[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[DoubleJ]

Honestly, if you guys want to ban it to see what will happen, go ahead. It really doesn't make much difference imo.

 

I wouldn't say I'm against the Chansey ban, I just think it's a little pointless. You do what you gotta do Jbrah.

 

I think we just need a couple more OU tournaments to affirm how problematic Chansey really is. If you can recall the OU Marathon tournament series we saw Raaidn and Frags having the majority of success.

 

I believe their success was attributable to how they utilized Chansey and its ability to support multiple play-styles and pivot through nearly every special attacking threat. 

 

We'll see though. 

[Robofiend]

Umbreon has its perks too. Doesn't care about pursuit, resists ghost + dark with psychic immunity. Sure it can't NC but it can sync which is handy. You can replace protect with aroma since you don't need to worry about pursuit. The only 2 signal users I can think of are Espeon and Zam.. I'v not calc'd but I think Umbreon can win.

 

Espeon can be built to win against Umbreon (and to Survive CB Aero's Pursuit) while still snagging the KO on Umbreon (esp. if it runs Morning Sun):

 

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 50-60 (33.5 - 40.2%) -- 11.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 124-147 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 90-106 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Zam also has options against Umbreon, although it's admittedly worse just from a lack of bulk:

 

+2 252+ SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 62-74 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(if Zam lives boosts on the switch, boosts on the first Pursuit, attacks on the second and lives it is likely to win as after 2 turns of lefties recovery, Umbreon should have about 56% health at best)

 

Pursuit/Toxic also does way less against special sweepers not named Starmie, and is far less threatening than losing 1/3 of your HP on your Heracross or something when you swap in against a Seismic Toss. 

[KaynineXL]

Espeon can be built to win against Umbreon (and to Survive CB Aero's Pursuit) while still snagging the KO on Umbreon (esp. if it runs Morning Sun):

 

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 50-60 (33.5 - 40.2%) -- 11.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 124-147 (83.2 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. 74 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 90-106 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Zam also has options against Umbreon, although it's admittedly worse just from a lack of bulk:

 

+2 252+ SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 62-74 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(if Zam lives boosts on the switch, boosts on the first Pursuit, attacks on the second and lives it is likely to win as after 2 turns of lefties recovery, Umbreon should have about 56% health at best)

 

Pursuit/Toxic also does way less against special sweepers not named Starmie, and is far less threatening than losing 1/3 of your HP on your Heracross or something when you swap in against a Seismic Toss. 

What about with bite.

[BurntZebra]

I'm seeing some flawed logic here. People are saying a Chansey ban is justifiable because other Pokemon can have a similar role, which makes no sense at all, especially when chanseys usage is not much higher than porygon2.

We shouldn't be banning things just for the fun of it. It would be like banning Hariyama because other Pokemon have a similar role (machamp) so the ban in theory wouldn't affect the meta much. But obviously there has to be some point to bans.

If a Chansey ban won't make special attackers significantly more viable, then there's no reason to ban it under the unhealthy characteristic.

[DoubleJ]

Zebra you missed the pretext to that post about viability of other special walls. Please read back a few posts.

[Robofiend]

I'm seeing some flawed logic here. People are saying a Chansey ban is justifiable because other Pokemon can have a similar role, which makes no sense at all, especially when chanseys usage is not much higher than porygon2.

We shouldn't be banning things just for the fun of it. It would be like banning Hariyama because other Pokemon have a similar role (machamp) so the ban in theory wouldn't affect the meta much. But obviously there has to be some point to bans.

If a Chansey ban won't make special attackers significantly more viable, then there's no reason to ban it under the unhealthy characteristic.

 

You're really just being uncharitable here so let me explain all of the points I've made and why you're constructing a strawman (not chill, brah):

 

1. Similar =/= Exact

2. Pokemon similar to Chansey exist and check forces that people claim would be too strong without Chansey (which is a good thing to consider before making random-ass bans)

3. Chansey does a better job at Support/Cleric/Toxic defense/Entry Damage/etc. than other similar pokemon

4. Chansey is centralizing and/or bad for the game in one way or another 

5. Even if banning Chansey doesn't vastly improve the viability of special sweepers it might still have payoffs in the diversity of special walls department.

 

You can't debate 1, you can't debate 2, you can't really even debate 3 (I think it's well established by everyone that Chansey is a superior special wall in almost every department besides checking CM users and please don't say fucking Porygon2 again because it can't Wish/Protect or deal with status without relying on Chansey's presence in the tier). You can debate 4, and I welcome that because it's obviously the weakest link in this argument. You could debate 5, I guess, but keep in mind I'm being charitable here by assuming you're right about special sweepers remaining bad. Like I say, even if special sweepers aren't super highly used, they'll appreciate at least having the chance. 

