UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[pachima]

I´m gonna be honest. The amount of cursetanks played in this cc was absolutely enormous. Anyway, everyone knows life ball miltank is the best it can be.

Still, yeah it needs a discussion.

[BurntZebra]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

Ok, I know this is going to sound hilarious, but after watching the UU Community Combat today, I have a proposal that we open a discussion thread for a potential test ban of Miltank. 

 

Like Kangaskhan, Miltank is a safe switch to a number of threats throughout UU and like Snorlax it sports the dreaded Curse + Body Slam combo that was broken in OU. Unlike Snorlax though, Miltank can outspeed the most of the highly used threats even after one Curse, making it a formidable wall breaker. It can also support itself with Heal Bell + Milk Drink or simply by using Rest. Thick Fat adds to its incredible potential, negating Ice-type and Fire-type attacks.

 

Simply put, if Kangaskhan was banned for being unhealthy, it only makes sense that Miltank follows suit. It was stated that when Kangaskhan was banned, players would be forced to "balance their special wall with the particular needs of their team". Unfortunately with Miltank's rise in usage, this is no longer the case. From January to February, I fully expect Miltank to be one of the most highly used Pokemon in UU. 

 

tl;dr Suspect Ban Miltank

 

 

For prior discussion, here is a link showing that Miltank was once banned from UU to BL: 

 

Pretty big difference from when it was banned before. A) I'm not entirely convinced it was banworthy when it was banned in the past since steelix was quite viable at the time, along with haunter, misdreavus, and shuckle too. B ) There wasn't choice specs/life orb, which make miltank's life a lot more difficult. Choice specs makes it possible for manectric/exeggutor/jynx/lapras/etc to 2hko miltank straight up, which means the curse set has a lot more trouble accomplishing much. The issue of fire punch or heal bell is another reason why curse miltank isn't necessarily a problem. Toxic is very common in UU as of now (not necessarily a good thing), so miltank is pretty much required to run heal bell or rest, but scizor is also the #1 used pokemon, which deals with the mono attacking miltank sets with swords dance+superpower. You could run rest+fire punch, but back to special attackers being able to 2hko miltank.

 

Personally, I'm not entirely happy with how UU looks right now, but I'm not sure if miltank is the main culprit. I think it's a bit more complicated than one pokemon itself being the issue. Altaria, scizor, slowking, exeggutor, and even something like tentacruel could have fingers pointed at them, for why defensive teams have so much usage in UU. The core of altaria+scizor requires pokemon to run somewhat ridiculous coverage to try and cover both of them, as there are very few pokemon who can run fire+ice moves, and those who can, might have other issues such as being walled by tentacruel/slowking, who resist both of those types. Exeggutor is a problem on the other side of the spectrum, being a huge offensive threat with very minimal switch ins, due to pretty much everything being prone to either giga drain, psychic, hp fire, or toxic, and it's easier to deal with exeggutor by switching around altaria/miltank or cradily, and trying to get sneasel/absol in vs exeggutor safely. 

[DarylDixon]

i appreciate if some1 raise the usage of keckleon and shuckle in UU <3

[OrangeManiac]

Alright, I don't wanna sound like a broken record but.......... unban Rhydon. Call this a bold statement but it is actually a worse Golem at this point. It is slower, only has 10 more attack but lacks Sturdy. I'm aware Rhydon gets Megahorn which gives it additional coverage over grass types like Meganium but the fact Meganium can with very minor investment to make sure it outspeeds even Jolly Rhydon makes Meganium a surefire counter to Rhydon unless gets Megahorned in the switch in turn. In long run, however I could argue that the lack of Sturdy makes Rhydon an inferior Golem.

[Havsha]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

Alright, I don't wanna sound like a broken record but.......... unban Rhydon. Call this a bold statement but it is actually a worse Golem at this point. It is slower, only has 10 more attack but lacks Sturdy. I'm aware Rhydon gets Megahorn which gives it additional coverage over grass types like Meganium but the fact Meganium can with very minor investment to make sure it outspeeds even Jolly Rhydon makes Meganium a surefire counter to Rhydon unless gets Megahorned in the switch in turn. In long run, however I could argue that the lack of Sturdy makes Rhydon an inferior Golem.

