Gunthug Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Flail + waterfall is perfect coverage. No flaws. #kingler RS flinch chance is 30%. A "wall" that has 30% of loosing is pretty weak imo. Bellosom, being one of the best options, is still not that great when you think about it. Remember, too, that with giga drain being the main attack used to kill kabu by bello and tangela, if you DONT get the flinch you want, not only do you lose your kabutops, but the bello/tangela will likely be back at full health after draining all of yours. You won't even be able to sweep them up afterwards Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You're right but as per your calcs, flail has low % chance of ohkoing which means every time you set up a sub, the chances of you ohko-ing me lowers assuming that I have taken damage at some point. Also if I know you have sub, I will switch my hitmontop at some point when you're at 50% hp, so that intimidate+mach punch lowers your chances of doing much dmg. I agree that hitmontop is a better option and allows safe scouting. I am not saying that bellosom doesn't wall kabutops. I am just saying there is a good chance bellosom won't be on the winning side on that match up. Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 From the tiering guide: "An example of an Offensive Characteristic pokemon would be Tyranitar, which was banned for being too potent of a sweeper. It could sweep through the majority of the metagame with little to no trouble, with only a select handful of pokemon being capable of stopping it. As a result, all it needed was some spikes support, or simply the natural widdling down of the opponent's pokemon in order to be able to fully sweep. It's ability, Sand Stream, meant that even Leftovers wouldn't help pokemon survive against it. Claydol, Skarmory, and Vaporeon were the best switch in options against a Tyranitar, and all of them could still be beaten. (Skarmory is beaten by Taunt if it tries to go for Whirlwind; Even if tries to kill with Steel Wing, it loses a majority of the time due to Rock Slide flinches. Claydol is beaten by Crunch, and Vaporeon is beaten if it has been whittled down, even if not, Tyranitar is able to Rock Slide out a victory)." Kabutops doesn't have a lot of switch in options. I am juste comparing vaporeon ability to wall tyranatar to the ability of ballosom to wall kabutops. In both cases, the sweeper could still manage to "Rock Slide out a victory". I would also like to point out that being forced to play bellosom as a wall is not that great. Beside leech seed (that requires battle points farming), bellosom doesn't do a lot of supporting in a team. He also allows several easy and threatening switch ins like jynx and ninetales. 90 base power in special attack with no ev investement is quite bad. 0 SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 90-108 (19.3 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Even lapras come in and trap with no fear. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 From the tiering guide: "An example of an Offensive Characteristic pokemon would be Tyranitar, which was banned for being too potent of a sweeper. It could sweep through the majority of the metagame with little to no trouble, with only a select handful of pokemon being capable of stopping it. As a result, all it needed was some spikes support, or simply the natural widdling down of the opponent's pokemon in order to be able to fully sweep. It's ability, Sand Stream, meant that even Leftovers wouldn't help pokemon survive against it. Claydol, Skarmory, and Vaporeon were the best switch in options against a Tyranitar, and all of them could still be beaten. (Skarmory is beaten by Taunt if it tries to go for Whirlwind; Even if tries to kill with Steel Wing, it loses a majority of the time due to Rock Slide flinches. Claydol is beaten by Crunch, and Vaporeon is beaten if it has been whittled down, even if not, Tyranitar is able to Rock Slide out a victory)." Kabutops doesn't have a lot of switch in options. I am juste comparing vaporeon ability to wall tyranatar to the ability of ballosom to wall kabutops. In both cases, the sweeper could still manage to "Rock Slide out a victory". I would also like to point out that being forced to play bellosom as a wall is not that great. Beside leech seed (that requires battle points farming), bellosom doesn't do a lot of supporting in a team. He also allows several easy and threatening switch ins like jynx and ninetales. 90 base power in special attack with no ev investement is quite bad. 0 SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 90-108 (19.3 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Even lapras come in and trap with no fear. Vaporeon couldn't beat it with one Surf though and heal with that Surf. aaaand there are a lot of other thigns that made Ttar broken than that nitpicky point you bolded gbwead 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Vaporeon couldn't beat it with one Surf though and heal with that Surf. aaaand there are a lot of other thigns that made Ttar broken than that nitpicky point you bolded Ok it might not be a convincing argument, but yet it doesn't change the fact that bellosom is a weak wall that allows a lot of threats to set up. Link to comment
Senile Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 From the tiering guide: "An example of an Offensive Characteristic pokemon would be Tyranitar, which was banned for being too potent of a sweeper. It could sweep through the majority of the metagame with little to no trouble, with only a select handful of pokemon being capable of stopping it. As a result, all it needed was some spikes support, or simply the natural widdling down of the opponent's pokemon in order to be able to fully sweep. It's ability, Sand Stream, meant that even Leftovers wouldn't help pokemon survive against it. Claydol, Skarmory, and Vaporeon were the best switch in options against a Tyranitar, and all of them could still be beaten. (Skarmory is beaten by Taunt if it tries to go for Whirlwind; Even if tries to kill with Steel Wing, it loses a majority of the time due to Rock Slide flinches. Claydol is beaten by Crunch, and Vaporeon is beaten if it has been whittled down, even if not, Tyranitar is able to Rock Slide out a victory)." Kabutops doesn't have a lot of switch in options. I am juste comparing vaporeon ability to wall tyranatar to the ability of ballosom to wall kabutops. In both cases, the sweeper could still manage to "Rock Slide out a victory". I would also like to point out that being forced to play bellosom as a wall is not that great. Beside leech seed (that requires battle points farming), bellosom doesn't do a lot of supporting in a team. He also allows several easy and threatening switch ins like jynx and ninetales. 90 base power in special attack with no ev investement is quite bad. 0 SpA Bellossom Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 90-108 (19.3 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Even lapras come in and trap with no fear. But that logic doesn't work, because Vaporeon has to surf twice to kill Tyranitar, whereas Bellossom does it in one hit. This means that while Tyranitar would flinch 51% of the time, Kabutops doesn't get that chance, only the 30%. Only it's not actually 30%, because both times it uses rock slide it has a 10% chance to miss, so there's a good chance of catastrophic failure. The rock slide flinch chance ends in Kabutops getting completely fucked a large majority of the time, let's not pretend otherwise. gbwead 1 Link to comment
