[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Gunthug]

 

Ah, you do have a point, although it also relies on perfect prediction from the (maybe statused) Blaziken/Heracross user.

 

I guess Chansey *could* stay in to get the Wish off when Blaziken (or whatever) goes to +2. But to me that just seems like a bad play: the Chansey user will have scouted the leftovers (I guess maybe you're using Lum, but that'd be pretty bad) and can thus infer that you're not choiced. Even if you were, Wishpassing to Slowbro is a much better play than letting a potential SD user set up, assuming Slowbro is at > 50% hp. I see your point but I think that almost anyone using these pokes would run Lefties on them just because of the threat of taking some residual damage along the way. Thus this argument relies on the idea that the Chansey user isn't that smart or that the SD user is running Lum or some other item that fakes out the Chansey user into thinking it's Choiced.

 

Between Chansey having a lot of non-attacking moves and the usual double switch situation where you have a good idea chansey is coming, I think strong physical attackers have a lot of opportunities to come in on chansey without taking damage. Regardless, lum has its advantages too, outside of bluffing CB. My point was simply that these set up mons are capable of putting an enormous amount of pressure on your opposition simply due to chansey's ubiquity - they can either take a large chunk of chansey out on the switch or they can punish chansey's whole team for trying to stay in and be productive. And, if you're facing someone not using chansey, the same theory applies v. most of the other special wall options (pory2, umbreon, ludi)

The other way of looking at this scenario is that both players had Chanseys and realized how effective they would be in the current metagame to get them into the finals. Is it really a coincidence that two of the most successful players frequently used this pokemon while a lot of other players did not? In my eyes, later-round usage of a pokemon is more indicative that a pokemon is lower-risk and higher-reward, given that a player has used it to get to the finals of a tournament without being eliminated - even a skilled player would have trouble getting to the finals if they were using Mightyena (cough, Goldeneyes). Higher risk and lower reward pokemon like Manectric, Clefable or Blaziken don't make it to the finals of anything because they're bad - Arcanine, Metagross and Chansey did because they're good, or at least better than other possible options.

 

This provokes an interesting side-discussion, but I think late rounds (especially finals) usage can be misleading - raaidn brought a misdreavus and an altaria to his final finals match against Frags. Sometimes, especially in a small community like we have, people pull out surprise sets (including something like manectric or blaziken lel) to gain the upper hand in finals matches rather than running a standard team. But I don't wanna get too far off topic discussing misleading usage stats. My argument would simply be that chansey is risky to use on paper, regardless of what the usage stats of later rounds suggest.

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Gunthug

[DoubleJ]

I think it's very reasonable to say you can break chansey, and essentially any wall in play. You unearth set types as you play the match and learn to work around that. A lot of sd pokes have a difficult time with arcanine + slowbro + spikes which is the common def core right now.

[NikhilR]

So what happens when the hera subs/sword dances on the protect? Sweep? I know you were just using hera as an example, but it just seems like people are touting protect as this catch-all, risk free scouting move when it can lead to a loss if your opponent plays it correctly.

 

The thing is, Chansey will ALWAYS pair itself with Arcanine or Weezing or Skarmory because whether Heracross is CB locked or not, it needs something to take those hits. So the first time Chansey faces Heracross, it switches to any of the above 3 counters. Depending on the damage done, it can be understood whether the Heracross is SD/Sub or Choice Band. 

[Gunthug]

The thing is, Chansey will ALWAYS pair itself with Arcanine or Weezing or Skarmory because whether Heracross is CB locked or not, it needs something to take those hits. So the first time Chansey faces Heracross, it switches to any of the above 3 counters. Depending on the damage done, it can be understood whether the Heracross is SD/Sub or Choice Band. 

And when chansey switches to any of the 3 listed counters the first time, you risk CB hera pursuit taking a big ole chunk out of your chansey right from the get-go (50% if i remember the calcs right). Once again, I'm just highlighting the ever-present risk of using chansey - trying to navigate the strong physical threats in OU becomes risky with chansey,  often forcing a forfeit of momentum and putting pressure on the chansey user to make strong predictions.

 

^by the way, this "risk" is inherent with every special wall, of course. Special walls have trouble against physical behemoths, that's no secret. But what I'm saying is chansey is susceptible to these same problems as any other special wall in the tier, so the simple fact that it shuts down special attackers (bar some mag/jolt sets) isn't enough in my opinion to consider it banworthy.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Gunthug

[NikhilR]

And when chansey switches to any of the 3 listed counters the first time, you risk CB hera pursuit taking a big ole chunk out of your chansey right from the get-go (50% if i remember the calcs right). Once again, I'm just highlighting the ever-present risk of using chansey - trying to navigate the strong physical threats in OU becomes risky with chansey,  often forcing a forfeit of momentum and putting pressure on the chansey user to make strong predictions.