I still dont believe UU has any safe switches for rhydon, whereas we do for golem with meganium and exeggutor 

[OrangeManiac]

1 minute ago, Havsha said:

I still dont believe UU has any safe switches for rhydon, whereas we do for golem with meganium and exeggutor 

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 96-114 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If the tiering bases on having safe switches for everything you're obviously end up seeing 6 wall teams because if every offensive threat needs to be reliably switched against that is the unavoidable outcome.

 

There are no reliable counters to Ursaring or Zangoose in OU but they're not used a lot because their overall utility just isn't as good as something like Flygon, even though it is hard countered by multiple Pokemon. A Pokemon like Flygon works against fast and defensive Pokemon while Ursaring in OU is highly limited to just breaking walls. Rhydon would be the same way in UU, it's just dead weight in a offensive battle and compared to Golem is that Golem is guaranteed to get at least one strong hit off in a offensive battle - Rhydon none.

[DaftCoolio]

10 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Alright, I don't wanna sound like a broken record but.......... unban Rhydon. Call this a bold statement but it is actually a worse Golem at this point. It is slower, only has 10 more attack but lacks Sturdy. I'm aware Rhydon gets Megahorn which gives it additional coverage over grass types like Meganium but the fact Meganium can with very minor investment to make sure it outspeeds even Jolly Rhydon makes Meganium a surefire counter to Rhydon unless gets Megahorned in the switch in turn. In long run, however I could argue that the lack of Sturdy makes Rhydon an inferior Golem.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 162-192 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Meganium is a surefire counter to Rhydon but, and its a big but and i can not lie, you can get ohko'd by megahorn. If Rhydon gets in the pressure it puts on you would be almost unparalleled. You find yourself at a point where your tossing a coin to decide which pokemon to switch in. 

 

10 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Rhydon would be the same way in UU, it's just dead weight in a offensive battle and compared to Golem is that Golem is guaranteed to get at least one strong hit off in a offensive battle - Rhydon none.

I understand that its not guaranteed to get a chance to take a kill but that implies your opponent has to be running offense. Not just regular offense but 6 mons that can all ohko Rhydon. With its impressive physical bulk and the tiers focus on defensive play-styles it is more than likely that it gets off at least one hit, it may not be guaranteed but you can't guarantee Golem does either with spikes and multi hit moves.

 

For me the advantage Rhydon gets from having access to megahorn is greater than that of the gain Golem gets from Sturdy.

 

 

 

 

[OrangeManiac]

1 hour ago, DaftCoolio said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Meganium: 162-192 (86.6 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Meganium is a surefire counter to Rhydon but, and its a big but and i can not lie, you can get ohko'd by megahorn. If Rhydon gets in the pressure it puts on you would be almost unparalleled. You find yourself at a point where your tossing a coin to decide which pokemon to switch in. 

 

I understand that its not guaranteed to get a chance to take a kill but that implies your opponent has to be running offense. Not just regular offense but 6 mons that can all ohko Rhydon. With its impressive physical bulk and the tiers focus on defensive play-styles it is more than likely that it gets off at least one hit, it may not be guaranteed but you can't guarantee Golem does either with spikes and multi hit moves.

 

For me the advantage Rhydon gets from having access to megahorn is greater than that of the gain Golem gets from Sturdy.

 

 

 

 

It's not tossing a coin, in this game we have four moves and the correct one has a 15% chance of missing.

 

Let's have with some fun with math shall we?

- 21,25% of the time the Meganium switch will not work out for the Meganium user (getting Megahorned). Oh and this isn't even a guaranteed OHKO.

