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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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The OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. All general meta discussion is to take part in the OU viability thread.

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.
  • Posts that disagree with another poster's requests are not allowed, if you do not believe that Pokemon is a top tier threat then you need to argue it's place in the viability ranking thread. You are however, welcome to post additional information/arguments that you feel a poster has missed, other than that you can like the post to show your support and agreement. 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the DPP tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

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Where does 'normal' discussion of Pokémon take place, seeing as all discussion threads got locked while they could still be used to discuss the pokemon in general.

 

edit:

Requesting suspect test on Dugtrio under the Supportive characteristic and also the uncompetitive criteria. Dugtrio has been a controversial Pokémon. Arena Trap completely takes away choice from the player and it effortlessly gets rid of things like Metagross, Heracross and even weakened Gengar with Pursuit. Dugtrio also brings centralization to the metagame as Levitaters and Flying typed Pokémon are not afraid to get trapped. Dugtrio however can mostly only come in when something died although sometimes the price of getting rid of your opponent's Metagross/Snorlax/Blissey/etc far outweigh the loss of a more 'irrelevant' Pokémon (if you deduct that based on team match up).

Edited by ThinkNice
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Where does 'normal' discussion of Pokémon take place, seeing as all discussion threads got locked while they could still be used to discuss the pokemon in general.

General meta discussion will take part in the viability threads, I have pinned both your's and Craig's viability threads. If someone feels a certain Pokemon needs to be focused on they can make a suggestion in these threads and the council will open one if they believe that it does indeed warrant a discussion. Suspects will be decided solely by the Council based on viability threads and discussion threads. 

 

 

Edit: This is not to limit discussion but rather stop discussion becoming slightly off topic by the opening of so many threads at once. 

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The OU Council has spent some time discussing the suggestion put forward about Dugtrio, I will summarise the points that they brought forward regarding it.

The council felt that there was no need for opening a new discussion thread because everything that could be said about Dugtrio had occurred in the previous discussion thread. Instead they decided to tackle the issue of a Dugtrio suspect test. While the council agrees that Dugtrio has certain uncompetitive aspects, this does not necessarily equate to it being ban worthy. The council felt that despite Dugtrio’s uncompetitive characteristics, it can still positively impact the OU meta by encouraging careful gameplay and also posing as a threat to the most used Pokemon in the tier without negatively impacting their usage.

They felt that Dugtrio does not play as big a threat as it used to pre-update, where special attackers were by far the most widely used and threatening aspect of OU. Before Dugtrio was a dangerous support Pokemon that would trap and kill a Pokemon to allow another to sweep through an opponent’s team easily. The rise of physical teams has negated the use for Dugtrio as they are not reliant on it like the previously popular special teams. Pokemon like Metagross and Swampert have contributed to the nerf of special attackers and Dugtrio is no longer an essential must have on teams to take out special walls. They argued that “Subtrio” was a thing of the past but that Choice Band Dugtrio still makes for a worthy revenge killer- however it comes with added flaws, such as being able to be trapped itself.

 

To quote Senile from the Council PM;

Physical teams are now onpar, if not better than Special teams, while being much more consistent because they don't rely on 1 fragile, prediction based pokemon like Dugtrio. Dugtrio was banned because Dugtrio + Special attacker teams were a dominant and powerful playstyle, but now it's hardly even viable in comparison to better team compositions. Whereas Dugtrio used to be a key supporter, he's now just a powerful revenge killer, not a keystone in a godly, uncompetitive archetype.”

 

To quote Robofiend from the Council PM;

CB Dugtrio's another story, but, like Senile, I think it's ultimately kind of a force for good. It can be used to take out Heracross, but can also fall to Sub/SD or Endure sets. It can revenge kill Metagross, but dies to one Meteor Mash and can't take Meta at full health. It traps weakened or sleeping Snorlax, providing a rare check to its otherwise almost complete dominance. It's definitely uncompetitive, but people want to cast it as unhealthy for an evolving metagame, which I just don't see. Dugtrio is a frail, semi-reliable and relatively weak revenge killer trying to swim in a sea of offensive superthreats like Heracross and Snorlax and it just can't abuse prediction as well as it used to be able to. As with the Sub set, it struggles to find easy double swaps with fewer special attackers around. Lastly, other top threats like Gengar, Weezing, Skarmory, Arcanine, Slowbro and Gyarados laugh at Dugtrio - making it more likely that you'll have a hole in your team when you use it and end up paying a price for using it, when you could just rely on another pokemon to support your team.

