Imperial

A little off-topic from the conversation but I am keen to hear from the Tier Council members who already placed a vote on Nidoqueen, in particular the person who voted for it to stay. The whole issue we were having was a lack of transparency between Tier Council and the community, devs are a completely separate issue, but I've only seen particular members addressing their views and communicating with the wider community like @PoseidonWrath in particular. All I ask for is each Tier Council member to express their views on each suspect test and why they think the Pokemon is healthy or unhealthy for the tier. Maybe I'm wrong and being a part of Tier Council is extremely time-consuming alongside other commitments people have, but then the question is why join it in the first place?

@Robbinho

Will post screenshots later, but I can confirm I received 3m from both @Sebat and @PoseidonWrath Good luck both!

First off, thank you for putting this thread up. I've used Nidoqueen in every single one of my teams - I've battled against all playstyles (Hyper Offense, Full Stall, Balance/Bulky Offense) and have won against players ranging from unranked/trainer to #1 so I hope that the number of games I've played helps to provide valuable insight into Nidoqueen after the tier changes. First off, let's look at how Nidoqueen is faring in the tier after the first three days: Nidoqueen currently has the highest win % out of all of the Pokemon, including the most threatening ones such as Blaziken and Eelektross (I won't count Primape as 1.3% is hardly a good indicator of usage). Already, this shows how much of an influence the Pokemon has had on the meta. Defensively Nidoqueen was always a solid option for balanced and defensive teams - it was able to sponge hits on the physical and special set depending on its set, very good bulk, its ability to set up stealth rocks and toxic spikes/toxic and access to Ice Beam/Earth Power/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt and Earthquake on the physical set meant it already pressured teams. Offensively The biggest concern and why I'm glad the discussion is taking place is its offensive Life Orb set. Nidoqueen is a fantastic wallbreaker just like Yanmega in UU, but unlike Yanmega, it does not have a x4 weakness to rocks meaning it can switch into hazards safely, it's a fantastic volt stopper meaning it heavily pressures Rotoms and Eelektross as it outspeeds both (Eelektross is already a solid A+), it has fantastic dual typing for the tier, it's unable to be poisoned and it can also self-recover with Moonlight if needed. Calcs The set I've been using is Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower although I've seen some people ice Ice Beam over Thunderbolt for Altaria (meaning Mantine can check it) and others have swapped an offensive move for Moonlight. As a wallbreaker, it's able to 2KO almost every single defensive mon in the tier, especially when hazards are on the field. I've provided the following calcs below from the defensive Pokemon I've commonly faced (credit to @PoseidonWrath for posting several others so I've only listed a few examples): Checks The following Pokemon are able to check Nidoqueen, some more reliably than others. Please note that I'll be going with the most offensive set with a STAB move: Like every Pokemon, Nidoqueen has its flaws. Nidoqueen isn't the fastest in the tier, and a lot of Pokemon are able to pressure it, such as Sceptile (must have leaf storm to 1KO it after rocks), Sharpedo and Cloyster (if scarf/sash), Gallade, Alakazam and Zoroark. It is also vulnerable to priority moves from Pokemon such as Azumarill, Samurott and potentially Absol. In conclusion, as much as I loved using this Pokemon, it's clear that it threatens both the offensive and defensive staple of the tier, and even if people take the time to adapt, unlike with Yanmega in UU the tools we currently have are too fragile to reliably check and pressure Nidoqueen meaning that it should be quick banned. I would love to hear members of Tier Council defend Nidoqueen since they love an unstable tier, and I speak as an offensive-styled player so I don't have any hidden motives behind my reasoning. P.S. Please do not quote me Caioxlive.