- Rhydon can at least somewhat reliably switch in against following Pokemon: Altaria, Armaldo, Clefable, Hypno and defensive Misdreavus. All of the other Pokemon have a very common move that either OHKOs Rhydon or 2HKOs and because they are in a better speed they are guaranteed to beat Rhydon when switched in. This is 6 out of 34 Pokemon that Rhydon can switch into, making it 17,64% likely that Rhydon has a switch in. People are afraid of Rhydon being impossible to switch in against but this very thing shows that against a team with Meganium Rhydon is actually harder to switch in against than it is to switch in against Rhydon. And this is only taking Meganium into consideration, Rhydon has some lesser checks too. (Yeah, there's a chance Rhydon switches in against a move that is not effective on it making the 2HKOs 3HKOs, I'll give you that one. The multiple shit ton of weaknesses make multiple Pokemon have multiple super effective moves on Rhydon making it therefor a Pokemon that cannot be switched in against and therefor I ruled them out)

- Well, switch ins are not the be all end all right? Can Rhydon actually sweep? In 1v1 encounter Rhydon defeats the following Pokemon with their standard set: Altaria, Ampharos, Armaldo, Clefable, Cradily, Hypno, Slowking, defensive Nidoqueen and Misdreavus (oh and Miltank). This is 11 out of 34 UUs in the tier making it that Rhydon wins a 1v1 battle against one in every 3 UU Pokemon. How can this Pokemon sweep? How on earth is this Pokemon offensive Ubers? I will also use this 1v1 example to demonstrate that even if you run no Meganium if your team does not include multiple of these following Pokemon you should be having no problems with Rhydon whatsoever. 

 

The only argument anyone can have left is that "it makes defensive play unviable", and that is only true in 6 wall teams containing the 6 from all the mentioned 11 I had. If Rhydon forces you for such a small teambuild adjustments and meanwhile everyone and their mother runs either a Scizor or Steelix to stop CurseCradily then how is this exactly metagame affecting? To me it just seems that there's a notable confirmation bias with anyone still considering Rhydon a banworthy Pokemon, before I could at least understand that they don't have the necessary data but there's literally 0 players so far complaining about Golem. If your argument against Rhydon is "I have to run Meganium" you literally have to use the same argument on Golem.

 

inb4 this comment ends up getting Golem banned.

Edited February 9, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[Rigamorty]

Rhydon also gets swords dance and golem doesn't as far as I'm aware.

[Mnemosyne]

I would be more afraid for the sub + sd set then cb set tbh.

[OrangeManiac]

I think + 50 HP Subs are kinda scary against Pokemon with only Seismic Toss but I don't think that Rhydon without CB should even run SD. Much better off running 3 coverage moves + Sub.

[Draekyn]

The fact that it could potentially run SD is scary enough. Can't scout the move it picks with protect even if you're pretty sure it's banded, it might not be and you might get fucked.

[Rigamorty]

I'm not even really against the idea of testing Rhydon, the way the meta currently is I feel like it could be a pretty healthy change, especially now that Vap is down it could probably be not too terrible. I just feel saying the reason to bring it down being that it's a bad golem isn't really true/fair.

[RysPicz]

Dont bring down Rhydon. Ban Golem

 

Problem solved, class dismissed

[Mnemosyne]

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Dont bring down Rhydon. Ban Golem

 

Problem solved, class dismissed

Ban Golem for what? Yeah it's a good wallbreaker but I don't think it's that hard to play around it.

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Mnemosyne said:

Ban Golem for what? Yeah it's a good wallbreaker but I don't think it's that hard to play around it.

According to what I just read, ban Golem forr being a better Rhydon cuz faster and sturdy

[Mnemosyne]

Just now, RysPicz said:

According to what I just read, ban Golem forr being a better Rhydon cuz faster and sturdy

Problem with Rhydon is that it gets Swords Dance, which is scary. Can set up on too many things in UU tier pretty easily. 

[OrangeManiac]

1 hour ago, Mnemosyne said:

Problem with Rhydon is that it gets Swords Dance, which is scary. Can set up on too many things in UU tier pretty easily. 

Setting up Rhydon is pretty pointless. Your +2 attack is useless beyond finishing that one Pokemon you're facing because 70% of the tier can revenge kill a Rhydon which means Rhydon has to either switch or it dies. Even without SD Rhydon can do what it's supposed to: break walls.

