[UU Discussion] Rhydon (Banned to BL)

[OrangeManiac]

Long paragraphs and math are hurting  my head trying to read it all. Ill just give a brief opinion, rhydon is not a safe switch in poke, unless its vs a phys attacker like a normal type with no ground/fighting moves. Pointless switching rhydon in vs a sp.attacker because your pretty much dead. I always thought Rhydon was 60% useless since he is slow and for some reason can get 2HKO and OHKO pretty easy. Should stay in UU not ready for the dangers of OU yet. However, he is a really good attacker for pokemon that are slower than it, and can really be useful for hard hits and poential 2HKO'S

This is a 6v6 gameplay so switching in isn't really that relevant how easy it is to switch in as a sweeper. A sweeper of the low metagame, but still it's a sweeper. And heck, Rhydon in fact can switch in against more things than an average Pokemon. Unless it gets predicted on it can pretty much switch in to any physical attacker. There is no reason to switch in against specially offensive Pokemon, you literally have 5 other Pokemon that can deal with that. Oh yeah and it's completely irrelevant how well does it do in OU, because that's not how tiering works.

[GoldenSunIsaac]

This is a 6v6 gameplay so switching in isn't really that relevant how easy it is to switch in as a sweeper. A sweeper of the low metagame, but still it's a sweeper. And heck, Rhydon in fact can switch in against more things than an average Pokemon. Unless it gets predicted on it can pretty much switch in to any physical attacker. There is no reason to switch in against specially offensive Pokemon, you literally have 5 other Pokemon that can deal with that. Oh yeah and it's completely irrelevant how well does it do in OU, because that's not how tiering works.

right right, like I said I didn't really read over much, kind of talking off the top of my head, and I'm a skrub at UU so yeah didnt know all that. And I know how tiering woks, it works by the amount of people who use certain pokemon except in ubers. Thankx for the info anyway, I might start to use Rhydon again

[OrangeManiac]

right right, like I said I didn't really read over much, kind of talking off the top of my head, and I'm a skrub at UU so yeah didnt know all that. And I know how tiering woks, it works by the amount of people who use certain pokemon except in ubers. Thankx for the info anyway, I might start to use Rhydon again

Well just for the record I didn't use a Rhydon last time I played UU but it doesn't mean I couldn't respect its offensive capabilities. By tiering working I meant how BLs (= Borderlines) work. They're essentially banlists to lower tier: Even though Rhydon wouldn't work at all in OU tier if it's found banworthy in the lower tier it will just get banned even though no one would use it in OU ever.

[Arimanius]

I won the last uu without using rhydon too and I faced rhydon in almost every round except last one against raaidn (if I'm not wrong) and I didn't build a team for it, not even once cause in fact almost every pokemon I like to use is really strong against it, the only problems are walls like clefable and it is MY job to avoid being set up bait against it, I really don't see what is the big deal with rhydon

[BurntZebra]

I won the last uu without using rhydon too and I faced rhydon in almost every round except last one against raaidn (if I'm not wrong) and I didn't build a team for it, not even once cause in fact almost every pokemon I like to use is really strong against it, the only problems are walls like clefable and it is MY job to avoid being set up bait against it, I really don't see what is the big deal with rhydon

I rarely used snorlax in OU and it was still banworthy, regardless if I ran it or not. I never ran machamp or hariyama or tauros or marowak or any other BL pokemon in the first UU tournament, and they were still all banworthy. I played multiple of the OP BL pokemon but due to bad plays/team building, I was able to conquer over them with the power of shuckle. 

[NikhilR]

I rarely used snorlax in OU and it was still banworthy, regardless if I ran it or not. I never ran machamp or hariyama or tauros or marowak or any other BL pokemon in the first UU tournament, and they were still all banworthy. I played multiple of the OP BL pokemon but due to bad plays/team building, I was able to conquer over them with the power of shuckle. 

 

The difference being that running Snorlax gave people a much more advantage than the ones who weren't. These are people who have won without using Rhydon, including me. 