 

^by the way, this "risk" is inherent with every special wall, of course. Special walls have trouble against physical behemoths, that's no secret. But what I'm saying is chansey is susceptible to these same problems as any other special wall in the tier, so the simple fact that it shuts down special attackers (bar some mag/jolt sets) isn't enough in my opinion to consider it banworthy.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

So to be precise the range would be somewhere around 39.6 to 47% . It's actually quite big, but not big enough to destroy Chansey, if you get what I mean. With over 50% health remaining, Chansey is capable of tanking a couple of special hits or find a way to come back in by wishing itself back to health which negates the damage done (the problems with using wish chansey). This doesn't happen with Softboil Chansey and the risks associated with running this are way more than that with Wish / Protect one. 

 

For now I don't consider Chansey banworthy on the basis of how it shuts down special attackers, but mainly on how it discourages the use of Choice Banders because of protect scouting and the infinite support it offers to its teammates to prevent both (itself and teammates) from dying. Heracross / Blaziken are one of the few pokemon that can abuse the SD or sub and take advantage of a match, but other things like Metagross / Swampert / Flygon don't have moves that directly boost its attack which forces them to use CB (meta with meteor can work but not sweep though).

 

As for the part with every special wall, I don't think this necessarily happens because if you compare a wish/protect Chansey to other special walls, there's a lot of difference, however, the softboil Chansey has a lot of similarities.

 

Lets take Umbreon for instance:

 

It has 0 offensive presence which means almost any physical attacker can switch in without worrying about 30% of their health gone. Physical attackers like Heracross are more likely to get the guts boost. It doesn't have NC so it's forced to run heal bell to support itself while also carrying the burden to support its teammates through wish. It can protect scout though but nothing happens to the physical attacker.

 

Now Porygon2:

 

Has better offense but has more risks than rewards. Every P2 does carry tbolt/recover to deal with gyarados. The question is mainly what the remaining 2 moves will be. It either carries icebeam / toxic or icebeam / hp fire or hp fire / toxic. If it doesn't carry icebeam, Flygon switches in with ease and P2 is forced to switch out without scouting the banded move. Without hp fire, Magneton would switch in and abuse it and you'd need to make sure that you have a ground type which can deal with the hidden power or a calm venusaur. Without toxic, calm minders like espeon or slowbro would have a better day and things like Ludicolo can always switch in and start leech seeding it. Also, P2 can't choiceband scout.

 

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So the way I see it, there are more risks associated with running other special walls compared to Chansey and the pros of running it far outweigh the cons. I think if you run a few SD users like Ursaring / Blaziken / Heracross, you'd be in a position to easily deal with Chansey than running choice band users. This isn't the case with other special walls where you have the freedom to run CB or SD. So if you ask me, Softboil Chansey isn't broken, but wish Chansey is.

[BurntZebra]

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

So to be precise the range would be somewhere around 39.6 to 47% . It's actually quite big, but not big enough to destroy Chansey, if you get what I mean. With over 50% health remaining, Chansey is capable of tanking a couple of special hits or find a way to come back in by wishing itself back to health which negates the damage done (the problems with using wish chansey). This doesn't happen with Softboil Chansey and the risks associated with running this are way more than that with Wish / Protect one. 

 

For now I don't consider Chansey banworthy on the basis of how it shuts down special attackers, but mainly on how it discourages the use of Choice Banders because of protect scouting and the infinite support it offers to its teammates to prevent both (itself and teammates) from dying. Heracross / Blaziken are one of the few pokemon that can abuse the SD or sub and take advantage of a match, but other things like Metagross / Swampert / Flygon don't have moves that directly boost its attack which forces them to use CB (meta with meteor can work but not sweep though).

 

As for the part with every special wall, I don't think this necessarily happens because if you compare a wish/protect Chansey to other special walls, there's a lot of difference, however, the softboil Chansey has a lot of similarities.

 

Lets take Umbreon for instance:

 

It has 0 offensive presence which means almost any physical attacker can switch in without worrying about 30% of their health gone. Physical attackers like Heracross are more likely to get the guts boost. It doesn't have NC so it's forced to run heal bell to support itself while also carrying the burden to support its teammates through wish. It can protect scout though but nothing happens to the physical attacker.