Gilvy Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 you'll cry at first tourney for not having instaban stuffs gbwead 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Support Banette does it learn WoW here? yes You're right but as per your calcs, flail has low % chance of ohkoing which means every time you set up a sub, the chances of you ohko-ing me lowers assuming that I have taken damage at some point. Also if I know you have sub, I will switch my hitmontop at some point when you're at 50% hp, so that intimidate+mach punch lowers your chances of doing much dmg. sub does block intimidate. i assume you know this and are switching in on one of the turns sub is down, but not everyone reading this thread does. also i would like to point out that kabu learns AA and since every single counter that has been pointed out is a grass or fight type, i think this may be useful for the calcs with bello/tangela if not top. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 yes sub does block intimidate. i assume you know this and are switching in on one of the turns sub is down, but not everyone reading this thread does. also i would like to point out that kabu learns AA and since every single counter that has been pointed out is a grass or fight type, i think this may be useful for the calcs with bello/tangela if not top. AA = 60 * 2 = 120 RS = 75 * 1,5 = 112,5 not that much of a difference. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 AA = 60 * 2 = 120 RS = 75 * 1,5 = 112,5 not that much of a difference. 252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 84-100 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 78-93 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and yet all the difference in the world. ofc flinch chance>9.8% so rs still good but this way you hit both hitmontop and bello hard with the same move instead of having to guess. Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 AA = 60 * 2 = 120 RS = 75 * 1,5 = 112,5 not that much of a difference. 252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 78-93 (42.8 - 51%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 84-100 (46.1 - 54.9%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO It is not much of a difference, but it could be enough to make a difference. Bellosom suck and it will be a pain to be forced to play that awful pokemon with pokemons that are so OP next to it. Gilvy 1 Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 >9,8% chance of 2HKO'ing >all the difference in the world >nah Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 >9,8% chance of 2HKO'ing >all the difference in the world >nah Add knock off shuckle in the mixt and it makes all the difference in the world indeed. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Run Cacturne+Poliwrath shiftry>cacturne Link to comment
Gilvy Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) shiftry>cacturne didn't know shiftry could set up spikes Edited June 3, 2015 by Gilvy Link to comment
NikhilR Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 sub does block intimidate. i assume you know this and are switching in on one of the turns sub is down, but not everyone reading this thread does. also i would like to point out that kabu learns AA and since every single counter that has been pointed out is a grass or fight type, i think this may be useful for the calcs with bello/tangela if not top. If I read what he said, correctly, then it means that he wants to be at +2 and continue subbing till 1 hp. So assuming he is +2 when I switch in, I keep breaking his sub and then switch in the next turn he subs thus making him -1. At that point he can only waterfall. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 didn't know shiftry could set up spikes I like glalie better as a spiker, personally. But if you want something to help check strong physical waters AND a spiker all in one poke, then yea go for cacturne Link to comment
gbwead Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) If I read what he said, correctly, then it means that he wants to be at +2 and continue subbing till 1 hp. So assuming he is +2 when I switch in, I keep breaking his sub and then switch in the next turn he subs thus making him -1. At that point he can only waterfall. making him +1 If you switch in on the last substitue, here is what happens. +1 252+ Atk Kabutops Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 128-151 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Kabutops than switches out to avoid mach punch and leaves your hitmontop nearly dead with no recovery moves. Edited June 3, 2015 by lamerb Link to comment
londark Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Waterfall + Flail gets stalled out by Mantine, generally ( inb4 swift swimm mantine ), and Lapras can switch in and Perish Song, Roar, Set up Curse/Dragon Dance while you sub....Normal Water IS perfect as coverage, but Flail doesn't give sure coverage I think Zangose > Tops as Flail user, and with the ammount of priority and Sharpedo ( and Speed Boosters huehuehue ) don't really think it'll be that used anyway... AA is quite viable on CB Tops imo since it hits for SE damages most "safe" switch in, but Tangela and Bellossum gets instant recovery so i guess they generally win the 1 on 1, for Poliwrath and Top it's a little harder to keep switching in... Not really sure if Tops is too op tbh gbwead 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We're never going to get anywhere until we get the ball rolling this weekend in tournament play. Going to be one fun time. Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 We're never going to get anywhere until we get the ball rolling this weekend in tournament play. Going to be one fun time. Join the test battles on PTS #quickbanJynx DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Join the test battles on PTS #quickbanJynx I would but i work all day and get home when ya'll are asleep. Rip. Nevertheless, when we don't really have a true special wall an insane poke like jynx probs should get the boot. Just think of it abstractly. Great speed. CM boost with dual +90 bp stabs. Other support moves like sub, fake tears, and the scary lovely kiss too. I'm with think here, bye bye jynx. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Srs, I swept thinknice with it today in an absurd position. Was down 4-2 I think, and honesty I didn't even play it that well. The sweep was inevitable though. Jynx firmly fits under the offensive uber category, and I think it's clear without any further testing Link to comment
NikhilR Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) "The council will take some time to give a final decision on whether Jynx stays in NU or not. We would like to thank you for your valuable input" Damn it feels so good to finally say that. Edited June 3, 2015 by NikhilR OrangeManiac, fredrichnietze, Blue and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Recommended Posts