[Test Banned to Ubers] Gengar

[Murcielago]

That statement was in regards to the "stagnation" arguement, which I don't even believe is a consideration at all when banning or tiering (I could be wrong)  if every few months a new pokemon is banned, then yes, that makes new players less likely to join you.  Which, in turn, makes things more stagnent.

 

I am simply giving you the perspective of a new player that would like to battle vs. you (and probably lose regardless). 

 

Whether or not you care about brining more players into your scene is up to you, I am simply bringing light to this problem.  And offering some feedback and perspective that I have not yet seen in this thread.

[Murcielago]

One of the opinions I read here is, or seemed to be:

 

Ban Gengar.

 

Then, if it becomes even more unbalanced ban more stuff then.

 

 

Hopefully you can see if the powerful pokemon are banned every few months, your going to drive away new players.

[Rendiz]

That statement was in regards to the "stagnation" arguement, which I don't even believe is a consideration at all when banning or tiering (I could be wrong) 

Now I am even more confused. First you say that you do not think gengar should be banned because it makes it harder for new players starting comp and correlating that to stagnation. Now you are saying that stagnation shouldnt be considered. Either way health of meta > everything else when it comes to tiering. If you are trying to argue making it easier for new players for new players to get into comp a breeding discussion would be more appropriate than a gengar discussion.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Rendiz

[Murcielago]

^ Fair enough.  I believe my statement is pretty clear, if others are confused I can elaborate.  If it helps at all, I read many people suggesting to ban gengar simply because it "is centralizing" and causes "stagnatation" this was in regard to those statements (and I thought was very clear in my original post).  I personally didn't see these concepts to be part or a reason to ban a pokemon, but I could be wrong. 

 

Reality of it is, driving away new players = stagnation.  I am simply offering the perspective of a new player who is putting together a team, and now, for the second time, it may be unusable.

[codylramey]

Rendiz stop. Idk who you are but the guy you are attacking admitted he is new to tiering and comp, he is making noob mistakes and that is all. There is no need to attack him but instead politely correct him.

 

Murcielago your observation of the conversation was actually quit well put together for a noob. Too bad you were responded with the uglier side of tiering. How easy or hard it is to access pokes isnt considered in tiering convos, although i can understand why you would think that considering some of the posts about HP fire gengar in this thread. Also you are misunderstanding what stagnation is. Im not very good at explaining things but ill give it a shot. Basically a metagame is stagnate when you see the same few pokes on every team over and over again. Nothing really changes from team to team. An example of a pokemon that stagnated the meta was Snorlax. He was hands down the best spcl wall and was near unstoppable after a little bit of  set up. Due to this ppl were bringing the same 2-3 pokemon every team to counter snorlax.

[Rendiz]

Rendiz stop. Idk who you are but the guy you are attacking admitted he is new to tiering and comp, he is making noob mistakes and that is all. There is no need to attack him but instead politely correct him.

I am not attacking him. I was 'attacking' a point he made. Saying that one of the points he made was stupid may not have been the nicest thing to say but it is not in any way an attack as I was directing it at a statement not him as a person. Maybe you didn't read my next two posts after my first because I was trying to correct him and I can't see how you could consider them an attack against him.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Rendiz

[codylramey]

Yea srry, ur first post looked like you were attacking him. The other two must have came in while i was typing my response.

[Robofiend]

Hey guys,

 

I have never played in a pokemmo tournament, though I would like too, contingent upon actually making a half way decent team and getting some practice in.  With that said, I would like to offer you my perspective, from the outside looking in.  I have read every post in this thread btw, and my response is based off of that, and that of a new players perspective.

 

 

Re: Gengar is over powered

 

While my knowlage and understanding of the game is far less then your guys, it seems this argument is mostly based around the fact that Gengar can be versitile and depending on the set, it can pose a threat to a veriatey of different pokemon.  This argument seems like a stretch, and, also seems to be completly countered by the fact that the winning players of the most recent tournaments did not use gengar.  Now, you guys will know if what I read is true or not in this regard, but I want you to think about that for a second...  If people are winning without it... how can it be so over powered and neccisary? It can't be.  Really, and this is not ment to be an attack on anyone, it seems most of the arguments are coming from salty players who did not account for the fact Gengar can have HP fire... it happens, you over looked it... not worth banning the pokemon over IMO.

