[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Vaeldras]

 

Name the others. Machamp is out due to his lack of access to SD. Heracross is walled by Weezing which is almost always Chansey's partner. Blaziken gets shit on by Arcanine, Ursaring is legit but look where it's usage is. Another thing is, none of the pokes you listed, can carry a choiceband, as after that it's just an easy scout for Chansey.

 

 

 

 

discussing defensive cores, are we?

 

btw

 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 100-118 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[BurntZebra]

This is totally subjective perspective on which neither me nor many other players cannot agree with. And here is the problem.

As for me, it suits both defensive and unhealthy characteristics but I don't want to repeat myself and other people who were fighting to get rid of the pink blob.

 

Name the others. Machamp is out due to his lack of access to SD. Heracross is walled by Weezing which is almost always Chansey's partner. Blaziken gets shit on by Arcanine, Ursaring is legit but look where it's usage is. Another thing is, none of the pokes you listed, can carry a choiceband, as after that it's just an easy scout for Chansey.

 

Are you even serious here?

 

Oh really? Does it shut down a Charizard under sun? Does it shut down any other weather specially-oriented pokes (Kingdra, Ludi, Exegg)? When was the last time you saw a special weather-based team in OU? I haven't seen any, and the reason is chansey.

 

EDIT:

 

If pory2 would be that good as you describe, it'd be used at least a bit less than Chansey. Usage speaks everything.

I think its agreed on that it definitely isn't defensive uber. The ones up for debate would either be unhealthiness or centralization. 

 

That's pretty close-minded. Machamp is amazing because of its bulk up. It doesn't get revenge killed by things like aerodactyl or heracross. It can single-handedly break down a defensive core of chansey+ludicolo+weezing+slowbro, especially if slowbro doesn't run psychic. Heracross isn't walled by weezing, in fact, leftovers swords dance heracross beats weezing. If running choice band heracross, you can take advantage of weezing's reliance on pain split and switch in something with low base hp like jolteon. If you really think blaziken loses to arcanine, then I don't know what OU meta you're even watching. The only counters to blaziken are slowbro and a bulky/fast starmie, and even those are somewhat shaky. Arcanine does not have enough offense to handle blaziken, as it resists flamethrower+crunch and is only 3hko'ed by extreme speed. 

 

Name a special attacker that will become more viable purely by banning chansey. I think pretty much all special attackers are either viable now, or will be unviable until metagross, porygon2, umbreon, ludicolo, and aerodactyl are banned. 

 

252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Sun: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that seems to work to stop charizard. If you pull out some modest charcoal in sun blaze calc for overheat, chansey can't really take that hit either so irrelevant. 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Rain: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that seems to stop kingdra, especially if porygon runs thunder wave. 

 

The reason why we don't see weather teams is because there are no weather inducing abilities currently. There are no items that increase the length of weather currently. There are not many suicide leads currently, basically only electrode. There is no life orb to make weather sweepers more powerful. Kingdra lacks special dragon attacks to get past bulky waters. 

[RysPicz]

252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Sun: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that seems to work to stop charizard. If you pull out some modest charcoal in sun blaze calc for overheat, chansey can't really take that hit either so irrelevant. 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Rain: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Charcoal Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 90-106 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

 

This is without sun.

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Rain: 99-117 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thanks.

[BurntZebra]

 

252+ SpA Charcoal Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 90-106 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

 

This is without sun.

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Rain: 99-117 (51.5 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thanks.

 

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain: 156-184 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 373-441 (104.4 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

turns out chansey isn't op either then. 

[RysPicz]

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain: 156-184 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Blaze Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 373-441 (104.4 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

turns out chansey isn't op either then. 

Keep posting retarded unreal calculations that do not happen in real competitve battling at all. Mystic water Kingdra is legit, so is Charcoal Zard.

I'm done here, don't wanna discuss that further, knowing it's completly pointless and my arguments are going to be bounced back by absolute bullshit that doesn't even make much sense.

 

Chansey's usage will go higher. Mark my words.

[NikhilR]

I think its agreed on that it definitely isn't defensive uber. The ones up for debate would either be unhealthiness or centralization. 

 

That's pretty close-minded. Machamp is amazing because of its bulk up. It doesn't get revenge killed by things like aerodactyl or heracross. It can single-handedly break down a defensive core of chansey+ludicolo+weezing+slowbro, especially if slowbro doesn't run psychic. Heracross isn't walled by weezing, in fact, leftovers swords dance heracross beats weezing. If running choice band heracross, you can take advantage of weezing's reliance on pain split and switch in something with low base hp like jolteon. If you really think blaziken loses to arcanine, then I don't know what OU meta you're even watching. The only counters to blaziken are slowbro and a bulky/fast starmie, and even those are somewhat shaky. Arcanine does not have enough offense to handle blaziken, as it resists flamethrower+crunch and is only 3hko'ed by extreme speed. 

 

Name a special attacker that will become more viable purely by banning chansey. I think pretty much all special attackers are either viable now, or will be unviable until metagross, porygon2, umbreon, ludicolo, and aerodactyl are banned. 

 

252 SpA Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Sun: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that seems to work to stop charizard. If you pull out some modest charcoal in sun blaze calc for overheat, chansey can't really take that hit either so irrelevant. 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2 in Rain: 79-94 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that seems to stop kingdra, especially if porygon runs thunder wave. 

 

The reason why we don't see weather teams is because there are no weather inducing abilities currently. There are no items that increase the length of weather currently. There are not many suicide leads currently, basically only electrode. There is no life orb to make weather sweepers more powerful. Kingdra lacks special dragon attacks to get past bulky waters. 

