UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[RysPicz]

Is this the place where we can discuss Kangaskhan's potential comeback?

 

Oh and hi @SweeTforU

Edited November 22, 2016 by RysPicz

[SweeTforU]

Just now, RysPicz said:

Is this the place where we can discuss Kangaskhan's potential comeback?

 

Oh and hi @SweeTforU

Its a war.

[DaftCoolio]

6 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Is this the place where we can discuss Kangaskhan's potential comeback?

 

Oh and hi @SweeTforU

From memory I think most of that discussion was to be done here especially since it doesn't have its own thread.

[DoubleJ]

Bring back kanga. Nothing has really changed in uu. Special attackers still stopped dead by cradily and without haunter there hasn't been a rise in usage (no stats backing this) in any new special attackers like ebuzz, kadabra, rain dancers, etc. Manectric and LO Exegg are seeing a rise but that's not the diversity we were looking for since they were both still highly used. The tier imo is still pretty stall heavy too.

 

So what reason do we have to ban kanga permanently at this point?

[gbwead]

13 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

So what reason do we have to ban kanga permanently at this point?

Stall is now a more diversed playstyle without Kanga around, but not more or less viable. I also think we will see usage more evenly spread than before. The flaws of the current special UU walls are way more exploitable than the ones Kanga had which leads imo to a better tier dynamic.

[Arimanius]

51 minutes ago, gbwead said:

The flaws of the current special UU walls are way more exploitable than the ones Kanga had which leads imo to a better tier dynamic.

I feel this part is what is more true about the kanga test BUT still I feel like it's not enough to keep kanga banned.

[BlackJovi]

I miss using my offensive kanga tho

 

E: We can't all take the blame for the people who like to stall :/ 

Edited November 29, 2016 by BlackJovi

[RysPicz]

I really wanna see usage first before engaging into any kind of more complicated discussion. I sure do see how viable some pokes became and how Plume's and Altaria's viability dropped down because now there's less to absorb Toxic from Kanga. Plume is almost unseen lately, Altaria still is out there but mainly to stop Scizor and not to stall the shit out of Kangaskhan.

15 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Bring back kanga. Nothing has really changed in uu. Special attackers still stopped dead by cradily and without haunter there hasn't been a rise in usage (no stats backing this) in any new special attackers like ebuzz, kadabra, rain dancers, etc. Manectric and LO Exegg are seeing a rise but that's not the diversity we were looking for since they were both still highly used. The tier imo is still pretty stall heavy too.

 

So what reason do we have to ban kanga permanently at this point?

I agree about bringing back Kanga, but. Things did change in UU, a lot. We didn't even have a tier with Meganium and Kanga in it, our tiers are very dynamic but metagame is stale due to tiresome breeding. Things did change because like I mentioned, Plume isn't on every team right now to stall the shit out of Kangaskhan.

 

Cradily does not stop special attackers, Jynx and Lapras absolutely shit on it, so does Orb Exeggutor with Toxic. I belive there should be a spike in usage of the pokes I mentioned + possibly Omastar, since defensive version of spiker is getting pretty much replaced by either Specs or rainsweeper.

 

Tier is stall heavy not because of pokemons which are in it (or are not), but because of people who play it - we have a monstrous arsenal of offensive powerhouses in UU (Jynx, Armaldo, Absol, Omastar, Exeggutor, Crawdaunt, Hitmonlee, Azumarill to name a few). People just do not have cojones to run them, they prefer to stall the shit out of each other with toxic, constant switches and spikes. It will take time until they will realise that stall/ defense isn't the only- and definietly, not the best- way to win a battle.

 

E:

My apologies for a clustered post, my brain is somewhere else right now

Edited November 29, 2016 by RysPicz

[DoubleJ]

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Stall is now a more diversed playstyle without Kanga around, but not more or less viable. I also think we will see usage more evenly spread than before. The flaws of the current special UU walls are way more exploitable than the ones Kanga had which leads imo to a better tier dynamic.

I have to take a pop shot here, kanga was test banned to create balance in uu since the tier was too "stall heavy". You say with kanga gone, stall viability didn't change but it actually became easier and better to use now because it is more diverse. 

 

#stallwins

[gbwead]

8 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I have to take a pop shot here, kanga was test banned to create balance in uu since the tier was too "stall heavy".

 

If you look at the Kangaskhan test ban announcement, there is no mention of making the tier less "stall heavy". 

On 03/10/2016 at 6:28 PM, Tyrone said:

• [UU Discussion] Kangaskhan: Suspect Tested for one month.

Kangaskhan is receiving a suspect test ban for one month, as result of the unhealthy / over-centralization

For a more detailed explanation please read the spoiler below.
 

