UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Maelstrom]

Why is it bad for uu?

[gbwead]

9 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Why is it bad for uu?

Imo, Ninetales is an anti meta pokemon. Unlike the Houndoom UU meta or the Typhlosion UU meta, the current UU tier doesn't have incredibly viable fire types pokemons. For this reason, people don't bother preparing to face something like Ninetales that will surely catch some people off guard.

[BlackJovi]

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Imo, Ninetales is an anti meta pokemon. Unlike the Houndoom UU meta or the Typhlosion UU meta, the current UU tier doesn't have incredibly viable fire types pokemons. For this reason, people don't bother preparing to face something like Ninetales that will surely catch some people off guard.

Would you be mad if I swept you with one next time we fight since you won't be prepared? 

[SweeTforU]

Tier List update December 2016 when

[LifeStyle]

LF Drought Nasty Plot Ninetales

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, SweeTforU said:

Tier List update December 2016 when

It should be this weekend or monday.

[gbwead]

Sry double posting :/
This is a rare situation where there is a big delay between the moment the usage is posted and the moment usage changes are definitive, so feel free to give your input about the potential usage movements. Some of you might have noticed that Rhydon went below the 4.36% cut-off point this month and could be moved down to UU for this reason. Do you guys think Rhydon would fit well in the current UU tier? If Kanga gets unbanned, would that change something regarding Rhydon theorical viability in UU? 

[LifeStyle]

2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Sry double posting :/
This is a rare situation where there is a big delay between the moment the usage is posted and the moment usage changes are definitive, so feel free to give your input about the potential usage movements. Some of you might have noticed that Rhydon went below the 4.36% cut-off point this month and could be moved down to UU for this reason. Do you guys think Rhydon would fit well in the current UU tier? If Kanga gets unbanned, would that change something regarding Rhydon theorical viability in UU? 

Wasn't Rhydon BL or am I confusing with something else

[BlackJovi]

Well, im just gonna get prepared for the new uu meta with kanga + meganium, just like ou with lax there, we saw rhydons + milotic every fucking game. Gonne be disgusting! 

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, LifeStyle said:

Wasn't Rhydon BL or am I confusing with something else

That was before the reset. It is no longer BL.

Edited December 6, 2016 by gbwead

[LifeStyle]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

That was before the reset. It is no longer BL.

Well idk tbh, CB with Rock Blast+EQ+Megahorn still looks scary af imo

[BlackJovi]

Kek, rhydon gonna be ou in a month again. Loving the tiering system. 

[gbwead]

Several things have changed since that time when Rhydon was UU: Sturdy Pokes, Switch Choice Band, Life Ball, no Breloom in UU, Scizor not Banned, Meganium as a new ground resistance, Exeggutor as a more viable ground resistance without Houndoom in the tier and more special offense in general, Are Miltank, Altaria and potentially defensive Kangashkan too viable? Do we need Rhydon to deal with them with more ease? 

I personally think Rhydon would be a problematic powerhouse to deal with and I don't think it would fit well in the tier. I do hesitate tho.

[Toast]

7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Several things have changed since that time when Rhydon was UU: Sturdy Pokes, Switch Choice Band, Life Ball, no Breloom in UU, Scizor not Banned, Meganium as a new ground resistance, Exeggutor as a more viable ground resistance without Houndoom in the tier and more special offense in general, Are Miltank, Altaria and potentially defensive Kangashkan too viable? Do we need Rhydon to deal with them with more ease? 

I personally think Rhydon would be a problematic powerhouse to deal with and I don't think it would fit well in the tier. I do hesitate tho.

i wouldn't even consider meganium/exegg as definite counters to rhydon because of megahorn. life ball probably makes rhydon a lot more scarier since it doesn't have to be locked into a CB. SD/LO with EQ/RB/mega seems pretty op. UU couldn't really handle it back when it was, don't see any reason to bring it back

[LifeStyle]

Sooooo is Nidoking going back to UU?

