[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[DoubleJ]

Just now, xilias said:

But isnt it unhealthy that one single pokemon can kill the whole sp.att aspect of the game and put a huge pressure on the opponent on the same time?

But it doesn't "kill" the entire special side of the game, it merely provides a very good check. We've already seen that Trick, Choice Specs, and continued pressure can handle Snorlax, even more so than these same tactics can stop Chansey (aside from Trick which cripples it). 

 

At the end of the day, there is no perfect argument to ban or keep Snorlax and it's just going to come down to the discretion of the TC. If they think it's toxic, well then it's already gone and we're just arguing for nothing. 

[pachima]

1 hour ago, xilias said:

But isnt it unhealthy that one single pokemon can kill the whole sp.att aspect of the game and put a huge pressure on the opponent on the same time?

Lol no, as double J said, arca, venu, porygon, etc have major flaws. I don´t know if you noticed, but playing with a pokemon without major flaws is really healthy. Relying on a pokemon to stop special attackers and exert pressure on opponent´s team is a sign of skill.

Using those arcas, venus and porygons, players would just have to predict other player´s move and to use a team with good synergy with them. However, with snorlax, people must use all their skill to use it to switch in against literally any special mon and you have no idea how hard it is to click body slam.

On a more serious note, those major flaws are what makes this game fun. Having chance (albeit small) to sweep with any mon or on the other way around, to be able to wall some things you desire, is much healthier than seeing the same mons over and over again sweeping and the same stalling. Snorlax literally ruins that balance forcing players to teambuild differently.

[pachima]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

But it doesn't "kill" the entire special side of the game, it merely provides a very good check. We've already seen that Trick, Choice Specs, and continued pressure can handle Snorlax, even more so than these same tactics can stop Chansey (aside from Trick which cripples it). 

 

At the end of the day, there is no perfect argument to ban or keep Snorlax and it's just going to come down to the discretion of the TC. If they think it's toxic, well then it's already gone and we're just arguing for nothing. 

Which is fun cause if you trick a banded snorlax u also end up crippled. In some cases, banded or not, snorlax can handle a choice item, while chansey is ruined at it.

The last week, way more than 50% of the battles, the player had a snorlax. Also, if chansey was considered cancerous and snorlax managed to outshadow its usage, that literally speaks for itself. Also, while its true specs exerts some pressure on it, atm specs are not as viable are banded are atm, and the increase of specs usage for snorlax is just another example of how snorlax influentiates teambuilding hard. 

At the end of the day, Snorlax is not the problem. Snorlax is a versatile(which is good) and a good check for a lot of sweepers, however, the tier itself just doesn´t possess the tools required to deal with it. My final answer is: If you keep snorlax, give us something  to balance it. (Some item, some ability, of another generation, something)

[RysPicz]

6 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Another negative is that both of these pokemon tend to be set-up bait for a number of crafty attackers, varying from Growth Venusaur, Growth Jolteon, Swords Dance Ursaring, DD Gyarados, etc etc. Snorlax can at least prevent these pokemon from immediately switching in with its powerful STAB Body Slam

How can you see that as a negative? This is actually great, promotes more offensive meta which is not oriented only around Rhydon, Dusclops and Skarmory. Except Rhydon, which can get fucked by a single bodyslam paralyze, both of the "answers" for Snorlax are defensive pokemon that put no pressure on it. Growth Venu, Jolt, SD Ursa, DD Gyara, CM Esp, CM Block Rest Slowbro and many other powerful and- as you called them- crafty offensive pokes are practically restricted from the tier, fearing the body slam paralyze (apart from Jolt but lol it's paper anyway). Argument you gave against Snorlax's ban is ironically an argument which speaks more about getting rid of it from OU.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Snorlax brought down from ubers for testing?

 

Because I feel, along with some more players, that it did not pass it's trial

Edited September 3, 2016 by RysPicz
fixed a typo

[DoubleJ]

11 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

How can you see that as a negative? This is actually great, promotes more offensive meta which is not oriented only around Rhydon, Dusclops and Skarmory. Except Rhydon, which can get fucked by a single bodyslam paralyze, both of the "answers" for Snorlax are defensive pokemon that put no pressure on it. Growth Venu, Jolt, SD Ursa, DD Gyara, CM Esp, CM Block Rest Slowbro and many other powerful and- as you called them- crafty offensive pokes are practically restricted from the tier, fearing the body slam paralyze (apart from Jolt but lol it's paper anyway). Argument you gave against Snorlax's ban is ironically an argument which speaks more about getting rid of it from OU.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Snorlax brought down from ubers for testing?

 

Because I feel, along with some more players, that it did not pass it's trial

It was tested and then approved if I'm not mistaken. As for what you said, my argument certainly doesn't hold much weight if you argue from a diversity standpoint in special attackers. Like I said, there isn't much of a good argument to remove it or keep it, it's just on the TC what they wanna do. 

