[Banned to BL2] Fearow

[gbwead]

Common set

 

Item : Choice Band

Nature : Jolly / Adamant

Ability : Keen eye

EVs : 4 hp / 252 atk / 252 speed

• Drill peck
• Return / Double-Edge
• Pursuit / Steel Wing
• Quick attack / Steel Wing

 

Overview

 

With two very powerful stab moves (Return and Drill peck), Fearow has an unprecendented sweeping potential; its 90 base atk stat paired with its 100 base speed stat is quite threatening.

 

Hopefully, Rock or Steel type pokemons can switch in quite easily on Fearow (even though Steel Wing can be a problem for the Rock type). Furthermore, Fearow relies usually on Choice Band to deal damage which means Protect can allow Ghost and Electric type to switch in safely. Knock off is also problematic for Fearow.

 

Despite being predictable with its only viable choice band moveset, Fearow remains extremely dangerous in the tier. The NU council thinks this pokemon should be discussed.

 

Guideline questions 

 

Do you think Fearow belongs in NU?

Does Fearow fit the Uber Offensive characteristic and if so why? If not, why not?

[KaynineXL]

It needs to go. Too strong.

I'v not done much testing, but almost nothing can even come in on it. I think Golem and Aggron are the only that can actually come in.

 

 

EDIT:

Nvm golem gets rekt by steel wing.

 

So Aggron+Relicanth can take hits.

 

 

 

lol hp grass fearow, almost 2hko with no invest on reli

0- SpA Fearow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 92-112 (44.4 - 54.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO

Edited August 11, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Havsha]

[spoiler]

Relicanth:

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 41-48 (19.8 - 23.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 38-44 (18.3 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Golem:

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golem: 76-90 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Lapras:

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Lapras: 105-124 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Blastoise:

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 75-88 (40.3 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[/spoiler]

 

Please double check my calculations, I'm new to this stuff.

[RysPicz]

I would give it more time. NU is a fairly new tier, things are changing all the time. Solrock with instant recovery looks reliable though it won't like Steel Wing, Golem, Aggron and Relicanth look really strong against it as well. Still yeah, it goes quite easily through majority of teams with little ease thanks to it's speed and makes an excellent lategame killer.

I don't really play NU, unfortunately (yet), so that's ony a dry opinion from a bystander and not an active NU player.

[OrangeManiac]

The worst thing about Fearow is that leads players to overprotect their Rock/Steel types in a way that is really bad for a competitive and enjoyable metagame. Also you absolutely need to bring a Rock/Steel type or two or your team most likely is absolutely destroyed. However these Rock/Steel type Pokemon like Aggron, Metang, Relicanth as well as Golem, Cradily and Armaldo (unless predicted Steel Wing) these Pokemon can REALLY steal the momentum away from Fearow with very little effort and make the Fearow user really pay for its Choice Band. The Fearow user still is always in the upper hand since after Fearow it's easy to make a really easy double switch to something that counters these mentioned Pokemon. Another thing is that Diglett might turn into a really insane supporter to Fearow to take these Pokemon down and because Fearow is the reason these Pokemon should be used I'd argue Fearow is the broken one in this combo. Also Fearow in a right team can just really easily sweep and it just limits teambuilding so much. 

There are bulky Pokemon like Lapras, Walrein, Ampharos etc. that prevents Fearow from sweeping with spamming return at full HP as well as there are plenty of faster than Fearow Pokemon. Pokemon like Crobat and Electrode which could revenge kill Fearow are really easy to counter*. Electabuzz will take massive damage from Quick Attack and Scyther is fairly easy to counter unless it Swords Dances because it will either Normal attack or Aerial Ace Fearow.

When you combine these checks and faster Pokemon with the fact that there are just flat out hard counters to Fearow it's a bit hard to completely agree that it needs to go immediately personally but no one can deny the way Fearow will have impact in this metagame we have now. It might just turn it way too much about just Fearow.

Edited August 12, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[BurntZebra]

I think banning fearow would go against most of what NU tier council has attempted so far. Sure fearow is a dominant offensive force, but I mean look at the other threats in NU as well. Stantler has much better coverage, a better ability, and better moves base power wise. Zangoose can destroy the meta after a swords dance, but it was not banned because it could be revenge killed. Guess what? Fearow can be revenge killed as well and has arguably less switch in opportunities than other pokemon. Fearow can't even sweep really, just because it can only 3hko most of its counters and it can get revenged by sneasel/electrode/kadabra/electabuzz/anything higher than 100 base speed really. 

