[UU Discussion] Charizard (Banned from UU to BL)

[karimologia]

Abilities: Blaze

 

Usable sets:

Bellyzard

• Belly Drum
• Thunder Punch / Earthquake
• Fire Punch
• Sustitute

Mixed, Sunny, whatever is its moveset it's too OP for UU, do I need to do calcs?

 

I think it deserve to be banned to BL

[DaftCoolio]

Sunnybeam set is probably worth mentioning it is the most common set ive seen, people probably avoid the sub druming set due to the high number of priority users in UU.

[Anjovies]

LF charizardite Y

[Kornelio]

LF charizardite Y

yeah charizadite X is2 mainstream 4me

[karimologia]

Sunnybeam set is probably worth mentioning it is the most common set ive seen, people probably avoid the sub druming set due to the high number of priority users in UU.

Such as...?

[Toast]

Such as...?

hitmontop, hitmonlee, scyther, dodrio, fearow, not too many but yeah i sitll agree zard should be banned to BL

[BurntZebra]

hitmontop, hitmonlee, scyther, dodrio, fearow, not too many but yeah i sitll agree zard should be banned to BL

i kind of doubt mach punch would do 25% to zard

[Toast]

i kind of doubt mach punch would do 25% to zard

just realized it didnt, ban pls

[Gunthug]

Really not sold on this being too strong - even the bellyzard set. As far as priority goes, we do have fake out kanga which should be relatively prevalent.

But even disregarding that, how often will zard really be able to set up? it can only switch in when its faster than the opponent, and on moves that will do <25% health. So that's what, ground and bug? Most ground users carry rock moves, so unless someone is locked into a CB eq that may not work.

Also, you really only get 1 shot at a bellyzard sweep unless you're running wish support. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the mechanics here, but this is my understanding): if you sub once then belly drum, you need to be at exactly 25% health to trigger salac. This means that after two subs, though, you'll be at exactly 50% health, and won't be able to drum. If you rig it where you can still drum at 51%, you won't be able to trigger salac after one sub and a drum.

All things considered, bellyzard remains a high risk high reward poke, even in UU. Things like lanturn handle fire+tpunch coverage, and things like solrock handle fire/eq coverage. This is a poke that id definitely wanna see in action before I'm convinced that it's too powerful. Remember - just because something can work in Ou doesn't necessarily mean it's too strong for Uu

[karimologia]

So let's use Kangaskhan in every UU team and a Solrock or Lanturn... yay! we're safe against bellyzard  ;)

[Munya]

I don't think thats what he said at all

[DaftCoolio]

So let's use Kangaskhan in every UU team and a Solrock or Lanturn... yay! we're safe against bellyzard  ;)

now that we are all agreed, plz lock and trash

[Toast]

well what about dragonclaw + fire punch? blaze fire punch hurts and that's unresisted coverage

[BurntZebra]

Really not sold on this being too strong - even the bellyzard set. As far as priority goes, we do have fake out kanga which should be relatively prevalent.

But even disregarding that, how often will zard really be able to set up? it can only switch in when its faster than the opponent, and on moves that will do <25% health. So that's what, ground and bug? Most ground users carry rock moves, so unless someone is locked into a CB eq that may not work.

Also, you really only get 1 shot at a bellyzard sweep unless you're running wish support. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the mechanics here, but this is my understanding): if you sub once then belly drum, you need to be at exactly 25% health to trigger salac. This means that after two subs, though, you'll be at exactly 50% health, and won't be able to drum. If you rig it where you can still drum at 51%, you won't be able to trigger salac after one sub and a drum.