 

Now Porygon2:

 

Has better offense but has more risks than rewards. Every P2 does carry tbolt/recover to deal with gyarados. The question is mainly what the remaining 2 moves will be. It either carries icebeam / toxic or icebeam / hp fire or hp fire / toxic. If it doesn't carry icebeam, Flygon switches in with ease and P2 is forced to switch out without scouting the banded move. Without hp fire, Magneton would switch in and abuse it and you'd need to make sure that you have a ground type which can deal with the hidden power or a calm venusaur. Without toxic, calm minders like espeon or slowbro would have a better day and things like Ludicolo can always switch in and start leech seeding it. Also, P2 can't choiceband scout.

 

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So the way I see it, there are more risks associated with running other special walls compared to Chansey and the pros of running it far outweigh the cons. I think if you run a few SD users like Ursaring / Blaziken / Heracross, you'd be in a position to easily deal with Chansey than running choice band users. This isn't the case with other special walls where you have the freedom to run CB or SD. So if you ask me, Softboil Chansey isn't broken, but wish Chansey is.

I think you're still overestimating protect way too much. First as others have mentioned, it is definitely not a risk free move since it opens up possibilities of dugtrio coming in for free, pokemon setting up, pokemon setting up screens, etc. Also protect scouting is incredibly obvious, as anyone who has played competitively knows. If an aerodactyl is in vs chansey and it rock slides while chansey protects, and the aerodactyl user knows the chansey user has a metagross. It would be foolish to keep aerodactyl in and therefore you get a double switch advantage, since chansey doesn't really want to risk taking a rock slide and possibly getting flinched. Then if you do this more than once in a match, the chansey user is faced with a 50/50 since they could be at an advantage if they predict that the choice bander will switch out, which leaves chansey open to even more attacks. 

 

I also don't really agree that chansey shuts down choice banders, as porygon2 does in a different method. Imagine a chansey that could ohko flygon and didn't have to worry about protect scouting what move it chose. Oh right hi porygon2 with your great special attack and movepool. Obviously porygon2 can't hit everything, but chances are, your opponent doesn't know what your other 3 moves are either. A moveset of hp fire(or ground)/thunderbolt/return/recover gives nice coverage on a lot of pokemon and doesn't really let anything come in for free. Thunderbolt could be replaced with ice beam depending on your team, but you get the point hopefully. If porygon2 can prevent a choice bander from coming in more than once, then there's no need for protect scouting, especially since you said that you won't protect first turn with chansey vs pokemon like heracross/blaziken. 

[Robofiend]

/agree with Zebra that Return/HP Fire is superior in a lot of ways to Ice Beam, but that is dependent on what your team needs also.

 

Nik really crushed that post - the threat of losing 30% of your health is actually a big deal, especially when you combine the added effects of Toxic and spikes on Choice Banders and setup pokemon alike. The point is that P2 can be played around and is susceptible to getting walled/stalled itself if the opponent hits it with Toxic. Unless for some reason you're running P2/Vap or P2/Umbreon, there aren't really a lot of options for keeping P2 healthy. The point is that even if P2 became the dominant physical wall players could quickly adapt by running a surprise Toxic (Jolt/Arc/etc.) that would prevent Porygon2 from staying in play free of charge.  

[BurntZebra]

/agree with Zebra that Return/HP Fire is superior in a lot of ways to Ice Beam, but that is dependent on what your team needs also.

Nik really crushed that post - the threat of losing 30% of your health is actually a big deal, especially when you combine the added effects of Toxic and spikes on Choice Banders and setup pokemon alike. The point is that P2 can be played around and is susceptible to getting walled/stalled itself if the opponent hits it with Toxic. Unless for some reason you're running P2/Vap or P2/Umbreon, there aren't really a lot of options for keeping P2 healthy. The point is that even if P2 became the dominant physical wall players could quickly adapt by running a surprise Toxic (Jolt/Arc/etc.) that would prevent Porygon2 from staying in play free of charge.

I mean there are other clerics besides Chansey, since most don't even run aromatherapy. There's the eevees which can all learn heal bell. Porygon can also trace natural cure to deal with status, but to be honest status isn't that crippling, although a toxic can make it a bit harder to counter some special attackers. Porygon isn't really forced to stall the same way Chansey is. Porygon can 2hko jolteon/starmie/espeon so it's just a matter if you want a defensive Pokemon that can actually beat Pokemon or just stall them out.

I'd also add you're kind of countering your own arguments about banning Chansey since you're claiming toxic stall will get even more popular, one of the things the Chansey ban was supposed to avoid.

[NikhilR]

I think you're still overestimating protect way too much. First as others have mentioned, it is definitely not a risk free move since it opens up possibilities of dugtrio coming in for free, pokemon setting up, pokemon setting up screens, etc. Also protect scouting is incredibly obvious, as anyone who has played competitively knows. If an aerodactyl is in vs chansey and it rock slides while chansey protects, and the aerodactyl user knows the chansey user has a metagross. It would be foolish to keep aerodactyl in and therefore you get a double switch advantage, since chansey doesn't really want to risk taking a rock slide and possibly getting flinched. Then if you do this more than once in a match, the chansey user is faced with a 50/50 since they could be at an advantage if they predict that the choice bander will switch out, which leaves chansey open to even more attacks. 