 

To quote BurntZebra from the Council PM;

Another thing before split, users of dugtrio weren't as punished after they trapped something, but now there's an improved moveset drum zard, gyarados with actual coverage moves, dragon dance kingdra, all of which weren't really prevalent before the split. I've seen many people get swept by gyarados after their dugtrio traps snorlax since special attackers have a hard time vs gyarados, and usually rely on preventing gyarados from switching in, in order to prevent it from sweeping.”

 

After taking the above into account the consensus on the council was that Dugtrio will not be suspect tested and will remain in OU.

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I can agree with this decision. However, this does raise a question for me. Namely: what is the OU Council planning for the future of OU? The majority of the people, agree that OU is incredibly centralized and unbalanced right now. Most importantly, it's just not fun to play or watch. As I see it there were only a few Pokémon worthy of suspecting which are:

 

- Heracross: which isn't deemed banworthy with Pokémon like Gyarados, Gengar, Weezing, Skarmory and Arcanine countering/checking it fairly well and being really common in OU.

- Metagross: which isn't deemed banworthy as the CB set is easily walled and the other sets lack raw power. Metagross is also checked/countered by a lot of Heracross' checks and counters.

- Dugtrio: which isn't deemed banworthy as yes it is uncompetitive but it doesn't have a negative impact on the metagame. In fact it checks a lot of the S rank threats.

- Snorlax: which is like on the brink of being banned but doesn't quite make the cut.

 

Other than these four Pokémon there is nothing in the OU metagame right now that can be remotely considered for a suspect. And seeing as these four Pokémon don't meet our 'current' uber characteristics, what is the council planning on doing? Nothing? Hoping that we get gen IV moves soon? Are we going to be playing with a broken OU metagame for possibly another half year - year? Is the Council planning on unbanning something like Tyranitar with complex bans on it or are we going to see a Snorlax + Blissey suspect? What I'm trying to say is: something needs to be done in OU right now. And with the ban criteria we have right now, the council won't be able to do anything.

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I can agree with this decision. However, this does raise a question for me. Namely: what is the OU Council planning for the future of OU? The majority of the people, agree that OU is incredibly centralized and unbalanced right now. Most importantly, it's just not fun to play or watch. As I see it there were only a few Pokémon worthy of suspecting which are:

 

- Heracross: which isn't deemed banworthy with Pokémon like Gyarados, Gengar, Weezing, Skarmory and Arcanine countering/checking it fairly well and being really common in OU.

- Metagross: which isn't deemed banworthy as the CB set is easily walled and the other sets lack raw power. Metagross is also checked/countered by a lot of Heracross' checks and counters.

- Dugtrio: which isn't deemed banworthy as yes it is uncompetitive but it doesn't have a negative impact on the metagame. In fact it checks a lot of the S rank threats.

- Snorlax: which is like on the brink of being banned but doesn't quite make the cut.

 

Other than these four Pokémon there is nothing in the OU metagame right now that can be remotely considered for a suspect. And seeing as these four Pokémon don't meet our 'current' uber characteristics, what is the council planning on doing? Nothing? Hoping that we get gen IV moves soon? Are we going to be playing with a broken OU metagame for possibly another half year - year? Is the Council planning on unbanning something like Tyranitar with complex bans on it or are we going to see a Snorlax + Blissey suspect? What I'm trying to say is: something needs to be done in OU right now. And with the ban criteria we have right now, the council won't be able to do anything.

I've been thinking about this issue, and my current answer is "kek idk". So, you know, working on it.

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Namely: what is the OU Council planning for the future of OU? The majority of the people, agree that OU is incredibly centralized and unbalanced right now.

 

Mfw everyone's like "yeah lets bring Snorlax back" and then OU is horribly centralized/boring again. 