By request I've created a betting thread for PokeMMO's third Little Cup Premier League. Relevant links: Bracket (regular season) LCPL Discord LC Tiering Rules: PLEASE READ BEFORE TAKING OR MAKING BETS - Tied matches are void (does not include matches with tie-breakers) - Unplayed matches are void* - All activity win bets are void* - Matches that have been changed due to subbed players are void - Bets over 500k may be mailed to a trusted middleman if any one of the two players feels its necessary - Bets must be posted before the matches are played - No betting against yourself (you can bet for yourself to win) - Bets with a player who has been banned are void unless/until that player is unbanned* - No new bets until old betting debts are cleared - Players that do not comply with these rules will be added to a BLACK LIST - Once you take a bet you may NOT retract that bet for whatever reason - The only way you can have a bet retracted is if BOTH players agree on retracting the bet - When making bets that go throughout the whole season, please be cautious and make sure you have what you bet by the end of the season NEW - Spontaneous bets (defined as 5-10 minutes before the match starts in Vermilion City) As this happens a lot and people do not pay their bets afterwards this rule will be enforced following the [PSL XV] edition. Making the bet Please only propose the bet if you actually have the money Accepting the bet Make sure you whisper the person and that they acknowledge you accepting the bet (ideally including the amount in the main channel) - this makes evidence easier to identify when sending me screenshots. If you are accepting high bets (e.g. 1m), I would recommend using a middleman (it doesn't necessarily have to be someone in this list) but of course you choose this at your own risk. Paying the bets Players who owe 300k or under will be given 24 hours before being added to the blacklist. Players who owe more than 300k will be given 48 hours before being added to the blacklist. *Exceptions being if you're away for a few days etc... I am more than happy to publicly name and shame players who do not intend to pay their bets. If blacklisted players are owed money for future bets then they should not be paid until they pay what they owe themselves. I know people love making spontaneous bets, but there's a betting thread for a reason. At the end of the day it's your decision and I won't be moderating everyone who didn't pay. - We are not keeping up with everyone's bets so its your job to keep track of your bets and who wins what *This rule does not apply when betting on teams Disclaimer: Take each bet with risk! Although unlikely, it is possible you can get scammed and I won't be held responsible to pay unpaid debts. Though players that do not comply will be added to BLACK LIST and all players will be warned when betting with those players. Players can bet with players on the blacklist however the blacklist is only there to warn them. How to Bet: When you are betting, provide the following info: 1. Your IGN 2. What match(es) and which player(s) you are betting on 3. What are you wagering NEW - Grey list Players who were blacklisted for a previous event/tournament will appear in the grey list. They will not be automatically added to the blacklist for LCPL 3, however the purpose is to warn players about those who have previously scammed. Check the list and bet with caution: @Toxicz @branYT You have one week from when this thread was created to send me a list of players who did not pay their bets - if you do not have sufficient evidence then they will not be added. Trusted Middlemans: Blacklist: This starts with a clean list, if you know someone has a dodgy history make that risk yourself.

Shoutout to @Requi for the amazing banner! PvP Team Tournament Team Of The Year 2022 - Winners 1st Place November 2022 - bracket  2nd Place October 2022 - bracket September 2022 - bracket February 2022 - bracket HALOTT @HALOTT 1st Place [OU] Deep In The Clay! [Doubles] Wrath of Kingdra [Doubles] Awaken my starters!  2nd Place Doubles Season #3 Finale - East [OU] A Song Of Ice And Shadow Will You Go to the Prom With Me? ♥ [UU] Sharp Dragon! YJos @YJos 1st Place [Doubles] Disco Bell [Doubles] Triumph Aircraft , [Doubles] Flying Egg [UU] Don't skip upper arms Day [NU] Up and Down the Tier Tree [Doubles] Iron Mon [Doubles] The Steel Gentleman Doubles Season #6 Doubles Season #6 Finale - West [Metronome] The Cutest Pie  2nd Place Doubles Season #6 Finale - East [Doubles] Back to the Ice Age spelenn @spelenn  2nd Place Over Used Season #10 Finale - East evxsion @evxsion  2nd Place [OU] Fire Warrior Over Used Season #9 Finale - West (bronze crown) Onraider @Onraider  2nd Place [Doubles] The Spore Protector Incognition @Imperial  2nd Place [NU] The Valiant Excalibur! Skylux @skyluxNG  2nd Place [UU] The Sand Clash TehAqua @TehAqua  2nd Place [OU] Star Shaped Shenanigans PinkWings @PinkWings 1st Place PokeMMO Winter Showdown Qualifiers  2nd Place Wednesday Night Doubles Qualifiers [OU] Team Rocket Recruitment TheBloo @TheBloo 1st Place http://www.pkparaiso.com/imagenes/xy/sprites/animados-shiny/sentret.gif [NU] Year's Brawl [OU] It Takes 2⁶ to Tango Wednesday Night Doubles Qualifiers  2nd Place Wednesday Night Doubles Qualifiers Sunday Night Heavyweights Qualifiers zMago @xMago 1st Place [NU] Bird Puns Are Hawkward  2nd Place Never Used Season #7 Finale - West (bronze crown) Never Used Season #5 Finale - West (bronze crown) zGrim 1st Place [NU] WARNING: Guard Dog on Duty [NU] Look A That!, A Snow Party PvE In progress.

