UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[RysPicz]

Only person able to pull a freaking Chimecho in UU is you, gb. Let's be real.

[LifeStyle]

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

What do you guys think of Chimecho in UU? Its movepool (Wish, Recover, Disable, Heal Bell, Trick, etc.) has always been amazing, but now with better defensive stats I feel Chimecho would be able to use these moves with more ease and control.

 

It seems to be a decent physical wall, especially considering how threathening Lee and Donphan can be:

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252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 80-95 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 75-89 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 104-126 (57.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Chimecho Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 128-152 (98.4 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

As a special wall, Chimecho could also have a nice niche imo. On top of being a decent switch against Exeggutor, Vileplume, Tentacruel and others, Chimecho still doesn't get OHKO by a banded Sneasel:

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252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 109-130 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 46-55 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 72-85 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 67-81 (36.8 - 44.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chimecho: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I would also not be surprised if it manages to pull off some nice cm sweeps/wallbreaks.

Can you not? I'm trynna build one for NU, don't need it to move up tybg

[gbwead]

29 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

Can you not? I'm trynna build one for NU, don't need it to move up tybg

In terms of physical bulk, Chimecho is more resistant than Hypno. Far better ability too.

[RysPicz]

Note down: prepare for Chimecho next time you face GB in UU.

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Note down: prepare for Chimecho next time you face GB in UU.

and defensive rapidash that you can find as a core in all my teams

[BurntZebra]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

What do you guys think of Chimecho in UU? Its movepool (Wish, Recover, Disable, Heal Bell, Trick, etc.) has always been amazing, but now with better defensive stats I feel Chimecho would be able to use these moves with more ease and control.

 

It seems to be a decent physical wall, especially considering how threathening Lee and Donphan can be:

  Hide contents

 

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 80-95 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 75-89 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 104-126 (57.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Chimecho Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 128-152 (98.4 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

As a special wall, Chimecho could also have a nice niche imo. On top of being a decent switch against Exeggutor, Vileplume, Tentacruel and others, Chimecho still doesn't get OHKO by a banded Sneasel:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 109-130 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 46-55 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 72-85 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 67-81 (36.8 - 44.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chimecho: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I would also not be surprised if it manages to pull off some nice cm sweeps/wallbreaks.

Although its physical defense is marginally better than hypno, hypno is pretty much always specially defensive now and is a lot more niche for taking on exeggutor or jynx, and altaria is a better option for taking on hitmonlee/donphan while also taking on scizor. I guess if you wanted a physically defensive wish pokemon and exeggutor isn't your style, then chimecho is a decent option. 

[DoubleJ]

@NikhilR used Chimecho first. 

[BurntZebra]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

@NikhilR used Chimecho first. 

I used one in the second NU tournament of hoenn, does that count or nah

[OrangeManiac]

The last 2 UU Tournament's finals have basically been decided by Cradily vs Miltank Curseduel. Is it just me or is there something really wrong about this.

[RysPicz]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

The last 2 UU Tournament's finals have basically been decided by Cradily vs Miltank Curseduel. Is it just me or is there something really wrong about this.

HEY I'M STILL PLAYING AND IT'S NOT DECIDED YET

[gbwead]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

The last 2 UU Tournament's finals have basically been decided by Cradily vs Miltank Curseduel. Is it just me or is there something really wrong about this.

Nothing wrong, it just comes down to match up in these rare cases.

[OrangeManiac]

Just now, gbwead said:

Nothing wrong, it just comes down to match up in these rare cases.

I run Cradily because it's overpowered as heck and I'd say every 3rd/4th match comes down to some kind of a Curse showdown. Looks pretty similar whenever I see someone running Cradily or Miltank. I wouldn't call them rare cases in any means.

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

I run Cradily because it's overpowered as heck and I'd say every 3rd/4th match comes down to some kind of a Curse showdown. Looks pretty similar whenever I see someone running Cradily or Miltank. I wouldn't call them rare cases in any means.