 

I just showed an example (CM) of how special sweepers could adapt to something like Umbreon, should people choose to use it (never mind the fact that its worse than Chansey at doing the special wall thing). That's reason enough to accept the idea that special sweepers could become more viable, especially in light of calcs like:

 

[spoiler]

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (78 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (85.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (94.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (78 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(ofc Charcoal gives a much appreciated power boost here)

+1 252+ SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 172-204 (91.9 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 158-186 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 158-186 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(keep in mind Zam has +5 SpA on Espy, so similar calcs for timid Zam)

[/spoiler]

 

In other words, people would have to be afraid of something other than Physical attackers and if Porygon2 got trapped, statused or otherwise killed, CM would be a pretty legit strategy, assuming some damage against other would-be checks. Of course, it might not be a surefire win, but that's kind of the goal of having a balanced metagame.

 

What about with bite.

 

Sure, run bite, idc. You may come to regret it, however, when you can't get that clutch Pursuit damage on Starmie or Toxic a Slowbro to death. All I'm saying is that Umbreon has to make choices about what it runs, which can hurt its ability to blanket check the whole special side of the tier and still be effective as a supporter. Chansey doesn't have those choices because it doesn't need Heal Bell to stay healthy or a different attacking move - ST hits everything for at least some damage. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

You're really just being uncharitable here so let me explain all of the points I've made and why you're constructing a strawman (not chill, brah):

 

1. Similar =/= Exact

2. Pokemon similar to Chansey exist and check forces that people claim would be too strong without Chansey (which is a good thing to consider before making random-ass bans)

3. Chansey does a better job at Support/Cleric/Toxic defense/Entry Damage/etc. than other similar pokemon

4. Chansey is centralizing and/or bad for the game in one way or another 

5. Even if banning Chansey doesn't vastly improve the viability of special sweepers it might still have payoffs in the diversity of special walls department.

 

You can't debate 1, you can't debate 2, you can't really even debate 3 (I think it's well established by everyone that Chansey is a superior special wall in almost every department besides checking CM users and please don't say fucking Porygon2 again because it can't Wish/Protect or deal with status without relying on Chansey's presence in the tier). You can debate 4, and I welcome that because it's obviously the weakest link in this argument. You could debate 5, I guess, but keep in mind I'm being charitable here by assuming you're right about special sweepers remaining bad. Like I say, even if special sweepers aren't super highly used, they'll appreciate at least having the chance. 

 

I just showed an example (CM) of how special sweepers could adapt to something like Umbreon, should people choose to use it (never mind the fact that its worse than Chansey at doing the special wall thing). That's reason enough to accept the idea that special sweepers could become more viable, especially in light of calcs like:

 

[spoiler]

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (78 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (85.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (94.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 146-174 (78 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(ofc Charcoal gives a much appreciated power boost here)

+1 252+ SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 172-204 (91.9 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+1 252 SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 158-186 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Charcoal Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 158-186 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(keep in mind Zam has +5 SpA on Espy, so similar calcs for timid Zam)

[/spoiler]

 

In other words, people would have to be afraid of something other than Physical attackers and if Porygon2 got trapped, statused or otherwise killed, CM would be a pretty legit strategy, assuming some damage against other would-be checks. Of course, it might not be a surefire win, but that's kind of the goal of having a balanced metagame.

 

 

Sure, run bite, idc. You may come to regret it, however, when you can't get that clutch Pursuit damage on Starmie or Toxic a Slowbro to death. All I'm saying is that Umbreon has to make choices about what it runs, which can hurt its ability to blanket check the whole special side of the tier and still be effective as a supporter. Chansey doesn't have those choices because it doesn't need Heal Bell to stay healthy or a different attacking move - ST hits everything for at least some damage. 

1. sure why not. although they're pretty close in the fact that porygon has actual offensive presence with a bit less defense, while chansey doesn't have much offense but its a bit harder to break on the specially defensive side.

 

2. not really relevant to the argument. If there are pokemon that are better special walls than chansey, then why even suspect chansey?

 

3. I'll agree that chansey is the best cleric that has NC (its the only one kek), but I wouldn't really call that a banworthy characteristic. Other special walls have better entry damage capabilities and are either immune to toxic or can cause a toxic to backfire, ie synchronizing a toxic back to ludicolo/arcanine/porygon2.