[DoubleJ]

4 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Do you even think about what you write? I've completely lost all respect for you.

Well considering I don't use caps when I write tl;dr...

 

EDIT: but to piggy back on your defamation, Snorlax has counters, it just happens to have variability that can stop certain counters (Surf for Rhydon, Fire Blast for Metagross/Skarmory, Body Slam for whatever poor soul switches in). Other special walls do suck in our meta because they leave gaping holes in your team for a large variety of different offensive weapons. Snorlax isn't overpowered, it's just really fucking good in a variety of different ways. PLZ NO BAN

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by DoubleJ
To exert my dominance of course.

[Rigamorty]

Snorlax is obviously the best choice for what it does, and it's arguably overpowered. But I really fucking hate Chaney. Bring back Gengar and Tyranitar, gg ez. 

 

A man can dream. 

[Moetal]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Well considering I don't use caps when I write tl;dr...

 

EDIT: but to piggy back on your defamation, Snorlax has counters, it just happens to have variability that can stop certain counters (Surf for Rhydon, Fire Blast for Metagross/Skarmory, Body Slam for whatever poor soul switches in). Other special walls do suck in our meta because they leave gaping holes in your team for a large variety of different offensive weapons. Snorlax isn't overpowered, it's just really fucking good in a variety of different ways. PLZ NO BAN

 

Love whichever mod deleted my post. Please explain to me in private or in public on which part of my post warranted a deletion so I will never do it again in the future.

 

Back on track, the point is that Snorlax is too versatile, and that versatility becomes problematic when the amount of time and "sacrifices" needed to fully scout it out and to "counter" it is very steep.

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Moetal said:

Love whichever mod deleted my post. Please explain to me in private or in public on which part of my post warranted a deletion so I will never do it again in the future.

 

Back on track, the point is that Snorlax is too versatile, and that versatility becomes problematic when the amount of time and "sacrifices" needed to fully scout it out and to "counter" it is very steep.

Yo, mod deleted because you quoted something I didn't say and then started talking the shit. Anyhoos, that's like the fine line for Snorlax. Does it really break your team to scout it? There are a lot of really good switch-ins that really don't care about paralysis in order to get a scout, most notably Ludicolo and Slowbro. Both actually benefit from being paralyzed vs getting hit with a Toxic. The only really risky Lax here is SubLax, which means neither of those can break the sub, unless you're a savage and still run CM on Slowbro, in which case Lax becomes set-up bait. 

 

A poke with versatility always gives us PokeMMO players grief. Historically we always ban the things that can swap sets to check their counters. Gengar, Snorlax, etc. Honestly, these pokemon I appreciate the most, not because they're broken, but because they offer a true sense of creativity. I mean Surf Snorlax is pretty dope and the first player to run Bulky Gengar probably thought they were dumb as fuck. 

 

In the end though it's all just a spectrum. If PokeMMO players cannot handle a threat like Snorlax, then it should be banned.

[DoctorPBC]

LF no guard machamp and useful moves for scizor

 

 

Serious talk, this has just been a never ending cycle of bullshit bans. I dont come to these threads anymore because I still have the 'I told you so mentality' from 2 years of trying to convince senile that he is dumb but im going to give it a shot here.

 

Snorlax is strong, its presence in the meta proves that undoubtedly. And with the vast majority of its checks and counters not actually being a thing until 4th gen or further (poison heal gliscor, scizor, machamp, heatran, jellicent etc) It is a struggle to bring down no doubt. 

 

What we dont have however is a mon that is literally uncounterable, aside from the fact its best 3 checks are sitting in ubers Snorlax has plenty of counter play available to smart players who actually know how to play. From Ludicolo, Dusclops, Psych up Meta and Skarmory to less used mons like Specs Kazam (which can 3hko just about every variant while only being 2 shot), WoW gardevoir, just about any fighting type and the likes of bellyzard etc. 

 

With the new choice items and especially Life orb all the counters for lax in the world are available... just too many complainers stuck bringing their 4 walls + heracross and starmie expecting to break down another team with the exact same strategy. The biggest problem with Snorlax is that he is a comfort pick for just about everyone because everyone is too scared to deviate from 'standard' shit, get out there and run a fucking block feraligatr like I saw the other day, fkin mixed blaziken eats it alive... heck even Snorlax struggles to stand up to rain mons (and in a meta without other weather mons to ruin your shit too).

 

 

To put this bluntly, there is too many whiners in this thread because their precious standard mons havent been able to beat Snorlax for the past 2 years. Stop complaining and look for the counter play, its there... use it

 

 

Either that or bring down t-tar and dug, kthx

[Moetal]

@DoubleJ

I summarized your post as a quote because it was on a page before and I didn't want to quote the entire thing to hoard up unnecessary space. Do you want me to just use "..." instead of doing the actual quote? Will that make you/whichever trigger happy mod happier?