 

Sorry Zebra, but there's a lot I disagree with in this post. Machamp CANNOT single-handedly break down a defensive core of Chansey+Ludicolo+Weezing+Slowbro. Weezing walls superpower and can continue to sludgebomb. The only way Machamp really poses a threat, is if it has facade to boost that guts along with sbomb poisoning. I don't see why Slowbro WON'T run psychic if you're carring Ludi+Weezing which can deal with gyara (since you replace psychic with hp elec). 

 

Blaziken loses to Arcanine, unless it is SD. I wouldn't say it loses, but it's walled. The CB standard sets are Blaze Kick / Superpower / Tpunch / Quick Attack. Arcanine can switch into the Superpower and continue to morning sun as Blaziken is forced to switch out due to the def drops. I'm not saying that this doesn't open up any opportunity that one can exploit, but just that Arcanine CAN beat Blaziken. 

 

I disagree with spakers continuing to remain unviable with Chansey being banned. Porygon2 does not possess the ability to deal with them all because it has coverage issues, unlike Chansey. If you're running twave, then you better have hp fire / ground to deal with Magneton or run something to handle Magneton. Also, if twave instead of toxic, then Slowbro can generally set up on you (unless tbolt). Also, you need return if you want to break the fast calm minders. Umbreon and Ludicolo get rekt by signal beam so, they clearly don't calm minders to the same degree as Chansey. Most calm minders possess hp fire / ground, and can ohko Metagross either with an item boosting the power of the move, or running lum along with a layer of spikes. By banning Chansey, players are forced to run spdef cores to cover various threats since they can't have the perfect coverage. Also, none of the sp walls have NC, which makes them more breakable. 

 

I agree on the last bit on how life orb would help weather sweepers, but most people are discouraged from using weather sweepers if they know their opponent has a Chansey. As far as I have observed, weather sweepers are nice if you want to beat an offensive team, but they lack the ability to break down walls which contributes to their lesser usage. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

Sorry Zebra, but there's a lot I disagree with in this post. Machamp CANNOT single-handedly break down a defensive core of Chansey+Ludicolo+Weezing+Slowbro. Weezing walls superpower and can continue to sludgebomb. The only way Machamp really poses a threat, is if it has facade to boost that guts along with sbomb poisoning. I don't see why Slowbro WON'T run psychic if you're carring Ludi+Weezing which can deal with gyara (since you replace psychic with hp elec). 

 

Blaziken loses to Arcanine, unless it is SD. I wouldn't say it loses, but it's walled. The CB standard sets are Blaze Kick / Superpower / Tpunch / Quick Attack. Arcanine can switch into the Superpower and continue to morning sun as Blaziken is forced to switch out due to the def drops. I'm not saying that this doesn't open up any opportunity that one can exploit, but just that Arcanine CAN beat Blaziken. 

 

I disagree with spakers continuing to remain unviable with Chansey being banned. Porygon2 does not possess the ability to deal with them all because it has coverage issues, unlike Chansey. If you're running twave, then you better have hp fire / ground to deal with Magneton or run something to handle Magneton. Also, if twave instead of toxic, then Slowbro can generally set up on you (unless tbolt). Also, you need return if you want to break the fast calm minders. Umbreon and Ludicolo get rekt by signal beam so, they clearly don't calm minders to the same degree as Chansey. Most calm minders possess hp fire / ground, and can ohko Metagross either with an item boosting the power of the move, or running lum along with a layer of spikes. By banning Chansey, players are forced to run spdef cores to cover various threats since they can't have the perfect coverage. Also, none of the sp walls have NC, which makes them more breakable. 

 

I agree on the last bit on how life orb would help weather sweepers, but most people are discouraged from using weather sweepers if they know their opponent has a Chansey. As far as I have observed, weather sweepers are nice if you want to beat an offensive team, but they lack the ability to break down walls which contributes to their lesser usage. 

If weezing runs sludge bomb, it can't really beat heracross at all, but I guess it does prevent non facade machamp from wrecking it. Machamp still survives a psychic so its not like psychic slowbro magically stops machamp, will still beat slowbro+chansey+ludicolo potentially. 

 

I don't know if you've seen any of your team mates play, but they all love their black belt swords dance blazikens, which obviously gg's arcanine. Choice band sets can also run earthquake to 2hko arcanine, while also getting some decent chip damage on something like starmie. Swords dance is probably the most popular set just because its not locked into moves and is a bit more unpredictable. If it isn't the most popular set, then its still the most viable set. 

 

Magneton already beats chansey so its a pretty bad point to say that porygon2 can't handle magneton. At least porygon2 has the option to beat magneton with either hp fire or ground, and gets the option to trap magneton if it so desires. I'd say toxic is the best option on porygon for the most part as it lets you wear down ludicolo/arcanine/dusclops etc and I think thunderbolt is the most popular coverage move for porygon as it allows it to counter gyarados and hit starmie/other water types for large damage. Umbreon doesn't really get wrecked by signal beam, unless you let alakazam/espeon set up more than 1 turn, especially considering umbreon has the chance to ohko alakazam. Alakazam+espeon are also capable of beating chansey with calm mind+lum berry+synchronize, so its a meh point as well. If you say chansey just has to switch out, then all arguments about chansey beating special walls on its own go out the window.

 

Weather teams don't see use for multiple reasons. Rain teams are stopped by the omnipresent ludicolo, gyarados, and potentially calm mind slowbro, while sun teams struggle to deal with arcanine, not to mention there is only one truly viable chlorophyll sun sweeper currently. 

 

edit: if machamp goes to +2 vs any wall, while getting burned/poisoned by any of them, it will ohko all of them, which is pretty risky on the wall players side. (Machamp can easily take 1 attack from them to set up a second bulk up as well)

Edited February 24, 2016 by BurntZebra

[NikhilR]

If weezing runs sludge bomb, it can't really beat heracross at all, but I guess it does prevent non facade machamp from wrecking it. Machamp still survives a psychic so its not like psychic slowbro magically stops machamp, will still beat slowbro+chansey+ludicolo potentially. 