[Toast]

That's not the point
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think he was being sarcastic craig :p (i think)

But i feel like to me, rhydon does limit my teambuilding. Like i dont want to run a claydol just to take care of EQ/RS spam, and it gets megahorn anyways to kill it. Yeah i could probably stop eq spam with a flying but RS would probably shit on it anyways. Our UU meta seems pretty limited in pokes aswell, trying to use different pokes just to stop rhydon just seems too much because some pokes are sooo much better to use than others in the tier.

[Arimanius]

I explained these cases: I didn't even use it once, I didn't prepared a team against it and I faced one in almost every round without problem but still I managed to win and he said he didn't use snorlax in ou and it was banworthy (OFC) and tauros, hariyama and marowak in the first uu and they were banworthy (OFC) it doesn't mean u can't win against one or other but he used examples of pokemons that were clearly banworthy without too much calcs and testing. Besides that Snorlax did limit teambuilding in ou without any doubt I can't say the same about rhydon

 

EDIT: then u guys complain when people don't want to participate in these discussions, I wonder why would that be

Edited August 29, 2015 by Arimanius

[RysPicz]

I'll make it simple. I didn't have a single problem with Rhydon in any of my matches since it's been moved to UU. Why? Because I never run stall, on which Ride On completly shits and it does not even have a switch-in to any of pokes I usually run. Does that make it a UU material, because it isn't a problem for me?

 

You know the answer is no. It was the same case with Linoone. If a pokemon can completly shut down a certain playstyle, limits the teambuilding a lot and becomes insanely centralizing (look: speed tiers), then know that something is wrong. I don't like the horned Dino in UU even though it suits my teams, stall already has very big viability problems in UU with so many powerful threats with Zard on the top of them.

Egoist 4f says yes pls I want the Dino in UU (that is why i voted yes in the poll, come at me). Competitive 4f says that it would be better for everyone if we would keep it as BL (along with Scizor, Slowking and Zard, respectively).

[fredrichnietze]

Looking for the name of voters

^

 

so after reading this, the argument to ban rhydon is it completely shut downs stall because you counter cb and sub/sd set completely differently and if you guess wrong you will loose one or more pokemon.

 

cb is beaten by protect on your walls + having good defensive synergy.

 

sd is beaten by switching to the 2-4 things that can tank a +2 hit and 1hko back.

 

but ofc when rhydon switches in you have no idea which is which and if you guess wrong you are likely too loose something.

[lr]

this sounds more like support then uber offensive to me. rhydon can not by its self sweep a team. it can create holes which other members abuse.

 

is this pivot too good? idk i dont play anymore. just thought i would point out the support thing and say hi and ask for names on the poll. 

[BurntZebra]

Poll doesn't matter that much. If you look at the people who voted in the gengar poll, some have literally never entered any official tournament before, or others have maybe entered one once. Many did not contribute to the discussion (100+ voters and there were definitely not that many people discussing on the thread).

I think the definitions for ubers shouldn't be taken word for word because it leads to misinterpreting pokemon as not uber or a different uber. Pokemon like salamence, dragonite, and tyranitar were clearly offensive uber, but they were also unhealthy for the meta in multiple ways (except salamence since it was quickbanned). Rhydon is in a similar situation, sure it doesn't sweep like dragon dance salamence, but it ohkos all but ~4 pokemon in UU, which is still offensive uber to me. It also is unhealthy as it severely limits the usage of anything that runs normal/flying/rock/fire/seismic toss, and stall/balance have no answers to it. It just so happens that tyranitar also made stall/balance unviable and forced people to only run pokemon that could immediately threaten/outspeed and ko tyranitar.

[KingBowser]

I forgot how Rhydon gets sandstorm and negates leftis for stall. Someone kick craig from the team behaving like this. If you are gonna make a comparison, then the correct comparison is crawdaunt. Which crawdaunt outclasses.

[BurntZebra]

I forgot how Rhydon gets sandstorm and negates leftis for stall. Someone kick craig from the team behaving like this. If you are gonna make a comparison, then the correct comparison is crawdaunt. Which crawdaunt outclasses.

