[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[SpartacusGD]

Tried quite alot of duels, fake tears jolteon is too hard to control, sludge bomb gengar almost always uncomp/too strong, cm hp ground/signal beam espeon is close to unstopable after 1 cm only way to control it at that point should be like dug/aero especially late game. All in all i find it sucky.

[Excelimpulse]

How do you plan on getting jolteon in and giving it one turn to set up?
252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 156-188 (75.3 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 112-132 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 164-196 (79.2 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marowak: 86-102 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(and marowak has bonemerang for jolts behind subs)
252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 64-76 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 43-51 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Looks like a fair amount of counters to me

You have one +1 jolt up there. Come on if your going to do calcs on what I am saying about fake tears and growth do them then. Don't do the calcs that benefit your side of the argument. And on top of that not one of them can come in on the hps if predicted. And with any spike support fake tears isn't even needed.

And acting like jolteon has no spec def bulk to come in kinda shocks me. You should know that it can come in and force things to switch.

Jolteon,gengar,starmie,rain teams, dugtrio, all need to go for this meta to work now. Umbreon becomes the only thing that can stop spec attackers but then becomes set up bait. Cough centralizing *

[OrangeManiac]

People, start using P2 and Gardevoir. Nice special tanks and psst they even counter Jolteon so hard with Trace ability it's funny.

[SpartacusGD]

Thats the point you apply this p2 gardevoir thing to deal with jolt, hows that different from rhydon curselax analogy. P2 isnt even effective in dealing with cm espeon, so u gonna need some other sp def wall for that, drop the "use offensive switch" cause not many pokes outspeed espeon and if its special its no count cos it cant kill cm espy, which leaves 2 dug/aero. Speaking of too centralizing there you go.

[OrangeManiac]

Thats the point you apply this p2 gardevoir thing to deal with jolt, hows that different from rhydon curselax analogy. P2 isnt even effective in dealing with cm espeon, so u gonna need some other sp def wall for that, drop the "use offensive switch" cause not many pokes outspeed espeon and if its special its no count cos it cant kill cm espy, which leaves 2 dug/aero. Speaking of too centralizing there you go.

 

Once again: Snorlax was not banned due to being too good, it was banned due to being unhealthy for the metagame. It made special offense unviable compared to physical offense. Something like Rhydon can break both special and physical walls. While special sweepers can only break physical walls. All the discussion regarding Rhydon's power against Snorlax just misses the point of the ban.

 

But yeah, I'll explain you how Gardevoir and P2 are different to counter a Jolteon than Rhydon against a Snorlax. Garde and P2 are not the only things that can do something to Jolteon. Any Pokemon with some special defense and not weak to Thunderbolt will do something to Jolteon while strong physical attackers were the only thing that could do anything to Bliss and Lax. Which again wasn't the reason for the ban, more than that it's completely pointless to run special offense over physical.

 

(In addition to that Snorlax and Blissey were just way too much better special defensive Pokemon than anything else by a mile but Jolteon is not so much more notably viable than other special attackers)

Just my thoughts but I really like Snorlax and Blisseyless metagame. Not because "ermahgerd wall phagets" but that it made everything more balanced. There's finally special attackers limiting physical walls, feels like every playstyle is viable. There are some stuff that feel kinda OP, namely Gengar but I think it's still better than it used to ne.

Edited June 19, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[bl0nde]

Common sense question(just for the lols of it):

 

We have been playing with snorlax and blissey almost since the beginning of PokeMMO. We've also had Jolteon, Gengar, etc since the beginning. If the game is so unbalanced for the special attackers and the issue is so problematic, would it not have been brought up sooner? Like maybe last year or something at a minimum?

Edited June 19, 2015 by bl0nde

[gbwead]

Common sense question:

We have been playing with snorlax and blissey almost since the beginning of PokeMMO. We've also had Jolteon, Gengar, etc since the beginning. If it such a great re-balance and the issue is so problematic, would it not have been perceived sooner? Like maybe last year or something at a minimum?

Before the split you mean?

[OrangeManiac]

Common sense question:

We have been playing with snorlax and blissey almost since the beginning of PokeMMO. We've also had Jolteon, Gengar, etc since the beginning. If it such a great re-balance and the issue is so problematic, would it not have been perceived sooner? Like maybe last year or something at a minimum?