  Hide contents

 

After much discussion, Kangaskhan has been unanimously voted to be unhealthy for the metagame, and will therefore be test banned for ONE month to determine whether this is accurate.

 

Kangaskhan is unique in that it has many different roles that it is able to play, and play well. It is able to be a special wall, a fast sweeper, a bulky sweeper, and a wish passer. Sporting the extremely efficient normal typing, Kangaskhan only takes super effective hits on the special side from hidden power fighting, which is scarce in the UU meta. Kangaskhan has 2 methods of reliable recovery in rest and wish, rest being the preferred option in tangent with Early Bird (1 turn rests) allowing it to become a nifty status absorber. One turn sleep also prevents kanga from becoming set up bait. Because of this ability you cannot wear down this wall with toxic like you would with Quagsire, plus you cannot permanently cripple it with burn or paralysis as it cures the status at its leisure when it rests. While Altaria can do this as well with rest and natural cure, Kangaskhan has a great base attack stat of 95, meaning that it is able to threaten out the special sweepers that it walls with stab return or double-edge, earthquake or fire punch. Want to run a Scizor to take out Kangaskhan? Nope, Kangaskhan can outspeed you with little investment and packs 4x supper effective fire punch. Kangaskhan can also run Choice band sets or life orb sets in a more offensive manner. The natural bulk that it has with 105 80 80 defenses let it switch on or non stab attacks and because of base 90 speed, threaten out most threats with its massive move pool.

 

Because all of the versatility that Kangaskhan has, people have devoted multiple team slots for potential switch ins to Kangaskan and still not been able to completely neutralize it without using their own Kangaskhan. How much Kangaskhan dominates the UU tier is shown by the September usage. Kangaskhan reached 42.66% usage, and has been the most used Pokémon in the tier for months. Kangaskhan is a full 10% higher usage than the next most common Pokémon, Altaria.

 

It is no surprise that team building often starts with 1 of 2 things: Kangaskhan, or an answer to kangaskhan. For these reasons, we're going to test out a Kanga-less UU metagame for a month and see if it frees up the tier a little bit more, allowing for more creativity in team building and letting some other special walls/tanks get a chance to flourish. Please pay careful attention while building and playing in this meta, and feel free to post and discuss the changes in the UU Viability thread.

 

For all these reasons, the TC has decided to test ban Kangaskhan for one month.

13 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

You say with kanga gone, stall viability didn't change but it actually became easier and better to use now because it is more diverse. 

 

#stallwins

Kanga is/was the best stall pokemon in UU. Removing Kanga made non Kanga stalling easier and better, but that doesn't make stall more viable since stall lost the best stalling  pokemon available.

[DoubleJ]

37 minutes ago, gbwead said:

 

If you look at the Kangaskhan test ban announcement, there is no mention of making the tier less "stall heavy". 

Lol. Do you not realize that the entire write up described how great kanga is at stall? The entire second paragraph specifically. While not explicitly stated, making uu less reliant on stall was a part of this test ban.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

While not explicitly stated, making uu less reliant on stall was a part of this test ban.

What is explicitly stated is this:

On 03/10/2016 at 6:28 PM, Tyrone said:

For these reasons, we're going to test out a Kanga-less UU metagame for a month and see if it frees up the tier a little bit more, allowing for more creativity in team building and letting some other special walls/tanks get a chance to flourish.

The fact that Kanga was centralising as a stall pokemon doesn't mean the purpose of its ban was to make stall less viable. 

[DoubleJ]

8 minutes ago, gbwead said:

What is explicitly stated is this:

The fact that Kanga was centralising as a stall pokemon doesn't mean the purpose of its ban was to make stall less viable. 

Round and round you goooooooo

[epicdavenport]

......So how about hariyama back in UU?

[fredrichnietze]

Just now, epicdavenport said:

......So how about hariyama back in UU?

what actually counters it? with superpower/e punched for coverage, everything fears something hari can do with it's massive 120 base attack and 144/60/60 def's are enough to let it tank some hits. with guts and the large amounts of status in UU, harri can reliably come in and get a guts boost.

i was in the council when we banned it and that was when haunter was around to give harri reason to not spam fighting moves. nothing new now to stop it unless you are relying on meganium which btw

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Hariyama Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 172-204 (91.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 115-136 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Hariyama Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 115-136 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

[DoubleJ]

Hari just too stronk. CB + bulk too op.

[Flavawhat]

i think its time for an Exeggutor discussion.

This thing can sweep, tank, leech, sunnybeam, has dem stabs and a ridiculous high sp att to top it all off.

 

there doesn't seem to be all that much to stop it, or am i just missing something?

