Doubt about the introduction of raids and legendaries

[lILucyIl]

After the mention that I could see legendary species with HA in a post by administrator Rache, I had doubts.

Do you plan to add Blaziken with raid boost in the future?

If so... will they enable Uber as a tier?

Will the legendary species apart from the birds and beasts of Kanto and Johto add more legendaries? Will they only be singular and minor or will they add major legendaries?

I would appreciate it if you could clear these doubts for me please.

 

[lILucyIl]

@Rache Sorry if I mention it, if this is wrong and I'm bothering you, I won't do it again and I apologize for it.

[Rache]

The legendaries we'll be allowing players to permanently obtain are the ones that are balanced enough for standard OU PvP. We don't intend to ever make "uber" legendaries obtainable in an unrestricted form as they would entirely warp the game around themselves.

 

If content difficulty is balanced under the assumption that players are all using titans like Kyogre, it becomes too difficult for players who don't have access to them. If it's not balanced around them, it becomes too easy for players who do have them. Both outcomes force their usage on the vast majority of teams in order to play hard fights optimally. The possibility of an ubers tier isn't worth the damage their permanent availability would cause to the rest of the game, although we might consider temporary ownership of them sometime in the future.

 

Speed Boost Blaziken may be on the table at some point with its ability banned in singles PvP due to the exceptions made for Draco Meteor Hydreigon and Swords Dance Garchomp to allow them in PvE and doubles. This isn't a guarantee though, it would only come after after extensive testing has been done to ensure that it doesn't affect PvE balancing in an undesirable way.

[Axelator]

2 hours ago, Rache said:

The legendaries we'll be allowing players to permanently obtain are the ones that are balanced enough for standard OU PvP. We don't intend to ever make "uber" legendaries obtainable in an unrestricted form as they would entirely warp the game around themselves.

 

If content difficulty is balanced under the assumption that players are all using titans like Kyogre, it becomes too difficult for players who don't have access to them. If it's not balanced around them, it becomes too easy for players who do have them. Both outcomes force their usage on the vast majority of teams in order to play hard fights optimally. The possibility of an ubers tier isn't worth the damage their permanent availability would cause to the rest of the game, although we might consider temporary ownership of them sometime in the future.

 

Speed Boost Blaziken may be on the table at some point with its ability banned in singles PvP due to the exceptions made for Draco Meteor Hydreigon and Swords Dance Garchomp to allow them be used in PvE and doubles. This isn't a guarantee though, it would only come after after extensive testing has been done to ensure that it doesn't affect PvE balancing in an undesirable way.

Can we have Latias at least as a Heal Pulse slave in PvE?

[Rache]

3 minutes ago, Axelator said:

Can we have Latias at least as a Heal Pulse slave in PvE?

It's a package deal with Latios, which is threatening enough that it would be unwise to drop them before the other legendaries and HA mons with positive matchups against them have been introduced to the tier. Both will likely come someday (with close monitoring in PvP) but it's unlikely that it will be soon.

[lILucyIl]

6 hours ago, Rache said:

Los legendarios que permitiremos a los jugadores obtener permanentemente son aquellos que están lo suficientemente equilibrados para el PvP estándar de OU. No tenemos la intención de hacer que los legendarios "súper" estén disponibles sin restricciones, ya que deformarían por completo el juego a su alrededor.

 

Si la dificultad del contenido se equilibra bajo el supuesto de que todos los jugadores usan titanes como Kyogre, se vuelve demasiado difícil para los jugadores que no tienen acceso a ellos. Si no está equilibrado en torno a ellos, resulta demasiado fácil para los jugadores que los tienen. Ambos resultados obligan a su uso en la gran mayoría de equipos para poder jugar peleas duras de manera óptima. La posibilidad de un nivel súper no vale el daño que su disponibilidad permanente causaría al resto del juego, aunque podríamos considerar la propiedad temporal de ellos en algún momento en el futuro.

 

Speed Boost Blaziken puede estar sobre la mesa en algún momento con su habilidad prohibida en PvP individuales debido a las excepciones hechas para Draco Meteor Hydreigon y Swords Dance Garchomp para permitirlos en PvE y dobles. Sin embargo, esto no es una garantía, solo se producirá después de que se hayan realizado pruebas exhaustivas para garantizar que no afecte el equilibrio PvE de una manera no deseada.

I understand the issue of balance in pvp. I don't think I expressed myself well and I'm sorry, I understand that the older legendaries unbalance the pvp of OU, which for pokemon like Kyogre would make the pvp unfair for the newer ones, my question is the following.

 

Is there the possibility of adding, for example, Kyogre in a raid and that when obtained it can be used for both pve and normal casual pvp but which are banned in the tiers?

 

For example, when you challenge a friend in person, without ranking or tiers or even...enable a specific or unique tier for those older legendaries, either from time to time or permanently and only be playable on that tier, but not in the others

Edited March 20 by lILucyIl

[Rache]

7 hours ago, lILucyIl said:

I understand the issue of balance in pvp. I don't think I expressed myself well and I'm sorry, I understand that the older legendaries unbalance the pvp of OU, which for pokemon like Kyogre would make the pvp unfair for the newer ones, my question is the following.