Can't wait for TC to announce that they're keeping p2 in UU alongside dropping down Haxorus and Salamence. Why don't you guys also reintroduce PZ, Staraptor and Lucario into the tier?

My predictions: Salamence - suspect test, eventually getting banned(?) Haxorus - suspect test, eventually getting banned(?) Cloyster - suspect test, will probably be fine for the tier or move up to UU Nidoqueen - quickban Venomoth - unban Sharpedo - ban Porygon2 - ban

That banner is absolutely stunning

I thought I'd make one final comment here alongside on Discord, I would propose the following solutions: Increase the usage % to around 4.8-5% - even increasing it slightly will see a massive difference in the number of mons yo-yo-ing from UU and NU Consider tournament usage from quarterfinals onwards UU Salamence - quickban (offensive uber) Porygon2 - ban (offensive/defensive uber) Milotic - nothing but this thing will be a huge pain in the ass Jolteon - pressures offensive teams a lot but let's give this a chance NU Nidoqueen - quickban (offensive uber) Cloyster - suspect test Zoroark - this will be strong but I think we have the tools to cope with it and we had it in NU before (I think without Gigalith in the tier) - this is fine I think a thread should be created for Cloyster and a vote placed on Nidoqueen and Salamence as soon as possible. Edit - I believe that Sharpedo should be banned or at the minimum a thread be created. I think there is enough evidence that every set poses a huge threat to a large number of mons in the tier. I was wrong about Scrafty, this is fine. Shoutout to @PoseidonWrath for being the most transparent TC member, I'm sure you all do a great job but it would be nice to have more members be transparent about their discussions with us so we can help deliver our input if needed.

I agree with what you've said, the usage system is completely flawed for the lower tiers and I'll repeat myself and state that I really hope they implement either a slightly increased usage % or include tournament usage as well (a much better indicator). I've spotted that pattern of things yo-yo-ing between NU and UU and that's annoyed me personally, good examples include Slowbro, Druddigon, Tentacruel and Gligar. Hopefully the above solution can be considered sooner rather than later. Honestly going forwards I can see UU and NU becoming heavily stall favoured with the number of defensive mons being into the tier, I really hope I'm proved wrong because OU has already become so boring and it's only going to potentially get worse with some of the new HAs and gen 9 movesets coming out.

Thank you, it would be great if Tier Council can also consider Nidoqueen's offensive set in the tier. I had initial concerns about Cloyster but I feel this will probably be fine.

Crawdaunt is centralising but we still have Shaymin, Poliwrath and potentially Salamence(?) - my concerns about the latter below: @Munya - Please could you request that Tier Council take a look into Salamence? The initial suspect test never came to a conclusion because it automatically went to OU once it gained its Hidden Ability but now it will drop down based on usage. There's the argument that there are decent checks for it, but it still pressures offensive teams massively with its speed (speed ties with Shaymin and both can self-recover admittedly although Salamence has a far superior typing), versatile sets (DD + mixed) and Moxie, and with Porygon2 potentially being banned and Mamoswine no longer being in the tier when the initial discussion was made, I believe there should be a new suspect test at the minimum or a quickban if many people already feel the same about this. P.S. Please don't say that Jolteon is the answer to keeping this at bay.