 

 

Not like not much anything was found to be Uber-worthy from MMO about a bit over year ago (edit: Idk maybe closer to 1.5 years ago), even the ban of Tyranitar raised so much controversy first but which we considered a bit later a monster even before the physical special split. Banning Pokemon just was something that didn't even seem like an option to 99% of the community.

such digress tho

Edited June 19, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[BurntZebra]

Thats the point you apply this p2 gardevoir thing to deal with jolt, hows that different from rhydon curselax analogy. P2 isnt even effective in dealing with cm espeon, so u gonna need some other sp def wall for that, drop the "use offensive switch" cause not many pokes outspeed espeon and if its special its no count cos it cant kill cm espy, which leaves 2 dug/aero. Speaking of too centralizing there you go.

Actually p2 beats espeon as well.

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 73-87 (51.7 - 61.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 87-103 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

and return is the best move to hit ludicolo/jolteon as well

[SpartacusGD]

Actually p2 beats espeon as well.
0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 73-87 (51.7 - 61.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 87-103 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

and return is the best move to hit ludicolo/jolteon as well

So basically with like 1 spike or something p2 just rip at its best potential vs espeon. Or even if lets say it manages to beat espeon, p2 will end up with what? Like 1-5% hp to rhe point its basically useless.

[SpartacusGD]

Not like not much anything was found to be Uber-worthy from MMO about a bit over year ago (edit: Idk maybe closer to 1.5 years ago), even the ban of Tyranitar raised so much controversy first but which we considered a bit later a monster even before the physical special split. Banning Pokemon just was something that didn't even seem like an option to 99% of the community.

such digress tho

Banning pokes should be done carefully, i mean ok dnite deserved the ban, ttar after 1 dd can beat evwn its personal counters ok ban, salamence and wobu aswell but srsly lax? Bliss? Why wiuld you even ban them just cause you wanna see a p2 and lotsa gardevoir and umbreon in ou. I mean this is ou. Jolteon is here, starmie, gengar this isnt uu where umbreon can do its job. What i dont understand is just why force a change even if its real bad just so the usage stats will change. Different playstyle or whatever my ass. This ban doea nothing but force everyone to run more walls than we already need for ou threats or try to go offensive with the resistances and wnd up getting swept by a blazing fast sp sweaper cause this sweper has enough coverage, like ex. You wanna deal with jolteon using your "resistances" ok so that forces you to run flygon, meta, swampert. Drop one of those and jolteon has a clean sweap behind sub cause its coverage is better than your 2 offensive pokes and its faster so. I swear if this goes on and when everyone finally have 2 jolts with different hps and fake tears / growth, we'll have to ban it too hence chain ban. Til ou disolves cos demn they all got banned cos 1 will alway be king and 1 will always lead the usage stats and tc cant stand it and they itch to ban whoevers in that position.

Sorry for double post, on my phone

[BurntZebra]

So basically with like 1 spike or something p2 just rip at its best potential vs espeon. Or even if lets say it manages to beat espeon, p2 will end up with what? Like 1-5% hp to rhe point its basically useless.

with 1 spike up, espeon can't even come in vs starmie or jolteon, definitely not any physical attacker. Can't come in vs forretress/skarmory really. Can't come in vs gengar, arcanine, or umbreon. It's just like why zangoose wasn't banned from UU at one point, had a hard time setting up. 

[OrangeManiac]

@ Sparty, you do know bans are reversable? Not to mention even this is a stated as a test ban, if the metagame doesn't get better then these two are coming back? If we would be in a situation where the metagame would be found in a possible chain ban - state then everything here just can be reverted. I don't think there are too many possible banworthies right now (probably just 1-2) but they are also good in the old obese meta.

[codylramey]

I think its really just the fast calm mind sweepers and gengar that are OP atm (If even they are)

 

Jolt gets rekt by pory n gar

Starmie gets rekt by umbreon and ludi (does starmie get signal beam?)