 

Is there the possibility of adding, for example, Kyogre in a raid and that when obtained it can be used for both pve and normal casual pvp but which are banned in the tiers?

 

For example, when you challenge a friend in person, without ranking or tiers or even...enable a specific or unique tier for those older legendaries, either from time to time or permanently and only be playable on that tier, but not in the others

The issue with implementing the strongest legendaries in a permanent form is the impact they'll have on PvE, not PvP. We can ban overpowered species from competitive play, but can't (reasonably) ban them from the rest of the game after making them available for capture.

[VadimEmpoleon]

23 minutes ago, Rache said:

The issue with implementing the strongest legendaries in a permanent form is the impact they'll have on PvE, not PvP. We can ban overpowered species from competitive play, but can't (reasonably) ban them from the rest of the game after making them available for capture.

Wouldn’t it be possible to ban them from relevant PvE instances? For example in a similar way you can’t use the same species or same items in some PvE instances like Red or Pumpking (you get a message saying you can’t battle it), we could have a space in the dex (it could be ubers or something different) for those mons so even newer players can find this info and therefore avoiding confusion.

 

There are also mons that would probably be overpowered for PvP but not for PvE, for example the luck based ones, do these ones have any chance of getting introduced?

 

And thank you for answering the previous questions in this post, it is really interesting to know all this info.

[Rache]

Just now, VadimEmpoleon said:

Wouldn’t it be possible to ban them from relevant PvE instances? For example in a similar way you can’t use the same species or same items in some PvE instances like Red or Pumpking (you get a message saying you can’t battle it), we could have a space in the dex (it could be ubers or something different) for those mons so even newer players can find this info and therefore avoiding confusion.

Although possible, it isn't good design to permanently give you something that you can't meaningfully use.

 

Just now, VadimEmpoleon said:

There are also mons that would probably be overpowered for PvP but not for PvE, for example the luck based ones, do these ones have any chance of getting introduced?

We might consider Shaymin-Sky for PvE (and maybe doubles) at some point as you can re-enable it for OU by reverting it to its base form. We'd prefer not to implement entire species that will instantly and forever be banned from singles PvP though.

[RysPicz]

pls Terrakion 

[lILucyIl]

1 hour ago, Rache said:

El problema de implementar los legendarios más fuertes de forma permanente es el impacto que tendrán en PvE, no en PvP. Podemos prohibir las especies dominadas del juego competitivo, pero no podemos (razonablemente) prohibirlas del resto del juego después de ponerlas a disposición para su captura.

I appreciate your patience and for clarifying my doubts, thank you very much. My last question, which I forgot to add in the original post, is the following.

 

Since Shaymin is a unique that we obtained through the raids in the event, will this be replicated again, for example, Jirachi? I will ask a more general and clear question.

 

Are there plans to add more legendaries such as the Regis from Hoenn, Sinnoh or Unova in the raids or add singular apart from Shaymin, which in this case would be Mew, Jirachi, Celebi, Darkrai, Victini? maybe Latias, Latios and Deoxys to give some extra examples

[Rache]

2 minutes ago, lILucyIl said:

I appreciate your patience and for clarifying my doubts, thank you very much. My last question, which I forgot to add in the original post, is the following.

 

Since Shaymin is a unique that we obtained through the raids in the event, will this be replicated again, for example, Jirachi? I will ask a more general and clear question.

 

Are there plans to add more legendaries such as the Regis from Hoenn, Sinnoh or Unova in the raids or add singular apart from Shaymin, which in this case would be Mew, Jirachi, Celebi, Darkrai, Victini? maybe Latias, Latios and Deoxys to give some extra examples

Raids may be the obtainment method for some legendaries in the future. For which ones, you'll have to wait and see.

[Ziiiiio]

It's hard to put soild lengens in this game not just because of balancing, other reason should be marketing

 

Before amoonguss and HA crobat added to this game, Sub Serp was too strong, a 5*31 HA timid Serp was like 2.7M

 

 

[XanarchyNL]

On 3/20/2024 at 10:52 PM, Rache said:

Raids may be the obtainment method for some legendaries in the future. For which ones, you'll have to wait and see.

Oof. i hoped this wouldnt be the case

Edited March 22 by XanarchyNL

[ElRichMO]

Reading the post I would like to know why we couldn't leave Kyogre, for example, with some restrictions on the gift ribbon so that you can't give it to another player / move it to another place And could you leave a message so that it cannot be used in the gyms because I understand that Destroy a legendary "super" in these gyms and this would apply to Red/League NPC/The Pumpkin King For normal NPCs, it can be an option so as not to take away all its use. @Rache

I'm thinking it could be an option since ubers like Tier cannot enable it  

[ElRichMO]

Thank you for your attention rache  

[Rache]

55 minutes ago, ElRichMO said:

Reading the post I would like to know why we couldn't leave Kyogre, for example, with some restrictions on the gift ribbon so that you can't give it to another player / move it to another place And could you leave a message so that it cannot be used in the gyms because I understand that Destroy a legendary "super" in these gyms and this would apply to Red/League NPC/The Pumpkin King For normal NPCs, it can be an option so as not to take away all its use. @Rache

I'm thinking it could be an option since ubers like Tier cannot enable it  

 

On 3/20/2024 at 4:19 PM, Rache said:

Although possible, it isn't good design to permanently give you something that you can't meaningfully use.