 

And as someone else mentioned, all of the roles Gengar can fill, it is outclassed by another pokemon for that role.

 

Re: Stagnatation of the Meta

 

This is where you guys are really missing the boat IMO.  Nothing can be more stagnant than creating a Meta that completly blocks and turns away new players.  Gengar is one of the easier pokemon to catch and breed.  As a new player, it was one of the first pokemon I bread.  What I am trying to get at here, is that if you keep banning and changing the meta over and over again, new players aren't going to be joining you guys.  As someone who is working to put together a team, if Gengar is banned, then THREE of my competitive pokemon will then be banned (and/or useless because they counter gengar)... Do you know how frustrating that is to a new player?  You finally almost have a team done and then WHAP - Half of it is no longer good?  WTF?  This is a serious problem, and to suggest that Gengar, based off the fact it can be built a veriaty of ways (read diversity) should be banned is silly IMO.

 

I'm sorry but we have no regard for whether a pokemon is hard/easy/good for new players/etc. when making decisions. Realistically, it's about the same difficulty to get a true comp of any species, and while Gastly is available earlier in the story, you won't be able to get a comp until completing the storyline and gaining access to breeding.

 

While the winners of recent tournaments may have decided not to run Gengar in the finals, they probably used it in earlier rounds - after all, 50% of teams in tournaments show Gengar being used. And even if this is so, it doesn't say anything about Gengar's actual qualities as a pokemon - it's just a "coolstorybro" that attempts to draw a connection between how powerful pokemon are and who uses them.

 

It also says a lot about Gengar being banworthy if half of your team is designed to counter it. That's exactly what is implied by the word "unhealthy". Sorry if this post tears you down, welcome to teiring debates your input is appreciated  :)

Edited August 18, 2015 by Robofiend

[Murcielago]

No problem guys.  It seems there is confusion about my intentions and what my main points are.

 

If you guys keep banning a new pokemon every few months, new players are going to be way less likely to join you.  Maybe this matters, maybe it doesn't.  I mentioned the fact that Gengar is super easy to get, but really all that did is derail my points and take attention away from the main problem...

 

Here is the thing, and trust me, I am not the only one thinking this, there is NO way.  I breed a really good Gengar, that took lots of time... now it is going to be banned, not fun but whatever. 

 

I also breed a really good Blissy, now thats banned not fun, but its just one pokemon... right?

 

Well... at this point it seems like a trend... Over 50% of the pokemon I breed and invest my time in to getting them ready for comp never even get to be used because they are banned...  My concern is more-so about the way you guys are banning things.

 

Gengar usage is at 49%, Metagros is at 47%... if usage percentages dictate a ban, might as well ban metagros too?

 

 

Really at the end of the day, I am offering feedback, that you probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise.  Take it for what its worth.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Murcielago

[DrCraig]

Re: Stagnatation of the Meta

 

This is where you guys are really missing the boat IMO.  Nothing can be more stagnant than creating a Meta that completly blocks and turns away new players.  Gengar is one of the easier pokemon to catch and breed.  As a new player, it was one of the first pokemon I bread.  What I am trying to get at here, is that if you keep banning and changing the meta over and over again, new players aren't going to be joining you guys.  As someone who is working to put together a team, if Gengar is banned, then THREE of my competitive pokemon will then be banned (and/or useless because they counter gengar)... Do you know how frustrating that is to a new player?  You finally almost have a team done and then WHAP - Half of it is no longer good?  WTF?  This is a serious problem, and to suggest that Gengar, based off the fact it can be built a veriaty of ways (read diversity) should be banned is silly IMO.

That's not what it means to make the metagame stagnant.

[Robofiend]

If you guys keep banning a new pokemon every few months, new players are going to be way less likely to join you.  Maybe this matters, maybe it doesn't.  I mentioned the fact that Gengar is super easy to get, but really all that did is derail my points and take attention away from the main problem...

 

Sadly, it doesn't. New players are (probably) going to join whether we ban or don't ban pokemon, and frankly I think most people would rather have a small but competitive scene than one that allows broken pokemon/strategies to be used to appease new players who know nothing about tiering in the first place. More explicitly - we don't care if new players decide to start playing comp, we want the existing ones to continue to play the game in the most competitive environment possible. 