 

"Does it really break your team to scout it?"

Assuming it switches into your special attacker, soaks your attack like nothing - What are your options at this point?

1. Stay and attack it and hope for a 3HKO, while risking to be OHKO, heavily damaged or paralyzed by it?

2. Switch a "counter" into it, not knowing what it carries, risk getting OHKO, heavily damaged, or paralyzed for the rest of the game, meanwhile it may switches out?

3. Switch anything into it, not knowing what it will use, because you need to "protect" your counter to scout it.

Please tell me which option to take, because the risk to fight a Snorlax is absurdly high. 

 

Oh I love creativity, but when the meta doesn't have enough Pokemon, abilities, or moves to work around those creativity, it becomes a problem. "Too good at everything" is what have been repetitively used to describe Snorlax, which in my book says it should belong in Uber with all the other Pokemon that are "too good for everything". Take Snorlax to Uber, or take everything else in Uber down to OU.

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Moetal

[pachima]

4 hours ago, DoctorPBC said:

The biggest problem with Snorlax is that he is a comfort pick for just about everyone because everyone is too scared to deviate from 'standard' shit

Honestly, Im not sure if thats the problem. I like non-standard shit. My teams always uses some lure to some walls, however, this is the first time I had to use so many shit to lure snorlax. I can take down snorlaxes most of the time, I just dont like the mentaility one has to have when teambuilding, because u are not teambuilding for OU, you are teambuilding for snorlax.

As you said right, if you keep snorlax and give us something else like a uber pokemon or some ability/item, it would work fine. Till now, OU just cant handle snorlax healthily.

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, DoctorPBC said:

The biggest problem with Snorlax is that he is a comfort pick for just about everyone because everyone is too scared to deviate from 'standard' shit,

15 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

As we've seen, PokeMMO survives on the use of what I like to call "blanket" defenses. These are defensive pokemon that do their job really well, preventing a wide variety of attackers from sweeping. Snorlax is a blanket defense in that it can check every special attacker in the game. The same goes for Chansey. When we lose a blanket defense, we rely on other blanket defenses. If we ban Snorlax, our only other blanket special defense pokemon are Chansey and Umbreon.

Alright guys, let's get this discussion back on track. We are talking about the health of the OU metagame, not the psychology of teambuilding that incentivize simple minded people to run "blankets". "Snorlax is not unhealthy, it's just that everyone is bad at this game", that argument is very weak imo.

 

You guys are starting to claim that Snorlax has counters. No. Snorlax has checks. Ludicolo doesn't win 1v1 agaisnt Snorlax. As soon as Ludicolo gets paralysed, Snorlax puts too much pressure on it for Ludicolo to be able to stop it. Leech Seed can help Ludicolo in the short run, but Leech Seed are temporary unlike the paralysis that will remain there. Saying that Slowbro and Ludicolo enjoy getting paralysed is so wrong as well. You guys are assuming that this will prevent them from getting toxic. Considering we have Immunity Snorlax in the tier, some people might not even run toxic at all in their team. A pokemon getting paralysed in rarely a good thing and, despite the fact that in some unique circumstances a paralysed Ludicolo can be useful, let's not generalyse by saying it is.

 

PsychUp Metagross and Skarmory are once again just checks. Fire Blast/Flamethrower hurts them both. Nearly all Snorlax have a super effective move to punish them on the switch in and more importantly they both don't enjoy getting paralysed. I have seen many times Curselax win against PsychUp metagross because of the paralysis. It is not pretty. "Oh, but if Psych Up Metagross loses to Snorlax it is because of hax" No. If Curselax wins against Metagross PsychUp, it is because Snorlax - on top of being unhealthy - is clearly skiless uncompetitive bullshit that noobs use because Snorlax guarantees them a high win condition no matter what happens.

 

Dusclops is pretty decent agaisnt Snorlax. However, the fact that Dusclops hardly had any usage before Snorlax got brought down is a clear indication of how bad and unviable this pokemon can be. Being forced to play such a shitty defensive pokemon is ridiculous. 

 

4 hours ago, DoctorPBC said:

get out there and run a fucking block feraligatr like I saw the other day, fkin mixed blaziken eats it alive... heck even Snorlax struggles to stand up to rain mons (and in a meta without other weather mons to ruin your shit too).

• Block Fera has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Fera did not Block Snorlax. Fera did not Block an incoming pokemon following a Snorlax switch out. Completly irrelevant.
• Blaziken can OHKO Snorlax. That is not news to anyone. Heracross and Medicham can OHKO Snorlax too. Are those supposed to be counters? They can OHKO Tyranitar too, look at where Tyranitar is.
• Last but not least, WEATHER MONS!!!! Not only does weather mons have to find a way to set up the weather, they also have to risk losing their god speed when Snorlax uses Body Slam. Oh and they also don't win:

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax in Rain: 127-151 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 75-88 (50 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

15 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Other special walls such as Venusaur, Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Porygon2, and Arcanine have major flaws and weaknesses. They have to be used in tandem with one another just to stop common special threats and even then it can come down to a guessing game as to what move Starmie will use. It's an unfortunate fact, but special attackers are incredibly powerful in this game and Snorlax fits a really nice niche to slow them down. I guess in my opinion, Snorlax is just too good not to use, but does that merit a ban for being uncompetitive? I honestly don't think so. 