 

I don't know if you've seen any of your team mates play, but they all love their black belt swords dance blazikens, which obviously gg's arcanine. Choice band sets can also run earthquake to 2hko arcanine, while also getting some decent chip damage on something like starmie. Swords dance is probably the most popular set just because its not locked into moves and is a bit more unpredictable. If it isn't the most popular set, then its still the most viable set. 

 

Magneton already beats chansey so its a pretty bad point to say that porygon2 can't handle magneton. At least porygon2 has the option to beat magneton with either hp fire or ground, and gets the option to trap magneton if it so desires. I'd say toxic is the best option on porygon for the most part as it lets you wear down ludicolo/arcanine/dusclops etc and I think thunderbolt is the most popular coverage move for porygon as it allows it to counter gyarados and hit starmie/other water types for large damage. Umbreon doesn't really get wrecked by signal beam, unless you let alakazam/espeon set up more than 1 turn, especially considering umbreon has the chance to ohko alakazam. Alakazam+espeon are also capable of beating chansey with calm mind+lum berry+synchronize, so its a meh point as well. If you say chansey just has to switch out, then all arguments about chansey beating special walls on its own go out the window.

 

Weather teams don't see use for multiple reasons. Rain teams are stopped by the omnipresent ludicolo, gyarados, and potentially calm mind slowbro, while sun teams struggle to deal with arcanine, not to mention there is only one truly viable chlorophyll sun sweeper currently. 

 

edit: if machamp goes to +2 vs any wall, while getting burned/poisoned by any of them, it will ohko all of them, which is pretty risky on the wall players side. (Machamp can easily take 1 attack from them to set up a second bulk up as well)

 

Well I've seen a lot of people use Haze Weezing. So Sbomb+haze weakens Heracross and does beat it. Machamp can beat the Slowbro+Ludicolo+Chansey core, but I am not sure if anyone even runs Ludicolo+Slowbro in the same team. Have 2x pokemon weak to Heracross megahorn is bad, so most ppl replace Slowbro or Ludi with Weezing. 

 

Again if you read my post, I specifically said Choice Band set. EQ could work as a replacement for QA, but it's even more punishable by Flygon / Aero / Gyara / Drum Zard. I'm just saying that each set has its faults. Without Choice Band, Blaziken can't beat Slowbro since it lives +2 tpunch but can't switch in and stay in on +1 tpunch. So ultimately the player has to decide what's more important. 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a Magneton beating Chansey. Firstly, I'm not trying to bring the issue of accuracy into the argument, but the ONLY way Magneton can beat Chansey is if it can hit metal sound accurately. Assuming the magneton user hits his metal sound, tbolt is still then a 3hko if I'm right. Also a lot of pressure lies on the Magneton user because he has to predict whether to tbolt or hp depending on if Chansey stays in or switches to something with electric immunity, which basically cancels out the effect of metal sound. Unlike with Chansey, Magneton can reliably beat P2 since it can set up sub for days. So I don't think they're similar at all. 

 

So far we've seen toxic / hp fire or ground / tbolt, seeing as how you consider those vital. I think it's fair to say most calm minders can capitalize on this, and almost free switch ins to Flygon, an opportunity that isn't present for every other choice bander vs Chansey. 

 

+1 252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 80-96 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 90-108 (69.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Maybe you can present me a different set of calcs with your desired spread. I'm assuming if you invest 252 attk evs on Umbreon with +spdef nature, you can ohko zam with bite. Espeon+Alakazam can't beat Chansey with lum+synch+calm mind unless they have a recovery move. Without lefties, seismic toss is usually a 3hko and it's one of the few things Chansey scouts for. Maybe you can run a different spread so that Seismic is a 4hko on Espeon. Of course, there are ways that Zam+Espeon can beat Chansey, but those are with movesets that are created solely to beat Chansey, which include cm / psy / taunt / recovery move. 

 

Apart from Weezing, yes Machamp can act as a fairly good wall breaker. Also, while Machamp is capable of beating your standard walls, it can't beat bulky gardevoirs and I've been seeing them on the rise lately. 

[Laz]

Zebra is over defending chansey like a mother protecting her child.

-Chansey is the most used poke in the whole tier, if you can take it down, you have more % to win that battle, as it lets you use your special mons more freely.
-Chansey heals your pokes statuses, heals them with wish, can scout CB / trick users with Protect. Can break pokes attempting to set up with Seismic toss.
-Can use toxic to make Growth jolteon less effective. Can Auto-heal with Natural cure. Can grant more lifespan to walls such as skarm, forre, cloy.
-Makes def arcas go numb, can beat magneton 1v1 with seismic ( i wonder how often metal sound hits + the possibility to switch and come back )
-Chansey can beat Tauros just by healing itself
( 252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 249-294 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 271-321 (75.9 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )
-Makes special pokes useless
-Chansey's usage is above 40%
-Most centralizing poke
-Nobody likes seeing its retarded pink tiny face

A Test ban is the most suited solution atm imo
 

[Spaintakula]

-Chansey can beat Tauros just by healing itself

( 252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 249-294 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 271-321 (75.9 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )

70%+ damage doesn't count as "being able to heal itself just by taking those hits". Yeah, Tauros gonna get fucked by that recoil, but in no way does chansey beat it just by healing itself. And anyway, only 1 layer of spikes, or chansey losing any health and not being 100% lowers its chances to do so.

 

As for this, there's been 18 pages of of why and why not this cunt should be in OU, both having valid points, so no point in going over the same things again and again. It's versatile, it's a poke any team could use just by slapping the pink blob in it. But yeah, it's not enough of an offensive threat(if any) to some pokes who can easily abuse that and set up on it. Tbh, I've always hated seeing metagross on an enemy team rather than this shit, because unlike the previous, chansey doesn't give as much pressure as meta does. 