 

Well... at this point it seems like a trend... Over 50% of the pokemon I breed and invest my time in to getting them ready for comp never even get to be used because they are banned...  My concern is more-so about the way you guys are banning things.

 

Gengar usage is at 49%, Metagros is at 47%... if usage percentages dictate a ban, might as well ban metagros too?

 

If you think that this only affects new players you're missing the point. I personally had to retire 2 Dragonites, 3 Blisseys and 4 Snorlaxes in the past year from bans that I voted in favor of putting through. Other players lost much more than me. Like you, I put a lot of time and effort into breeding and training my comps. And if the circumstances warrant it, I'll lose another 5 or so Gengars by banning it.

 

But that's beside the point - if we all just said "Well shit, we spent all this time breeding Tyranitars so we might as well keep it" then the game wouldn't be competitive and wouldn't foster adaptation, creativity and change like we want it to. 

 

Last - we don't ban anything based on usage rates, so don't worry about Metagross.

[Murcielago]

Cool, thanks to all who responded.  Was super helpful for me.  Reality of it is, I'm not sure how many hours of my life I have invested into this game but it is clear I won't be able to compete with you guys :) - So really, no point to try and fight it :) 

 

Good luck and thanks again :)

[TheRealPhatiman]

Saying things that are easily accessible to new players should not be banned is just stupid.

A more polite way of getting the same point across would be to instead say that his views are misguided,and then proceed to give him the information he needed to make a more educated decision on his view regarding gengar(the latter of which you did)calling him or rather his idea and standpoint stupid is not only degrading but also demoralizes and deters other players from taking part in the discussion(whether or not they make valid points their input is vital to get a broader spectrum on the topic at hand so that healthy discussion and debate can take place)every ones opinion should be given equal respect.

[spoiler]just choose your wording more wisely next time,is all im saying mate.[/spoiler]

 

Rendiz stop. Idk who you are but the guy you are attacking admitted he is new to tiering and comp, he is making noob mistakes and that is all. There is no need to attack him but instead politely correct him.

my hero<3

 

 

on a side note I'd like to say that the way you handled it Robo was the right and exemplary way and credit should be given where credit is due,so Kudos. 

[BurntZebra]

 

Ok so the ban went through... it's time to ban Gengar.

We've seen it power through this new meta for over a month and a half so let's just do what needs to be done so we can truly move forward.

 

I'd like to welcome our new gengar supporter

[codylramey]

Im curious at what point does versitality make a poke op? You really cant know what to switch to gengar. Is that too much of a problem for the meta?

[Robofiend]

Im curious at what point does versitality make a poke op? You really cant know what to switch to gengar. Is that too much of a problem for the meta?

 

Often versatility is what makes a pokemon powerful in the first place. Tyranitar isn't OP because it can DD or because it has two good STABs, It's OP because it can run a lot of different sets and a mispredict can cost you the match - similar to offense vs. Gengar.

[Robofiend]

 

YUS Then we can bring lax back.

 

Srs tho im gonna disagree with ur previous statement. Lax wasnt good bc he can run more than the curse set, mence want too strong bc of his ddance and mixed set. They all had a set that was most commonly seen bc it was so much better than their other sets. With gengar tho he has a set that is more commonly seen sure but his other sets are also common too. There isnt one gengar set that is so good if you are running a gengar its most likely that gar. And each set can have a different counter. But idt that this characteristic alone is a criteria for a ban is it?

 

 

Well in that case all I can say is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of tiering and you should go read Senile's guides because I'm sure as hell not going to recreate the "Why we don't complex ban things" argument here. Salamence's best set wasn't even the DD set: the CB set is straight up terrifying because it has all the moves it needs to take out everything in the tier with the right prediction. No offensive pokes switch in, no walls live a Fire Blast, and nothing else in between takes a +1 Dclaw. Same goes for Tyranitar and EQ/Crunch/Rock Slide.

 

Being versatile obviously isn't reason to ban something, Haunter's just as versatile as its evolution but lacks the firepower to capitalize on that versatility. The same goes for things like Arcanine, Ludicolo, and Kingdra - they're versatile (maybe not so much as Gengar) but not to the point where you lose if you mispredict, like with Salamence.