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Toast said:

i wouldn't even consider meganium/exegg as definite counters to rhydon because of megahorn. life ball probably makes rhydon a lot more scarier since it doesn't have to be locked into a CB. SD/LO with EQ/RB/mega seems pretty op. UU couldn't really handle it back when it was, don't see any reason to bring it back

Ya that was always the main issue with Rhydon, it never had a real counter.

 

1 minute ago, LifeStyle said:

Sooooo is Nidoking going back to UU?

Yes, it went over 4.36% in UU.

Edited December 6, 2016 by gbwead

[RysPicz]

This would be fourth time (or third, I'm actually not sure) that Rhydon is getting into UU and it would be another time it would be claimed as OP. I'm glad @gbwead raised that discussion, because this time we actually do have an opportunity to voice ourselves before anything is done (see: Sceptile and Kanga).

At that time- which was in September 2015- when Rhydon was UU, I made 2 quite elaborate posts about why I see it as OP. I'll allow myself to bring the most important one back, because not much has changed since then:

Rhydon in UU was claimed 2 times as offensive uber in the past. In terms of defensive metagame, we run exactly same walls we did over a year ago with addition of Meganium which still does not stop Rhydon at all, unless it's a weird physical one with Bullet Seed (lol). Rhydon has no counters at all in UU and it does have a lot of switch-ins due to it's physical bulk and typing. Physical Normal-type attacks or any resisted cb/ scarf (or neutral sometimes) would disappear from the tier once again.

If someone is interested how a UU metagame looks like with Rhydon, I have linked the previous discussion thread for those who would want some lecture.

 

Do not bring Rhydon to UU.

 

E:

And pls, delete Zangoose from UU in the tier list thread @Bluejim ^^

 

E2:

After seeing usage tables, I'm unsure about bringing back Kangaskhan. We have UU which is finally a balanced tier with all kinds of playstyles being viable and no pokes being over the top with usage. As for me, it's an enjoyable tier, maybe populated by spanish-speaking stall players (who tend to cuss me a lot in normal chat after getting beat), but I find it really enjoyable- definietly more than OU which really needs re-balancing with new pokemons. 3.5 year I'm playing this game and waiting for legendary dungeons, eh...

Edited December 6, 2016 by RysPicz

[gbwead]

28 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

 

Damn, I though the Snorlax thread was cancer, I guess I have a short memory xD

[OrangeManiac]

Eh, hi. It's me again. Should Rhydon be brought down because of the implementation of Sturdy ability? No. Should Rhydon be brought down for a better and interesting metagame? Yes. The thing is with current tiering policies which gives much bigger emphasis on the number of counters to a Pokemon has over the overall sweeping capability we're gonna continue to have the UU tier we have now: Full of the same wallcores over and over again, which UU has had more or less for 2 years now. I'm probably gonna get called out by my lack of creativity again in terms of wallbreaking but just looking at the usage board, I don't think there's any way of disputing how this isn't the case. Men lie, women lie but numbers won't lie.

 

Don't wanna go all Smogon on you, but meet Rampardos. This is a Pokemon with 165 Attack, Rock-type, Sheer Force or Mold Breaker ability (two of the best in Gen6), access to sufficient amount of coverage moves, access to Rock Polish. Meanwhile all of its other stats are sub-par. This Pokemon has barely any reliable counters in the OU tier. Considering the amazing coverage and power of Sheer Force Rock Slide, switching against this Pokemon feels pretty impossible. Well, what is the tier of this uncounterable beast? Ubers? OU? BL?

 

No, it is PU. Literally on the worst tier of the whole generation's metagame. Despite the reason this Pokemon is impossible to counter its low speed and numerous of weaknesses prevent it from making it to anyone's team ever. The overall sweeping capability is lacking hard and often does not get a hit off against sweeper based team. I know you are tired of me bringing up usage as a constant topic here but when you actually let usage to demonstrate Pokemon's effectiveness this is exactly what can happen. The uncounterable monsters may in fact be utter shit in overall viability against unknown teams and not worth of your teamslot when you take a look at other aspects than the lack of counterability. I feel as majority of BL1 Pokemon turned BL1 as not for their overall sweeping capability but the fact they didn't get reliably walled. This is what I had problem with Goose as well, a Pokemon was getting banned as probably the 10-15th most used Pokemon in the tier. 