 

Not the point for now though, a decision is in order, and pretty sure this thread deserves it a lot more than other suspects, discussions, whatever.

[Vaeldras]

70%+ damage doesn't count as "being able to heal itself just by taking those hits". Yeah, Tauros gonna get fucked by that recoil, but in no way does chansey beat it just by healing itself. And anyway, only 1 layer of spikes, or chansey losing any health and not being 100% lowers its chances to do so.

 

As for this, there's been 18 pages of of why and why not this uguu should be in OU, both having valid points, so no point in going over the same things again and again. It's versatile, it's a poke any team could use just by slapping the pink blob in it. But yeah, it's not enough of an offensive threat(if any) to some pokes who can easily abuse that and set up on it. Tbh, I've always hated seeing metagross on an enemy team rather than this shit, because unlike the previous, chansey doesn't give as much pressure as meta does. 

 

Not the point for now though, a decision is in order, and pretty sure this thread deserves it a lot more than other suspects, discussions, whatever.

 

if anything why would you use dedge over return on chansey?

And yea, although there were changes and the meta is slow to evolve this is getting ridiculous

[BurntZebra]

Well I've seen a lot of people use Haze Weezing. So Sbomb+haze weakens Heracross and does beat it. Machamp can beat the Slowbro+Ludicolo+Chansey core, but I am not sure if anyone even runs Ludicolo+Slowbro in the same team. Have 2x pokemon weak to Heracross megahorn is bad, so most ppl replace Slowbro or Ludi with Weezing. 

 

Again if you read my post, I specifically said Choice Band set. EQ could work as a replacement for QA, but it's even more punishable by Flygon / Aero / Gyara / Drum Zard. I'm just saying that each set has its faults. Without Choice Band, Blaziken can't beat Slowbro since it lives +2 tpunch but can't switch in and stay in on +1 tpunch. So ultimately the player has to decide what's more important. 

 

I don't think I've ever seen a Magneton beating Chansey. Firstly, I'm not trying to bring the issue of accuracy into the argument, but the ONLY way Magneton can beat Chansey is if it can hit metal sound accurately. Assuming the magneton user hits his metal sound, tbolt is still then a 3hko if I'm right. Also a lot of pressure lies on the Magneton user because he has to predict whether to tbolt or hp depending on if Chansey stays in or switches to something with electric immunity, which basically cancels out the effect of metal sound. Unlike with Chansey, Magneton can reliably beat P2 since it can set up sub for days. So I don't think they're similar at all. 

 

So far we've seen toxic / hp fire or ground / tbolt, seeing as how you consider those vital. I think it's fair to say most calm minders can capitalize on this, and almost free switch ins to Flygon, an opportunity that isn't present for every other choice bander vs Chansey. 

 

+1 252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 80-96 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 90-108 (69.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Maybe you can present me a different set of calcs with your desired spread. I'm assuming if you invest 252 attk evs on Umbreon with +spdef nature, you can ohko zam with bite. Espeon+Alakazam can't beat Chansey with lum+synch+calm mind unless they have a recovery move. Without lefties, seismic toss is usually a 3hko and it's one of the few things Chansey scouts for. Maybe you can run a different spread so that Seismic is a 4hko on Espeon. Of course, there are ways that Zam+Espeon can beat Chansey, but those are with movesets that are created solely to beat Chansey, which include cm / psy / taunt / recovery move. 

 

Apart from Weezing, yes Machamp can act as a fairly good wall breaker. Also, while Machamp is capable of beating your standard walls, it can't beat bulky gardevoirs and I've been seeing them on the rise lately. 

Haze sludge bomb weezing doesn't seem that great tbh. Already lacks coverage if it drops one move for sludge bomb and loses even more coverage if it drops another move for haze. If no tbolt, it loses to taunt gyarados. If no flamethrower, it can't really beat heracross. 

 

Choice band blaziken is the inferior set for me at least, so there's no reason to say that it loses to pokemon that the swords dance set can beat. Swords dance set even has the option to run a bit of special defense or hp to survive slowbro surf. 

 

I made it to the finals of a few OU tournaments just by running metal sound magneton. It beat chansey, porygon, venusaur, arcanine, flygon, and metagross all in one go. Magneton's special attack is insane and has a very powerful stab attack to spam, while the things that resist electric are quite weak to hidden power (flygon/venusaur). 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Espeon can pretty consistently beat chansey, as by the time chansey makes a move, espeon is already at +2 sp atk. If chansey goes for toxic, then espeon can attack at +2, if chansey goes for seismic toss, espeon can go to +3 then kill chansey before chansey can take out espeon with seismic toss. 

+3 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 186-219 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Umbreon beats espeon and alakazam much more consistently than chansey. 

 

 

Zebra is over defending chansey like a mother protecting her child.

-Chansey is the most used poke in the whole tier, if you can take it down, you have more % to win that battle, as it lets you use your special mons more freely.
-Chansey heals your pokes statuses, heals them with wish, can scout CB / trick users with Protect. Can break pokes attempting to set up with Seismic toss.
-Can use toxic to make Growth jolteon less effective. Can Auto-heal with Natural cure. Can grant more lifespan to walls such as skarm, forre, cloy.
-Makes def arcas go numb, can beat magneton 1v1 with seismic ( i wonder how often metal sound hits + the possibility to switch and come back )
-Chansey can beat Tauros just by healing itself
( 252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 249-294 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 271-321 (75.9 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )
-Makes special pokes useless
-Chansey's usage is above 40%
-Most centralizing poke
-Nobody likes seeing its pooped pink tiny face

A Test ban is the most suited solution atm imo
 

 

First statement is false, metagross is still the most used pokemon after several iterations of OU. Wish+protect aren't really op moves, considering every pokemon can learn protect, therefore everything could potentially scout cb moves. Almost every pokemon can learn toxic as well, although its usually not worth using because pretty much every pokemon has better offense than relying on toxic. Natural cure isn't inherently OP either. Is starmie OP? No. Arcanine is stopped by a lot of pokemon and lacks significant offense vs most of the meta, so its not surprising chansey is able to wall arcanine either. Metal sound is 85 acc so it hits 85% of the time. If you're really trying to claim that metal sound will miss two times in a row in order for chansey to beat magneton, then that's a bit of a stretch.