 

4. Too generic of a statement. Any pokemon in that 25-35% usage range could be defined as centralizing since you have a decent chance of seeing one in day to day tournament play. Not really convinced that its bad for the meta game either, at least not more than any other highly used pokemon like metagross/arcanine

 

5. I don't really see it getting any more diverse than it already is. Most will just replace chansey with porygon2, which is already at 30% usage, or some might go with umbreon. So basically a 1 for 1 trade off at best, not exactly improving diversity. Kind of doubt people will run clefable since its pretty meh. 

 

Calm mind sweepers still won't be used in most situations. Metagross/aerodactyl/umbreon/porygon2 hurt their viability too much. And like I've said before, special attackers will still be walled pretty hard by umbreon/porygon/ludicolo/venusaur (starmie to a lesser extent). If you look at usage, the top 8 pokemon hurt the viability of calm minders. There's a reason why calm minders aren't used much and chansey is definitely not the whole reason, maybe one part, but I'd say the metagross usage is the most discouraging for calm minders. Also charcoal is only 10% on here, so charcoal calcs are wrong anyways. 

 

Also trapping porygon2 isn't really a viable argument to the viability of special attackers, since chansey is even more susceptible to trapping (OG trapinch). 

[KaynineXL]

Sure, run bite, idc. You may come to regret it, however, when you can't get that clutch Pursuit damage on Starmie or Toxic a Slowbro to death. All I'm saying is that Umbreon has to make choices about what it runs, which can hurt its ability to blanket check the whole special side of the tier and still be effective as a supporter. Chansey doesn't have those choices because it doesn't need Heal Bell to stay healthy or a different attacking move - ST hits everything for at least some damage. 

If Chansey gets banned and everyone uses Umbreon and Pory, people would have to be brave to use Starmie while expecting the pursuit umbreon. Even if you can't get that 'clutch' pursuit on Starmie.. It's an extremely good trade when you consider it allows you to get rid of Espy+Zam. Like I said, there is no reason why you can't bring toxic for Slowbro.

 

Toxic, Bite, Heal bell, Wish.

• No Slowbro is setting up on you(Let's not forget how awesome it is to be immune to psychic... no sp def drops).
• Bite deals more damage than pursuit and will stop cmers. The flinch chance.. how clutch? Let's not forget how many of our special attacks have dark weakness.
• Heal bell. Not only can we remove status from ourself, but our whole team. We will miss protecting to lock in those Cbers, but at least we have dark resist with great natural defense bulk so we can switch freely(even getting those free wish passes without the worry of being pursuited).
• Wish to support the team.

On top of this we get Synchronise.

 

This isn't an argument to say which one is better, because I'd go for Chansey ofc. I'm just saying they aren't that far apart in the same role they play.

Edited October 5, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Robofiend]

1. sure why not. although they're pretty close in the fact that porygon has actual offensive presence with a bit less defense, while chansey doesn't have much offense but its a bit harder to break on the specially defensive side.

No I'm not saying anything about pokemon here, simply that when I say "similar" i don't mean "exact". Not a tough concept.

 

2. not really relevant to the argument. If there are pokemon that are better special walls than chansey, then why even suspect chansey?

Yes it is: part of the argument against banning Chansey is "X will be too strong" which I've made a point to show isn't true. I'm saying Chansey is essentially overkill for the threat of special attackers, who won't necessarily be S-rank without Chansey, but at least have a chance to do some damage.

 

3. I'll agree that chansey is the best cleric that has NC (its the only one kek), but I wouldn't really call that a banworthy characteristic. Other special walls have better entry damage capabilities and are either immune to toxic or can cause a toxic to backfire, ie synchronizing a toxic back to ludicolo/arcanine/porygon2.

Alright, thank you for agreeing. If you understand this point, you should understand my two above points? Also, for fuck's sake, I'm not saying that having NC+Wish is inherently banworthy. If you've read my posts, you've read a lot about everything else which makes Chansey so good - NC, Wish/Protect, Seismic Toss, Normal typing, good performance against common Phys ical attackers, etc. give Chansey a set of characteristics that make it banworthy (or so I'm tentatively arguing). Again, a strawman/reductionist argument on your part.

 

4. Too generic of a statement. Any pokemon in that 25-35% usage range could be defined as centralizing since you have a decent chance of seeing one in day to day tournament play. Not really convinced that its bad for the meta game either, at least not more than any other highly used pokemon like metagross/arcanine

That's okay, you don't have to agree that it's centralizing. Like I said, this is the weakest part of my argument and usage may show me to be wrong in the coming weeks (I doubt it, however).

 

5. I don't really see it getting any more diverse than it already is. Most will just replace chansey with porygon2, which is already at 30% usage, or some might go with umbreon. So basically a 1 for 1 trade off at best, not exactly improving diversity. Kind of doubt people will run clefable since its pretty meh. 