If all those special walls didn't have these major flaws and weaknesess, we would most likely have [OU Discussion] about every single one of them. Right now, Snorlax is a problem in OU. The fact that all the pro Snorlax people have been unable to provide realistic and viable ways to counter Snorlax (kek at lum berry Rhydon and all the Dusclops sudden love) only shows how catastrophic the situation is. It is entirely possible that a Laxless meta will be more unhealthy than the Lax meta because of all the special offense pressure. However, this is only speculation and, only with a test, we will know for sure.

 

I think you got mixed up at the end there. In your opinion, Snorlax being too good not to use is not a valid reason to ban Snorlax for being unhealthy, right? Snorlax being uncompetitive is a seperate issue that has little to do with Snorlax being too good not to use. Imo, if Snorlax is too skilless af for nubs not to use, Snorlax should be banned for being uncompetitive ^^

 

 

 

[DoubleJ]

5 hours ago, gbwead said:

 

If all those special walls didn't have these major flaws and weaknesess, we would most likely have [OU Discussion] about every single one of them. Right now, Snorlax is a problem in OU. The fact that all the pro Snorlax people have been unable to provide realistic and viable ways to counter Snorlax (kek at lum berry Rhydon and all the Dusclops sudden love) only shows how catastrophic the situation is. It is entirely possible that a Laxless meta will be more unhealthy than the Lax meta because of all the special offense pressure. However, this is only speculation and, only with a test, we will know for sure.

 

I think you got mixed up at the end there. In your opinion, Snorlax being too good not to use is not a valid reason to ban Snorlax for being unhealthy, right? Snorlax being uncompetitive is a seperate issue that has little to do with Snorlax being too good not to use. Imo, if Snorlax is too skilless af for nubs not to use, Snorlax should be banned for being uncompetitive ^^

 

Our argument is just running in circles now and it's getting pointless. You keep saying Snorlax lacks any counters and then proceed how it runs every move under the sun to beat them. You keep saying it can't be stopped by Ludicolo and Slowbro, which I never said it did. We have these things called pivots which help tell us what type of set certain pokemon are in order to play safely. Ludicolo and Slowbro are both excellent pivots against Snorlax, along with bulky Starmie and Arcanine. When are we going to start running a cleric in OU? 

 

Snorlax sets have counters, you know this. Snorlax itself has several checks. I'm not going to keep letting you make an argument out of simple definitions. We both know what beats Snorlax and we both know how Snorlax can stop them.  

 

 

Spoiler

 

• Skarmory - Whirlwind + Counter
  • Snorlax uses Fire Blast
• Rhydon - Any set
  • Snorlax uses Surf
• Dusclops (which has been used in this meta, quit acting like it's nonviable) - Haze + Pressure + WoW
  • Snorlax uses CB Crunch
• Gyarados - Roar + Waterfall
  • Snorlax uses Thunderpunch? (lol)
• Swampert - Roar + Superpower/EQ
  • Snorlax uses HP Grass?
• Machamp - Low Kick/Superpower
  • Snorlax uses Body Slam and prays for para (cleric when?)
• Haunter - Sub + Disable 
  • Snorlax uses Fire Punch + Pursuit 
• Metagross - Psych Up or CB Meteor Mash
  • Snorlax uses Fire Blast or EQ
• Heracross - SleepTalk + Low Kick
  • Snorlax uses uhhhh RIP?

 

 

Also I view something that is "too good not to use" as being questionably uncompetitive or unhealthy. If you have something that is so good that it beats the rest of the meta, then that is the definition of uncompetitive. If you have something that limits teambuilding because it's so good at what it does and it's seen on every team, well then that is the definition of unhealthy.

 

Regardless, I think I've said all that I can. You're just starting to nitpick on definitions now so I'm gonna rest my case and see what happens.  

[gbwead]

25 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Snorlax sets have counters, you know this. Snorlax itself has several checks.

We agree ^^

[Moetal]

40 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

When are we going to start running a cleric in OU? 

 

Snorlax sets have counters, you know this. Snorlax itself has several checks. I'm not going to keep letting you make an argument out of simple definitions. We both know what beats Snorlax and we both know how Snorlax can stop them.  

 

Also I view something that is "too good not to use" as being questionably uncompetitive or unhealthy. If you have something that is so good that it beats the rest of the meta, then that is the definition of uncompetitive. If you have something that limits teambuilding because it's so good at what it does and it's seen on every team, well then that is the definition of unhealthy.