 

I'd say that out of the options we have, banning Snorlax is the only option that's worthy of consideration, which should be a starting place. It's pretty clear that the current OU landscape leaves almost no room for innovation - and that's not a hallmark of a good metagame.

 

What I'm trying to say is: something needs to be done in OU right now. And with the ban criteria we have right now, the council won't be able to do anything.

 

Well, the OU council is famous for undoing decisions, particularly about Snorlax  :)

Edited by Robofiend
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  • 4 weeks later...

As evident in the Suspect Test thread of Snorlax and Blissey, viability of Special Defense walls is limited with the presence of these two behemoths. The unfortunate side to banning Snorlax and Blissey though, is the significant waves that will spread throughout the tier. We are already discussing the necessity of banning Gengar if this becomes the case.

 

A counter argument to potentially banning Snorlax and Blissey, or even banning Gengar in a meta without Snorlax and Blissey, would be simply to ban Dugtrio. Now before you roll your eyes, hear me out.

 

Dugtrio is very effective at eliminating Special Walls, which allows for Special Sweepers to do their thing. Special Walls that fall to various Dugtrio sets include Blissey, Snorlax, Umbreon, Lanturn, Porygon2, and Tentacruel, which is a great defense against rain teams.  

 

Unfortunately though, aside from Special Walls, it also attacks anything with low health that it can trap. This list includes Ursaring, DusclopsGardevoir, Scizor, Metagross, and Starmie, all of which provide excellent special resistances and/or defense, and also have the potential to be top threats in this game if they aren't already. It can also outright kill Aggron, Rhydon, and Heracross, all of which can check or hard-counter Curselax. Even Jolteon doesn't stand a chance if you have just a wee bit of HP investment.  

 

Team building becomes restricted by the mere presence of Dugtrio. While it's usage may not be as high as one would assume, chalk that up to an innate fear of DD Gyarados, I still choose not to run diverse Special Walls like Lanturn, Umbreon, or Porygon2, and I fear running Curselax counters like Aggron or Rhydon because of Dugtrio as well. Could Curselax be made into a healthy addition to our meta if we removed Dugtrio and freed counters like Aggron and Rhydon? Possibly. 

 

Without Dugtrio, I can view the OU meta becoming more diverse and ultimately much healthier. This is something I hope you all would consider as tier council members. 

 

tl;dr Dugtrio limits team building and decreases the viability of numerous special walls, physical walls, special sweepers, and physical sweepers without even requiring usage greater than 10%. In my opinion, it is unhealthy for our metagame and would be a proper ban. 

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JJ let's not kid ourselves. You're not going to run different Spdef walls than Lax or Blissey is Duggtrio gets the boot. Quite the opposite these Mons would be even more safe. Rhydon can even beat Trio with Rock Blast cauz it needs to Sub to even though some damage to Rhydon. It can only come in on Aggron if Aggron isn't behind a sub and because Aggron can almost always get a free sub on the thins it switches into it makes it harder to revenge.

 

Anyway:

 

Where does 'normal' discussion of Pokémon take place, seeing as all discussion threads got locked while they could still be used to discuss the pokemon in general.

 

edit:

Requesting suspect test on Dugtrio under the Supportive characteristic and also the uncompetitive criteria. Dugtrio has been a controversial Pokémon. Arena Trap completely takes away choice from the player and it effortlessly gets rid of things like Metagross, Heracross and even weakened Gengar with Pursuit. Dugtrio also brings centralization to the metagame as Levitaters and Flying typed Pokémon are not afraid to get trapped. Dugtrio however can mostly only come in when something died although sometimes the price of getting rid of your opponent's Metagross/Snorlax/Blissey/etc far outweigh the loss of a more 'irrelevant' Pokémon (if you deduct that based on team match up).

 

 

 

The OU Council has spent some time discussing the suggestion put forward about Dugtrio, I will summarise the points that they brought forward regarding it.

