[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[LifeStyle]

1 minute ago, Hotarubi said:

Request that it isn't closed on grounds that I would still like to see discussion regarding if we will actually end up keeping snorlax in the tier or not.

Simple and modest request.

Since for now was the closing statement in keeping it.

 

And would you mind explaining why you want to continue this discussion? Because "Lets keep this discussion cuz I want to" is not a valid reason.

Snorlax is still OU urr durr, I've seen plenty of viable defensive cores handling Snorlax and some of those even enjoyed the Body Slam spam that comes with facing one.

Or like, Haze Dusclops gg

[Hotarubi]

5 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

And would you mind explaining why you want to continue this discussion? Because "Lets keep this discussion cuz I want to" is not a valid reason.

Snorlax is still OU urr durr, I've seen plenty of viable defensive cores handling Snorlax and some of those even enjoyed the Body Slam spam that comes with facing one.

Or like, Haze Dusclops gg

I believe there is still more to be had in this discussion that would be why.

I think voices of new individuals may be heard or possibly that new points in some amazing way could be made possibly.

I'm not satisfied and no I don't think that this decision was made on fair grounds.

 

[LifeStyle]

10 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

I believe there is still more to be had in this discussion that would be why.

I think voices of new individuals may be heard or possibly that new points in some amazing way could be made possibly.

I'm not satisfied and no I don't think that this decision was made on fair grounds.

 

25 pages of every point that could possibly be made and you still think we need more?

Did you actually read this thread or did you just ignored every comment made by others while spamming "Snorlax is OP cuz it was Uber pls ban"?

I actually supported a Snorlax ban when this thread was made but after seeing a bunch of arguments against it, I now find that it's actually a nice fit in our meta.

Honestly if you still haven't adapted to dealing with Snorlax you're either not trying hard enough or you're just plain bad and want an easy way out of this.

Edited October 5, 2016 by LifeStyle

[Hotarubi]

Just now, LifeStyle said:

25 pages of every point that could possibly be made and you still think we need more?

Did you actually read this thread or did you just ignored every comment made by others while spamming "Snorlax is OP cuz it was Uber pls ban"?

I actually supported a Snorlax ban when this thread was made but after seeing a bunch of arguments against it, I now find that it's actually a nice fit in our meta.

Honestly if you still haven't addapted to dealing with Snorlax you're either not trying hard enough or you're just plain bad and want an easy way out of this.

Who said I haven't adapted to snorlax?

Anyways I just think its not suited to the OU tier.

[LifeStyle]

Just now, Hotarubi said:

Who said I haven't adapted to snorlax?

Anyways I just think its not suited to the OU tier.

Basically those 25 pages of you complaining about it.

And you still keep giving 0 reasons to why you think Snorlax doesn't belong in OU, again "cuz it was Uber" is not a valid one.

[Hotarubi]

Just now, LifeStyle said:

Basically those 25 pages of you complaining about it.

And you still keep giving 0 reasons to why you think Snorlax doesn't belong in OU, again "cuz it was Uber" is not a valid one.

The reasons stated, previously by me and others is that its over centralizing.

The 160 base hp and capacity to be both a spdef wall and a physical sweeper.

I could go on but I don't see any point to talking to you.

If our previous conflict hadn't happened I might be more inclined to socialize with you or converse.

[LifeStyle]

7 minutes ago, Hotarubi said:

The reasons stated, previously by me and others is that its over centralizing.

The 160 base hp and capacity to be both a spdef wall and a physical sweeper.

I could go on but I don't see any point to talking to you.

If our previous conflict hadn't happened I might be more inclined to socialize with you or converse.

If you don't run Snorlax counters/checks, then you obviously lose to Snorlax, same way as you get swept by a CM Kazam if you don't run counters/checks for it, same way you get swept by a Belly Zard if you don't run counters/checks for it, etc etc

Now, does Snorlax have counters/checks in OU? Besides Weezing, Rhydon, Skarmory, Ludicolo, Machamp, Hariyama, Milotic, Dusclops, Metagross, Slowbro, Arcanine and a bunch of shit that isn't even OU like Steelix, Lapras, Aggron, Cradily, Armaldo. Nah nothing counters Snorlax you're right, pls ban it such OP much wow

[Spaintakula]

2 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

The reasons stated, previously by me and others is that its over centralizing.