 

I also don't really agree that chansey shuts down choice banders, as porygon2 does in a different method. Imagine a chansey that could ohko flygon and didn't have to worry about protect scouting what move it chose. Oh right hi porygon2 with your great special attack and movepool. Obviously porygon2 can't hit everything, but chances are, your opponent doesn't know what your other 3 moves are either. A moveset of hp fire(or ground)/thunderbolt/return/recover gives nice coverage on a lot of pokemon and doesn't really let anything come in for free. Thunderbolt could be replaced with ice beam depending on your team, but you get the point hopefully. If porygon2 can prevent a choice bander from coming in more than once, then there's no need for protect scouting, especially since you said that you won't protect first turn with chansey vs pokemon like heracross/blaziken. 

 

Okay, to address your overestimation part:

 

1) Dugtrio trapping is meh because if you're running a dugtrio, Chansey will eventually be trapped so while you can predict the protect, it isn't as necessary as you're making out to be because Dugtrio will be able to find a way to switch in risk free. 

 

2) You're right about pokemon setting up screens but honestly, I haven't seen the benefits of using screens in a long time. 

 

3) About setting up, as I've mentioned, if you know a pokemon is capable of setting up through SD or Sub, you first switch out, so that you can scout out its set. Then accordingly you can play around it. 

 

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About the Aerodactyl rock slide part. Chansey CAN afford to stay in because Rock Slide is a 3hko which doesn't leave Chansey crippled even if the Chansey user mispredicts and at worst, gets flinched. Aerodactyl user can switch out and continue to maintain that advantage, assuming the Chansey user goes to Metagross and you go to something to Blaziken or Swampert. But this really doesn't have much to do with Chansey but mainly scouting+being forced to outpredict your opponent every turn because he has a Chansey. So your method of beating Chansey, is by taking out Chansey's checks/counters' counters, in this case, taking out Metagross. This shows that there is no direct way of breaking Chansey. 

 

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About figuring out P2's moveset, this really, really isn't that hard at all to figure out. I bring out gyara, you switch in p2. You use tbolt, I go to a ground type like Flygon or Swampert and then see what move you use (or if you decide to switch out). Or I could go to Venusaur and leech seed you and see what move you use. Eventually P2 will have to recover and at that point when it is forced to recover, I can freely bring in my choicebander or SD user, without any risk involved. So at that point, the decision lies entirely in your hands, whether you stay in or out, knowing the opponent uses Superpower or not. 

 

I think return would benefit p2 a lot, but then again, can P2 deny a choicebander from switching in more than once? Nope. Metagross, Flygon (if no beam), Swampert, Heracross, Blaziken (any move but return), Ursaring, Machamp can all switch in without their attacks being scouted. Now imagine this scenario where Chansey dishes out the same damage that P2 does AND scouts the move also. This is just too good.

 

Also, let me just go ahead and say that P2 being more offensive than Chansey, is true, but not by as big a margin as you're suggesting. 

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 61-73 (39.3 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Heracross: 50-50 (32.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 58-69 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Flygon: 50-50 (32.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

 

0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 41-49 (26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Metagross: 50-50 (32.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 52-63 (29.7 - 36%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Swampert: 50-50 (28.5 - 28.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

 

As you can see with the above calcs, switching in those CB'ers is slightly risky but at the same time it is very risky for p2 to stay in. However, the risk factor associated with Chansey is considerably less because of protect, while it still deals somewhat the same amount of damage. Also, Arcanine is commonly used and can get that attk drop on P2. So ultimately, p2 is forced to switch out because it cannot do enough damage vs the above pokemon then. This is just to prove the point that p2 isn't nearly as good as Chansey. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by NikhilR

[codylramey]

I see a lot of people on the pro side saying "yes x pokemon can do this to chansey but y pokemon can stop that". Is it just me or does that seem like it shouldnt be realivant. I mean yes y pokemon can stop pokemon that can take advantage of chanseys weaknesses but that has nothing to do with chansey.

Just a sidenote blazeiken can taks chansey weezing cores if its mixed.

[Vaeldras]

Been almost a month, did you guys forget about it or are you still deciding?

 

Edit: Reminder that this thing is still borderline

Edited November 3, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Robofiend]

Been almost a month, did you guys forget about it or are you still deciding?