The council felt that there was no need for opening a new discussion thread because everything that could be said about Dugtrio had occurred in the previous discussion thread. Instead they decided to tackle the issue of a Dugtrio suspect test. While the council agrees that Dugtrio has certain uncompetitive aspects, this does not necessarily equate to it being ban worthy. The council felt that despite Dugtrio’s uncompetitive characteristics, it can still positively impact the OU meta by encouraging careful gameplay and also posing as a threat to the most used Pokemon in the tier without negatively impacting their usage.

They felt that Dugtrio does not play as big a threat as it used to pre-update, where special attackers were by far the most widely used and threatening aspect of OU. Before Dugtrio was a dangerous support Pokemon that would trap and kill a Pokemon to allow another to sweep through an opponent’s team easily. The rise of physical teams has negated the use for Dugtrio as they are not reliant on it like the previously popular special teams. Pokemon like Metagross and Swampert have contributed to the nerf of special attackers and Dugtrio is no longer an essential must have on teams to take out special walls. They argued that “Subtrio” was a thing of the past but that Choice Band Dugtrio still makes for a worthy revenge killer- however it comes with added flaws, such as being able to be trapped itself.

 

To quote Senile from the Council PM;

Physical teams are now onpar, if not better than Special teams, while being much more consistent because they don't rely on 1 fragile, prediction based pokemon like Dugtrio. Dugtrio was banned because Dugtrio + Special attacker teams were a dominant and powerful playstyle, but now it's hardly even viable in comparison to better team compositions. Whereas Dugtrio used to be a key supporter, he's now just a powerful revenge killer, not a keystone in a godly, uncompetitive archetype.”

 

To quote Robofiend from the Council PM;

CB Dugtrio's another story, but, like Senile, I think it's ultimately kind of a force for good. It can be used to take out Heracross, but can also fall to Sub/SD or Endure sets. It can revenge kill Metagross, but dies to one Meteor Mash and can't take Meta at full health. It traps weakened or sleeping Snorlax, providing a rare check to its otherwise almost complete dominance. It's definitely uncompetitive, but people want to cast it as unhealthy for an evolving metagame, which I just don't see. Dugtrio is a frail, semi-reliable and relatively weak revenge killer trying to swim in a sea of offensive superthreats like Heracross and Snorlax and it just can't abuse prediction as well as it used to be able to. As with the Sub set, it struggles to find easy double swaps with fewer special attackers around. Lastly, other top threats like Gengar, Weezing, Skarmory, Arcanine, Slowbro and Gyarados laugh at Dugtrio - making it more likely that you'll have a hole in your team when you use it and end up paying a price for using it, when you could just rely on another pokemon to support your team.

 

To quote BurntZebra from the Council PM;

Another thing before split, users of dugtrio weren't as punished after they trapped something, but now there's an improved moveset drum zard, gyarados with actual coverage moves, dragon dance kingdra, all of which weren't really prevalent before the split. I've seen many people get swept by gyarados after their dugtrio traps snorlax since special attackers have a hard time vs gyarados, and usually rely on preventing gyarados from switching in, in order to prevent it from sweeping.”

 

After taking the above into account the consensus on the council was that Dugtrio will not be suspect tested and will remain in OU.

 

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But is it really fruitous to have a poke like this even present in the meta game? It's not healthy for your opponent nor is it healthy for you considering the potential repercussions. Nevertheless, I love lanturn in ou and use it whenever I get the chance. Even with curselax present. It's a challenging poke to work around and puts a lot of pressure on your opponent.

With volt absorb it stops jolt cold, puts starmie at a disadvantage, and gives gengar trouble. With toxic it burdens other walls and protects itself with Heal bell.

I digress though, if the council wishes not to look at the many positives behind a dugtrio ban then I guess that is nothing more to do for me but play whatever meta they design.

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Every ban makes other pokemon more viable. That Dugtrio brings Pokemon like Lanturn free is irrelevant even if you like to use it. So would a ban of Blissey make strong Sattackers more viable etc. Dugtrio simply isn't a problem in the meta with Lax and Blissey it can't even be considered unhealthy with the usage it had.

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Every ban makes other pokemon more viable. That Dugtrio brings Pokemon like Lanturn free is irrelevant even if you like to use it. So would a ban of Blissey make strong Sattackers more viable etc. Dugtrio simply isn't a problem in the meta with Lax and Blissey it can't even be considered unhealthy with the usage it had.