1. I personally run a cleric in OU, and I assure you a lot of people do. However, more often than not, the presence of Snorlax makes it impossible if not hard for the Cleric to switch in or do its job properly. Surely this wouldn't be as much of a problem if Snorlax didn't have Immunity, the most reliable way for Clerics to deal consistent damage. I wonder why most Cleric in the game runs THUNDER WAVE now a day instead of TOXIC --- OH WAIT, IT'S BECAUSE OF SNORLAX.

 

2. Snorlax has several checks and zero counters. It checks or cripple if not counters its own counters. Your example means nothing. Snorlax does not have to commit to fight whatever switches in. The Snorlax players have complete control.

 

3. Wait, so are you siding pro or against ban of Snorlax? You view Snorlax as "too good not to use", which is "questionably uncompetitive or unhealthy". You yourself see it as uncompetitive or unhealthy, so why are you against the ban of Snorlax? Please DoubleJ, you're drunk. Please go.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Moetal

[gbwead]

Just now, Moetal said:

Snorlax as "too good not to use", which is "questionably uncompetitive or unhealthy"

I have talked to a lot of people about this and pretty much everybody agrees that Snorlax is to some degree uncompetitive or unhealthy. I guess the point of this discussion thread is to determine whether or not this degree of uncompetitiveness and unhealthiness is acceptable for our beloved OU meta. When JJ says "questionably", I believe he is simply stating that this degree of uncompetitiveness and unhealthiness is acceptable.

[Spaintakula]

3 hours ago, Moetal said:

 I wonder why most Cleric in the game runs THUNDER WAVE now a day instead of TOXIC --- OH WAIT, IT'S BECAUSE OF SNORLAX.

Sorry, but that's not really true. Even before lax, choosing between twave and toxic was just teambuilding, and I might not know about now, which doesn't even matter, but I know before, I've seen a fair share of both twave and toxic.

 

also

• Last but not least, WEATHER MONS!!!! Not only does weather mons have to find a way to set up the weather, they also have to risk losing their god speed when Snorlax uses Body Slam. Oh and they also don't win:

^WELL, with the calc you gave, I'm guessing if you see a special kingdra, you switch your lax in. They dance on the free turn then proceed to 2ko you? Also, your calc includes a 252hp/atk, is that really the most used set? 

[gbwead]

Just now, Spaintakula said:

WELL, with the calc you gave, I'm guessing if you see a special kingdra, you switch your lax in. They dance on the free turn then proceed to 2ko you? Also, your calc includes a 252hp/atk, is that really the most used set? 

I was talking about weather mons? Does Snorlax struggle against a weather mon like Kingdra? No. Does Snorlax struggle against fake weather mons like DD Kingdra? Yes. Is this irrelevant? Absolutetly, since DD Kingdra is most likely not going to carry Rain Dance and is therefore not a weather mon. 

 

There are so many viable sets and ev spread for Snorlax. I have no clue what the most used set on Snorlax is considering the versatily of this monster. That 10 secs calcs only shows that an Adamant Snorlax with bulk investment doesn't struggle at all against weather mons.

 

 

[Risadex]

CM suicune when ????

 

lax is annoying, mainly due his main stab be a parahax, but i need agree its  necessary, those special atkers would be so OP, CM espeon, kazan, growth venu,etc (as said by DoubleJ)

 

the lack of ghost also contribute for that.. remember in 3rd gen pursuit was SPECIAL and now that is the main change in Pokemmo meta.

 

 

#metareset #releasegengar #legendaries #kek

[SpartacusGD]

snorlax is flexible yes, but can it take all 8 moves? like a surf snorlax can beat rhydon but wont beat cm bro or a curselax 50/50 can beat cm bro 1v1 not even for sure it depends on paralysis but curselax wont beat rhydon

 

now those are just comparison between curselax and surflax and for the record those 2 different builds beats 2 different sets while both lose to a cb metagross. there are many counters and gb your reasoning is actually the irrelevant one saying blazi, hera, medi beat ttar but ttar is uber. iirc ttar gets 1 dd and those pokes lose to it 1v1 but 1v1 curselax with 1 curse against those, i doubt its over. there is a difference and you know it. i think most of you can find a way to beat snorlax. its not actually like "this poke is strong it cant be dealt with" it is more like "this poke is strong i dont wanna deal with it" so majority of players are try a get rid of it

[Fugu]

I can't believe this thread even exists.. Are you guys seriously debating whether snorlax is overpowered or not?

 

1) Saying that snorlax has some checks / counters is pointless. 

 

Let's begin this by saying that -- EVERYTHING-- can be countered. MewTwo can be countered, this doesn't make it any less overpowered. How many viable counters exist though? That's the issue. How hard is it to counter snorlax? "Somewhat" hard. How many options do you have to do it? Not that many (compared to other mons). Are you 100% forced to run these counters when you do competitive play? Pretty much, yes.