What are Tier Council's initial thoughts on the following Pokemon coming down to NU? Cloyster - 3.58% Usage in UU Nidoqueen - 3.70% Usage in UU I'm concerned about Nidoqueen's offensive set in the tier with its decent bulk. Tentacruel, Gastrodon and Vaporeon dropping down will make some interesting team cores and possibly favour a more defensive meta, Sceptile's usage will likely be high as it heavily pressures all of these alongside AV Eelektross being great. I also remember Salamence was being suspect tested in UU at the time but it was automatically placed in OU because it had Moxie. Can TC confirm their stance on this and if the suspect test ended or if a vote will take place? (Mamoswine is no longer in the tier)

Unless I misunderstood your comment, removing Crawdaunt and Shaymin does not solve the underlying issue with Porygon2 - it can switch into almost any offensive Pokemon which isn't a fighting type, most offensive mons are unable to freely switch into porygon2 without taking serious damage/risk of RNG. It can pivot out to regain momentum if needed and it's incredibly bulky overall so it fits into most/every teambuild. When Porygon2 was first introduced, most people were forced to run Gigalith/Empoleon/Dusclops in their teams. Defensive teams can handle p2, but for what it was initially designed to do defensively it's incredibly restricting for offensive gameplay, and that should not be the case for a 'defensive' mon. I will emphasise my above comment in response to what you said here: Porygon2 is not affecting how long matches are, it's restricting offensive gameplay and should be banned as an offensive uber as unlike Porygon-Z, it carries incredible bulk and can be utilised defensively and offensively. Anyway the duck will likely be rebanned so this conversation is pointless.

Thank you @KaynineXL for hosting an amazing PSL and letting me create and moderate this thread, and thank you to the other people who helped with being a middleman. 2 people were blacklisted - if someone would like me to create a betting thread for a future tournament I will keep these people on the blacklist, otherwise I will let the next person decide if they want to start with a new list. Mods please lock this thread by the end of the week to give everyone time to pay remaining bets.

I agree with the above comments - I love the Pokemon but Porygon2 should be banned from the tier. First off, this is a Pokemon that can make any teambuild look way better than it is, especially more offensive teams as it can sponge hits from several mons, return hefty damage in return with the modest download set and also pivot out safely if needed. Secondly, this thing still heavily restricts offensive play as many/most offensive mons can't switch into it (haven't calculated stuff like AV Machamp but Tri Attack can do 35-40% to Bisharp), not to mention the risk of being haxxed/RNG to death by Tri Attack spam (I've seen so many freezes when spectating UU matches). The main stuff I believe can reliably check this are: Porygon2 (lol) Dusclops Gigalith Umbreon Spiritomb(?) Bronzong Snorlax Rhyperior (AV set?) Empoleon (depends on chip damage & thunderbolt) Most of these can't do anything in return, except for possibly poisoning it which may or may not make a huge difference. As for Shaymin, this is definitely A or S tier right now - the 40% special defense drop is annoying with Seed Flare and it has fantastic move coverage to restrict many offensive mons from switching in, but personally I'm not sure if this is banworthy yet, I'd rather wait to see what happens when p2 gets banned which should definitely take priority. P.S. As always happy to provide calcs if needed to justify my opinion.

Yes sure, done. If someone else creates/moderates the next betting thread I won't be able to have the final say, but happy to keep him blacklisted when I create one again.

@PoseidonWrath

Money has been sent to @Lunarck Thank you for using me as middleman.

@PKTxKharma won the bet - the money has been sent to him. Thank you both for using me as the middleman.

Confirmed on the Discord between @PKTxKharma and @Luke - good luck!

Part 1: TBC Part 2 Team name: Tehincog Players: Incognition, Tomaselio

Received money from both - good luck! @BLimao @Lunarck