We've banned things with less usage in the past so that shouldn't be a relevant argument. Nevertheless you understand the effect dugtrio has and it's just a shame we don't share the same opinion.
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We've banned things with less usage in the past so that shouldn't be a relevant argument. Nevertheless you understand the effect dugtrio has and it's just a shame we don't share the same opinion.

I'm not actually sure we have banned things with less usage in the past, but if we have, that doesn't necessarily mean we should have. Usage is relevant; If something isn't being used, it shouldn't be banned, regardless of whether it's banworthy or not. See: Baton Pass Gens 2-5. Nothing was done about it during those gens because nobody used Baton Pass, because if you used Baton Pass you were an asshole/shitkid. However, now they're discussing adding restrictions to Baton Pass for these generations, and some have already been put in place (yes, the Smeargle+Ingrain ban from Gen 3 was a decision made long after Gen 3 had passed by, due to people using Baton Pass in tournaments that included gen 3). Baton Pass wasn't banned because it wasn't uncompetitive cancer before recently, it's just that nobody was enough of an asshole to abuse it until recently, forcing restrictions to be put in place in previous gens, something which typically just doesn't happen.

 

Likewise, until something becomes a problem, it probably shouldn't be banned. Why would we waste our time, especially with the time limits in between bans, banning things that aren't a problem anyway? All it does is pointlessly extend the banlist and push aside bigger, more current issues for later, all to deal with a problem which is hardly relevant.

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Likewise, until something becomes a problem, it probably shouldn't be banned. Why would we waste our time, especially with the time limits in between bans, banning things that aren't a problem anyway? All it does is pointlessly extend the banlist and push aside bigger, more current issues for later, all to deal with a problem which is hardly relevant.

 

But you do recognize it as a problem. Nevertheless, what negative repercussions would arise from a Dugtrio ban? I see none, while I can see multiple benefits that I've stated before, which includes better defense against Gengar with a safer environment for special walls. 

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But you do recognize it as a problem. Nevertheless, what negative repercussions would arise from a Dugtrio ban? I see none, while I can see multiple benefits that I've stated before, which includes better defense against Gengar with a safer environment for special walls. 

I don't think Dugtrio is a big problem at all right now, if it's a problem at all. It's not being used massively, and I think Dugtrio's existence has pretty much little to nil relevance to Gengar's power in the Lax/Blissey-less metagame. If the change is permanent, Gengar would without a doubt be the first thing looked at/potentially banned, not Dugtrio.

 

As for "what negative repercussions would arise from a dugtrio ban", we don't ban things just because "well nothing BAD will happen if we do!", we ban them if they're banworthy. You can't know for sure how banning something affects a tier, you can't just go around saying "Ban this, nothing bad will happen anyway; if anything, it'll probably be good!"; It's not a question of that, because of the uncertainty that lies in the statement like that as well as the subjectivity around such a statement, which is why we have ban criteria. If you want to get Dugtrio banned, try a different venue, and if you don't want to try a different venue, then wait to see if the change is permanent, and if it is, wait to see how Gengar is dealt with, and once all that is done, then it's probably time that we can re-evaluate Dugtrio. Until then, our prior statement regarding Dugtrio still stands, and based on current data and just our impressions of OU, Dugtrio is the least of our concerns.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 8 months later...

Discussion request on a meta reset. The tier council is fully staffed, staff are active, and the game was recently introduced to two items that can alter the meta drastically and offer options to handle some of the more overpowering threats like lax, bliss, tar, and the dragons.

If there was a time it would be now. The only reason not to do this is if devs are planning to drop the legendaries soonish. In which case they should work with the tier council on a timeline to ensure the correct path is forged for the comp community.

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The only reason not to do this is if devs are planning to drop the legendaries soonish. In which case they should work with the tier council on a timeline to ensure the correct path is forged for the comp community.

Make sure the tier councel isnt the only group with this knowlege if thats the case lol Edited by bigbangattack
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I would like to see how Starmie will be with the sp atk boost (50%). With amazing stat's and movepool I think that it will be to good not to use. Has a small chance to 4HKO's Chansey when Chansey can't do much other then taking hits and use softboiled.