 

--- Based on the "Strengths Vs. Weaknesses" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

2) Movepool.

 

Some pokemons would be freaking great if it wasn't for their limited movepool (Muk for example). What about snorlax? I think it was in the OT that it was clearly established that Snorlax has a ridiculous movepool. I don't think anyone has argued that it wasn't the case either.

 

--- Based on the "Movepool" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

3) Stats and Legendary pokemons.

 

Pokemons come with base stats. Some pokemons have much higher stats than others, and some pokemons were specially designed to be end game toys for single players who completed the game. Many of these end game toys are legendary pokemons, which are thankfully either banned or not available here, and a couple of other ridiculous mons that should probably be banned as well. What about snorlax though? Whether you like it or not, snorlax is pretty much the neutral legendary pokemon of gen 1, except it does not have the game lore to back it up. You could catch two snorlax in the whole game, it served as a mini-boss (and had mini-boss stats) and that was it. Natures was not a thing then, nor were perfect IV / EVed mons, and that pokemon was still freaking strong then.

 

Let's analyze these stats now though:

 

* That pokemon has 540 total base stats.

 

* Only 95 of those (30 speed and 65 special attack) is "mostly" non factor (non factor stats would be special attack on a pokemon that only uses / has access to physical moves for example, or HP / Sp def / defense on shedinja, etc.)

 

* This leaves 445 effective stats. <-- Some pokemons don't even have 445 total stats..

 

Stat wise, Snorlax's only real downside is a "low" defense stat.. which gets buffed by curse (speed could be as well, but due to curse, it becomes a non-factor stat)

 

--- Based on the "Stats" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Yes.

 

 

4) Ability.

 

Some pokemons will have great stats, great movesets and few counters, but they will have horrible abilities to compensiate (Slaking comes to mind as the prominent example of such phenomenon). What about snorlax though? Snorlax has access to two abilities; it can either be immune to poison (thus you cannot use toxic on snorlax..), or it can gain resist to two of the best offensive types in the game (fire and ice). When battling snorlax, you thus have to assume two things if you don't want to waste your turn:

 

1 ) I won't use toxic on it unless I want to gamble and hope it has Thick Fat (resulting in free curse set up or massive stab body slam damage to the face)

2 ) I won't use fire and ice moves on it unless I really have to.. or if want to know if it has Immunity (resulting in one turn wasted on using such move)

 

These are two great abilities, by the way, especially if you have such a strong defensive pokemon using them. Also, due to the nature of these two abilities and how a fight with snorlax goes, these abilities will act as if they were both present on the pokemon at the same time. Nobody is going to try to poison snorlax because they don't want to give this dude a free set up **, and they won't want to attack him with fire and ice moves either unless they don't have a choice.

 

--- Based on the "Ability" scale, is snorlax too powerful? Not on that scale alone, no, but these abilities complement all other snorlax strengths pretty well, thus adding to the problem rather than take away some of its shine.

 

** I know snorlax has rest and that it counters Toxic, but that is still a factor.

------------------------------------

Summary:

All pokemons can be countered but the effort needed to counter snorlax is much greater than the ease with which snorlax users can be rape the competition.

Snorlax has a great movepool.

Snorlax has uber stats.

Snorlax does not have abilities that make him weaker (like a pokemon like slaking has for example)-- instead having access to two strong abilities that effectively work even when the pokemon does not have the ability (not using poison in case it has Immunity, and avoiding fire and ice moves in case it has Thick Fat).

 

Conclusion: Snorlax is overpowered and more than deserve its spot in the uber tier list.

 

--------------------------------------

 

Side thoughts on the subject of Body Slam and on the paralysis status effect:

 

Body Slam in itself is insanely underrated as a move. It has damage that's way too high for the % of paralysis it inflicts. Paralysis in itself is pretty much, imo, the strongest status effect in the game, so having a move with this much power and this much RNG to inflict it is dumb to begin with.

 

HOWEVER!!!

 

If you are to do a special ban (banning body slam on snorlax), I think you guys are not looking at the right move here. It is either Rest or Curse that push snorlax over the top. I highly consider that -SNORLAX- itself is the problem, and that -SNORLAX- itslef should be in the uber, but if you are to only make a special ban on a move, you have to target the right move here -- and body slam just isn't it. The ability to cure itself of status effect and to heal up after a couple of def / atk increase is a problem... the ability to increase def and atk on a pokemon whose only downside is def and one of its strengths is attack is another.

