, just like "matagod", a Hispanic Youtuber, has been doing recently.

 

I agree that dugtrio maybe deserve a ban, or at least a review in his position in the meta, because his only reason to exist is to make this sort of playstyle exist.