The 160 base hp and capacity to be both a spdef wall and a physical sweeper.

I could go on but I don't see any point to talking to you.

If our previous conflict hadn't happened I might be more inclined to socialize with you or converse.

Do you think snorlax is the only pokemon that can do more than one job? if so, then you really don't know anything

Also, it's pretty pretensious to deny someone of their point, that seems to be very valid, just because you had a bad encounter with him in the past.

3 hours ago, Hotarubi said:

I think voices of new individuals may be heard or possibly that new points in some amazing way could be made possibly.

The discussion won't open every time someone new might have something to say about the matter at hand. There's everything wrong with it, from just being plain stupid, to showing how the TC is undecisive if such a thing were to happen.

[pachima]

Ok, Keep snorlax, now, gib me salamence back.

[DoubleJ]

Again close this thread. A decision was made. Time to live with it. 

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Again close this thread. A decision was made. Time to live with it. 

If someone gives me a couple of valid reasons why was kanga banned and snorlax wasnt, and how is salamence uberwise and snorlax isnt. If someone explain me why snorlax wasnt banned and those pokemons were, I will happily forget this matter and pass on.

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

If someone gives me a couple of valid reasons why was kanga banned and snorlax wasnt, and how is salamence uberwise and snorlax isnt. If someone explain me why snorlax wasnt banned and those pokemons were, I will happily forget this matter and pass on.

Kanga is test banned to assess whether it is broken or not. It could literally be brought back tomorrow. 

 

You know how snorlax can sweep an unprepared team with curse? Mence can sweep almost every team with DD or even just a CB.

 

Snorlax is fat.

[gbwead]

Snorlax wasn't banned, that doesn't mean that it is not a problem. I think this thread should remain open because, as long as Snorlax is a problem, people should have a place where they can share their analysis of how the OU meta is developing to deal with Lax.

[pachima]

26 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Kanga is test banned to assess whether it is broken or not. It could literally be brought back tomorrow. 

 

You know how snorlax can sweep an unprepared team with curse? Mence can sweep almost every team with DD or even just a CB.

 

Snorlax is fat.

If the guy doesnt use slowbro, if porygon2 doesnt shake is nose towards mence, If milotic doesn´t exist, If garde doesnt says Hi and if scarf is unusable, yes, Mence can sweep every team with dd or a CB. The difference between that and lax is that lax has more opportunites to switch-in. 

Note I´m not saying mence should be OU. No, Im just stating snorlax is as banworthy as mence is. Both have few checks. Both can sweep. Both have huge versatility. What I just seem to notice is that pokemmo´s mentality consists in removing every offensive pokemon able to sweep after a set up. (Even zangoose is wanted by some players to be banned)

Edit:

Lastly, even if its not banned. I support @gbwead by not closing this thread. 

People have been saying tier has been more versatile now. Honestly, I see more versatility on snorlax sets, aside from that, versatility consists in the same mons over and over again in OU. Not fun anymore.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by pachima

[DoubleJ]

If the thread remains open, then I suggest finding a good argument outside of just whining about the decision. 

 

53 minutes ago, pachima said:

If the guy doesnt use slowbro, if porygon2 doesnt shake is nose towards mence, If milotic doesn´t exist, If garde doesnt says Hi and if scarf is unusable, yes, Mence can sweep every team with dd or a CB. The difference between that and lax is that lax has more opportunites to switch-in. 

Note I´m not saying mence should be OU. No, Im just stating snorlax is as banworthy as mence is. Both have few checks. Both can sweep. Both have huge versatility. What I just seem to notice is that pokemmo´s mentality consists in removing every offensive pokemon able to sweep after a set up. (Even zangoose is wanted by some players to be banned)

 

Maybe we should consider bringing mence back down, but the comparison between snorlax and salamence just does not hold. Mence IS an offensive uber. Snorlax is borderline unhealthy. As gunt argued we should compare Snorlax to Blissey if we hope to establish a solid argument to get it banned. 