 

[Xratello]

Thx for the info Boss @Rache ❤️

[lILucyIl]

4 hours ago, Rache said:

 

 

Thank you very much Rache for your kindness.

 

During the days that this post was published, I was talking and seeing opinions regarding the subject, after that I had some doubts.

 

I'm not sure if you mentioned that major legendaries are not only possible in "individual pvp".

 

In that case, would they be possible in doubles?

 

The issue of imbalance raises another question for me, why not only prohibit the use of pve but only in event bosses or slight restrictions to use them in pve such as gymnations for example, having the league finished at a minimum and in raid issues or only allow its use in 5 stars and 1 single major legendary per raid combat or only enable it against another major raid legendary against the boss.

 

Although I also have another doubt, although I don't know if this is possible but... Would it be possible to lower the enormous stats of the older legendaries from 680 to 600, leaving their stats at the level of pseudo-legendaries? even prohibiting certain hidden abilities to balance them.

 

Since I see that Hydreigon is able to oneshot a Zekrom from a draco comet without problems. I would appreciate your response please.

 

P.S. This postscript is for other people, they are confusing me with a boy and no, I'm not a boy, I'm a girl haha, it's just that the translation is a little complicated in that context.

Edited March 22 by lILucyIl

[Rache]

46 minutes ago, lILucyIl said:

I'm not sure if you mentioned that major legendaries are not only possible in "individual pvp".

 

In that case, would they be possible in doubles?

We consider suitability for OU to be a good indicator of whether a species is suitable for the game at all. If a legendary is too overwhelming for the tier containing the best regular mons, that legendary is also extremely likely to outcompete them in PvE. In a game which heavily emphasizes team customization, balance between options is important to allow players to effectively utilize a variety of them. When uber legendaries are almost always the best in their roles or good enough generalists to compensate for a lack of specialization, there is little reason to use anything else once you've got them.

We're willing to make some minor concessions for doubles when a single move is the issue with an otherwise reasonable OU mon (and that move doesn't break it in PvE), but introducing something new that is immediately and forever banished from standard OU play is a balancing failure which indicates that it shouldn't have been implemented. Many uber legendaries would be banworthy in the current doubles format too.

 

 

46 minutes ago, lILucyIl said:

The issue of imbalance raises another question for me, why not only prohibit the use of pve but only in event bosses or slight restrictions to use them in pve such as gymnations for example, having the league finished at a minimum and in raid issues or only allow its use in 5 stars and 1 single major legendary per raid combat or only enable it against another major raid legendary against the boss.

I'm not a fan of arbitrary restrictions on where and how you can use something that otherwise behaves like everything else you own, it isn't good game design. If we ever make uber legendaries available, it will likely be temporary ownership rather than allowing them to be permanently kept.

 

 

46 minutes ago, lILucyIl said:

Although I also have another doubt, although I don't know if this is possible but... Would it be possible to lower the enormous stats of the older legendaries from 680 to 600, leaving their stats at the level of pseudo-legendaries? even prohibiting certain hidden abilities to balance them.

We'd prefer to avoid base stat modification as their battle performance is a large part of their identity. It's also confusing when they don't live up to a player's expectations when using or facing them.

 

 

46 minutes ago, lILucyIl said:

Since I see that Hydreigon is able to oneshot a Zekrom from a draco comet without problems.

Being unable to withstand a powerful super effective attack really doesn't mean anything.

252+ Atk Choice Band Beedrill X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 366-432 (103.6 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[RysPicz]

17 minutes ago, Rache said:

Being unable to withstand a powerful super effective attack really doesn't mean anything.

252+ Atk Choice Band Beedrill X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 366-432 (103.6 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Beedrill confirmed uber, please ban. While at, I have one more uber for you to ban:

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pidgey Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 150-176 (85.7 - 100.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

[XanarchyNL]

1 hour ago, Rache said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Beedrill X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 366-432 (103.6 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Edited March 22 by XanarchyNL
Image

[R34ct1on]

Again and again, a great game design showcase

Edited March 22 by R34ct1on

[lILucyIl]

thank you very much for your patience and for the info @Rache

[TTVimjustbetter]

On 3/20/2024 at 5:52 PM, Rache said:

Raids may be the obtainment method for some legendaries in the future. For which ones, you'll have to wait and see.

I always imagined dungeons to lead to obtaining legendaries, have raids replaced dungeons or are they an 'addition to?'