 

A lot of pokemon can beat tauros, so not really sure what you're getting at there. Chansey doesn't make tauros unviable, I'd say aerodactyl, metagross, skarmory, and forretress are the things that make tauros not that great.

 

What special pokemon are you talking about? Most special attackers are still used and most have a way of beating chansey or take advantage of its constant seismic toss damage.

 

Usage is rarely a direct indicator of anything related to tiering. Metagross has 90% usage in doubles but that isn't going to be banned any time soon.

 

What proof do you have that chansey is the most centralizing pokemon? Do people run specific pokemon a significant amount just for chansey and no other pokemon?  Does chansey require a very specific counter? I'd say something like metagross or aerodactyl is more centralizing than chansey. Metagross has very few counters, if any at all, and you're basically forced to run 2-3 pokemon that can handle the different metagross sets to not get shredded by it. Aerodactyl is also centralizing as it shuts down so many offensive pokemon and you basically need to run a slow defensive pokemon that can switch in vs aero. No choice scarf is unfortunate as it makes aerodactyl very hard to take out without getting rock slide flinched to death. 

 

What kind of things would you like to see in a test ban for chansey? Increased magneton usage? More starmie usage? Less metagross usage? I'm fairly sure it won't really change usage that much outside of increasing porygon/umbreon usage and increasing magneton teams. 

[Laz]

Metagross is still the most used pokemon after several iterations of OU. Wish+protect aren't really op moves, considering every pokemon can learn protect, therefore everything could potentially scout cb moves. Almost every pokemon can learn toxic as well, although its usually not worth using because pretty much every pokemon has better offense than relying on toxic. Natural cure isn't inherently OP either. Is starmie OP? No. Arcanine is stopped by a lot of pokemon and lacks significant offense vs most of the meta, so its not surprising chansey is able to wall arcanine either. Metal sound is 85 acc so it hits 85% of the time. If you're really trying to claim that metal sound will miss two times in a row in order for chansey to beat magneton, then that's a bit of a stretch.

What special pokemon are you talking about? Most special attackers are still used and most have a way of beating chansey or take advantage of its constant seismic toss damage.

 

 

What proof do you have that chansey is the most centralizing pokemon?

 

What kind of things would you like to see in a test ban for chansey? Increased magneton usage? More starmie usage? Less metagross usage? I'm fairly sure it won't really change usage that much outside of increasing porygon/umbreon usage and increasing magneton teams. 

-You're saying that any poke can use protect to scout cb / trick, you also saying that any poke can use toxic, and lastly that NC ain't op cuz Sarmie has it too.
Well, tell me any poke other than chansey that can use wish + protect + toxic and has NC ability. All in 1 is what makes it great, and what makes it better than any other poke that can use protect, because chansey can scout, and at the same time if the move used against it is wrong, chansey will just not switch, and heal itself instead / or just pass the wish to another poke.

-Why is chansey the most centralizing poke ? its long lifespan is what makes it centralizing ( Metagross has a bit more % usage, but that can be beat easily thanks to slowbro's flame / forretress's earhtquake / swampert's earthquake / or even switching to magneton hp fire while it's locked on tpunch with a CB )

-Special pokes that can setup ( Espeon / Alakazam / xatu / girafarig / etc ) are not that used like you claim they are, just refer to the usage stats.

-What do I want to see in a test ban ? a meta where special pokes are equal to physical pokes.

[Spaintakula]

Well, tell me any poke other than chansey that can use wish + protect + toxic and has NC ability. All in 1 is what makes it great, and what makes it better than any other poke that can use protect, because chansey can scout, and at the same time if the move used against it is wrong

As Zebra said, Natural Cure isn't what makes chansey OP. And there's quite a few pokes who learn wish/protect/toxic/healbell, and even more when you take off heal bell. Honestly, I know we don't have the proper items or abilities fully yet, but people need to stop thinking a pokemon is ban material just because it can run a plethora of moves.

 

-Why is chansey the most centralizing poke ? its long lifespan is what makes it centralizing ( Metagross has a bit more % usage, but that can be beat easily thanks to slowbro's flame / forretress's earhtquake / swampert's earthquake / or even switching to magneton hp fire while it's locked on tpunch with a CB )

Not how it works, chansey also has counters, thing is, chansey's counters are offensive pokes who can abuse it's defensive role to possibly perform a sweep. If you look closely, all the counters to metagross you mentioned are walls and tanks who won't go further than just killing metagross if stupid enough to stay in.( not counting magneton because not really a counter lol).

 

 

-Special pokes that can setup ( Espeon / Alakazam / xatu / girafarig / etc ) are not that used like you claim they are, just refer to the usage stats.

HEY!

[BurntZebra]

-You're saying that any poke can use protect to scout cb / trick, you also saying that any poke can use toxic, and lastly that NC ain't op cuz Sarmie has it too.
Well, tell me any poke other than chansey that can use wish + protect + toxic and has NC ability. All in 1 is what makes it great, and what makes it better than any other poke that can use protect, because chansey can scout, and at the same time if the move used against it is wrong, chansey will just not switch, and heal itself instead / or just pass the wish to another poke.