 

Rhydon reminds me a lot for Rampardos. If everyone keeps stalling, you know it's gonna be scary. If people don't know what they're gonna face in UU match - they might not even bring this Pokemon in their team.

[LuisPocho]

32 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

E2:

 maybe populated by spanish-speaking stall players (who tend to cuss me a lot in normal chat after getting beat)

 I love that tension between spanish wall teams and the speed-is-better-than-attack north teams

[RysPicz]

10 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Eh, hi. It's me again. Should Rhydon be brought down because of the implementation of Sturdy ability? No. Should Rhydon be brought down for a better and interesting metagame? Yes. The thing is with current tiering policies which gives much bigger emphasis on the number of counters to a Pokemon has over the overall sweeping capability we're gonna continue to have the UU tier we have now: Full of the same wallcores over and over again, which UU has had more or less for 2 years now. I'm probably gonna get called out by my lack of creativity again in terms of wallbreaking but just looking at the usage board, I don't think there's any way of disputing how this isn't the case. Men lie, women lie but numbers won't lie.

 

Don't wanna go all Smogon on you, but meet Rampardos. This is a Pokemon with 165 Attack, Rock-type, Sheer Force or Mold Breaker ability (two of the best in Gen6), access to sufficient amount of coverage moves, access to Rock Polish. Meanwhile all of its other stats are sub-par. This Pokemon has barely any reliable counters in the OU tier. Considering the amazing coverage and power of Sheer Force Rock Slide, switching against this Pokemon feels pretty impossible. Well, what is the tier of this uncounterable beast? Ubers? OU? BL?

 

No, it is PU. Literally on the worst tier of the whole generation's metagame. Despite the reason this Pokemon is impossible to counter its low speed and numerous of weaknesses prevent it from making it to anyone's team ever. The overall sweeping capability is lacking hard and often does not get a hit off against sweeper based team. I know you are tired of me bringing up usage as a constant topic here but when you actually let usage to demonstrate Pokemon's effectiveness this is exactly what can happen. The uncounterable monsters may in fact be utter shit in overall viability against unknown teams and not worth of your teamslot when you take a look at other aspects than the lack of counterability. I feel as majority of BL1 Pokemon turned BL1 as not for their overall sweeping capability but the fact they didn't get reliably walled. This is what I had problem with Goose as well, a Pokemon was getting banned as probably the 10-15th most used Pokemon in the tier. 

 

Rhydon reminds me a lot for Rampardos. If everyone keeps stalling, you know it's gonna be scary. If people don't know what they're gonna face in UU match - they might not even bring this Pokemon in their team.

Hi! I'm glad you're back ;) I also played some PU on showdown, it wasn't yesterday but I think I played it a sufficient amount of time to have a reasonable amount of experience (I hope...).

But you cannot compare Rampardos' situation and Rhydon's. These are 2 completly different pokemons in 2 completly different metagames with absolutely different mechanics, and most importantly, team preview. When you see enemy has a Rampardos, you will know how to use your team to play around it. In our game, you cannot see your opponet carrying a Rhydon. I remember I was carrying with me an incredibly annoying Prankster Meowstic which was often paralyzing enemy's offensive threat which sometimes happened to be a Rampardos. Let's also not forget about Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rocks which effectively cut Rampardos' longevity.

To put it short: Gen6 does have a huge amount of tools to effectively shut down Rampardos, ranging from prankster, through team preview, to entry hazards (and some priority moves which are not available in MMO yet, like Aqua Jet or Sucker Punch).

Our PokeMMO UU metagame merely has any tools to shut down Rhydon. On top of my mind I can only think of a mild HP grass/ water Diglett (are you proud, gb?) or a physically-bulky Meganium with -satk nature, running Bullet Seed.