I could see people opting for Venu/Umbreon or Ludi/Vap or Swampert/Tentacruel/Metagross or any number of offesive/defensive cores. Porygon2 is an awesome pokemon but running something like Porygon2/Umbreon  Offense type people might also just say "fuckit" and run Cleric Jolteon or Wish Jolteon instead of resorting to using a full-on Cleric (something I'd honestly consider, given that Jolteon can pass wishes to P2 checks all day). I guess the point is that you can't really predict with great accuracy what's going to usage after a ban, and that good players might think of a workaround that gives them more offense than just taking P2. 

 

Calm mind sweepers still won't be used in most situations. Metagross/aerodactyl/umbreon/porygon2 hurt their viability too much. And like I've said before, special attackers will still be walled pretty hard by umbreon/porygon/ludicolo/venusaur (starmie to a lesser extent). If you look at usage, the top 8 pokemon hurt the viability of calm minders. There's a reason why calm minders aren't used much and chansey is definitely not the whole reason, maybe one part, but I'd say the metagross usage is the most discouraging for calm minders. Also charcoal is only 10% on here, so charcoal calcs are wrong anyways. 

 

Idk Slowbro's pretty close to being top of the tier, and is a Calm Minder. We can argue all day about what will happen in the wake of a ban, but as you recall, we're supposed to be focusing on discussing the traits of the pokemon in question.

 

Also trapping porygon2 isn't really a viable argument to the viability of special attackers, since chansey is even more susceptible to trapping (OG trapinch). 

 

Yeah I see that, I was just pointing out that if Porygon2 died somehow then Calm Minders would have a better chance. I already did the calcs to show that Espeon can live a CB Aero RS/Pursuit with the right set, OHKO Metagross or plow through Umbreon (with some luck+leftives). That doesn't mean it will get used a shitload, but it does mean it'll be viable. 

[lVlusay]

If usage is a problem, then I remind you people that we are talking about OU. And if somebody didn't know OU means OVERUSED. I don't know why are you trying to turn OU into UU by banning all the pokemons that are used a lot. Usage shouldn't be a problem in OU. If the Pokemon wasn't used a lot it wouldn't be OU.

In terms of diversity, I don't understand why having a check to cm users and a very good special wall in the tier is less important than diversity. You can ban chansey, umbreon, porygon and ludi and people will resort to other means to wall special attacks, in some cases extreme means like sp.def metagross, clefeable, even sp.def kingdra with rest if you will, whatever you want and here is your diversity. Buy why should we resort to this measures if we already have special walls in the tier that are very good at doing their job.

Edited October 6, 2015 by lVlusay

[BurntZebra]

 

1. sure why not. although they're pretty close in the fact that porygon has actual offensive presence with a bit less defense, while chansey doesn't have much offense but its a bit harder to break on the specially defensive side.

No I'm not saying anything about pokemon here, simply that when I say "similar" i don't mean "exact". Not a tough concept.

 

2. not really relevant to the argument. If there are pokemon that are better special walls than chansey, then why even suspect chansey?

Yes it is: part of the argument against banning Chansey is "X will be too strong" which I've made a point to show isn't true. I'm saying Chansey is essentially overkill for the threat of special attackers, who won't necessarily be S-rank without Chansey, but at least have a chance to do some damage.

 

3. I'll agree that chansey is the best cleric that has NC (its the only one kek), but I wouldn't really call that a banworthy characteristic. Other special walls have better entry damage capabilities and are either immune to toxic or can cause a toxic to backfire, ie synchronizing a toxic back to ludicolo/arcanine/porygon2.

Alright, thank you for agreeing. If you understand this point, you should understand my two above points? Also, for fuck's sake, I'm not saying that having NC+Wish is inherently banworthy. If you've read my posts, you've read a lot about everything else which makes Chansey so good - NC, Wish/Protect, Seismic Toss, Normal typing, good performance against common Phys ical attackers, etc. give Chansey a set of characteristics that make it banworthy (or so I'm tentatively arguing). Again, a strawman/reductionist argument on your part.

 

4. Too generic of a statement. Any pokemon in that 25-35% usage range could be defined as centralizing since you have a decent chance of seeing one in day to day tournament play. Not really convinced that its bad for the meta game either, at least not more than any other highly used pokemon like metagross/arcanine

That's okay, you don't have to agree that it's centralizing. Like I said, this is the weakest part of my argument and usage may show me to be wrong in the coming weeks (I doubt it, however).

 

5. I don't really see it getting any more diverse than it already is. Most will just replace chansey with porygon2, which is already at 30% usage, or some might go with umbreon. So basically a 1 for 1 trade off at best, not exactly improving diversity. Kind of doubt people will run clefable since its pretty meh. 