 

Although, with lax back why is bliss still banned?

[LifeStyle]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Although, with lax back why is bliss still banned?

"The TC considers Blissey as unhealthy for the OU meta. Unlike Chansey, probably the most centralising pokemon of OU not long ago, Blissey is no set up bait thanks to its decent Special Attack stat. Flamethrower, Ice beam, Thunderbolt, Hyper Voice and Psychic can put significant pressure on physical wall-breakers to prevent them from switching in. Blissey is for this reason pretty much untouchable until its moveset is scouted. The only pokemon that can safely come on Blissey and pressure it out is Snorlax. However, Snorlax doesn't punish Blissey that well since Blissey can still Cleric and Wish Support Snorlax's counters.

 

The combination of Blissey and Chansey in the same meta is rediculous. One can offer wish support while the other can offer cleric support. The presence of Blissey in OU prevents the regular Chansey's counters to be effective. Rhydon, Venusaur and Trapinch all work for Chansey, but don't work against Blissey. Natural Cure also allows them to switch endlessly from one to the other with little to no risk. Status and Leech Seed become completly pointless when they are both around. 

 

Overall, Blissey seems to bring back OU to a pretty stale and undesirable meta. The combination of Blissey and Chansey is also bad for standard tournaments because some duels will easily last over an hour and delay entire tournaments. In ranked matchmaking, this combination limits players to one duel per ranked matchmaking period."

[KaynineXL]

8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Although, with lax back why is bliss still banned?

Actually, why was Bliss never brought down with Lax?

 

Edit: So Gengar/bliss/lax were brought down. Gengar + bliss were removed. Since lax is here, is bliss all that unhealthy? I guess it is still impossible to break for sp attackers, but lax gets free switches. Meh

Edited October 5, 2016 by KaynineXL

[pachima]

8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

If the thread remains open, then I suggest finding a good argument outside of just whining about the decision. 

 

Maybe we should consider bringing mence back down, but the comparison between snorlax and salamence just does not hold. Mence IS an offensive uber. Snorlax is borderline unhealthy. As gunt argued we should compare Snorlax to Blissey if we hope to establish a solid argument to get it banned. 

 

Although, with lax back why is bliss still banned?

First, you are right, sala and snorlax are completely different mons. It´s just how about the tier handles those two that makes the comparison between them this similar. 

Second, keeping snorlax on OU is a double edged sword. With this I mean that while snorlax itself is not the monster I probably let you think (It´s not). The problem, as stated above, is how the tier handles it. If something else is implemented on the game to balance this offensive/defensive tier snorlax is pressuring towards, or even the demote of a uber pokemon, I don´t mind at all snorlax being OU. 

All in all, My hate towards snorlax might have distorted a bit my words in earlier posts (Sry of thats the case). But probably would be highly beneficial for the meta if something else was given to us to handle lax a bit better. Forcing ppl to give up on certain strategies just becaus one pokemone, it its kinda bad imo.

Edited October 5, 2016 by pachima

[Murcielago]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

People have been saying tier has been more versatile now. Honestly, I see more versatility on snorlax sets, aside from that, versatility consists in the same mons over and over again in OU. Not fun anymore.

How are all OU teams the same?  we have way more diversity now than we did during the lax ban, I have played quite a bit in both metas, def. way more viable teams now.   There is too much to count.  Also if we get rid of lax its going to leave a void as to what can stop Specs zam and other super powerful special attackers.  Chancey usage will skyrocket then will trapinch.  The meta would literally be "predict the chancey/trapinch/zam switch"  I don't see how that would be more diverse or healthier.  I wish we had the old usage stats because I remember back in the day there was a lot more pokemon with higher usage statistics.  For example, Zard, umbreon, rhydon have now come into ou rather than uu...