I don't think curse wars are that common, but we tend to remember them because of how long they last or how unfair the outcome may be.

[RysPicz]

30 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I don't think curse wars are that common

Belieb me, in most of UU tournaments I play I get pretty far. Curse wars are not common at all

[DoubleJ]

Haze... Roar... WW... maybe the game will remember these moves one day. 

[gbwead]

42 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Haze... Roar... WW... maybe the game will remember these moves one day. 

Roar and Whirlwind do not work against Cradily tho.

 

edit: UU Haze users do not gain anything by using Haze; with Rock Slide/Bullet Seed coverage, Cradily has a super effective move against all of them, except Tentacruel/Muk that lack instant recovery to justify trading their hit points for using Haze.

Edited December 31, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

25 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Roar and Whirlwind do not work against Cradily tho.

 

edit: UU Haze users do not gain anything by using Haze; with Rock Slide/Bullet Seed coverage, Cradily has a super effective move against all of them, except Tentacruel/Muk that lack instant recovery to justify trading their hit points for using Haze.

They do work against Cow. Regarding the SE coverage on all phasers, well that just sucks. We forgetting fat pig though. 

 

Edit: my b, fat pig can't haze. Arbok ftw? Lel

Edited December 31, 2016 by DoubleJ

[notmudkip0]

roar/WW gets Miltank, Haze gets both Miltank and Cradily. Options for haze users are limited, with most either being weak to one of Cradily's attacks, or they lack physical bulk. Tenta with some HP and defense invest + ice beam and haze prevents Cradily setup and sweep, but cannot do much damage in return. Crobat has taunt, haze, and super fang, which help break down Cradily. Crobat's rock weakness is an issue, needing high HP + some defense, which limits its damage output and speed. Altaria, while bulkier, would have to give up an important move for haze. Not so good.

For Cradily, you can curse war with it, or attack and hope for crits or other hax. Miltank doesn't seem as problematic, even though she is annoying.

 

[RysPicz]

Phazing in UU is simply unreliable and completly unviable as we do not have good users of those moves apart from Roar Altaria which sucks anyway because you cannot force away the main user of a setup move in UU which is Cradily. If you would actually actively play the tier or at least spectate it, you would know it.

 

Okay so. Miltank has few really hard counters. The most discussed set in here is the curse one, which gets absolutely shut down by Misdreavus. It has ( @OrangeManiac ) "bad odds" against Cradily as well. Aggron completly *shits* on it. Steelix laughs at it unless it's bad and doesn't have Rest, which it should in this tier. Scizor handles it really well, setting up SDance and striking very hard with Steel wing or Superpower (later on) for KO. Finally there's the god Shuckle which can absolutely screw it with it's absurd defenses, Toxic and Encore. And yes, Shuckle is really fucking viable in UU- I wonder why people don't use it more?

 

When everything else fails you can use powerful specs users like Exeggutor or Jynx to deal big damage with their STAB psychics (I think it's around 50% but I don't wanna calc because I'm not a cheater). With Scizor's and Cradily's popularity it has like 17% usage which isn't exactly low, considering the fact that Miltank also acts as a paralysis spreader and a cleric when using a curse set.

 

 

Cradily is a much different problem though, because it's counters are much more limited. It sure does still get shit on by Aggron and Scizor and it might also lose to Steelix, unless it's Rest set. It also can get obliterated by Jynx's single specs ice beam. But that's actually it. Look at the list of UU pokes. None of them can reliably Haze Cradily without taking massive damage and due to it's ability it cannot be roared out. I have figured this out already wayyy before when I started using Magnemite (aye 4f shaping the metagame) paired with it things like Sneasel and Cradily. Removing literally only reliable counter for Cradily (which is Scizor) from the enemy team is almost like a guaranteed win. Surely Cradily does not have much space around well built offensive teams and it does not appreciate status (once again, this is irrelevant if Cradily is Rest). Cradily is threatening only with Curse set though, I find the Toxic set lacking the ability to put immeadiate (and growing with time) offensive pressure and mixed set maybe dealing with Scizor but not dealing enough significant damage without Curse boosts. It's usage proves it's viability- almost 25%, compared to Miltank.