I could see people opting for Venu/Umbreon or Ludi/Vap or Swampert/Tentacruel/Metagross or any number of offesive/defensive cores. Porygon2 is an awesome pokemon but running something like Porygon2/Umbreon  Offense type people might also just say "fuckit" and run Cleric Jolteon or Wish Jolteon instead of resorting to using a full-on Cleric (something I'd honestly consider, given that Jolteon can pass wishes to P2 checks all day). I guess the point is that you can't really predict with great accuracy what's going to usage after a ban, and that good players might think of a workaround that gives them more offense than just taking P2. 

 

Calm mind sweepers still won't be used in most situations. Metagross/aerodactyl/umbreon/porygon2 hurt their viability too much. And like I've said before, special attackers will still be walled pretty hard by umbreon/porygon/ludicolo/venusaur (starmie to a lesser extent). If you look at usage, the top 8 pokemon hurt the viability of calm minders. There's a reason why calm minders aren't used much and chansey is definitely not the whole reason, maybe one part, but I'd say the metagross usage is the most discouraging for calm minders. Also charcoal is only 10% on here, so charcoal calcs are wrong anyways. 

 

Idk Slowbro's pretty close to being top of the tier, and is a Calm Minder. We can argue all day about what will happen in the wake of a ban, but as you recall, we're supposed to be focusing on discussing the traits of the pokemon in question.

 

Also trapping porygon2 isn't really a viable argument to the viability of special attackers, since chansey is even more susceptible to trapping (OG trapinch). 

 

Yeah I see that, I was just pointing out that if Porygon2 died somehow then Calm Minders would have a better chance. I already did the calcs to show that Espeon can live a CB Aero RS/Pursuit with the right set, OHKO Metagross or plow through Umbreon (with some luck+leftives). That doesn't mean it will get used a shitload, but it does mean it'll be viable. 

 

1. Not about pokemon=what is the point of bringing it up on pokemon discussion thread

 

2. I wouldn't say that is my argument. My argument is that special attackers viability will always be hindered by the fact we're gen 3. Unless we ban porygon2, chansey, umbreon, ludicolo, and kangaskhan, special attackers will have little to no chance at ever being successful. I'd say special attackers already have a certain level of viability at this point. Espeon with lum berry beats chansey 1v1. Chansey can't actually kill starmie since it has natural cure+recover, also doesn't like a sp def drop from psychic. Fake tears jolteon can beat chansey in some match ups, although needs to avoid a toxic, unless lum berry. Metal sound magneton beats chansey as we've discussed before. Defensive special attackers are still viable since that's a majority of the meta still.

 

3. I mean we can argue all day about whether being a bulky offenseless normal type is actually banworthy, but you're definitely overestimating wish+protect combo and your arguments hinges a lot on the fact that chansey will always choose the right move/toxic the right switch in/seismic toss the right switch in. If you protect while some physical attacker comes in, chansey has to switch out and has no wish to pass. If you wish, then you either give up the ability to scout for a move to wish pass to something or protect and then lose the wish when you switch out, risking a possible set up. If you toxic, could be dangerous for any guts user or steel type or poison type. Seismic toss still leaves you open to physical attackers as you won't be able to wish pass to another pokemon. I also wouldn't consider what I said a strawman argument, I was just countering your statement where you said chansey was better at toxic absorbing/entry damage capabilities. 

 

4. I doubt usage will increase that much to be honest. People will always be running something instead of chansey, since chansey leaves a lot to desire. Porygon2 fits better on a lot of teams since it can check gyarados/flygon eq spam, provide some offense etc. Ludicolo gives a lot of nice resists and can check metagross/counter arcanine/slowbro/other top tier threats, better than chansey since it has offense. 

 

5. I don't really see the point you're making here. People already run specially defensive cores since chansey can't handle all special attackers. Most people run something that can take on magneton/jolteon since they both beat chansey with their -2 sp def moves. People running defensive teams will also run another specially defensive pokemon to take on calm minders if chansey gets toxic'ed and needs to switch out. I think you've been misled if you think that people just run a chansey to handle every special attacker in the game.

 

Slowbro isn't really as exclusively a calm minder as espeon or alakazam, since it sometimes wants 3 attack coverage to handle kingdra/gyarados/metagross, or it can run thunder wave. 

 

I wouldn't really count on espeon beating umbreon, although espeon beating porygon is slightly more realistic since sp def drops are real

[NikhilR]

The fact that people remotely consider a Chansey ban is shocking, to say the least. Sure, it does wall a lot of things, but what are you guys so afraid of, seismic toss? Or its mighty 35 base special attack?