[KaynineXL]

It might just turn it way too much about just Fearow.

Exactly. This is what I don't want. This is what I loved about NU, majority of the viable NU pokes were good. I had a hard time choosing a team because so many things were good, it made NU really balanced imo.

 

The old most used things, such as Hitmon, Grumpig, Tangela etc all had things that hurt them. Absol fucked up grumpig, Tangela could get hit by things like mixed sharpedo(and others), hitmon was pretty good but still would get chunked by scyther and it has no instant recovery.

 

Now.. Fearow is on the spotlight and honestly, not much can deal with it.. Sure there are a couple of things that can, but this means we will get the same pokes a lot, and I really don't want that. I liked the fact everyone used different things.

 

That's just my 2 cents anyway.

 

edit:

Stantler has much better coverage, a better ability, and better moves base power wise. Zangoose can destroy the meta after a swords dance, but it was not banned because it could be revenge killed.

Stantler is slower(big difference), and fearow has duel stab.. not to mention super on hitmon.. As far as I'm concerned Stantler is just a weaker Zangoose, hence why it wasn't used often.

 

Zangoose still had a hard time with hitmon. Even if zangoose got +2 on the switch, intim takes it down one. and double mach punch can almost 2hko, maybe even 2hko with investment, not sure.

Edited August 11, 2015 by KaynineXL

[BurntZebra]

Exactly. This is what I don't want. This is what I loved about NU, majority of the viable NU pokes were good. I had a hard time choosing a team because so many things were good, it made NU really balanced imo.

 

The old most used things, such as Hitmon, Grumpig, Tangela etc all had things that hurt them. Absol fucked up grumpig, Tangela could get hit by things like mixed sharpedo(and others), hitmon was pretty good but still would get chunked by scyther and it has no instant recovery.

 

Now.. Fearow is on the spotlight and honestly, not much can deal with it.. Sure there are a couple of things that can, but this means we will get the same pokes a lot, and I really don't want that. I liked the fact everyone used different things.

 

That's just my 2 cents anyway.

You're acting like we've had this NU meta for years. We've literally had 4 NU tournaments since hoenn. I don't even think people are sure what to run yet. If you go, let's say 6 months, without the NU meta changing at all, you're going to see very similar teams, just like what happened in UU. Sure there are other options to use, but people tend to keep onto defensive or offensive cores, especially once they see them work and win a tournament. 

[DoubleJ]

Comparing Fearow to Stantler or Zangoose seems unfair. Sure Stantler has a higher attack and intimidate but it lacks that duel stab, and also lacks the switch in options fearow has. Zangoose pretty much requires an sd to do anything, thus fearow is just outright better.

[BurntZebra]

Comparing Fearow to Stantler or Zangoose seems unfair. Sure Stantler has a higher attack and intimidate but it lacks that duel stab, and also lacks the switch in options fearow has. Zangoose pretty much requires an sd to do anything, thus fearow is just outright better.

and fearow lacks earthquake and iron tail and megahorn and intimidate. Stantler can come in vs weak walls like tangela or just doing a good ol fashioned double switch. Fearow can come in vs cb eqs (very rare it seems) or double switches. Zangoose also runs a choice band set that can threaten most of the meta. Zangoose and stantler were just a few examples, there's pinsir, nidoking, flareon, primeape, and magmar are all very threatening physical attackers, that don't really have that many true "counters" but just rely on being outsped or being predicted around. 

[DoubleJ]

and fearow lacks earthquake and iron tail and megahorn and intimidate. Stantler can come in vs weak walls like tangela or just doing a good ol fashioned double switch. Fearow can come in vs cb eqs (very rare it seems) or double switches. Zangoose also runs a choice band set that can threaten most of the meta. Zangoose and stantler were just a few examples, there's pinsir, nidoking, flareon, primeape, and magmar are all very threatening physical attackers, that don't really have that many true "counters" but just rely on being outsped or being predicted around. 