 

For quite a while I was thinking that actually Cradily is the reason why Scizor has such high usage and it might be partially true. But there are few other things we need to look at: Scizor stops Sneasel, Swellow, some Crawdaunts, Miltank and Quag + it can utilise a CB set to strike hard right off the bat or scarf to become a great weapon against offense, so it's not a one trick pony. Scizor is good on it's own.

Just a small digression but I felt like sharing it x)

 

I started analyzing further after Orange voiced his concerns to me in private about Cradily being hugely cancerous in UU in his opinion (along with Slowking and one more poke which I don't remember- it's 7am and I've been awake all night to watch UFC, forgive me Orange) and I would personally rank it as "A+" or even "S" because amount of matches I won thanks to Cradily's curse sweep is huge, both in PSL and in officials- just check my semis match in Drowzee's Wake Up Call. But does it warrant a discussion or ban? What would be the impact of Cradily leaving the tier? Is it actually powerful enough to get the boot? I'm honestly not convinced... not yet.

 

E:

Personal note @gbwead

Spoiler

On 25.12.2016 at 1:06 AM, RysPicz said:

Note down: prepare for Chimecho next time you face GB in UU.

 

I'm hugely disappointed you did not bring a Chimecho against me.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by RysPicz

[OrangeManiac]

Alright, here's a little bit of text wall from me so I put that in spoiler. And more so, because it's basically just overall analysis of the metagame more than actually suggesting something and I'll explain all of those why.

 

Spoiler

Everything that is wrong with UU Metagame, by Orange

 

A little prelude: Even though UU has some good traits in the metagame, these are the problems that in my eyes prevent UU to reach the level of competitiveness of OU and NU. I also do realize that this is entirely subjective; I once battled Zebra in OU and he considered that OU metagame doesn't have everything right at the current moment and I was really surprised about that because I personally consider current OU really good, probably the best OU this game has ever had. Meanwhile some people hate NU, while I find it the most diverse tier in PokeMMO. There's different things that make people enjoy different kinds of metagames but I'm explaining here now why I do not like the metagame of UU.

 

 

- The lack of viability of Choice Scarfers

 

Choice Scarf (or 'Swift Choice Band' if you're pleb) is the most exciting item of competitive Pokemon mindgames. Just because you have the higher speed stat than your opponent you cannot be sure your Pokemon will still get the first hit off and live this encounter. Playing your powerful sweepers safe from potential Scarf users is very often mandatory for you to save your match, and this will reduce the dominance of your sweepers because you cannot mindlessly spam your moves without at least taking a small scout moment to see what you are facing. The biggest problem however isn't the lack of mindgames in terms of speed stats what comes to UU metagame, but the fact how powerful the lack of Choice Scarf users will make the Life Orb sweeper Pokemon and they in my opinion are the most powerful looking Pokemon in every battle. Such Pokemon as Nidoking, Swellow, Absol, Sneasel (or ex-Zangoose). It is really hard if not impossible to switch in against these high firepower sweepers in the current metagame and it might be just impossible to stop them sweeping when your one dedicated counter is down.

 

What causes these Pokemon to appear so powerful in the battles? The fact that they never have to be scared of a slower Pokemon outspeeding them. And why isn't Choice Scarf users viable? I would argue this because you just have to use Life Orb offense to break the top tier defensive threats, and at least usage backs this up in my opinion. The highest used Pokemon of the UU tier are Scizor, Altaria, Tentacruel, Exeggcutor, Cradily and Slowking. If not being entirely walls, they have a really noticable defensive niche in the UU metagame. Barring Tentacruel, all of these Pokemon are very slow which makes Life Orb offense easily the best one to defeat the most used Pokemon in the tier. Meanwhile Scarf offense just does not have the power to beat the defensive UU threats.