 

 

 

If anyone is really worried about snorlax just use dusclops and or Milotic.... hard counters.  Stop using UU/NU gimmicks in ou hoping they will beat snorlax.  If you want to use gimmicky uu tier mons than play uu not ou.  That goes to trapinch too, which is gimmicky as F and only a revenge killer.  It seems that the people complaining about snorlax are the same people who try to use uu/nu gimmicks in ou... stop doing that and play the tier for what its worth.

 

And lets be real here.  The majority of pokemmo players are complete noobs.  So do you really want the future of the tier to be decided by a bunch of noobs who don't know anything.  The staff hand picked the members of the tier council for thier prowess and dedication to the game.  I would trust them much more than the "general noob public".

 

And you all have been given your opportunity to complain, the TC looked into it, and thankfully, came to the right decision... And just lol at people questioning the integrity of the TC...  The only argument to ban snorlax is that B slam is noncompetitive, which i think is a huge stretch.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Murcielago

[DoubleJ]

The goal of tiering is to limit the number of bans while maintaining competitiveness. I might suggest taking a long hard look at Blissey, Gengar, and Mence now that Snorlax has found its place in our OU. 

 

Dnite I'm on the fence with. That boy is just a wall breaking menace with superpower/espeed.

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Murcielago said:

 Chancey usage will skyrocket then will trapinch. 

This is wrong at so many different levels.

Snorlax is one of the reasons why trapinch is used.

Full speed trapinch outspeeds and traps snorlax for a clean OHKO.

If you say trapinch cant come in, I see clearly how wall dedicated you are.

Wall cores are literally brainless play. U use the wall appropriate for the scenario.(I´m not saying its bad, because it isnt)

With offensive game, u should and must predict most of stuff throw at you so You dont lose a pokemon too early.

This was to state that double switching to trapping snorlax isnt that hard at all.

If anything, snorlax should just increase trapinch´s usage.

 

[pachima]

6 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The goal of tiering is to limit the number of bans while maintaining competitiveness. I might suggest taking a long hard look at Blissey, Gengar, and Mence now that Snorlax has found its place in our OU. 

 

Dnite I'm on the fence with. That boy is just a wall breaking menace with superpower/espeed.

Nah, As stated, blissey with chansey completely ruins special side of the game which is awful. Gengar is the pure definition of unhealthiness. Dnite is just a slower but better stallbreaking dragon, which is probably too much. Salamence I srsly cant see why its banned now that lax isnt.

[Parke]

25 Pages in and nothing's been done - just close the damn thread already, we all know it's not gonna be banned

[Spaintakula]

17 minutes ago, pachima said:

This is wrong at so many different levels.

Snorlax is one of the reasons why trapinch is used.

Full speed trapinch outspeeds and traps snorlax for a clean OHKO.

If you say trapinch cant come in, I see clearly how wall dedicated you are.

Wall cores are literally brainless play. U use the wall appropriate for the scenario.(I´m not saying its bad, because it isnt)

With offensive game, u should and must predict most of stuff throw at you so You dont lose a pokemon too early.

This was to state that double switching to trapping snorlax isnt that hard at all.

If anything, snorlax should just increase trapinch´s usage.

 

For the last fucking time, trapinch was there before snorlax was OU, do you not get that trapinch was there for chansey first, so if snorlax is gone, trapinch will be there again to fuck chansey up, like holy shit is it that hard to get.

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Superpower vs. 188 HP / 144 Def Snorlax: 418-494 (82.2 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

after like 1 curse that falls to around 60%, so snorlax does in no way force you to use trapinch as much as chansey does, seeing how with a certain set, snorlax can easily avoid getting killed, while chansey just gets straight out shut down.

[pachima]

7 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

seeing how with a certain set, snorlax can easily avoid getting killed, while chansey just gets straight out shut down.

First- Most snorlaxes are not that physically defensive invested.

Second- Spikes exist.

Third- 20 hp snorlax becomes too useful with his negative speed stat (Unless you plan on switching it into banded protect stuff and rest)

Fourth- I also see how with a certain set chansey does not fall to trapinch.

Last:

Increasing usage doesn´t mean it wasn´t there before

Edited October 5, 2016 by pachima