 

The difference though is that Fearow is a scouting, pressure-based lead or a revenge killer, where as Stantler can play multiple roles but is simply hindered by its terrible speed. 

[BurntZebra]

The difference though is that Fearow is a scouting, pressure-based lead or a revenge killer, where as Stantler can play multiple roles but is simply hindered by its terrible speed. 

stantler is the same speed as nidoking and pinsir. Are you going to tell me pinsir isn't viable because its slow

[DoubleJ]

stantler is the same speed as nidoking and pinsir. Are you going to tell me pinsir isn't viable because its slow

 

Pinsir honestly has much better resistances and access to Swords Dance + QA. 

[gbwead]

Pinsir honestly has much better resistances and access to Swords Dance + QA. 

and 125 base stat in atk. Stantler only has 95 cmon ...

[BurntZebra]

and 125 base stat in atk. Stantler only has 95 cmon ...

and fearow has 90 base attack

[DoubleJ]

and 125 base stat in atk. Stantler only has 95 cmon ...

 

But Stantler has a STAB sadly...

[Robofiend]

Main problem is that all of the fearow counters are extremely specific. While Zangoose is threatened by Hitmontop's Mach Punch, Haunter, Sableye (ok, not that much, but it stops the CB set from spam sweeping) and a few other pokes, Fearow is only afraid of rock/steels.

 

Let me also point out that Stantler's speed tier is bad, Iron Tail is bad, and Megahorn is ok but nowhere near as good as STAB Drill Peck. If Stantler were good, people would use it, and right now they just don't because there are better pokes available (like Fearow, for instance).

 

That said, it's time for a good ol wall'o'calcs, Fred style:

 

Hitmontop

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 152-182 (50 - 59.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Blastoise

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 165-195 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 168 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 109-130 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

(Note that Blastoise cannot 1HKO Fearow)

 

Solrock

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 144-170 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Golem

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

 

Sableye

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And of course there is Aggron, Magcargo, and Mawile, none of whom are ever used in NU. I think it's pretty obvious that Fearow should be quickbanned, not even sure how we're having debate from one member of the community - it's that obviously strong.

 

The main problem is that Fearow is incredibly good - it sweeps most offensive teams without fear and if combined with other normal-spammers like Zangoose, can be saved until late game when its checks are worn down to come in and sweep. Additionally, all of Fearow's counters are extremely specific: it's not like Aggron is truly useful in the standard metagame (>why no one uses it), it's just a really good Fearow check. Additionally, it doesn't punish players for using Fearow - it's poorly matched up against every phys wall in the tier and has abundant weaknesses (notice that the same argument goes for Mawile, Magcargo, Solrock and defensive Sableye, to some degree).

 

This is a problem similar to what happens with Tyranitar in OU: it's checked by something like Breloom or Hitmontop with max HP/Defs, but neither poke can do anything for team but hang out and wait to counter the threat it's built specifically to stop. The end result of something like this is a tier where every team has Fearow+Aggron because Fearow's awesome and Aggron's the only surefire check.

 

Frankly, keeping Fearow in NU is on the border of flying in the face of TC policy as we know it and/or exploiting TC power to win matches by refusing to ban something that's obviously Uber. Send this thing to BL2 already.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Robofiend

[gbwead]

Golem

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 37.5% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

Golem with hp and def investment isn't bad. It can even resist hp grass from timid ninetales. It would also be a great option to counter magmar.

 

Solrock

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 144-170 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Well Solrock got an instant recovery move, so it isn't that bad. A choice band user stuck on a 70 base power steel move with 90% accuracy is in a bad position though.

 

Sableye

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sableye has access to Recover and Fake out so a 3HKO is not a big problem. He can simply heal himself or switch on an electric type (most of them have the static ability that can completly destroy Fearow).

 

And of course there is Aggron, Magcargo, and Mawile, none of whom are ever used in NU.

They might not be used a lot, but they are certainly not unusable. 

You also forget pokemons like Shuckle, Relicanth, Kabutops and Metang that can switch in on Fearow quite easily.

 

[hr]

 

With 100 base speed, Fearow is also suceptible to be revenge killed by several pokemons; Crobat, Electrode, Rapidash and Scyther just to name a few.