I forgot how crawdaunt is a rock/ground type pokemon that does over 70% to every pokemon in the meta. Silly me. Also tyranitar wasn't banned because of sandstorm particularly, especially since sandstorm only lasts for 5 turns now. It was banned because the choice band set had no safe switch ins, outside of hitmontop, and protect scouting didn't work because it could also run a set up set. 

[KingBowser]

I forgot how crawdaunt is a rock/ground type pokemon that does over 70% to every pokemon in the meta. Silly me. Also tyranitar wasn't banned because of sandstorm particularly, especially since sandstorm only lasts for 5 turns now. It was banned because the choice band set had no safe switch ins, outside of hitmontop, and protect scouting didn't work because it could also run a set up set. 

"A wall breaker shouldn't necessarily be able to break through EVERY wall, but just some of them. Crawdaunt breaks through vileplume/slowking/steelix, but people can run stuff like hitmontop/breloom/quagsire which can all pivot in and out of cb crawdaunt fairly well."-BurntZebra

Also massive LOL here. I forgot how much Hitmontop likes CB waterfalls with hyper cutter, brelooms likes superpower, and Quasire likes defense drops.

Quit being so dramatic, yea it can do 70% if its a god at prediction and has CB with +2 agility. You are so ignorant when you compare the two, I already explain earlier why the comparison isnt there, sandstorm was what made it even better. I'm pretty sure if a pokemon is to be label offensive uber, it has to be unstoppable against every playstyle. Offense has little struggle and nor balance. Lightleaks and Aramanius both won UU officials with no Rhydon using balance teams. If we are gonna just be banning pokes that makes it more difficult for play styles then manetric is one that clearly has to go. Offense gets like no switch ins, but nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Edited August 30, 2015 by KingBowser

[LionKIng]

I forgot how crawdaunt is a rock/ground type pokemon that does over 70% to every pokemon in the meta. Silly me. Also tyranitar wasn't banned because of sandstorm particularly, especially since sandstorm only lasts for 5 turns now. It was banned because the choice band set had no safe switch ins, outside of hitmontop, and protect scouting didn't work because it could also run a set up set. 

To be completly fair i think you can't compare Ttar with rhydon, Ttar is much more bulkyer on both sides and can only be koed by a strong stab attack or a fighting attack from a strong attacker. It can not be revenge killed by many special atackers since its that bulky. I think Bowser is right on point saying Crawdaunt and Rhydon are really similar, Both have 2 stab attacks that are hard to wall with a strong third 120 base power move. But they are both weak to revenge killing on the special side since they are pretty much paper, i must agree doe rhydon has better physical switches then crawdaunt.

[BurntZebra]

"A wall breaker shouldn't necessarily be able to break through EVERY wall, but just some of them. Crawdaunt breaks through vileplume/slowking/steelix, but people can run stuff like hitmontop/breloom/quagsire which can all pivot in and out of cb crawdaunt fairly well."-BurntZebra

Also massive LOL here. I forgot how much Hitmontop likes CB waterfalls with hyper cutter, brelooms likes superpower, and Quasire likes defense drops.

Quit being so dramatic, yea it can do 70% if its a god at prediction and has CB with +2 agility. You are so ignorant when you compare the two, I already explain earlier why the comparison isnt there, sandstorm was what made it even better. I'm pretty sure if a pokemon is to be label offensive uber, it has to be unstoppable against every playstyle. Offense has little struggle and nor balance. Lightleaks and Aramanius both won UU officials with no Rhydon using balance teams. If we are gonna just be banning pokes that makes it more difficult for play styles than manetric is one that clearly has to go. Offense gets like no switch ins, but nobody seems to have a problem with it.

Hm I guess I forgot that crawdaunt was hyper cutter, but breloom and quagsire are both answers still, can't just assume you'll get def drops, if you assume rng somewhere, then you have to assume it everywhere. I mean if you consider it predicting to spam stab earthquake to hit everything for 70%, then yeah prediction master. I assume people will only run 1-2 ground resists in a common match, just because the ground resists are pretty trash, outside of absorbing eqs, not to mention they are all ohko'ed by rhydons coverage moves, meaning one wrong predict and they are out of commission. 