 

Chansey is anything but banworthy. The wish set can leave it exposed after switching in on a hard hit, or being pursuited while switching out. The softboiled set is a bit better, but Chansey remains predictable, and walled by so many pokemon. Please think before you ban.

 

Keith brah you need to watch some of the recent OU tournaments to know the impact that Chansey has had on the meta.

 

Chansey never switches in on a hard hit and it can scout the pursuit before switching out. Even if it is predictable, that still doesn't solve the problem of how to take it down effectively. 

 

 

Toxic, Bite, Heal bell, Wish..

 

You can't consider not running protect along with wish because that just weakens your chances of supporting your teammates when you can't wish for yourself. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by NikhilR

[KaynineXL]

You can't consider not running protect along with wish because that just weakens your chances of supporting your teammates when you can't wish for yourself. 

You can't consider not running protect? I honestly disagree. Protect is nice.. but I wouldn't go as far to say you can't consider it, especially when you don't need to worry about pursuit which gives more incentive to not use it.

 

Although, I do see what you mean. We'll have to see, I don't use much Umbreon, so it's more just theory.

Edited October 6, 2015 by KaynineXL

[bl0nde]

Chansey can scout the pursuit before switching out.

I would like it explained to me since you are a reputable player and robofiend council leader is supporting the statement. How is it that you are dismissing the use of pursuit trappers by the placement of the protect move/"scouting" on your chansey?

 

edit: and no mention of slaking was made, so I can only assume you are referring to any pursuit user in the game with the statement.

Edited October 6, 2015 by bl0nde

[KaynineXL]

I would like it explained to me since you are a reputable player and robofiend council leader is supporting the statement. How is it that you are dismissing the use of pursuit trappers by the placement of the protect move/"scouting" on your chansey?

 

edit: and no mention of slaking was made, so I can only assume you are referring to any pursuit user in the game with the statement.

If you protect scout a pursuit, you can fight the person because pursuit is only 40 dmg.

[DoubleJ]

I would like it explained to me since you are a reputable player and robofiend council leader is supporting the statement. How is it that you are dismissing the use of pursuit trappers by the placement of the protect move/"scouting" on your chansey?

 

edit: and no mention of slaking was made, so I can only assume you are referring to any pursuit user in the game with the statement.

 

Chansey can easily tank most 40BP Pursuit. So if you suspect it, simply Protect on the Pursuit and then proceed to stall it out until your opponent runs out of pp, you do, or they get impatient and swap. 

 

Slaking is an even worse Pursuit user against Chansey thanks to Truant. Protect on Pursuit, and then swap when it's loafing around. 

[NikhilR]

I would like it explained to me since you are a reputable player and robofiend council leader is supporting the statement. How is it that you are dismissing the use of pursuit trappers by the placement of the protect move/"scouting" on your chansey?

 

edit: and no mention of slaking was made, so I can only assume you are referring to any pursuit user in the game with the statement.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

 

Heracross is one of THE most powerful pursuit users, just after Metagross. Seeing as how Heracross fails to do even 25%, Chansey can just protect on the pursuit. Then wish+seismic the Heracross to death. 

 

Slaking can be taken advantage of with protect since it can attack only one turn. So when Chansey protects that very turn, Slaking is then useless / forced to switch out the next turn. 

[Gunthug]

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

 

Heracross is one of THE most powerful pursuit users, just after Metagross. Seeing as how Heracross fails to do even 25%, Chansey can just protect on the pursuit. Then wish+seismic the Heracross to death. 

 

Slaking can be taken advantage of with protect since it can attack only one turn. So when Chansey protects that very turn, Slaking is then useless / forced to switch out the next turn. 

So what happens when the hera subs/sword dances on the protect? Sweep? I know you were just using hera as an example, but it just seems like people are touting protect as this catch-all, risk free scouting move when it can lead to a loss if your opponent plays it correctly.

[DoubleJ]

So what happens when the hera subs/sword dances on the protect? Sweep? I know you were just using hera as an example, but it just seems like people are touting protect as this catch-all, risk free scouting move when it can lead to a loss if your opponent plays it correctly.

 

It's not, it's a method that is specifically favorable against Choice Band users. I think it is fairly well known that Swords Dance users have a hay day against Chansey, but they are rarely used (outside of Ursaring) because they typically don't have the same overwhelming effect on a match as a CB user. 

[Gunthug]

It's not, it's a method that is specifically favorable against Choice Band users. I think it is fairly well known that Swords Dance users have a hay day against Chansey, but they are rarely used (outside of Ursaring) because they typically don't have the same overwhelming effect on a match as a CB user. 