All things considered, bellyzard remains a high risk high reward poke, even in UU. Things like lanturn handle fire+tpunch coverage, and things like solrock handle fire/eq coverage. This is a poke that id definitely wanna see in action before I'm convinced that it's too powerful. Remember - just because something can work in Ou doesn't necessarily mean it's too strong for Uu

assuming that someone won't make the hp so salac activates after 1 sub+belly drum is kind of a bad assumption to make and a reminder, +6 blaze fire punch hurts stuff A LOT

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 36 HP / 100 Def Lanturn: 206-243 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Solrock: 177-209 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, you know how stuff resists fire? yeah fuck that, still gonna ko, and all the bulky waters are ko'ed by fire punch or thunderpunch basically

Golem kind of works, assuming charizard doesn't run earthquake or something

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golem: 125-147 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And not to mention the sunnybeam set is also a beast, assuming that chansey doesn't get moved down. Only things that really take hits from the sunnybeam set are thick fat grumpig (not viable at all with pursuit absol running around), tentacruel, flareon, ninetales, and lanturn.

[DaftCoolio]

And not to mention the sunnybeam set is also a beast, assuming that chansey doesn't get moved down. Only things that really take hits from the sunnybeam set are thick fat grumpig (not viable at all with pursuit absol running around), tentacruel, flareon, ninetales, and lanturn.

and swag as fuck altaria

[BurntZebra]

and swag as fuck altaria

sneaky rascal

252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in Sun: 78-92 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in Sun: 52-62 (28.5 - 34%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited February 25, 2015 by BurntZebra

[fredrichnietze]

well what about dragonclaw + fire punch? blaze fire punch hurts and that's unresisted coverage

^this is way better then EQ+fire punch thou tpunch is still needed for a few of the bulky waters. however char does have the option of running dclaw to take out golem and several other bulky phsyicals.

 

also i already had several hundred words of my char thread i was going to post done and did half of the priority calcs ;-;.

 

and the TL;DR of those calcs was belly char is too scary since nearly all of the things that can actually stop it die to sunny char and vice versa. furthermore none of the mach punchers can do 25%+ to char and of the fake out pokes only max att cb kangas and pika can do 25%+. all the espeed pokes do it thou (all 2 of them).

[Gunthug]

assuming that someone won't make the hp so salac activates after 1 sub+belly drum is kind of a bad assumption to make and a reminder, +6 blaze fire punch hurts stuff A LOT
+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 36 HP / 100 Def Lanturn: 206-243 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Solrock: 177-209 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah, you know how stuff resists fire? yeah fuck that, still gonna ko, and all the bulky waters are ko'ed by fire punch or thunderpunch basically
Golem kind of works, assuming charizard doesn't run earthquake or something
+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golem: 125-147 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And not to mention the sunnybeam set is also a beast, assuming that chansey doesn't get moved down. Only things that really take hits from the sunnybeam set are thick fat grumpig (not viable at all with pursuit absol running around), tentacruel, flareon, ninetales, and lanturn.

That's a really odd ev spread on lanturn, almost looks designed to secure a fire punch 1hko. Even so, I'm aware how powerful bellyzard is - but you gotta get there first. How easy it'll be to set up is something we can't know until it's tested, imo. As far as the sunnybeam set, I think it could potentially be very powerful, but on its face i don't think it would deserve a quick ban.

[DrCraig]

That's a really odd ev spread on lanturn, almost looks designed to secure a fire punch 1hko. Even so, I'm aware how powerful bellyzard is - but you gotta get there first. How easy it'll be to set up is something we can't know until it's tested, imo. As far as the sunnybeam set, I think it could potentially be very powerful, but on its face i don't think it would deserve a quick ban.

I think the lanturn spread was meant to show what evs you need otherwise you die, btw

[Gunthug]

I think the lanturn spread was meant to show what evs you need otherwise you die, btw

ahh that makes sense

[RysPicz]

If you're afraid of the Bellyzard set, don't forget: Memento Misdreavus/ Muk, which practicly guarantees a setup for Zard, which is heavily needed since this is not a Lino- I see this situation being similar to the Lino problem, but Lino required only one turn of setup (pure drum) and was left with 75% (sitrus). Zard has to carry salac, making itself vulnerable to priority, but still it's a scary sweeper.