 

Offensive uber doesn't really need to be good vs every match up, or else salamence wouldn't have been banned, and chansey wouldn't be banworthy either, because there are playstyles that do well vs them. 

 

I don't really see how manectric does anything in particular. Stall has plenty of counters to manectric. Balance usually runs some of the same pokemon as stall so it has manectric covered as well. Offense has swellow, altaria, hitmonlee, houndoom, kangaskhan, and donphan all to handle manectric. 

[KingBowser]

Hm I guess I forgot that crawdaunt was hyper cutter, but breloom and quagsire are both answers still, can't just assume you'll get def drops, if you assume rng somewhere, then you have to assume it everywhere. I mean if you consider it predicting to spam stab earthquake to hit everything for 70%, then yeah prediction master. I assume people will only run 1-2 ground resists in a common match, just because the ground resists are pretty trash, outside of absorbing eqs, not to mention they are all ohko'ed by rhydons coverage moves, meaning one wrong predict and they are out of commission. 

 

Offensive uber doesn't really need to be good vs every match up, or else salamence wouldn't have been banned, and chansey wouldn't be banworthy either, because there are playstyles that do well vs them. 

 

I don't really see how manectric does anything in particular. Stall has plenty of counters to manectric. Balance usually runs some of the same pokemon as stall so it has manectric covered as well. Offense has swellow, altaria, hitmonlee, houndoom, kangaskhan, and donphan all to handle manectric. 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 243-287 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 122-144 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Perfect pivot
There is a point where RNG turns into math. Lets see, 30% chance to drop, quasire switchins on the first crunch, crawdaunt crunches again, quasire recovers, crawdaunt crunches, quasire has to recover again, crawdaunt crunches again, quasire has to recover again. Its pretty clearly quasire gonna lose this one, what the hell is quasire gonna do back to it? Toxic it?
Salamence was good in every match up, it could DD up to sweep offense and CB dclaw + mag just broke stall+balance. Salamence had amazing typing and intimidate. Chansey was amazing in every match up. Like do you even watch tournaments, its why like all the winning teams in UU ran chansey, gave out infinite support. Telling me rhydon does the same as these two? Please stop typing.
 

Yes all those can beat manatric one on one, but like rhydon, how many of those can switch in on it?
 

[BurntZebra]

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 243-287 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 122-144 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
Perfect pivot
There is a point where RNG turns into math. Lets see, 30% chance to drop, quasire switchins on the first crunch, crawdaunt crunches again, quasire recovers, crawdaunt crunches, quasire has to recover again, crawdaunt crunches again, quasire has to recover again. Its pretty clearly quasire gonna lose this one, what the hell is quasire gonna do back to it? Toxic it?
Salamence was good in every match up, it could DD up to sweep offense and CB dclaw + mag just broke stall+balance. Salamence had amazing typing and intimidate. Chansey was amazing in every match up. Like do you even watch tournaments, its why like all the winning teams in UU ran chansey, gave out infinite support. Telling me rhydon does the same as these two? Please stop typing.
 

Yes all those can beat manatric one on one, but like rhydon, how many of those can switch in on it?
 

I meant defensive breloom. I imagine vileplume isn't great at taking hits when its running 252 sp atk/252 speed either. Quagsire is great at pivoting in vs crawdaunt to see what it does, because crawdaunt can't always spam crunch, when things like steelix/scizor/breloom exist. Quagsire can pretty safely take a crunch, then switch out if it gets a def drop, or pp stall crawdaunt with recover until crawdaunt gets a def drop, then switch out to a dark resist. 

 

Salamence was pretty limited in some match ups. Vs offense, it had very limited switch in opportunities. Stall would have multiple answers to salamence like skarmory, slowbro, weezing, or metagross. Chansey wasn't great in all match ups, ones that ran offense+trapinch destroyed chansey. Anyone who ran misdreavus or haunter crippled chansey greatly. Chansey also didn't get a lot of breathing room in a 4 choice band team.