 

Edit: Reminder that this thing is still borderline

 

No decision and recall that it's not BL if it's used on more than 5% of OU teams, which it has been for the last month.

 

This is a good chance to make some points regarding usage from the last OU tourney for which we have stats (10/13):

 

1. Chansey usage increased to 40% while Porygon2 usage dropped to 20%. This is exactly what I predicted would happen and shines a light on "who is the best special wall in the tier". Porygon clearly is not "as good" as Chansey if it's usage rate is half of Chansey's - case closed there. That doesn't mean Chansey is de facto Uber but it shuts down Zebra's altogether bad argument that other walls are just as or nearly as good as Chansey. Weezing has ascended to check Gyarados, Heracross and Aerodactyl, all of whom have become more popular. 

 

2. The supposed best Chansey checks have not materialized in usage. Ursaring is around 16%, Heracross is more popular at 30% and Machamp is no where to be seen. The Calm minders that were supposedly could take down Chansey are not used either, with Espeon at 8%. Magneton, another suggestion of "things that take down Chansey" sits at 9%. Again, this isn't reason to ban Chansey, it just says something about the viability (or maybe availability) of these pokes.

 

Remember that this is just one tournament, but it's the only one that we have new usage for since this discussion started. In the mean time it'd be nice to hear what other people think.

[Vaeldras]

No decision and recall that it's not BL if it's used on more than 5% of OU teams, which it has been for the last month.

 

This is a good chance to make some points regarding usage from the last OU tourney for which we have stats (10/13):

 

1. Chansey usage increased to 40% while Porygon2 usage dropped to 20%. This is exactly what I predicted would happen and shines a light on "who is the best special wall in the tier". Porygon clearly is not "as good" as Chansey if it's usage rate is half of Chansey's - case closed there. That doesn't mean Chansey is de facto Uber but it shuts down Zebra's altogether bad argument that other walls are just as or nearly as good as Chansey. Weezing has ascended to check Gyarados, Heracross and Aerodactyl, all of whom have become more popular. 

 

2. The supposed best Chansey checks have not materialized in usage. Ursaring is around 16%, Heracross is more popular at 30% and Machamp is no where to be seen. The Calm minders that were supposedly could take down Chansey are not used either, with Espeon at 8%. Magneton, another suggestion of "things that take down Chansey" sits at 9%. Again, this isn't reason to ban Chansey, it just says something about the viability (or maybe availability) of these pokes.

 

Remember that this is just one tournament, but it's the only one that we have new usage for since this discussion started. In the mean time it'd be nice to hear what other people think.

 

 

Noad plz update

But, yeh, i personally don't use any sp sweeper atm because chansey could be there and make it completely useless. It's usually one of those pokes that make it till the very end.

Even worse, at least you could wear snorlax down with, let's say, jolteon.

[BurntZebra]

No decision and recall that it's not BL if it's used on more than 5% of OU teams, which it has been for the last month.

 

This is a good chance to make some points regarding usage from the last OU tourney for which we have stats (10/13):

 

1. Chansey usage increased to 40% while Porygon2 usage dropped to 20%. This is exactly what I predicted would happen and shines a light on "who is the best special wall in the tier". Porygon clearly is not "as good" as Chansey if it's usage rate is half of Chansey's - case closed there. That doesn't mean Chansey is de facto Uber but it shuts down Zebra's altogether bad argument that other walls are just as or nearly as good as Chansey. Weezing has ascended to check Gyarados, Heracross and Aerodactyl, all of whom have become more popular. 

 

2. The supposed best Chansey checks have not materialized in usage. Ursaring is around 16%, Heracross is more popular at 30% and Machamp is no where to be seen. The Calm minders that were supposedly could take down Chansey are not used either, with Espeon at 8%. Magneton, another suggestion of "things that take down Chansey" sits at 9%. Again, this isn't reason to ban Chansey, it just says something about the viability (or maybe availability) of these pokes.

 

Remember that this is just one tournament, but it's the only one that we have new usage for since this discussion started. In the mean time it'd be nice to hear what other people think.

I don't really think one tournament can accurately display the meta game. Data can be easily skewed in one direction. For example, if the tournament winner won with a certain pokemon each round, that pokemon would be at 8% usage, even if no one else ran it. Obviously it would be better if we had a few more OU tournaments to take usage from, to get a more evened out usage. I don't really think weezing can do what you're claiming it can. First, it hates switching in vs stab attacks like aerodactyl rock slide/flygon dragon claw/metagross meteor mash. Second, it can't reliably beat gyarados or heracross. Gyarados ohkos with a +2 flail or sets up to +6 with sub+dd if no thunderbolt. Heracross is only 3hko'ed by flamethrower and does a huge amount of damage with +2 guts facade. Weezing also does not appreciate taking choice banded megahorns either, especially with its shaky pain split recovery. 