 

The cycle of rock paper scissors kinda goes like this: Life Orb offense > Walls > Scarf offense > Life Orb offense. However, since basically every UU team runs some kind of defensive Pokemon while as whole wallcore teams are really popular people tend to play offensively with Life Balls and because other players will too - at worst they are at speed tie. And this is a massive problem as well. A vast majority of the duels I've played in UU in last week or two has come down to some sort of a speed tie (most common being Nidoking or Swellow).

 

 

- Curseduels

 

When I was pointing out that the finals of last 2 UU officials has been Curseduels, it's not so much the quantity that I am pointing out but more of the "stage" where it's happening. The 4 longest making players of last 2 UU Officials have considered a Curse-related strategy to be a winning strategy and in both of those battles the best way to save the situation seeing another person sending a Curseuser was to send your own. I find this very uncompetitive. Not only because the game has suddenly turned into a coin flip of who wins but the fact that the match before and after this is basically pointless. And no JJ, we have not forgotten Roar/WW or Haze exists - it's just that the best way in overall win % wise is to not run one and instead bring our own Curseuser. It's like Prisoner's dilemma where running Curse is equivalent for "betraying" your opponent. Haze just takes a precious moveslot and there simply isn't many viable Haze users, like OU's Milotic for example. Steel-types are the best Pokemon to shut down the most notorious Cursers in UU but you honestly can't overprotect them with all costs in order to be a winning player and whole metagame which revolves keeping your one counter against an uncompetitive strategy seems really unhealthy to me.

 

 

- The one dimensional metagame

 

Almost reminds me of old Chansey metagame. In the viable metagame there are walls and there are wallbreakers. No in between. (And a couple of viable spikers, of course.) This creates a very one dimensional way of battling and teambuilding and not something I consider very good. There is very little to no room to change in your team. Your every defensive Pokemon exists there for that one particular offensive threat and your offensive threats are built just to beat the defensive threats. The metagame doesn't evolve.

 

 

- Nidoking

 

By no means do not understand me wrong. I do not want this Pokemon banned but in the current state of the metagame, it is easily the hands down strongest Pokemon in the metagame and in my opinion explains the problems UU has the best. Nidoking currently causes insane havoc with its diverse movepool and strong (now even buffed) stats. This however goes in the first section. If the fast offense was actually viable Nidoking would either have a rough day or become a Scarf user, rendering it ineffective.  

 

- Solutions?

 

None. With our current tiering system which bases on valuing individual Pokemon the only Pokemon that have even a have chance of being considered Ubers are in my opinion Cradily and Nidoking. The removal of these two Pokemon however make nothing better. The whole problem remains in the defensive cores, which make the UU tier so one dimensional. There is no simple way out of this at with our current policies, nothing. I would personally push for some kind of a multi-ban in UU like it was done in the old CM Wars NU days to see how it goes but this would fuck up existing NU tier and our current tiering policies do not support this. If anything I would start to diversifying UU from the little from we can get and that is from discussing Cradily. Not only does this Pokemon have a serious amount of positive traits from it's defensive and offensive presence but it has very limited amount of counters and forces Curseduels in so many cases because it is the best overall winning play. It's hard to argue Cradily unhealthy, however as steel-types are naturally viable, they are not ran only due to Cradily. All in all, the complexities in UU tier are much further than just one Pokemon making the metagame better. I can already seeing a push for Nidoking discussions but I think you're looking at the wrong way if doing that in the current state of metagame. Men lie, woman lie, the numbers don't lie.

 

 

TL;DR

 

If you're reading only TL;DRs to get your opinions validated, there's something really wrong with you.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[gbwead]

Offense has great ways to deal with Curse Cradily with powerhouses like Hitmonlee, Scizor and Aggron in the tier like 4f mentioned.

