[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[Spaintakula]

7 minutes ago, pachima said:

First- Most snorlaxes are not that physically defensive invested.

Second- Spikes exist.

Third- 20 hp snorlax becomes too useful with his negative speed stat (Unless you plan on switching it into banded protect stuff and rest)

Fourth- I also see how with a certain set chansey does not fall to trapinch.

doesn't matter, the turn you switch trapinch to it, lax gets a boost and you still fail to 1ko even without def investment, that was just for comparison on how chansey and lax differ.

And no, specs ice beam chansey isn't a way to deal with trapinch. Neither is predicting its switch and ice beaming.

Substitute is, but same could be said about snorlax

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

doesn't matter, the turn you switch trapinch to it, lax gets a boost

Looking for double switch. Pay 200k.

Also chansey doesnt even need specs to 2hko trapinch assuming yours ice beam.

[Rigamorty]

4 minutes ago, pachima said:

Looking for double switch. Pay 200k.

Also chansey doesnt even need specs to 2hko trapinch assuming yours ice beam.

you cant argue double switches as a point and then try to say chansey 2hkoing with ice beam is also a point in the same post cmon man

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Rigamorty said:

you cant argue double switches as a point and then try to say chansey 2hkoing with ice beam is also a point in the same post cmon man

Hold ur horses. I just finished what spaintakula said about ice beam.

With subs even in a double switch trapinch cant kill chansey barring a crit.

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

Looking for double switch. Pay 200k.

Also chansey doesnt even need specs to 2hko trapinch assuming yours ice beam.

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Trapinch: 110-130 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Trapinch: 110-130 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

U just confirmed me. Chansey doesnt specs. 252 def/252 sp atk is enough, or even less.

[Spaintakula]

1 minute ago, pachima said:

U just confirmed me. Chansey doesnt specs. 252 def/252 sp atk is enough, or even less.

yeah lets turn chansey's precious bulk into spatk just so it can deal with trapinch

[DrButler]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Again close this thread. A decision was made. Time to live with it

whats wrong with discussing tho?

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

yeah lets turn chansey's precious bulk into spatk just so it can deal with trapinch

precious bulk = + 15/20 % of special defense she already owns. And no, u dont need 252 sp atk. Neither ice beam honestly.

[Spaintakula]

5 minutes ago, pachima said:

precious bulk = + 15/20 % of special defense she already owns. And no, u dont need 252 sp atk. Neither ice beam honestly.

Yeah and I said substitute is a way too, guess what, not really.

First time it wont work, second time instead of firing off superpower which will make it unable for it to destroy chansey behind a sub, it'll use eq and still fuck you up with 60-70% damage.

[Rigamorty]

15 minutes ago, pachima said:

precious bulk = + 15/20 % of special defense she already owns. And no, u dont need 252 sp atk. Neither ice beam honestly.

except with sub, once the trapinch player sees sub he can just switch out and try again next time using earthquake. 

 

lol especially if you're EVing chansey's sp.def instead of defense

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Chansey: 520-613 (145.6 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 228-268 (63.8 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

although I guess def + sp.def is a thing instead of HP + Defense, but yeah, bulk is pretty precious 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Rigamorty

[pachima]

13 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

except with sub, once the trapinch player sees sub he can just switch out and try again next time using earthquake. 

 

lol especially if you're EVing chansey's sp.def instead of defense

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Chansey: 520-613 (145.6 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 228-268 (63.8 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

although I guess def + sp.def is a thing instead of HP + Defense, but yeah, bulk is pretty precious 

If you think about hp + def, I´m done!

And honestly I don´t know why I am having this conversation.

Trapinch beats most chansey. Period, But also beats most snorlax on quite a lot of circunstances.

Nothing else to say.

[DoubleJ]

31 minutes ago, DrButler said:

whats wrong with discussing tho?

Nothing honestly. Until now though the majority of posts went like this:

 

"Ban snorlax, tc is biased, no reason not to ban, you guys suck, I'm right you're wrong. "

 

Fortunately now there is fruitful conversation, even though it's way off topic.

[Rigamorty]

 

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

If you think about hp + def, I´m done!

And honestly I don´t know why I am having this conversation.

Trapinch beats most chansey. Period, But also beats most snorlax on quite a lot of circunstances.

Nothing else to say.

It beats Chansey much more reliably than it beats snorlax though. It can come in on any of its moves, it can kill under pretty much any circumstance except sub which again just means trying again later with EQ. Where as it can't come in on most of snorlax's moves, and it can't even reliably ohko. 

 

The point is, in a meta where chansey exists without snorlax, trapinch becomes much more viable. As is, Snorlax appears on most teams and has a lot of better ways to be dealt with than trapinch, so those alternatives are used much more often. If chansey were around without snorlax, and like you said Trapinch beats most chansey, it'll go up in usage. That's the whole point, trapinch usage will go up, which was the entire point of the last page because you said:

1 hour ago, pachima said:

This is wrong at so many different levels.

Snorlax is one of the reasons why trapinch is used.