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I would like to see how Starmie will be with the sp atk boost (50%). With amazing stat's and movepool I think that it will be to good not to use. Has a small chance to 4HKO's Chansey when Chansey can't do much other then taking hits and use softboiled.

if you cant 2hko chansey, then chansey beats you lol

 

slight generalization, obviously there are exceptions, but even specs wont get starmie past the pink blob

Edited by Gunthug
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I would like to see how Starmie will be with the sp atk boost (50%). With amazing stat's and movepool I think that it will be to good not to use. Has a small chance to 4HKO's Chansey when Chansey can't do much other then taking hits and use softboiled.

 

This move also makes the tier extremely offensive, which means you'll find a Machamp with Tpunch suddenly outspeeding Starmie, along with things like Venusaur, Ludicolo, etc etc. There are a lot of risks that we really can't predict at this point. 

 

This new meta needs to be assessed and see where the PokeMMO collective goes with their creativity and playstyles. 

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Most importantly, I think someone *cough Darkshade* should communicate to the tier council the Developers' intentions in terms of adding new items. If we get no more items in the next 12 months, tiering should reset. If something like life orb/assault vest are planned within a few months, there is no point tiering again. Also some balancing should be discussed, the creep introduced with these 2 new choice items might warrant the need for:

-gen 4 sturdy

-stealth rock

-team preview

 

These things should be discussed first and foremost, pls make it good guys.

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I'm opposed to a tier reset for two reasons:

  1. Without defensive items, offense will only get buffed by a reset. Thought Tyranitar was scary with only DD and Choice Band? Now you have to worry about Scarftar. If we get Life Orb, then this problem will only increase, as mixed sets will become ultra-viable as well. Even defensive items (Assault Vest, Eviolite) would do little to mitigate the Dragons/Pseudo-Legends/Gengar's ability to tear through the game, as we lack pokemon to abuse it (LF PorygonZ for Eviolite P2).
  2. With more changes coming (I'm betting new/updated moves would be next), a reset would throw the lower tiers into a cycle of instability for a long time.

The way I see it, offensive items like Scarf and Specs are cool, but it's not like they're going to cut into Dragonite's ability to straight up crush the tier with Dragonspam or Gengar's deadly versatility - in fact, they'd only serve to enhance it and make these pokemon even more centralizing than they were before. The way I see it, these changes aren't going to change anything in particular, they're just going to make some lower-tier pokemon potentially banworthy.

 

The chage does give me some hope though - if moves from 4th Gen were also added/updated, pokes like Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar would fear Focus Blast, Bullet Punch Scizor and other threats even more and Gengar might become less of a menace because of the addition of Scarf. But as of now, I think the requests for a reset are premature given the likely effects of these new items.

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I'm opposed to a tier reset for two reasons:

  1. Without defensive items, offense will only get buffed by a reset. Thought Tyranitar was scary with only DD and Choice Band? Now you have to worry about Scarftar. If we get Life Orb, then this problem will only increase, as mixed sets will become ultra-viable as well. Even defensive items (Assault Vest, Eviolite) would do little to mitigate the Dragons/Pseudo-Legends/Gengar's ability to tear through the game, as we lack pokemon to abuse it (LF PorygonZ for Eviolite P2).
  2. With more changes coming (I'm betting new/updated moves would be next), a reset would throw the lower tiers into a cycle of instability for a long time.

 

 

I find tyranitar to be less scary now to be perfectly honest so I disagree.

 

Its CB sets werent unbeatable, it was the DD sets that got it banned out... and now that a huge amount of the meta can now outspeed a +1 ttar and KO it before it can do anything is reason that it should be brought back imo.  Scarf gives T-tar way more counter play

 

Theorying on new items/moves is also a bit redundant, we dont know that they are coming and we probably wont until they get here... knowing the Devs this could either be in two weeks or 4 months, you cant leave the tiers as they are for that long given the changes that have happened... instability is always a part of a changing meta and u cant just not accept it because new things might be coming

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