-Why is chansey the most centralizing poke ? its long lifespan is what makes it centralizing ( Metagross has a bit more % usage, but that can be beat easily thanks to slowbro's flame / forretress's earhtquake / swampert's earthquake / or even switching to magneton hp fire while it's locked on tpunch with a CB )

-Special pokes that can setup ( Espeon / Alakazam / xatu / girafarig / etc ) are not that used like you claim they are, just refer to the usage stats.

-What do I want to see in a test ban ? a meta where special pokes are equal to physical pokes.

yeah pretty much. Just because chansey has such a shit movepool that its forced to run protect doesn't mean that its op. Natural cure isn't really directly OP and other special walls have nice abilities to allow them to bypass some status like umbreon synchronize, porygon trace, venusaur's immunity. 

 

Metagross can beat slowbro with shadow ball or meteor mash attack boost+thunderpunch, can beat forretress with hidden power fire. Swampert can potentially come in but doesn't like taking a sp atk invested psychic. Wouldn't want to rely on trapping metagross with magneton, especially considering chansey can be trapped by diglett/trapinch. 

 

Xatu and girafarig are NU so I have no idea what you're trying to get at. Espeon and alakazam are getting some usage now, but they also have a huge issue with aerodactyl, metagross, and dragon dance gyarados. They're also very hard to switch in because of their lower hp/def base stats. 

 

Don't you understand? SPECIAL POKEMON CANNOT BE EQUAL TO PHYSICAL POKEMON IN THIS META. WE HAVE NO LIFE ORB, NO CHOICE SPECS, NO CHOICE SCARF, NO NASTY PLOT, NO FOCUS BLAST, NO PSYSHOCK, MISSING ABILITIES, ETC. THERE IS NO WAY FOR SPECIAL ATTACKERS TO COMPETE WITH CHOICE BAND MONS THAT OUTSPEED ALL SPECIAL ATTACKERS. WE WOULD LITERALLY HAVE TO BAN EVERY SPECIAL WALL, AERODACTYL, TAUROS, SLAKING, AND METAGROSS TO MAKE SPECIAL ATTACKERS BETTER THAN PHYSICAL ATTACKERS.

 

that is all. 

[LuisPocho]

First: pory has no offensive power against wallbreaker and it gets worse once pory gets scouted, ursa doesnt care about 40 damage from ice beam (or 60 from triattack? 140 power facade 79 max damage; 33-40 if 70 power lol come on)

 

0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ursaring: 51-60 (30.9 - 36.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO

(51, 51, 51, 52, 52, 54, 54, 54, 55, 55, 57, 57, 57, 58, 58, 60)

 

and that´s if it´s not resisted, seismic toss is such a good move... porygon is good because its hability

 

Don't you understand? SPECIAL POKEMON CANNOT BE EQUAL TO PHYSICAL POKEMON IN THIS META. WE HAVE NO LIFE ORB, NO CHOICE SPECS, NO CHOICE SCARF, NO NASTY PLOT, NO FOCUS BLAST, NO PSYSHOCK, MISSING ABILITIES, ETC. THERE IS NO WAY FOR SPECIAL ATTACKERS TO COMPETE WITH CHOICE BAND MONS THAT OUTSPEED ALL SPECIAL ATTACKERS. WE WOULD LITERALLY HAVE TO BAN EVERY SPECIAL WALL, AERODACTYL, TAUROS, SLAKING, AND METAGROSS TO MAKE SPECIAL ATTACKERS BETTER THAN PHYSICAL ATTACKERS.

 

that is all. 

Second: maybe you are right... but maaaaybe if we remove the best special wall in the meta (umbreon and pory are no as good as chansey, by far, very far...) special attackers becomes viable enought and everything gets balanced... 

it´s a posibility, all those new moves and items were created for a game with blissey, dragons, snorlax... maybe special sweepers dont need those new toys in a meta withouth them... we should really try a test ban

[SpartacusGD]

Zebra is over defending chansey like a mother protecting her child.

-Chansey is the most used poke in the whole tier, if you can take it down, you have more % to win that battle, as it lets you use your special mons more freely.
-Chansey heals your pokes statuses, heals them with wish, can scout CB / trick users with Protect. Can break pokes attempting to set up with Seismic toss.
-Can use toxic to make Growth jolteon less effective. Can Auto-heal with Natural cure. Can grant more lifespan to walls such as skarm, forre, cloy.
-Makes def arcas go numb, can beat magneton 1v1 with seismic ( i wonder how often metal sound hits + the possibility to switch and come back )
-Chansey can beat Tauros just by healing itself
( 252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 249-294 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tauros Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 271-321 (75.9 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )
-Makes special pokes useless
-Chansey's usage is above 40%
-Most centralizing poke
-Nobody likes seeing its pooped pink tiny face

A Test ban is the most suited solution atm imo

Chansey can do those job but you make it sound so easy. And thats not the case if chansey wants to pass wish to a def wall it has to take a physical move in the face for example. And will be at like half hp for example and will have problems doing all those other things you mentioned next time. Chansey is actually over rated right now. Okay chansey is the most reliable sp def wall right now but whats the problem with that. Its just support and im sure all of you can beat a chansey.

[Robofiend]

Chansey can do those job but you make it sound so easy. And thats not the case if chansey wants to pass wish to a def wall it has to take a physical move in the face for example. And will be at like half hp for example and will have problems doing all those other things you mentioned next time. Chansey is actually over rated right now. Okay chansey is the most reliable sp def wall right now but whats the problem with that. Its just support and im sure all of you can beat a chansey.

>Chansey wishes on the switch
>Switches out on phys attack
>great success very nice

I'm not saying Chansey's broken necessarily, but it's not true that Chansey needs to take a hit by default.