 

I'm actually a bit surprised at magneton and espeon usage. Magneton is one of the best wallbreakers we have at this point, easily shredding through physical walls (trapping two of the big ones) and being able to take down pretty much all of the special walls with its stab thunderbolt and metal sound. Espeon usage is probably down with metagross being on a lot of teams, but it has a pretty decent niche being able to beat chansey and weezing, or at least weakening chansey greatly and forcing the opponent to sack something to remove toxic on chansey. 

 

 

Noad plz update

But, yeh, i personally don't use any sp sweeper atm because chansey could be there and make it completely useless. It's usually one of those pokes that make it till the very end.

Even worse, at least you could wear snorlax down with, let's say, jolteon.

With that logic, no special attacker would be used ever. Porygon shuts down jolteon even more than chansey, being immune to thunderbolt and taking minimal damage from hidden power, and being able to 2hko jolteon with return. Porygon2 and ludicolo handle starmie better than chansey as they can threaten starmie offensively, something chansey cannot. This is why chansey is not the same as snorlax and blissey in terms of being a special wall. Although they are all special walls, walls need some kind of offense or else they are going to lose in a lot of match ups. I'd also argue that jolteon can beat chansey with a fake tears set anyways. 

[Vaeldras]

 

With that logic, no special attacker would be used ever. Porygon shuts down jolteon even more than chansey, being immune to thunderbolt and taking minimal damage from hidden power, and being able to 2hko jolteon with return. Porygon2 and ludicolo handle starmie better than chansey as they can threaten starmie offensively, something chansey cannot. This is why chansey is not the same as snorlax and blissey in terms of being a special wall. Although they are all special walls, walls need some kind of offense or else they are going to lose in a lot of match ups. I'd also argue that jolteon can beat chansey with a fake tears set anyways. 

 

Problem is ph walls can be played around.

Things like cband swampert can take down forretress and skarmory with around 3 hits, charizard can play around arca with sdance or slowbro with sunny beam (but then it'd be a sp sweeper).

Any ph wall can be played around, but sp sweepers have no way to break through chansey, since it has access to softboiled, wish.

And it's not like it only stops jolteon and starmie, it stops everything you may throw at it.

Ofc you could run dugtrio and make up for that, but that would mean limiting your options.

Then we got haunter.

[BurntZebra]

Problem is ph walls can be played around.

Things like cband swampert can take down forretress and skarmory with around 3 hits, charizard can play around arca with sdance or slowbro with sunny beam (but then it'd be a sp sweeper).

Any ph wall can be played around, but sp sweepers have no way to break through chansey, since it has access to softboiled, wish.

And it's not like it only stops jolteon and starmie, it stops everything you may throw at it.

Ofc you could run dugtrio and make up for that, but that would mean limiting your options.

Then we got haunter.

Not sure why you're talking about physical attackers/walls. Obviously choice banded attackers will take down physical walls slightly better, but that's because we have a much more shifted meta towards physical attackers in general. We have choice band, but no choice specs. We have swords dance and dragon dance, but no nasty plot or quiver dance. We have superpower and tons of other physical moves but no psyshock or focus blast. 

 

Special attackers will almost always be weaker than physical attackers with our current items/abilities/moves. Special attackers won't break through porygon2, gardevoir, umbreon, chansey, or even kangaskhan, if you don't try to match special power with physical power through growth/calm mind/fake tears/metal sound, then obviously special attackers will always be inferior. 

252+ SpA Magnet Magneton Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 195-231 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (OG magneton)

 

If you try to claim that starmie has a better chance at breaking through umbreon or gardevoir, then I will laugh at you, because it is still unlikely unless you get horribly lucky with psychic drops (vs porygon2/ludicolo), or a freeze (but no one runs ice beam). 

[Rigamorty]

I think vael's point is more based around the fact that having 0 special weaknesses (focus blast/aura sphere when?) chansey can wall out any special attack ever with ease, as opposed to umbreon and gardevoir who have moves like signal beam, and shadow ball (some others for gard probably) to take them down

[Vaeldras]

Not sure why you're talking about physical attackers/walls. Obviously choice banded attackers will take down physical walls slightly better, but that's because we have a much more shifted meta towards physical attackers in general. We have choice band, but no choice specs. We have swords dance and dragon dance, but no nasty plot or quiver dance. We have superpower and tons of other physical moves but no psyshock or focus blast. 