 

If you were to ban only Bodyslamlax, then they'll just use Return or Double Edge instead, dealing even more stab damage.. at the expense of no RNG reliance. Massive def tanks will be happy about that, but just about anything will still get screwed anyway, thus not changing the outcome.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fugu

[pachima]

2 hours ago, SpartacusGD said:

snorlax is flexible yes, but can it take all 8 moves? like a surf snorlax can beat rhydon but wont beat cm bro or a curselax 50/50 can beat cm bro 1v1 not even for sure it depends on paralysis but curselax wont beat rhydon

 

now those are just comparison between curselax and surflax and for the record those 2 different builds beats 2 different sets while both lose to a cb metagross. there are many counters and gb your reasoning is actually the irrelevant one saying blazi, hera, medi beat ttar but ttar is uber. iirc ttar gets 1 dd and those pokes lose to it 1v1 but 1v1 curselax with 1 curse against those, i doubt its over. there is a difference and you know it. i think most of you can find a way to beat snorlax. its not actually like "this poke is strong it cant be dealt with" it is more like "this poke is strong i dont wanna deal with it" so majority of players are try a get rid of it

So tell me, why is blissey Uber, doesnt blazi, hera, medi ohko it as well?

The point of snorlax being in game is that pretty much kills the special oriented point of the game. Using a special mon knowing with 100% certainity that the opponent will wall it with snorlax just to get you in a position where you are pretty much screwed. Either by bslam hax or a non-standard move, its pretty much stupid.

Just made a team with lures to snorlax just to beat it easily. Is that healthy? No. 

Just for fun, I decided to build a somewhat specially oriented team. Result, Snorlax came all day to take care of them and to pressure my whole team with that vairety of moves.

Snorlax has not 8 moves. True, but before you know the complete moveset of it, you are probably in a big disadvantage already.

Blissey was kinda the same, While it kills the special side of the game, it also possess some offensive power, unlike chansey. Thats why blissey is ubers, and chansey isnt.

Snorlax is pretty much a physical blissey, not that special tanky thats true, but still tanky enough to demotivate anyone thinking in adding a special sweeper in its team.

Edited September 4, 2016 by pachima

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, SpartacusGD said:

snorlax is flexible yes, but can it take all 8 moves? like a surf snorlax can beat rhydon but wont beat cm bro or a curselax 50/50 can beat cm bro 1v1 not even for sure it depends on paralysis but curselax wont beat rhydon

 

now those are just comparison between curselax and surflax and for the record those 2 different builds beats 2 different sets while both lose to a cb metagross. there are many counters and gb your reasoning is actually the irrelevant one saying blazi, hera, medi beat ttar but ttar is uber. iirc ttar gets 1 dd and those pokes lose to it 1v1 but 1v1 curselax with 1 curse against those, i doubt its over. there is a difference and you know it. i think most of you can find a way to beat snorlax. its not actually like "this poke is strong it cant be dealt with" it is more like "this poke is strong i dont wanna deal with it" so majority of players are try a get rid of it

Saying Snorlax has many counters is such a joke. Snorlax has so many different viable sets and, once scouted by a pivot, there is 1-2 viable counters per set.

Snorlax's sets have counters, few counters per set. Snorlax itself doesn't have counters, just shake pivots that can scout its set.

 

Let's take a look at the counters that have been proposed:

 

Skarmory Whirlwind + Counter

First of all, Skarmory doesn't have a clean switch on Snorlax because of Fire Blast. In order for it to become a clean switch, a pivot needs theorically to be sent against Snorlax and that involves a lot of momentum giving the risk of crits and parahax. Once Snorlax is scouted, once a lot of momentum have been potentially lost, then Skarmory can come in play and do its thing. If Skarmory comes in against a CB Snorlax, that means Snorlax has done tremendus damage to the pivot and its wallbreaking job is somewhat pretty much done. If Skarmory comes in against a Curselax, what can it do beside force à 50/50 situation? Snorlax does Fire Punch, Skarmory does Whirlwind. Ouch. Skarmory does counter, Snorlax does Curse. Not good. If Snorlax is the last pokemon standing, Whirlwind also becomes useless. Skarmory's potential paralysis also needs to be taken into consideration here.

 

Choosing to play Skarmory against a Snorlax doesn't increase your win condition by much.

 

Rhydon

Same thing than Skarmory, pivot needed, potential momentum loss, decreased win condition. Once this is done, Rhydon can counter Snorlax at the risk of getting paralysed. What happens if Rhydon becomes paralysed? Well, it becomes crap. A wallbreaker with no speed and the chance of losing a turn from time to time is hardly going to wallbreak anything. So if Rhydon is used only to counter Snorlax and by doing so Rhydon has a significant chance to become useless against the rest of the tier, Rhydon is therefore bad. This also shows how centralising Snorlax is.

 

Dusclops

My favorite by far. Unlike Skarmory and Rhydon, Dusclops only fears CB Crunch from Snorlax which makes Snorlax way easier to scout. However, what is Dusclops going to do in OU with its anti Snorlax set? If Dusclops plays WoW + Haze + Pain Split, that leaves him with only one move to deal with the rest of OU? How does a defensive Dusclops going to handle the special attacks of something like Starmie? RIP spin blocking I guess. How does a defensive Dusclops survives an Heracross CB Pursuit that kills him in 4 hits considering Seismic Toss is also a 4HKO on Heracross? What about Blaziken, Ursaring, Houndoom and all the other threaths on which Dusclops is perfect bait? RIP, RIP and more RIP.