 

Rhydon does good vs anyone who runs balance, stall, or offense that runs kangaskhan, swellow, charizard, houndoom,  or any defensive pokemon like clefable, hypno, or a defensive kangaskhan. 

 

An offensive playstyle is obviously different from defensive/balanced variants. At the cost of having more offense and being able to sweep easier, you give up safe switches and rely on revenge killing to take on specific threats. Stall does not rely on revenge killing, but relies on walls to take hits from specific threats. Balance is a combination of these two usually. 

[NikhilR]

I meant defensive breloom. I imagine vileplume isn't great at taking hits when its running 252 sp atk/252 speed either. Quagsire is great at pivoting in vs crawdaunt to see what it does, because crawdaunt can't always spam crunch, when things like steelix/scizor/breloom exist. Quagsire can pretty safely take a crunch, then switch out if it gets a def drop, or pp stall crawdaunt with recover until crawdaunt gets a def drop, then switch out to a dark resist. 

 

Salamence was pretty limited in some match ups. Vs offense, it had very limited switch in opportunities. Stall would have multiple answers to salamence like skarmory, slowbro, weezing, or metagross. Chansey wasn't great in all match ups, ones that ran offense+trapinch destroyed chansey. Anyone who ran misdreavus or haunter crippled chansey greatly. Chansey also didn't get a lot of breathing room in a 4 choice band team.

 

Rhydon does good vs anyone who runs balance, stall, or offense that runs kangaskhan, swellow, charizard, houndoom,  or any defensive pokemon like clefable, hypno, or a defensive kangaskhan. 

 

An offensive playstyle is obviously different from defensive/balanced variants. At the cost of having more offense and being able to sweep easier, you give up safe switches and rely on revenge killing to take on specific threats. Stall does not rely on revenge killing, but relies on walls to take hits from specific threats. Balance is a combination of these two usually. 

 

Really Zebra, defensive Breloom? Hitmontop? Those are your answers for Crawdaunt? Those 2 are hardly going to be used with Slowking, Vileplume and Exeggutor, Dusclops running around in this meta which will punish you for running them (top+breloom). Stop mentioning things that aren't even closely viable. Poliwrath is a much better answer than what you've mentioned and even that isn't used. That says something, doesn't it?

 

Anyone who ran Chansey, also ran Scizor or Kangaskhan to deal with Haunter/Misd. Still doesn't take away how amazing its support is and you and I both know that offense consists of both special+physical pokemon. Chansey shut down stall, balance and specially offensive playing style. Those who ran either 1-2 choicebanders would need to switch their bander on a predicted protect in order to prevent chansey from going to the necessary counter. Running 4 choicebanders is too extreme and not sure if you're even suggesting this. 

 

"Rhydon does good against offense like kanga, swellow, houndoom, zard"

 

Kangaskhan can run EQ to hurt Rhydon.

Swellow can run Steel Wing to hurt Rhydon

Houndoom can run hp grass

Zard can run hp grass

 

If you mention that Houndoom/Zard are running hp grass for rhydon only, then nope. It's useful vs lanturn, quagsire, crawdaunt as well. Swellow is the only thing that is sacrificing a move (QA most likely) for steel wing. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

Really Zebra, defensive Breloom? Hitmontop? Those are your answers for Crawdaunt? Those 2 are hardly going to be used with Slowking, Vileplume and Exeggutor, Dusclops running around in this meta which will punish you for running them (top+breloom). Stop mentioning things that aren't even closely viable. Poliwrath is a much better answer than what you've mentioned and even that isn't used. That says something, doesn't it?

 

Anyone who ran Chansey, also ran Scizor or Kangaskhan to deal with Haunter/Misd. Still doesn't take away how amazing its support is and you and I both know that offense consists of both special+physical pokemon. Chansey shut down stall, balance and specially offensive playing style. Those who ran either 1-2 choicebanders would need to switch their bander on a predicted protect in order to prevent chansey from going to the necessary counter. Running 4 choicebanders is too extreme and not sure if you're even suggesting this. 

 

"Rhydon does good against offense like kanga, swellow, houndoom, zard"

 

Kangaskhan can run EQ to hurt Rhydon.