Full speed trapinch outspeeds and traps snorlax for a clean OHKO.

If you say trapinch cant come in, I see clearly how wall dedicated you are.

Wall cores are literally brainless play. U use the wall appropriate for the scenario.(I´m not saying its bad, because it isnt)

With offensive game, u should and must predict most of stuff throw at you so You dont lose a pokemon too early.

This was to state that double switching to trapping snorlax isnt that hard at all.

If anything, snorlax should just increase trapinch´s usage.

 

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

 

It beats Chansey much more reliably than it beats snorlax though. It can come in on any of its moves, it can kill under pretty much any circumstance except sub which again just means trying again later with EQ. Where as it can't come in on most of snorlax's moves, and it can't even reliably ohko. 

 

The point is, in a meta where chansey exists without snorlax, trapinch becomes much more viable. As is, Snorlax appears on most teams and has a lot of better ways to be dealt with than trapinch, so those alternatives are used much more often. If chansey were around without snorlax, and like you said Trapinch beats most chansey, it'll go up in usage. That's the whole point, trapinch usage will go up, which was the entire point of the last page because you said:

I didnt start this whole chansey /trapinch stuff and I dont want to proceed it either.

Back to the topic and really summed.

Either keep snorlax and give us some tool to handle it better or ban it.

[DrButler]

17 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Nothing honestly. Until now though the majority of posts went like this:

 

"Ban snorlax, tc is biased, no reason not to ban, you guys suck, I'm right you're wrong. "

 

Fortunately now there is fruitful conversation, even though it's way off topic.

i actually agree, but if people enjoy it, wynaut? i mean we arent forced to read this, right?

[Gilan]

44 minutes ago, DrButler said:

i actually agree, but if people enjoy it, wynaut? i mean we arent forced to read this, right?

But it becomes an issue of unnecessary spam posts that add nothing to the conversation, and the real purpose of this thread is to debate and present arguments for the tier council to take in so they can make a decision. If there is a bunch of spam in the discussion then it makes it take a longer amount of time for the TC to sift through the comments. Also, spam often leads to off-topic arguments that really do not help the decision at hand.

 

It's simply easier and more organized if only people who have constructive arguments make posts in the thread.

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, DrButler said:

i actually agree, but if people enjoy it, wynaut? i mean we arent forced to read this, right?

Just been protocol to archive these discussions to preserve the beneficial points that were made. Honestly there should be seperate threads for each of the tiers just to discuss the state of OU/UU/NU/DOUBLES/LC

[gbwead]

Why Snorlax should be banned:

 

A Tasty Cep

Round 2: DrButler vs Axoa

 

[NikhilR]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Why Snorlax should be banned:

 

A Tasty Cep

Round 2: DrButler vs Axoa

 

A Tasty Cep

Round 1: NikhilR vs Lkrenz

[RysPicz]

A Tasty Cep

Semi- Finals: LifeStyle vs SoyHector

[LifeStyle]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

A Tasty Cep

Semi- Finals: LifeStyle vs SoyHector

If you can't beat them, join them :]

[DrButler]

3 hours ago, gbwead said:

Why Snorlax should be banned:

 

A Tasty Cep

Round 2: DrButler vs Axoa

 

shame on you, now people check dem missplays lel.

 

on a serious note: the problem wasnt lax itself, but the fact that milo got the cb. not defending lax here,  i dont give a damn if it stays or not, but usually milo walls it 24/7, so yeah.

[OrangeManiac]

So in all fairness how about quoting the numerous matches where Snorlax felt like just another Pokemon?

 

Any OU tournament for last 4-5 weeks: Anyone vs OrangeManiac. And I wasn't the one using the Lax in any of them. I'm not using that dumb argument that "ur bad if you cant teambuild against lax", I'm saying that you will pay attention to it when it's an absolute monster (when getting lots of Bslam paralyzes off), but you don't remember when it didn't.

 

In general I think that video proof especially from one match is kinda unreliable what comes to tiering discussion.

[NikhilR]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

So in all fairness how about quoting the numerous matches where Snorlax felt like just another Pokemon?

 

Any OU tournament for last 4-5 weeks: Anyone vs OrangeManiac. And I wasn't the one using the Lax in any of them. I'm not using that dumb argument that "ur bad if you cant teambuild against lax", I'm saying that you will pay attention to it when it's an absolute monster (when getting lots of Bslam paralyzes off), but you don't remember when it didn't.

 

In general I think that video proof especially from one match is kinda unreliable what comes to tiering discussion.

But it's not video proof from just one match, it's had an impact on several matches in the latest tournament and many others. I get what you're saying about quoting matches where Snorlax has felt like another pokemon, but can anyone else show me a match where another pokemon had the same sweeping capabilities as a Curse Snorlax? When you're down 6-3 vs your opponent and one of your pokemon manages to then take out all 6 pokemon because of how it uses a majority of the meta as set up bait, it really is a problem. For me it's Curse Lax that is more broken than any other Lax. 

 

If we had a faster replay system, I would look and see what other matches are there where Curselax had a huge impact. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by NikhilR