That bolded statement may be the case right now, I don't know. I haven't specced enough lately to know if this is true. However, if this meta were to see people shifting away from pure CB spam to set-up options like SD hera/rhydon/blaziken etc, I think it would be the natural result of a meta evolving with a powerful pokemon like chansey in it.

 

HOWEVER, in this case, I don't think I would call it over-centralization - Rather than these pokes popping up to DEAL with chansey, they're popping up to take advantage of a massive hole in chansey's abilities. Which in turn may discourage people from using chansey so much (or at least, wish/protect chansey), for fear of getting swept easily. This is the kind of ebb and flow that should play out over the course of the next few tournaments, if I'm right - and if i'm wrong, then we'll see that too.

[Robofiend]

That bolded statement may be the case right now, I don't know. I haven't specced enough lately to know if this is true. However, if this meta were to see people shifting away from pure CB spam to set-up options like SD hera/rhydon/blaziken etc, I think it would be the natural result of a meta evolving with a powerful pokemon like chansey in it.

 

HOWEVER, in this case, I don't think I would call it over-centralization - Rather than these pokes popping up to DEAL with chansey, they're popping up to take advantage of a massive hole in chansey's abilities. Which in turn may discourage people from using chansey so much (or at least, wish/protect chansey), for fear of getting swept easily. This is the kind of ebb and flow that should play out over the course of the next few tournaments, if I'm right - and if i'm wrong, then we'll see that too.

 

Actually Heracross saw a lot more usage during the Marathon, so technically you're right here. Only thing is that no one runs Rhydon/Blazechicken because they're bad, i.e. Slowbro is still popular and sits on them, which means that taking Toxic and then getting forced out of play is just a bad time. 

 

The only thing about your second paragraph is that it's actually really hard for these pokemon to sweep, even with a free setup on Chansey. Heracross can break Weezing but only if it gets the Toxic and Swords Dances (also note that the occasional Dusclops sighting is bad news for Facade Heracross, altho Megahorn may still dent the Specially Defensive variant. It also struggles a bit with Skarmo, even at +3:

 

+2 252 Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 282-332 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 310-365 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 237-280 (70.9 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Granted, if you know what your opponent has for a phys wall or Heracross check it will inform your decision. There's also the fact that Arcanine is really popular and that Heracross has trouble checking both Arcanine and Weezing and Skarmory and Slowbro at the same time.

 

 

Blaziken has no business taking on a Slowbro, though it does perform decently against Arcanine, unless it gets played and Arc switches out to something else to get the Intimidate drop:

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

Rhydon's interesting, but the most fatal problem for Rhydon is how important Sub can be to it, and how badly Toxic can mess that up. Assuming it's either Toxic'd or Subbed, however, Weezing is useless against it, Slowbro has a tought time with a +2 Megahorn (and doesn't like taking two EQ's/Rocks very much either) and Skarmory has to live in fear of the dreaded critflinch. Arcanine is also trash tier at dealing with it, although Rhydon really hates Metagross, Marowak, Flygon and Gyarados for their ability to come in on a good prediction and scare it out. Overall, not a highly viable pokemon because of its bad speed tier.

 

TL;DR I want to believe Chansey's popularity will cause people to come up with new strats, but it seems a little unlikely given what I know about how many good walls OU has.

[Gunthug]

 

Actually Heracross saw a lot more usage during the Marathon, so technically you're right here. Only thing is that no one runs Rhydon/Blazechicken because they're bad, i.e. Slowbro is still popular and sits on them, which means that taking Toxic and then getting forced out of play is just a bad time.

Let me stop you right here. I was under the impression that chansey was gonna stay on in these set-up pokes and protect-scout a choice banded pursuit. If that happens, and one of these pokes swords dances, it's over. Slowbro's getting 2hkod on the switch, skarmory's getting 2hkod on the switch, arcanine's getting 2hkod on the switch, and weezing's getting 2hko'd on the switch. And any poke that comes in and somehow isn't decimated by the set-up poke that just abused the shit out of chansey can only shake it's fists in frustration as the pokemon switches out to live another day, hoping to see that useless blob of defense come back in and allow it another set-up.

 

Now, maybe you were saying that at that point (facing a +2 poke that either now is toxiced, or just watched your chansey protect) you just sack chansey and check the set-up mon. In which case, you just lost your all-powerful special wall. OR, maybe you were ditching the whole protect-scouting a CB attack, and just going right to your physical wall. But as JJ and someone else alluded to earlier, you run the risk of taking a very very powerful CB pursuit to your chansey, and maybe losing it's viability for the game.