 

Special attackers will almost always be weaker than physical attackers with our current items/abilities/moves. Special attackers won't break through porygon2, gardevoir, umbreon, chansey, or even kangaskhan, if you don't try to match special power with physical power through growth/calm mind/fake tears/metal sound, then obviously special attackers will always be inferior. 

252+ SpA Magnet Magneton Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 195-231 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (OG magneton)

 

If you try to claim that starmie has a better chance at breaking through umbreon or gardevoir, then I will laugh at you, because it is still unlikely unless you get horribly lucky with psychic drops (vs porygon2/ludicolo), or a freeze (but no one runs ice beam). 

 

We have weathers though

Special kingdra, calm mind espeon and kazam, special charizard etc, it doesn't make any sense to run any of these while chansey is so relevant.

Modest starmie can be a big problem to gardevoir and porygon when they're not at full health, i can assure you that. 

 

252+ SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 51-60 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I had some problems with this thing myself

 

Edit: i would also like to remember how chansey screams "EXPLOIT ME" to certain setup sweepers, which is one more reason to run any of those rather than a sp sweeper

Edited November 6, 2015 by Vaeldras

[BurntZebra]

We have weathers though

Special kingdra, calm mind espeon and kazam, special charizard etc, it doesn't make any sense to run any of these while chansey is so relevant.

Modest starmie can be a big problem to gardevoir and porygon when they're not at full health, i can assure you that. 

 

252+ SpA Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gardevoir: 51-60 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I had some problems with this thing myself

 

Edit: i would also like to remember how chansey screams "EXPLOIT ME" to certain setup sweepers, which is one more reason to run any of those rather than a sp sweeper

Weather isn't worth running without damp rock/heat stone or whatever its called+life orb as its not really worth running a dedicated weather team without the extenders and a lot of pokemon usually can't switch in, set up weather, and then not get outstalled by something with instant recovery. 

As I've said before, espeon does beat chansey, due to synchronize+access to instant recovery. Special kingdra can be used, although it still has issues with ludicolo, venusaur, and umbreon. Charizard has issues with arcanine, calm mind slowbro, aerodactyl, vaporeon, and porygon2. 

[LuisPocho]

As I've said before, espeon does beat chansey, due to synchronize+access to instant recovery. Special kingdra can be used, although it still has issues with ludicolo, venusaur, and umbreon. Charizard has issues with arcanine, calm mind slowbro, aerodactyl, vaporeon, and porygon2. 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 82-97 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

I dont know speon, but special Kingdra cant kill chansey (even in Rain)

[Vaeldras]

. Charizard has issues with arcanine, calm mind slowbro, aerodactyl, vaporeon, and porygon2. 

 

If we're talking about special zard then vaporeon(ph variiant), porygon 2 and slowbro absolutely can't switch in.

 

252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 158-188 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Sun: 112-133 (58.3 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 134-158 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

That's how devastating sp zard used to be when gengar was around to punish chansey.

Even umbreon could be 2hko'd with blaze.

Ofc there are also some offensive pokemon well able to stop it (kingdra to begin with), but they lose to other sets: Arcanine is totally destroyed by any mixed or ph set, same for gyarados etc.

Not sure if sp kingdra worked a well as zard at the time, but why would anyone bother running the sp set with chansey around?

Ok, chansey isn't the only reason why sp sweepers are currently underpowered, but is has a great impact on that.

I won't say it's too good not to use or defensively uber because we all know it's not at this point, but let's acknowledge how sp sweepers are just dead weight if your opponent has that on his team.

[NikhilR]

I won't say it's too good not to use or defensively uber because we all know it's not at this point, but let's acknowledge how sp sweepers are just dead weight if your opponent has that on his team.

 

Pretty much this. You either need a Calm Minder or pokemon with fake tears / metal sound to beat it. 

[BurntZebra]

If we're talking about special zard then vaporeon(ph variiant), porygon 2 and slowbro absolutely can't switch in.

 

252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 158-188 (78.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Sun: 112-133 (58.3 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Charizard SolarBeam vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 134-158 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

That's how devastating sp zard used to be when gengar was around to punish chansey.

Even umbreon could be 2hko'd with blaze.

Ofc there are also some offensive pokemon well able to stop it (kingdra to begin with), but they lose to other sets: Arcanine is totally destroyed by any mixed or ph set, same for gyarados etc.

Not sure if sp kingdra worked a well as zard at the time, but why would anyone bother running the sp set with chansey around?

Ok, chansey isn't the only reason why sp sweepers are currently underpowered, but is has a great impact on that.

I won't say it's too good not to use or defensively uber because we all know it's not at this point, but let's acknowledge how sp sweepers are just dead weight if your opponent has that on his team.

Its pretty silly to assume that someone is going to give charizard a free turn to come in, then set up, then switch to porygon or umbreon. Also I believe most special charizards run timid to get the jump on flygon and base 95s. 