 

On another note, I love how in PokeMMO whenever the viability of 6 walls team is threatened everyone's like "b-bbut muh diversity and defensive play" but when 6 sweeper teams aren't viable no one bats an eye. And no I'm not saying metagame should be 6 sweepers team either but a true diversity forces you out of both sides to an extent.

 

But yeah, rip Golem I guess.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by OrangeManiac

[RysPicz]

I played a lot in the Rhydon meta and I had a lot of experience with Rhydon itself. I see a lot of flawed arguments here which I will adress when I will be back home.

[gbwead]

3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

Setting up Rhydon is pretty pointless. Your +2 attack is useless beyond finishing that one Pokemon you're facing because 70% of the tier can revenge kill a Rhydon which means Rhydon has to either switch or it dies. Even without SD Rhydon can do what it's supposed to: break walls.

 

On another note, I love how in PokeMMO whenever the viability of 6 walls team is threatened everyone's like "b-bbut muh diversity and defensive play" but when 6 sweeper teams aren't viable no one bats an eye. And no I'm not saying metagame should be 6 sweepers team either but a true diversity forces you out of both sides to an extent.

Playing hyper offense is viable in UU, so I don't know what double standard you are talking about. I see people win with 6 sweepers in UU against stall teams all the time. However, the potential problem with adding Rhydon to UU is that offense becomes the only viable play style since the 70% of the tier that can potentially revenge kill Rhydon would now have to invest in speed to do so. Having offense has the only viable playstyle is very problematic when we don't have team preview since crucial game decisions would  become blind predicts and rng would have a much bigger impact on games. When speed invested Lanturn becomes viable as a special attacker because there are no longer special walls in the tier, the tier is pretty much shit imo.

 

I am not completly against Rhydon falling to UU, but let's not act like there is no risk or that pokemmo players are bias for trying to protect this slower paced tier.

Edited February 9, 2017 by gbwead

[OrangeManiac]

17 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Playing hyper offense is viable in UU, so I don't know what double standard you are talking about. I see people win with 6 sweepers in UU against stall teams all the time. However, the potential problem with adding Rhydon to UU is that offense becomes the only viable play style since the 70% of the tier that can potentially revenge kill Rhydon would now have to invest in speed to do so. Having offense has the only viable playstyle is very problematic when we don't have team preview since crucial game decisions would  become blind predicts and rng would have a much bigger impact on games. When speed invested Lanturn becomes viable as a special attacker because there are no longer special walls in the tier, the tier is pretty much shit imo.

 

I am not completly against Rhydon falling to UU, but let's not act like there is no risk or that pokemmo players are bias for trying to protect this slower paced tier.

Even though I am very offensively leaning player, even I use defensive Pokemon as pivots to try to even get my high power Pokemon in. Even though I wouldn't go as far as saying 6 sweeper teams are unusable, what I've seen that the best offensive players always tend to bring Slowkings, Cradilys, Altarias, Exes, Meganiums etc as their defensive pivots (and this is evident in the high usage of said pivots). No one would start to make this sound like this is a problem, not even offensive players will complain that running 6 high power glass cannons isn't a winning strategy. However, when an offensive Pokemon takes a proverbial shit on teams that consist of nothing but walls then the "defensive play should remain viable" - argument starts to pop up. That's what I consider a double standard.

 

The only real time even a walls player would be in a unfavourable situation against a Pokemon like Rhydon is when it gets a free switch in (revenge kill). Most defensive role Pokemon in UU have a strong move against a Rhydon (usually a 4x move due to 4x Water and Grass weakness) so Rhydon reliably switches in for under 20% of the metagame. Even against defensive teams Rhydon isn't a free win button by any means. When I say 70% of the metagame revenge kills Rhydon it doesn't mean all your Pokemon has to be in that 70%, just some of them. Having some Pokemon above 101 speed doesn't make it automatically offensive, don't you think? In addition so many of the Pokemon dedicated in defensive roles are above the base 80 speed so it's not like you need to speed invest your Pokemon just for Rhydon.