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by Flavawhat

[Thunderprime]

Might as well ban every sweeper from UU already then bring back kanga for a great new tier

[Arimanius]

3 hours ago, Flavawhat said:

i think its time for an Exeggutor discussion.

This thing can sweep, tank, leech, sunnybeam, has dem stabs and a ridiculous high sp att to top it all off.

 

there doesn't seem to be all that much to stop it, or am i just missing something?

 

well cradily can stall with some luck the special offensive variants but yeah a crit or a single drop from psychic and it's over, but there's absol who people don't realize how good it is, you need prediction tho and that's the hard part, but yeah I agree a discussion about it wouldn't hurt. I think it is the stronger special attacker in the tier right now

[gbwead]

Cradily, Hypno, Miltank Twave, Flareon, Ninetales, Xatu, Meganium Calm and several others should be able to prevent Exeggutor from sweeping or wallbreaking. I really don't see Exeggutor as a problem.

[Spaintakula]

Half of those can't completely wall a sunnybeam exegg, can they though?

 

Flareon/Xatu/Ninetales are the only ones that actually can out of those, and that is considering they're all fully specially invested.

 

 

[LifeStyle]

Did you guys not see me kill an Exeggutor with a Magnemite?

[gbwead]

4 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

Half of those can't completely wall a sunnybeam exegg, can they though?

 

Flareon/Xatu/Ninetales are the only ones that actually can out of those, and that is considering they're all fully specially invested.

Cradily, Hypno and Calm Meganium to some degree win against SunnyBeam Exegg.

 

Cradily has access to Mirror Coat that destroys SunnyBeam Exegg. Cradily can also simply spam Recover to stall the sun and, since SolarBeam Life Orb is the only move that does more than 50% to Cradily, Cradily has nothing to fear once the sun is gone.

 

Hypno Wish/Protect can stall the sun with ease and can kill a 70% Exeggutor with Signal Beam. Hypno doesn't even have to be calm to win, bold also works.

 

Special Wall Meganium loses maximum 75% from Hidden Power Fire LO Exeggutor when the sun is up. Synthesis is boosted to a 75% heal instead of 50% when the sun is up. Considering there are only 4 synthesis PP and that the dmg/recovery ratio is quite bad in this scenario, Meganium might struggle very fast which is why I would probably not play a Meganium like that, but it does wall SunnyBeam Exeggutor to some extant. I don't know if it is possible to find a Meganium moveset that can make Synthesis + Protect or Synthesis + Substitute work, but that would help Meganium deal with SunnyBeam Exegg a lot.

 

 

Other walling options:

Clefable can also do very well against Exeggutor SunnyBeam. It can stall the sun with Wish/Protect. It can Twave. It can Flamethrower. 

A Altaria/Scizor core should be unbreakable for a SunnyBeam Exegg.

Kecleon Thunder Wave also beats SunnyBeam Exeggutor. I am not making this up, I have really seen people play Kecleon in UU and it ain't that bad without Kanga in the tier.

 

There are a lot of gimmicks that also do extremely well against Exeggutor. Togetic with access to Wish/Protect, Thunder Wave and Signal Beam can stop Exeggutor very effectively. Togetic is probably not that great in UU, but it might have a niche; it can switch on Nidoqueen, Meganium, Vileplume, Tentacruel, Slowking, Exeggutor, Quagsire and Hypno. An easy Togetic switch means a potential Twave, Wish or Aromatherapy which can really hurt the momentum of an opponent. If you want to annoy Zebra, you might want to try Sandstorm Shuckle which could potentially beat Exeggutor xD. Camerupt takes a lot of damage from SolarBeam, but hey it survives and can OHKO with Flamethrower. Camerupt might not even be that bad in UU considering how well it counters Manectric right now. Specially defensive Rapidash when?

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by gbwead

[fredrichnietze]

im going to pop up and say hypno doesnt even need signal beam. wish/protect + literally anything that does damage or toxic is all it needs. psychic does next to nothing and wish stalling solar beam is easy unless you have serious damage. also a non defensive rapidash can tank anything and everything but psychic which is a possible 1hko but more likely a 2hko assuming 4hp vs life orb, and megahorn/any fire attack in sun and some without sun will kill victreebell.

[BlackJovi]

7 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

im going to pop up and say hypno doesnt even need signal beam. wish/protect + literally anything that does damage or toxic is all it needs. psychic does next to nothing and wish stalling solar beam is easy unless you have serious damage. also a non defensive rapidash can tank anything and everything but psychic which is a possible 1hko but more likely a 2hko assuming 4hp vs life orb, and megahorn/any fire attack in sun and some without sun will kill victreebell.

We're talking about exeggutor tho fred...