[Robofiend]

 

The OU Tier Council has decided to test ban Gengar for the duration of 5 Official OverUsed tournaments. Boasting great typing, a huge movepool, a useful ability and great base stats, Gengar is capable of running extremely effective sweeper sets, mixed sets, trapper sets, bulky support sets, and pretty much everthing in between There is a Gengar set to fit every team's needs to the point that it is borderline too good not to use.

 

The roles Gengar plays are unmatched and difficult to deal with on the defensive and offensive side. The lack of answers to Gengar results in team building being restricted to stacking Gengar checks. Evidence of this can be seen in a number of pokemon - including max SpDef Magneton, Arcanine and Metagross, whose EV spreads exist almost strictly to counter it. 

 

Despite its strengths, Gengar is not "Uber" as the OU Council sees it and can be played around to some degree. Some players have suggested Gengar is the necessary "glue" that prevents strategies like Normal spam to Endure/Reversal from running rampant. We will be watching the metagame closely to see if these predictions are true, as well as further signs that banning Gengar actually creates a less competitive tier. 

 

After the 5 tournaments period for which Gengar is test banned, a final decision will be made on Gengar's place in the OU tier.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[OldKeith]

A Gengarless meta is a bad meta. Prepare to see Normal spam with magneton support. Enjoy.

[RysPicz]

 

 Endure/Reversal from running rampant

I think that actually Gengar wasn't the sole reason of peps not running reversal/ flail strategies anymore- it's omnipresent Arcanine and Gyara imo

Either way I'm exctied to see how the meta looks like. Not gonna voice anything before I'll experience it for myself tho

 

E:

 

page king

 

E2:

 

stolen page king, cri

Edited August 24, 2015 by RysPicz

[DrCraig]

God damnit Robo you were supposed to wait

[Darkshade]

 

 

The OU Tier Council has decided to test ban Gengar for the duration of 5 Official OverUsed tournaments. Boasting its typing, a huge movepool, a useful ability and great base stats, Gengar is capable of running extremely effective sweeper sets, mixed sets, trapper sets, bulky support sets, and pretty much everthing in between There is a Gengar set to fit every team's needs to the point that it is borderline too good not to use.

 

The roles Gengar plays are unmatched and difficult to deal with on the defensive and offensive side. The lack of answers to Gengar results in team building being restricted to stacking Gengar checks. Evidence of this can be seen in a number of pokemon - including max SpDef Magneton, Arcanine and Metagross, whose EV spreads exist almost strictly to counter it. 

 

Despite its strengths, Gengar is not "Uber" as the OU Council sees it and can be played around to some degree. Some players have suggested Gengar is the necessary "glue" that prevents strategies like Normal spam to Endure/Reversal from running rampant. We will be watching the metagame closely to see if these predictions are true, as well as further signs that banning Gengar actually creates a less competitive tier. 

 

After the 5 tournaments period for which Gengar is test banned, a final decision will be made on Gengar's place in the OU tier.

 

 

The ban will take place after the Standard OU Official tonight.

So players who have built their teams prior to this post do not need to worry.

[RysPicz]

Yeah I guess it's fair to test ban it after the tournament rather than just few hours before it happens. Good decision, but I'm still excited to see the meta without it

Verm1 here I come

Edited August 24, 2015 by RysPicz

[Robofiend]

I think that actually Gengar wasn't the sole reason of peps not running reversal/ flail strategies anymore- it's omnipresent Arcanine and Gyara imo

Either way I'm exctied to see how the meta looks like. Not gonna voice anything before I'll experience it for myself tho

 

E:

 

page king

 

E2:

 

stolen page king, cri

 

Gyara isn't as omnipresent as suggested.. it's also one of the afforementionted Endure/Reversal Abusers

 

Also yeah I donegoofed posting this early sorry Darkshade

[DoubleJ]

So now we go from one meta where trapping was a nuisance (LaxBliss), to a meta where trapping was a problem (Gengar), to a meta where trapping is the meta (Dug + Magneton OP).

 

Can the OU Council discuss what they will be looking at throughout this test ban? For instance, what will the criteria be to ban or not ban Gengar after these 5 tournaments?