 

Your whole comment seems to base on the weird assumption that I want the metagame to become nothing but offensive Pokemon and it's honestly starting to trigger me. The whole reason for my iniative for Rhydon re-discussion was that Golem which is in very many similar ways relatable to Rhydon hasn't made anyone go "hide your kids, hide your wife it's a fucking Golem" despite it getting a very solid usage in last 2 months. And if Golem isn't making people to shit their pants, maybe we should revaluate Rhydon. The whole "confirmation bias" argument what I refer is that when people once deem something banworthy they don't want to revaluate that Pokemon because it could make them potentially feel like they were wrong. That was the only explination in my head why Golem is okay and Rhydon is a no-no.

[gbwead]

I don't think that you want a fully offensive meta, but that you might not realise that this is a potential outcome. Clefable, Hypno, Altaria, Crobat, Miltank, Kecleon and several CB users are free switches for Rhydon/Golem. Golem is really really good right now and people are struggling to handle it which is why we see this crazy amount of Meganiums being played in high tier games. Rhydon is pretty much a better Golem. The only thing Golem got on Rhydon is Sturdy, that's it. It doesn't have the SD, the 51 Subs, the 130 atk stat or the better coverage moves.

 

I'm glad you started talking about Rhydon because this is an important discussion to have. However, I don't appreciate your double standard accusation because I simply think it is false. It is entirely possible to run an UU team without a wall. Nearly all UU threats have offensive checks or counters and a good UU teambuild will exploit the pressure points of the opponent's team to make sure those checks won't take unecessary hits. An offensive teams doesn't have to run 6 glass-canons. Bulky offense is a thing too. 

 

Also, if you think it possible right now in UU to run a 6 walls team, but impossible to run a 6 offensive pokemons team, why do you think adding Rhydon will balance things out. Imo, with Rhydon in UU, running a 6 walls team would become impossible which doesn't fix anything. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by gbwead

[OrangeManiac]

@gbwead 

 

My "double standard" accusation wasn't directed at you or the tier council but at the PokeMMO community as a whole. Just wanted to mention this in case of any misunderstandings.

[RysPicz]

Right...

I'll do it this way since you are comparing Rhydon and Golem. What advantages they got over each other?

 

Golem

+ Sturdy

+ 5 More base speed

+ Allahuakbar

+ Rapid spin xddddd

 

Rhydon

+ 51 HP Subs

+ Setup move in Swords Dance

+ Megahorn

+ 10 more base atk

+ Pursuit

+ Ice Punch

 

I wanted to actually ask about a discussion for Golem earlier- I'm just incredibly busy IRL lately and I hate typing on phone and couldn't do it before. And I wanted to do it because of how much Golem reminds me... Rhydon- that's why I mentioned the argument that I played in the Rhydon meta. Golem is incredibly centralizing just like Rhydon was before because in my eyes it's an offensive uber. You got literally no safe switches in UU for it and because of it's ability (and for us, lack of the tools in stuff like sneaky pebbles, uturn, toxic spikes) it's almost guaranteed to grab a kill in the game or at least deal heavy damage unless you get badly predicted. Your best bet is Meganium and that's only if it's at full health and won't get struck 2 times in a row by 4 hit rock blast.

 

There was a reason why I always argued about Rhydon being brought back to UU, which happened like... 2? or 3 times already. And it always ended up in BL again as offensive uber/ centralizing. I do not think we should bring down a broken poke just because it's very similar to yet another in my opinion, broken poke.

 

Golem itself became rapidly very centralizing and resulted in a massive spike in Meganium's usage.

[Flavawhat]

 

10 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

You got literally no safe switches in UU for it and because of it's ability (and for us, lack of the tools in stuff like sneaky pebbles, uturn, toxic spikes) it's almost guaranteed to grab a kill in the game or at least deal heavy damage unless you get badly predicted. Your best bet is Meganium and that's only if it's at full health and won't get struck 2 times in a row by 4 hit rock blast.

 

 

 

isnt claydol kinda the perfect answer vs golems? rhydon would shit on it though