 

while each of those walls can do a good job vs the other too (just not as good)

 

Gengar has umbreon who can rek it most of the time i think that is pretty much it. And Espy/zam are beasts. After a calm mind its hard to stop these two w/o sacing a poke to get in a faster physical hitter (Dugtrio, Aero, and sceptile). Buky physical attackers like metagross, gyaradose, and swampert can save ur team once in a lot of cases. Then you have Espeed Arcanine that can kill a espy with slight damage, Quick attack CB scizor can sponge 2 hits and 3hko with 40% damange or pursuit trap espy for a clean 2hko even w/o CB or if they dont switch, and even QA flygon can do 33%. I know scizor isnt viable right now but maybe this change will make him so. Idk just throwing ideas out there.

Edited June 19, 2015 by codylramey

[Excelimpulse]

I think its really just the fast calm mind sweepers and gengar that are OP atm (If even they are)

Jolt gets rekt by pory n gar
Starmie gets rekt by umbreon and ludi (does starmie get signal beam?)

while each of those walls can do a good job vs the other too (just not as good)

Gengar has umbreon who can rek it most of the time i think that is pretty much it. And Espy/zam are beasts. After a calm mind its hard to stop these two w/o sacing a poke to get in a faster physical hitter (Dugtrio, Aero, and sceptile). Buky physical attackers like metagross, gyaradose, and swampert can save ur team once in a lot of cases. Then you have Espeed Arcanine that can kill a espy with slight damage, Quick attack CB scizor can sponge 2 hits and 3hko with 40% damange or pursuit trap espy for a clean 2hko even w/o CB or if they dont switch, and even QA flygon can do 33%. I know scizor isnt viable right now but maybe this change will make him so. Idk just throwing ideas out there.

Banning two pokes that scizor loves to come in on or revenge kill makes it more viable? Oh that's right inb4 flamethrower fire punch argument . Besides the point scizor should have been being used along time ago. That scnergy with kingdra and that revenge kill ability come on.

[codylramey]

Banning two pokes that scizor loves to come in on or revenge kill makes it more viable? Oh that's right inb4 flamethrower fire punch argument . Besides the point scizor should have been being used along time ago. That scnergy with kingdra and that revenge kill ability come on.

Ex i ended that statement with the phrase "I know that scizor isnt viable right now" amd stated that MAYBE he can become more viable. No scizor wasnt a good answer to lax or bliss  bc of exactly what you said, flamethrower (which wasnt that often seen on bliss) and firepunch (which is WAY better than crunch on lax).  I guess HP fire has its viability on espy for hitting skarm. fortress, metagross and scizor but i think i would prefer to have dat 31 speed.  Also doesnt hit umbreon or other psychics with calmindl.

[Orlandu]

So how was the Oceanic Tournament?

Couldn't watch because it was so early in my country.

[AJooo]

jolteon everywhere , P2 and Gardevoir to counter it , lots of ludi/gengar too

Edited June 21, 2015 by AJooo

[Robofiend]

jolteon everywhere , P2 and Gardevoir to counter it , lots of ludi/gengar too

 

official or vermillion?

[NikhilR]

official or vermillion?

 

I think he means official, assuming that AjoStyle is him.

 

http://pokemmostaff.challonge.com/oceanicjune

[OldKeith]

Garde does not really stop Shadow Ball Jolteon, so people would naturally be forced to run P2. The meta is a bit weird from what /i heard but /i never got a chance to play in it.

[codylramey]

Garde does not really stop Shadow Ball Jolteon, so people would naturally be forced to run P2. The meta is a bit weird from what /i heard but /i never got a chance to play in it.

Is this popular now? i can actually see the merit in it, stopping gengar, gar, espy and being easier to obtain. But I feel like i dont see it much.

Edited June 22, 2015 by codylramey

[SpartacusGD]

i was there in the oceanic, i saw hella lots of cm espeons sweaping like 3-4 pokes to finish a game 2 names i remember atleast are cody and maalick. i saw some others who was sweaping with espeon but i forgot who. 

[codylramey]

Yea i held my espy bak until i got rid of its counters. Gyara can do the same thing tbh. My sweep was an end ggame sweep, nothing more.

[codylramey]

snorlax doesnt even look like he was the top used pokemon b4 the ban. I find tha odd since b4 he was banned the first time he was consistently the most used poke.