I'm kind of open to the idea of test banning it but then again it's not really broken - it's just good at using its 2 sets (wish/protect and cleric) to win a match here and there. I've seen lots of new threats that abuse it (Growth/Leech Venusaur, SD Blaziken, pretty much any Metagross, Miltank, Trapinch etc.) and that gives me reason to believe that it's not de facto worth banning - it's causing at least some degree of innovation to occur instead of just stagnating everything like Gengar or Snorlax. Edited February 28, 2016 by Robofiend

[NikhilR]

Haze sludge bomb weezing doesn't seem that great tbh. Already lacks coverage if it drops one move for sludge bomb and loses even more coverage if it drops another move for haze. If no tbolt, it loses to taunt gyarados. If no flamethrower, it can't really beat heracross. 

 

Choice band blaziken is the inferior set for me at least, so there's no reason to say that it loses to pokemon that the swords dance set can beat. Swords dance set even has the option to run a bit of special defense or hp to survive slowbro surf. 

 

I made it to the finals of a few OU tournaments just by running metal sound magneton. It beat chansey, porygon, venusaur, arcanine, flygon, and metagross all in one go. Magneton's special attack is insane and has a very powerful stab attack to spam, while the things that resist electric are quite weak to hidden power (flygon/venusaur). 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

Espeon can pretty consistently beat chansey, as by the time chansey makes a move, espeon is already at +2 sp atk. If chansey goes for toxic, then espeon can attack at +2, if chansey goes for seismic toss, espeon can go to +3 then kill chansey before chansey can take out espeon with seismic toss. 

+3 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 186-219 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Umbreon beats espeon and alakazam much more consistently than chansey.  

 

You're right about haze sbomb weezing not being that great. I think wow / sbomb / painsplit / haze works fine but yeah it'll have trouble dealing with gyarados. Tbh flamethrower is overrated on weezing imo and you're better off with sbomb because of the extra stab power. Although its absence could hurt because Magneton or Fort can take advantage of that.

 

I quite agree that Choice Band set is inferior. For SD set, I guess Jolly is better since you can be in the speed tier to beat Adamant Hera but you'll also need to cut some attk evs along with speed to accomodate enough bulk to guarantee yourself living a surf from slowbro. A 100 hp evs puts you at 10% chance to get ohko'd but it sometimes makes you wonder if it's worth it. 

 

I'm happy that metal sound mag works for you. It's just that from what I've seen, Mag works only well in theory but I've never seen it actually beat a Chansey. I've seen it wear down P2 which can't break sub or Venusaurs without hp fire. 

 

Ehh I'm not sure about how the first thing a Chansey does, is toxic an espeon, because it's better to seismic toss right away since you get more damage in rather than trying to wear it out with poison. 

 

Could you show me with calcs how Umbreon beats Zam+Espeon?

[KaynineXL]

All I'm saying is, there is a certain group of people that do not use Chansey at all(I think) and they seem to be pretty successful, especially just lately.

[BurntZebra]

You're right about haze sbomb weezing not being that great. I think wow / sbomb / painsplit / haze works fine but yeah it'll have trouble dealing with gyarados. Tbh flamethrower is overrated on weezing imo and you're better off with sbomb because of the extra stab power. Although its absence could hurt because Magneton or Fort can take advantage of that.

 

I quite agree that Choice Band set is inferior. For SD set, I guess Jolly is better since you can be in the speed tier to beat Adamant Hera but you'll also need to cut some attk evs along with speed to accomodate enough bulk to guarantee yourself living a surf from slowbro. A 100 hp evs puts you at 10% chance to get ohko'd but it sometimes makes you wonder if it's worth it. 

 

I'm happy that metal sound mag works for you. It's just that from what I've seen, Mag works only well in theory but I've never seen it actually beat a Chansey. I've seen it wear down P2 which can't break sub or Venusaurs without hp fire. 

 

Ehh I'm not sure about how the first thing a Chansey does, is toxic an espeon, because it's better to seismic toss right away since you get more damage in rather than trying to wear it out with poison. 

 

Could you show me with calcs how Umbreon beats Zam+Espeon?

Jolly blaziken with 12 hp/242 attack/52 special defense/204 speed lets it outspeed adamant heracross, maximize attack, and have a 93.75% to take a surf from slowbro.

 

For some reason people love to run hp fire on magneton, which is not really worth it, as being able to hit a huge threat like flygon or swampert is much more important than trying to switch in on an earthquake forretress, potentially risking your magneton. People would usually try to bring in flygon vs magneton if substitute wasn't up and I was able to get several flygon ohko's. Magneton pretty much beat frags on its own one match, as it took out hp fire venusaur+arcanine+chansey without too much trouble. Leech seed venusaur and wish users can make magneton live for a while, especially when chansey is leech seeded. 

 

Well if chansey doesn't toxic espeon, then morning sun calm mind espeon will just beat chansey as once it gets to +3 (or +4 if its not sp atk invested), then espeon will 2hko chansey. I used both situations to show how chansey can't win that matchup vs espeon, regardless of the plays it makes. If chansey switches out, then you are proving my point. 

 

Unless you're giving alakazam+espeon more than one free turn to set up, then I'm not sure what part of the equation you're confused on. If umbreon 2hkos espeon and potentially ohkos alakazam, while it is only 3hko'ed by +1 signal beam, then I don't see how the psychic types can win. 

[NikhilR]

Jolly blaziken with 12 hp/242 attack/52 special defense/204 speed lets it outspeed adamant heracross, maximize attack, and have a 93.75% to take a surf from slowbro.