 

Toxic should also be considered as a viable way to deal with Curse users since if they rely on Rest for recovery they will fail to wall special attacks properly:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 68-80 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 65.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 75-88 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Specs users also no longer need to lock themselves on Ice Beam to beat Cradily since usually stab moves that deal neutral dmg to Cradily are enough:

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 75-88 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

248 SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 73-87 (37.8 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Heavy Stall team that might not put enough pressure on Cradily for it to reveal whether it plays Rest or Recover can rely on Charm or Feather Dance to beat it. Nidoqueen Charm, Bellosom Charm and Altaria Feather Dance work quite well. I have tested Bellosom Charm as well as Altaria Feather Dance and it is not half bad. 

 

 

 

 

 

[gbwead]

13 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

- Nidoking

Spoiler

By no means do not understand me wrong. I do not want this Pokemon banned but in the current state of the metagame, it is easily the hands down strongest Pokemon in the metagame and in my opinion explains the problems UU has the best. Nidoking currently causes insane havoc with its diverse movepool and strong (now even buffed) stats. This however goes in the first section. If the fast offense was actually viable Nidoking would either have a rough day or become a Scarf user, rendering it ineffective.  

 

I am highly shocked by this statement. Nidoking got a 10 atk boost recently, so calling it already the strongest pokemon in the metagame is a very premature analysis imo. If you are talking about Nidoking even before the atk boost, in that case, I think you are just wrong; Nidoking became so unviable in UU at one point that it fell to NU by usage where even there it was not as impactful as people anticipated. 

 

17 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

- The one dimensional metagame

Spoiler

Almost reminds me of old Chansey metagame. In the viable metagame there are walls and there are wallbreakers. No in between. (And a couple of viable spikers, of course.) This creates a very one dimensional way of battling and teambuilding and not something I consider very good. There is very little to no room to change in your team. Your every defensive Pokemon exists there for that one particular offensive threat and your offensive threats are built just to beat the defensive threats. The metagame doesn't evolve.

 

 

I don't see UU like that at all. Crobat, Lanturn, Glalie, Muk, bulky Knock Off Tentacruel, Miltank to some degree and others would not qualify as walls or wallbreakers. They really are in between.

 

27 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

- The lack of viability of Choice Scarfers

Spoiler

 

Choice Scarf (or 'Swift Choice Band' if you're pleb) is the most exciting item of competitive Pokemon mindgames. Just because you have the higher speed stat than your opponent you cannot be sure your Pokemon will still get the first hit off and live this encounter. Playing your powerful sweepers safe from potential Scarf users is very often mandatory for you to save your match, and this will reduce the dominance of your sweepers because you cannot mindlessly spam your moves without at least taking a small scout moment to see what you are facing. The biggest problem however isn't the lack of mindgames in terms of speed stats what comes to UU metagame, but the fact how powerful the lack of Choice Scarf users will make the Life Orb sweeper Pokemon and they in my opinion are the most powerful looking Pokemon in every battle. Such Pokemon as Nidoking, Swellow, Absol, Sneasel (or ex-Zangoose). It is really hard if not impossible to switch in against these high firepower sweepers in the current metagame and it might be just impossible to stop them sweeping when your one dedicated counter is down.

 

What causes these Pokemon to appear so powerful in the battles? The fact that they never have to be scared of a slower Pokemon outspeeding them. And why isn't Choice Scarf users viable? I would argue this because you just have to use Life Orb offense to break the top tier defensive threats, and at least usage backs this up in my opinion. The highest used Pokemon of the UU tier are Scizor, Altaria, Tentacruel, Exeggcutor, Cradily and Slowking. If not being entirely walls, they have a really noticable defensive niche in the UU metagame. Barring Tentacruel, all of these Pokemon are very slow which makes Life Orb offense easily the best one to defeat the most used Pokemon in the tier. Meanwhile Scarf offense just does not have the power to beat the defensive UU threats.