Swellow can run Steel Wing to hurt Rhydon

Houndoom can run hp grass

Zard can run hp grass

 

If you mention that Houndoom/Zard are running hp grass for rhydon only, then nope. It's useful vs lanturn, quagsire, crawdaunt as well. Swellow is the only thing that is sacrificing a move (QA most likely) for steel wing. 

You're dissecting my argument too much. Breloom was just an example I thought of at the time, there are weird answers to crawdaunt, but there aren't even weird answers to rhydon, just because of its insane coverage. 

 

The 4 choice bander thing was just an idea, I never really ran full offense in UU, but in our meta, physical attackers are way better than special attackers due to choice band being available, but not life orb or choice specs, and more attack boosting options/better attacks in general. 

 

Kangaskhan and swellow can only 3hko rhydon with their coverage moves, and in the case of swellow, swellow really does not want to lock itself into steel wing or else it will die very quickly from cb pursuit scizor. Even though kangaskhan most likely won't be choice band locked, its not always ideal to earthquake on a predicted rhydon switch, since kangaskhan really needs to hit pokemon like haunter, misdreavus, charizard, and xatu. Not to mention earthquake return rest toxic kanga can't even touch haunter/misdreavus behind a sub, but I guess that's the cost of not being bait for rhydon. 

[KingBowser]

I cant take burnt seriously.
Defensive Breloom is op
Quasire counters crawdaunt by swiching out on it.
I guess Salamence should be legal in OU
4 CB teams destroyed chansey
Gimmick tranpinch was only used cause of how centralizing chansey was.  0 percent usage now.
Charizard/Doom can never run hp grass.
Cause Kanga cant run 18moves to cover NU pokes, rhydon should be banned.



 

Edited August 30, 2015 by KingBowser

[BurntZebra]

I cant take burnt seriously.
Defensive Breloom is op
Quasire counters crawdaunt by swiching out on it.
I guess Salamence should be legal in OU
4 CB teams destroyed chansey
Gimmick tranpinch was only used cause of how centralizing chansey was.  0 percent usage now.
Charizard/Doom can never run hp grass.
Cause Kanga cant run 18moves to cover NU pokes, rhydon should be banned.

Defensive breloom has its niche, has a somewhat unique typing giving it some decent resists, has instant recovery, 100% accurate sleep move, stab priority, what's not to like. Quagsire can come in vs crawdaunt, see what it does, if it waterfalls or superpowers, it is free to toxic or recover, if it crunches, then it can recover, gaining anywhere from 1-20 hp per turn, until crawdaunt gets a defense drop, or you get enough hp to toxic/curse and then recover again. Salamence would be quite centralizing in OU, since people would have to run many checks/counters to it, but it wouldn't be an instant sweeping machine in OU, just like rhydon. Are you going to tell me that 4 choice banders wouldn't beat chansey? My hitmonlee begs to differ. I just mentioned trapinch because you mentioned magneton being used in conjunction with salamence, since magneton is only used for skarmory really, and trapinch is only used for chansey, umbreon, clefable, and low hp sweepers like manectric. I don't think a charizard should be forced to run hp grass, especially since it can run hp ice for altaria, solarbeam to ohko lanturn/quagsire, ancient power for other charizards, and drum zard doesn't really have room for hp grass either. Houndoom can definitely run hp grass, but it makes any houndoom not running hp grass pretty unviable, since its bait for rhydon then. If you haven't realized, chansey, umbreon, and porygon are all OU now, meaning special attackers like haunter, misdreavus, and xatu are a lot more viable now, and will probably rise with the next usage update. 

[DoubleJ]

 If you haven't realized, chansey, umbreon, and porygon are all OU now, meaning special attackers like haunter, misdreavus, and xatu are a lot more viable now, and will probably rise with the next usage update. 

 

#Rhydon4NU

[BurntZebra]

#Rhydon4NU

mfw uu tier council finally posts on important uu tier thread. joke post

[DoubleJ]

mfw uu tier council finally posts on important uu tier thread. joke post

Not really. Rhydon usage may drop down to nu potential tbh.

Lf usage stats