 

Assuming charizard sets up sun while porygon switches in, then porygon can just recover stall until sun runs out or fire blast runs out of pp, not to mention that fire blast can miss. Vaporeon can easily outstall with wish+protect. Slowbro can win if the charizard runs hidden power grass instead of solarbeam, as some don't want to be completely reliant on sun to take on pokemon like rhydon/slowbro/quagsire.

 

I don't really get how arcanine is destroyed by physical sets. Dragon dance and swords dance variants are non existent and lack power vs the whole meta. Belly drum charizard just dies to extreme speed from arcanine.

 

I don't really think special attackers are deadweight when chansey is on a team. Jolteon/espeon/magneton/charizard can all take down a chansey by themselves. If we really wanted special attackers to be viable, we would have to ban chansey and porygon2, then maybe venusaur and umbreon, depending on how the meta would work out. Special attackers just aren't that great with our current meta situation. 

[Vaeldras]

Its pretty silly to assume that someone is going to give charizard a free turn to come in, then set up, then switch to porygon or umbreon. Also I believe most special charizards run timid to get the jump on flygon and base 95s. 

 

Assuming charizard sets up sun while porygon switches in, then porygon can just recover stall until sun runs out or fire blast runs out of pp, not to mention that fire blast can miss. Vaporeon can easily outstall with wish+protect. Slowbro can win if the charizard runs hidden power grass instead of solarbeam, as some don't want to be completely reliant on sun to take on pokemon like rhydon/slowbro/quagsire.

 

I don't really get how arcanine is destroyed by physical sets. Dragon dance and swords dance variants are non existent and lack power vs the whole meta. Belly drum charizard just dies to extreme speed from arcanine.

 

I don't really think special attackers are deadweight when chansey is on a team. Jolteon/espeon/magneton/charizard can all take down a chansey by themselves. If we really wanted special attackers to be viable, we would have to ban chansey and porygon2, then maybe venusaur and umbreon, depending on how the meta would work out. Special attackers just aren't that great with our current meta situation. 

 

What would you run timid zard for? haunter? it can't touch flygon anyway unless hp ice.

Most times charizard doesn't need 2 turns, 1 is enough to become a threat.

Ph vapo can't protect stall. Calm pory could hang on until the sun is out, but it isn't the safest thing to do, especially when you're not actually stalling but slowly losing hp over time.

And why would you run hidden power grass on a sunny day set? hp grass doesn't have enough power anyway.

Mixed zard can scare away a lot of stuff and predict arcanine with swords dance, at that point it's a 2hko with quake counting intimidate, and at that point you become a huge offensive threat.

Doesn't even need to predict it, zard can take it down in 3 turns (1 for sdance and then 2 to ko it), while arcanine needs 4 turns with espeed.

Bdrum, if heavily def invested can live an espeed at 25%, risky but possible (assuming you max att, and give it enough speed for jolt at salac range).

 

My main problem with chansey is it can't just be worn down like you do with other sp walls.

A weakened gardevoir/porygon2 can be killed by a sp sweeper, but with chansey it's still unlikely to happen.

 

.

[RysPicz]

I don't really think special attackers are deadweight when chansey is on a team.

That sentence made me laugh really hard. I don't know if you are blind or you are just trying to defend stall and every fucking defensive pokemon in every single post you make.

 

Chansey's usage became disgusting high in a very short time span. Special attackers ARE a deadweight when chansey is on the team, period. Chansey limits teambuilding to a degree where you cover the tier's all special attackers with one poke, then you just take mixed walls/ physical walls to cover other threats and there, stall triumphs once again. Jolteon HAS to run fake tears to at least have a chance of defeating Chansey or force it out. Espeon will get toxiced while calm minding, Chansey doesn't care about status due to NC. Charizard can defeat Chansey only under very specific circumstances: it has petaya, blaze activated, it's modest, and it's under sun. Then yeah, it has a chance to OHKO (!) Chansey with a STAB Sun Blaze +1 Fire Blast (or guarantee the OHKO with Overheat but that's bad). Magneton has little hp, Chansey usually switches in on Sub or TBolt, Magneton has to Metal Sound afterwards to have a tiny chance of 2HKOing Chansey with TBolt while it can wish protect and seismic Magnet away.

 

252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 163-193 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Oh wait all Magnets are grass/ fire

248+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Totally worth taking my chances.

 

I am really fond of using special attackers in OU but Chansey limits me to such a degree that I just don't bother anymore. I know you love stall and OP defensive threats Zeb but take OU's healthiness and be objective at least for a moment, then say to yourself "this shit has to go".