 

The cycle of rock paper scissors kinda goes like this: Life Orb offense > Walls > Scarf offense > Life Orb offense. However, since basically every UU team runs some kind of defensive Pokemon while as whole wallcore teams are really popular people tend to play offensively with Life Balls and because other players will too - at worst they are at speed tie. And this is a massive problem as well. A vast majority of the duels I've played in UU in last week or two has come down to some sort of a speed tie (most common being Nidoking or Swellow).

 

 

I agree that Scarf users are quite rare in UU. However, it is unfortunate, but I hardly think it is that big of an issue. I have personally seen people use Scarf Scizor, Scarf Crawdaunt, Scarf Absol and Scarf Nidoking with relative high success. Scarf are not popular in UU, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that they are unviable.

 

I honestly think UU have never been in a better place. It seems all playstyles are viable right now which is very good. Curse wars imo only happen when players are unprepared to face a curse user; I see this as a teambuilding flaw considering the numerous ways that have been mentioned to deal with those curse users.

[OrangeManiac]

12 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I am highly shocked by this statement. Nidoking got a 10 atk boost recently, so calling it already the strongest pokemon in the metagame is a very premature analysis imo. If you are talking about Nidoking even before the atk boost, in that case, I think you are just wrong; Nidoking became so unviable in UU at one point that it fell to NU by usage where even there it was not as impactful as people anticipated. 

Ironically this is what I argued about Zangoose and I was just argued against that the fact Zangoose's usage is low is irrelevant.

 

Quote

I honestly think UU have never been in a better place. It seems all playstyles are viable right now which is very good. Curse wars imo only happen when players are unprepared to face a curse user; I see this as a teambuilding flaw considering the numerous ways that have been mentioned to deal with those curse users.

All of your listed "CurseCradily counters" are very shaky and do not work in practice. Hitmonlee, Scizor* and Aggron are all hardwalled by Slowking. This is the most you can "teambuild" against CurseCradily and needless to say it isn't really reliable so the most reliable way to beat a CurseCradily is to bring your own.

 

The rest is just opinionated commenting, so it's pointless to comment about anything else.

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[gbwead]

14 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

All of your listed "CurseCradily counters" are very shaky and do not work in practice. Hitmonlee, Slowking Scizor and Aggron are all hardwalled by Slowking. This is the most you can "teambuild" against CurseCradily and needless to say it isn't really reliable so the most reliable way to beat a CurseCradily is to bring your own.

Toxic + special offense breaks Cradily. Charm/Feather Dance beats Cradily. Lee, Scizor and Aggron might be walled by Slowking, but Slowking is a bait to things like Crawdaunt or Glalie that you absolutely don't want to come in play. There are viable ways to punish players' reliance on standard walls. 

 

edit: If every time, Hitmonlee, Scizor or Aggron switches on Cradily and wallbreaks. Cradily would either not even be UU or Lee/Scizor/Aggron might be considered banworthy. Expecting Cradily's counters to not be walled to some degree seems kind of unrealistic to me. If that was the case, we would then have a problem, but as of right now I can't say we do.

Edited December 31, 2016 by gbwead

[OrangeManiac]

17 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Cradily would either not even be UU or Lee/Scizor/Aggron might be considered banworthy. Expecting Cradily's counters to not be walled to some degree seems kind of unrealistic to me.

It isn't getting walled "to some degree", it's completely hard walling them so not even a prediction will win them this encounter. And this is what Slowking does. Not to mention that Scizor is the only Pokemon you can switch on CurseCradily all day every day, the rest will wear out eventually.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 89-105 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 94-111 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Aggron is the only one that works in theory but this requires you to predict with Tpunch and being locked to CB Thunderpunch your opponent has such a room for selection to punish Aggron for the Choice Band.