Fearow got maybe better hp/def/spdef stats than his bro Swellow, but he remains incredibly squishy with exploitable weaknesses (rock, ice and electric).

He also doesn't have the guts ability which makes him vulnerable to status and Toxic seems to be very popular in NU right now. There is not a lot of wil-o-wisp but it is not a dead move, especially with haunter's arrival in the tier.

 

[hr]

 

This might not very important, but lets not forget that the move "torment" will be fixed soon and it destroys Choice Band users.

[Gunthug]

@ robo

 

"(Note that Blastoise cannot 2HKO Fearow)"

 

did you mean 1hko? Because it easily 2hkos - and in fact, after double edge recoil, ice beam/torrent boosted surf/waterfall likely WILL 1hko. But stoise's lack of reliable recovery makes it a spotty counter, and more of a check imo. (though resttalk should be able to handle it, as double edge recoil will eventually take fearow down in a 1v1)

 

Anyways, this is a poke that looks slightly too strong on paper - just like in the old wild west days of UU, I feel like this thing will just always be waiting in the wings, the perfect revenge killer, forcing every team to bring a steel/rock type. However, that UU was one of the healthiest metas I've ever had the chance of playing in, so let's see how things shake out here

[gbwead]

The UU tier prior to the June changes only had Steelix and Omastar to deal with adamant Swellow and yet I haven't seen a single member of this community ask for Swellow to be ban.

 

The situation is slightly different with Fearow in NU, but really I think we are still far from the uber offensive characteristic.

[Robofiend]

@ robo

 

"(Note that Blastoise cannot 2HKO Fearow)"

 

did you mean 1hko? Because it easily 2hkos - and in fact, after double edge recoil, ice beam/torrent boosted surf/waterfall likely WILL 1hko. But stoise's lack of reliable recovery makes it a spotty counter, and more of a check imo. (though resttalk should be able to handle it, as double edge recoil will eventually take fearow down in a 1v1)

 

Anyways, this is a poke that looks slightly too strong on paper - just like in the old wild west days of UU, I feel like this thing will just always be waiting in the wings, the perfect revenge killer, forcing every team to bring a steel/rock type. However, that UU was one of the healthiest metas I've ever had the chance of playing in, so let's see how things shake out here

 

Yeah, good point there - my point was less about DE - since you're likely to get a 2HKO anyway and more about Drill Peck. I also should have done the original calcs at lvl 50 but oh well:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 58-69 (31.1 - 37%) -- 69.9% chance to 3HKO

 

They might not be used a lot, but they are certainly not unusable. 

You also forget pokemons like Shuckle, Relicanth, Kabutops and Metang that can switch in on Fearow quite easily.

 

Again - no one uses these pokemon because they're for the most part unviable. Kabutops might *seem* like a good check, but it can't come in on Double Edge more than once. Metang, while seeming like it'd be entirely useless in NU... is actually entirely useless in NU. The fact that you have to list off 5+ things that are rarely used as possible checks/counters to Fearow is just more evidence that it should go. It's the same argument that I made above - none of the pokemon that people point at as "great Fearow checks" actually do anything for your team, given how easily checked they are by the rest of the metagame. Even the somewhat viable checks like Solrock, Sableye and Aggron can't really do anything to a lot of the metagame besides spam Toxic.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 57-68 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metang: 60-71 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 48-57 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (fast CB)

 

If you're suggesting that people run Bulky Relicanth, Impish Kabutops, or Relaxed Metang, that's just further proof that you have to build checks specifically to check Fearow and nothing else. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Robofiend

[Otulp]

Defensive mawile. W/ ice or tpunch. On my phone but someone calc.

Edit: figured it out

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 32-38 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even a def mawile w/ sd can be viable imo

Edited August 12, 2015 by Otulp

[felix]

Defensive mawile. W/ ice or tpunch. On my phone but someone calc.

Edit: figured it out

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 32-38 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even a def mawile w/ sd can be viable imo

why would u pick Mawile over Aggron?

[gbwead]

why would u pick Mawile over Aggron?

Intimidate and x2 weakness instead of x4

[DoubleJ]

#banthebird

 

 

EDIT: Although I think we are taking the power of Sneasel for granted as well.

 

Swords Dance, Faint Attack, Ice Punch, Brick Break is filthy. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by DoubleJ