 

All I'm saying is using chansey takes a lot of risk. I saw someone mention earlier that guys like Frags and Raaidn had a lot of success running deep into tourney's with chansey - it's no coincidence, in my mind, that these are 2 of the most skilled players in the entire game right now. They were able to manage the immense amount of risk that comes with using chansey, and didn't leave themselves open to being destroyed by a set up mon. I don't think the average player is always going to be capable of this - nor do I think raaidn/frags will ALWAYS be able to prevent their teams from getting set up on using chansey. Pretty underwhelmed by the pro-chansey ban arguments so far

[Vaeldras]

 

 Only thing is that no one runs Rhydon/Blazechicken because they're bad, i.e. Slowbro is still popular and sits on them, which means that taking Toxic and then getting forced out of play is just a bad time. 

 

 

But what if there is no slowbro?

also shits is a bit pushing it

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[bl0nde]

I'm not really against banning chansey. Part of me finds it interesting to see greater variety among special walls. However, the thing that keeps happening in this thread is:

• first someone points out a defensive characterisitc of chansey - the advantages of wish+protect, the cleric ability of it, etc
• Then, someone says well, for that particular set, this is how you break that - pursuit hera, bulky ursaring, etc.
• Then the counter is always: "well if I use that offensive set, they can just switch out to this to protect chansey or they probably have this set on chansey that counters that".

 

Okay, that right there when you bring in pokemon other than chansey and reference multiple sets simultaneously, that is where you are no longer comparing apples to apples. For example, if you are going to reference a defensive core, it's only fair to refer to an offensive core or pair as a fair counter in the conversation. Similarly, people keep referring to different sets of chansey. If you are going to refer to multiple sets for chansey in every scenario, then in fairness you should refer to multiple sets for an offensive pokemon like heracross.

 

If people are going to keep starting out with a single threat with a single moveset then measure it against any possible chansey set with any possible partner for chansey, of course chansey will be defended properly. Isn't that a given? That is not a fair comparison.

[Robofiend]

Let me stop you right here. I was under the impression that chansey was gonna stay on in these set-up pokes and protect-scout a choice banded pursuit. If that happens, and one of these pokes swords dances, it's over. Slowbro's getting 2hkod on the switch, skarmory's getting 2hkod on the switch, arcanine's getting 2hkod on the switch, and weezing's getting 2hko'd on the switch. And any poke that comes in and somehow isn't decimated by the set-up poke that just abused the shit out of chansey can only shake it's fists in frustration as the pokemon switches out to live another day, hoping to see that useless blob of defense come back in and allow it another set-up.

 

Ah, you do have a point, although it also relies on perfect prediction from the (maybe statused) Blaziken/Heracross user.

 

I guess Chansey *could* stay in to get the Wish off when Blaziken (or whatever) goes to +2. But to me that just seems like a bad play: the Chansey user will have scouted the leftovers (I guess maybe you're using Lum, but that'd be pretty bad) and can thus infer that you're not choiced. Even if you were, Wishpassing to Slowbro is a much better play than letting a potential SD user set up, assuming Slowbro is at > 50% hp. I see your point but I think that almost anyone using these pokes would run Lefties on them just because of the threat of taking some residual damage along the way. Thus this argument relies on the idea that the Chansey user isn't that smart or that the SD user is running Lum or some other item that fakes out the Chansey user into thinking it's Choiced.

 

All I'm saying is using chansey takes a lot of risk. I saw someone mention earlier that guys like Frags and Raaidn had a lot of success running deep into tourney's with chansey - it's no coincidence, in my mind, that these are 2 of the most skilled players in the entire game right now. They were able to manage the immense amount of risk that comes with using chansey, and didn't leave themselves open to being destroyed by a set up mon. I don't think the average player is always going to be capable of this - nor do I think raaidn/frags will ALWAYS be able to prevent their teams from getting set up on using chansey. Pretty underwhelmed by the pro-chansey ban arguments so far

 

The other way of looking at this scenario is that both players had Chanseys and realized how effective they would be in the current metagame to get them into the finals. Is it really a coincidence that two of the most successful players frequently used this pokemon while a lot of other players did not? In my eyes, later-round usage of a pokemon is more indicative that a pokemon is lower-risk and higher-reward, given that a player has used it to get to the finals of a tournament without being eliminated - even a skilled player would have trouble getting to the finals if they were using Mightyena (cough, Goldeneyes). Higher risk and lower reward pokemon like Manectric, Clefable or Blaziken don't make it to the finals of anything because they're bad - Arcanine, Metagross and Chansey did because they're good, or at least better than other possible options.

 

But what if there is no slowbro?

also shits is a bit pushing it

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

* sits

Note the 98.8% proability that this is a 3HKO, not a 2HKO.

Do the calc for Slowbro Surf and it'll become apparent who wins that matchup.

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Robofiend