 

The spread I'd use on Zard would be Adamant, 92 HP (makes salac active after sub + drum), 252 atk, 4 def, 4 sdef, 116 speed (reaches 115 speed- enough to outspeed +speed base 70s and reach 202 after salac boost- sorry Crobat, can't take that risk). Set subdrum Claw Firepunch.

 

252 Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 34-42 (20.7 - 25.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 37-45 (22.5 - 27.4%) -- 43.9% chance to 4HKO

Banded obviously kills, but locking yourself into a banded fake out...

 

Defensive Lanturn seems like a pretty solid >check< because it still stands a chance of getting OHKOed, it'd need a diffrent spread made especially under Zard:

 

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 40 HP / 192 Def Lanturn: 183-216 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

(yes Blaze firepunch does more than dragon claw)

 

ESpeed Pikachu is legit, works.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther Quick Attack vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 38-45 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 60.7% chance to 4HKO

>scyther w/o technician

>anyone would use

 

Mach punchers don't work, won't kill. It will possibly share the same history as Lino, some people will have to win some tournaments by using Zard solely (hi) and then it'll get moved up. Cuz I'm sure it will.

[BurntZebra]

 

If you're afraid of the Bellyzard set, don't forget: Memento Misdreavus/ Muk, which practicly guarantees a setup for Zard, which is heavily needed since this is not a Lino- I see this situation being similar to the Lino problem, but Lino required only one turn of setup (pure drum) and was left with 75% (sitrus). Zard has to carry salac, making itself vulnerable to priority, but still it's a scary sweeper.

 

The spread I'd use on Zard would be Adamant, 92 HP (makes salac active after sub + drum), 252 atk, 4 def, 4 sdef, 116 speed (reaches 115 speed- enough to outspeed +speed base 70s and reach 202 after salac boost- sorry Crobat, can't take that risk). Set subdrum Claw Firepunch.

 

252 Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 34-42 (20.7 - 25.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 37-45 (22.5 - 27.4%) -- 43.9% chance to 4HKO

Banded obviously kills, but locking yourself into a banded fake out...

 

Defensive Lanturn seems like a pretty solid >check< because it still stands a chance of getting OHKOed, it'd need a diffrent spread made especially under Zard:

 

+6 252+ Atk Blaze Charizard Fire Punch vs. 40 HP / 192 Def Lanturn: 183-216 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

(yes Blaze firepunch does more than dragon claw)

 

ESpeed Pikachu is legit, works.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Scyther Quick Attack vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 38-45 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 60.7% chance to 4HKO

>scyther w/o technician

>anyone would use

 

Mach punchers don't work, won't kill. It will possibly share the same history as Lino, some people will have to win some tournaments by using Zard solely (hi) and then it'll get moved up. Cuz I'm sure it will.

 

Dodrio easily kills charizard once its subbed+belly drum'ed

252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Quick Attack vs. 92 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 57-67 (34.7 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Also quagsire is a pretty nice counter to belly drum zard, I imagine its ohko'ed by sunnybeam zard though

[fredrichnietze]

e speed linoone does 25%+

and all the others have been mentioned in this thread alrteady. espeed linoone dies to sunny char ofc. as does lanturn, pika, dodrio, scyther, tauros, and everything else with priority. all the fake out users need band to do 25%+ and ofc banned fake out wont kill solar char. all the non fake out users cant 1hko and get wrecked by solar in sun or sun/stab/blaze f blast.

[Shaniqualela]

92 hp would be pointless on zard, you can just run any number divisible by 4
If you don't want to put max speed since it isn't really necessary it would be better to dump it all into defense instead so you can take a little less from the weak priority moves

[DoubleJ]

e speed linoone does 25%+
and all the others have been mentioned in this thread alrteady. espeed linoone dies to sunny char ofc. as does lanturn, pika, dodrio, scyther, tauros, and everything else with priority. all the fake out users need band to do 25%+ and ofc banned fake out wont kill solar char. all the non fake out users cant 1hko and get wrecked by solar in sun or sun/stab/blaze f blast.

Wait wait wait... Lanturn has priority?