 

Let's also not forget that Dusclops is slower than Snorlax, so a low life Dusclops is completly screwed.

 

Gyarados Roar + Waterfall

The perfect pivot and yet all the momentum loss. Using Gyarados to scout Snorlax set might seem like a good idea, but really when you think about it the paralysis risk is devastating. Considering all OU Heal Bellers are heavily countered and invalidated by Snorlax, a paralysis on Gyarados should be seen as a permanent problem. A paralysed Gyarados can hardly put pressure on anything. It becomes a good sacrifice pokemon that can intimidate before dying. Furthermore, just like Skarmory, if Snorlax is the last pokemon standing, Roar would not work against Curselax.

 

Machamp/Swampert

I hope these are not supposed to counter Snorlax because they are surely nothing more than shaky pivots that hate getting paralysed. They can come on Snorlax maybe once or twice maximum and only if they don't get paralysed. If they do, they just become bad wallbreakers.

 

Haunter Sub + Disable

That is actually a funny one, because it simply doesn't even work. Haunter can hardly pivot on Snorlax to check its set, so he has to leave that job to something else. The only Snorlax that doesn't carry 2 moves that can hit Haunter is Curselax. All the others invalidate that set. The problem with Haunter Disable against Curselax is that it doesn't have enough PP to stall it out. Snorlax will always win a 1v1 and can even use this opportunity to set up while haunters wastes its pps.

 

Metagross

Metagross is actually a strong answer to Snorlax. However, just like Skarmory or Rhydon, even after losing a lot of momentum by scouting Lax, Metagross still has a decent losing condition because of the potential paralysis.

 

 

@SpartacusGD

Heracross has no incentive to switch on Tyranitar or Snorlax unless it is given a free switch in. These fighting types are not counters imo. Let's agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spaintakula]

 

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

* This leaves 445 effective stats. <-- Some pokemons don't even have 445 total stats..

 

So dense. Chansey also has 445 effective stats if you look at it that way.

Every starter has 530~ effective stats, seeing how most can run a mixed set (zard/blaz/pert/scept/venu/whatever)

Let's ban the starters too. And everything else with effective stats above 445 because that's the standard it seems. I didn't even bother reading the rest of it, just thought a nice remark like this should do.

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

If you are to do a special ban (banning body slam on snorlax), I think you guys are not looking at the right move here. It is either Rest or Curse that push snorlax over the top. I highly consider that -SNORLAX- itself is the problem, and that -SNORLAX- itslef should be in the uber, but if you are to only make a special ban on a move, you have to target the right move here -- and body slam just isn't it. The ability to cure itself of status effect and to heal up after a couple of def / atk increase is a problem... the ability to increase def and atk on a pokemon whose only downside is def and one of its strengths is attack is another

Sorry, I know I said I didn't read, but I actually bothered to read more and it's funny.

Yes, rest is what pushes snorlax over the top more than body slam. Next on the ban list anything that learns rest. 

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

3) Stats and Legendary pokemons.

 

Pokemons come with base stats. Some pokemons have much higher stats than others, and some pokemons were specially designed to be end game toys for single players who completed the game. Many of these end game toys are legendary pokemons, which are thankfully either banned or not available here, and a couple of other ridiculous mons that should probably be banned as well. What about snorlax though? Whether you like it or not, snorlax is pretty much the neutral legendary pokemon of gen 1, except it does not have the game lore to back it up. You could catch two snorlax in the whole game, it served as a mini-boss (and had mini-boss stats) and that was it. Natures was not a thing then, nor were perfect IV / EVed mons, and that pokemon was still freaking strong then.

^Tf are you on about here? This isn't gen 1 and holy shit are you wrong buddy. Snorlax's total stats number in gen1 was 430. Look up some other pokemon from there and you'll see how most of them are currently in NU or UU, so I really don't see how you're making any sense with this?!? Totally unrelated and sad attempt at making a point.

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

 

Summary:

All pokemons can be countered but the effort needed to counter snorlax is much greater than the ease with which snorlax users can be rape the competition. Complex stall is a pain in the ass and requires huge effort, what do you have to say about that?

Snorlax has a great movepool. 4mss

Snorlax has uber stats. Debatable, but from what I see your understanding of what uber stats is, wrong.

Snorlax does not have abilities that make him weaker (like a pokemon like slaking has for example) < Need more examples of that, because OU has so many pokemon like slaking who have shit abilities, so this isn't really a deciding factor either.-- instead having access to two strong abilities that effectively work even when the pokemon does not have the ability (not using poison in case it has Immunity, and avoiding fire and ice moves in case it has Thick Fat).