The fact that one pokemon is in a low tier in a completly different metagame does not reflect that it's seemingly similar counterpart should be higher in ours

[DoubleJ]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Sry double posting :/
This is a rare situation where there is a big delay between the moment the usage is posted and the moment usage changes are definitive, so feel free to give your input about the potential usage movements. Some of you might have noticed that Rhydon went below the 4.36% cut-off point this month and could be moved down to UU for this reason. Do you guys think Rhydon would fit well in the current UU tier? If Kanga gets unbanned, would that change something regarding Rhydon theorical viability in UU? 

Without Kanga, that is theoretically one less poke that Rhydon can safely come in on, but thinking this through I still don't think Rhydon should pass through the curtain. It's been banned for being an "offensive uber" before, so no reason to unban. Meganium is literally the only safe switch on Rhydon in UU, but if it has any damage, like anything, and comes in on Megahorn or 5x Rock Blast, it's probably @Toast. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 162-192 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 125-155 (66.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

#keeprhydonbannedorzebrawillriot

 

[OrangeManiac]

6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Hi! I'm glad you're back ;) I also played some PU on showdown, it wasn't yesterday but I think I played it a sufficient amount of time to have a reasonable amount of experience (I hope...).

But you cannot compare Rampardos' situation and Rhydon's. These are 2 completly different pokemons in 2 completly different metagames with absolutely different mechanics, and most importantly, team preview. When you see enemy has a Rampardos, you will know how to use your team to play around it. In our game, you cannot see your opponet carrying a Rhydon. I remember I was carrying with me an incredibly annoying Prankster Meowstic which was often paralyzing enemy's offensive threat which sometimes happened to be a Rampardos. Let's also not forget about Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rocks which effectively cut Rampardos' longevity.

To put it short: Gen6 does have a huge amount of tools to effectively shut down Rampardos, ranging from prankster, through team preview, to entry hazards (and some priority moves which are not available in MMO yet, like Aqua Jet or Sucker Punch).

Our PokeMMO UU metagame merely has any tools to shut down Rhydon. On top of my mind I can only think of a mild HP grass/ water Diglett (are you proud, gb?) or a physically-bulky Meganium with -satk nature, running Bullet Seed.

The fact that one pokemon is in a low tier in a completly different metagame does not reflect that it's seemingly similar counterpart should be higher in ours

 

I wasn't saying "hurr durr Rampardos is PU in gen6 so Rhydon should be UU in MMO". I'm aware these are two completely different metagames, Team Preview matters etc.

 

I was using it as an example of a Pokemon that is probably the definition of a wallbreaker but sucks as a sweeper and for that reason it sucks. And also little bit to point out there's so much difference in tiering philosophy. If Rhydon (or Rampardos) faces fast sweepers like Life Orb users, it either needs to be sacked or risk your next Pokemon to be in problems. Well, the thing is in MMO UU considering you will probably have a counter to that sweeper in your team (like Cradily for specsweepers and Scizor/Altaria/Slowking for phys sweepers) you probably are fairly likely to not lose your Rhydon or any other Pokemon even if your Rhydon faced a Life Orb sweeper, so that's different. Seeing wallcores + Rhydon wouldn't much really more diverse either.

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

#rebanrhydonorzebrawillriot

Ftfy. I agree tho.

 

19 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

(are you proud, gb?

Always.

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by gbwead

[Gunthug]

Rhydon is one of those pokemon that on paper, if we discuss it enough, we may convince ourselves that it deserves a test. Then it's tested and it just blows everything back with its raw power and coverage. I'll almost certainly be voting against testing it again, because I just don't think enough has changed from the last time it was tested, unless I'm thoroughly convinced otherwise. @OrangeManiac I see what you're saying with regards to rampardos, but I do think that the tiering philosophy you mention has shifted and developed along with (and really, because of) the new moves and mechanics of the new metagame, which we don't have