 

For some reason people love to run hp fire on magneton, which is not really worth it, as being able to hit a huge threat like flygon or swampert is much more important than trying to switch in on an earthquake forretress, potentially risking your magneton. People would usually try to bring in flygon vs magneton if substitute wasn't up and I was able to get several flygon ohko's. Magneton pretty much beat frags on its own one match, as it took out hp fire venusaur+arcanine+chansey without too much trouble. Leech seed venusaur and wish users can make magneton live for a while, especially when chansey is leech seeded. 

 

Well if chansey doesn't toxic espeon, then morning sun calm mind espeon will just beat chansey as once it gets to +3 (or +4 if its not sp atk invested), then espeon will 2hko chansey. I used both situations to show how chansey can't win that matchup vs espeon, regardless of the plays it makes. If chansey switches out, then you are proving my point. 

 

Unless you're giving alakazam+espeon more than one free turn to set up, then I'm not sure what part of the equation you're confused on. If umbreon 2hkos espeon and potentially ohkos alakazam, while it is only 3hko'ed by +1 signal beam, then I don't see how the psychic types can win. 

 

Ahh right spdef evs, my bad.

 

I think hp ice is the best hp to have for overall coverage. Bulky swamps can switch in with ease but choice band ones get screwed by the lack of recovery. Well what wish user is viable atm, outside of Chansey? There really isn't any which makes it hard for Mag to continue to stay alive since it can't switch in on Chansey either. Leech Seed venu gets screwed with lack of hp fire and that could be problematic. 

 

Morning Sun espeon needs quite a few hp evs in order to beat Chansey. Also lets not forget that morning sun is only 8 pp, so I doubt whether it's enough for espeon to still come out victorious. I ran calc with espeon having 180 hp investment with enough speed to beat adamant flygon.

 

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 180 HP Espeon: 50-50 (30.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

^That's the only way I see espeon beating Chansey with ease. Also, if you're going to run morning sun on Espeon, it makes it all the more easy for Chansey to toxic and switch out since the turn you morning sun IS predictable. Because Chansey has NC, it can switch back in and act like nothing has happened. Note that I haven't used lum and used lefties and can alter the calcs depending on how you want the items. 

 

Zebra, the below calcs show how Espeon can beat Umbreon:

 

+1 252 SpA Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 74-90 (45.3 - 55.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For Zam:

 

+1 252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 80-96 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 90-108 (69.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Umbreon comes out victorious, but it's left with only 20% hp remaining. That certainly shows that Umbreon cannot deal with Zam / Espy the same way Chansey does. 

[BurntZebra]

Ahh right spdef evs, my bad.

 

I think hp ice is the best hp to have for overall coverage. Bulky swamps can switch in with ease but choice band ones get screwed by the lack of recovery. Well what wish user is viable atm, outside of Chansey? There really isn't any which makes it hard for Mag to continue to stay alive since it can't switch in on Chansey either. Leech Seed venu gets screwed with lack of hp fire and that could be problematic. 

 

Morning Sun espeon needs quite a few hp evs in order to beat Chansey. Also lets not forget that morning sun is only 8 pp, so I doubt whether it's enough for espeon to still come out victorious. I ran calc with espeon having 180 hp investment with enough speed to beat adamant flygon.

 

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 180 HP Espeon: 50-50 (30.6 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

^That's the only way I see espeon beating Chansey with ease. Also, if you're going to run morning sun on Espeon, it makes it all the more easy for Chansey to toxic and switch out since the turn you morning sun IS predictable. Because Chansey has NC, it can switch back in and act like nothing has happened. Note that I haven't used lum and used lefties and can alter the calcs depending on how you want the items. 

 

Zebra, the below calcs show how Espeon can beat Umbreon:

 

+1 252 SpA Espeon Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 74-90 (45.3 - 55.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

For Zam:

 

+1 252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 80-96 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 90-108 (69.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Umbreon comes out victorious, but it's left with only 20% hp remaining. That certainly shows that Umbreon cannot deal with Zam / Espy the same way Chansey does. 

84 hp evs on espeon is all you need to survive 3 seismic tosses. Assuming chansey comes in while espeon calm minds, then espeon gets to +3 and 2hkos chansey, before chansey can ko espeon. If chansey flat out loses to espeon, then umbreon beating espeon with ~20% hp is obviously better than just dying. Attack evs are nice on umbreon, as it lets you pressure special attackers a lot more, and allows it to 2hko most variants of espeon. 

 

+3 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 186-219 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[DoubleJ]

This is another DoubleJ POV of the OU meta, but it might be somewhat helpful. I honestly feel like Chansey doesn't fit that "too good not to use" mold that has gotten things like Snorlax and Blissey banned. I haven't ever used one, even during my recent 2nd place run through the MVP Cup or my championship run in the OU Showdown series. There are very valuable special walls outside of Chansey that offer the metagame more than just a wish pass and a pivot. Porygon2 is an incredible Gyarados counter, and has the versatility to keep things like Metagross from freely switching in (HP Fire and Thunderwave). 

 

So with that said, imo, Chansey should probs stay in the tier. It's a great defensive option in a tier with some fairly scary special threats, but it really isn't much more beyond that. Sure, if both parties are uncreative and run the same Chansey stall team there will be a 200-turn match, but as evidenced in recent OU tournaments, players are learning how to get creative with their wallbreakers and you're starting to see some truly unique sets (WHICH IS FUCKING AWESOME!). 

 

tl;dr I like to beat chansey teams. Keep 'em around.

 

[spoiler] Shameless plug to bring back Snorlax [/spoiler]

[Robofiend]

Yeah I agree with JJ - Chansey just isn't "too good not to use"- Trace / NC Pokemon abuse the toxic stall (and most have recovery), Trapinch hard stops it, Trickbanders exist, Guts is always an option, and spikes, Magneton, Venusaur, and Calm Minders have ways of making its life harder. While it is annoying and somewhat centralizing, there are options to stop it and people have been using them to win battles, somewhat unlike Blissey or Snorlax back in the day.