[UU Discussion] Slowking

[DrCraig]

Slowking is one of the top tier defensive threats in UU right now. It is capable of walling Hitmonlee and most Scizor sets, and can also act as the best pivot in the game with incredible defenses and instant recovery. Its only true counters are Crawdaunt and Sharpedo, with the latter seeing little to no usage. Slowking users though have found how to disrupt Crawdaunt switch-ins by carrying Thunder Wave, which has become a very dangerous form of support throughout the tier. Slowking is at the point where some think it is too good not to run.

Slowking is viewed by many to stagnate the meta, while others feel it fits into UU nicely. The UU Council would like to see some discussion on this beast to understand the community's viewpoint on Slowking within the tier. And as a side, discussion does not mean we're going to ban Slowking. We just want to hear the community input on whether it could potentially be broken or even unhealthy for the tier. 


Calm Mind
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef

• Calm Mind
• Psychic
• Surf / Flamethrower
• Slack Off / Rest

Support King
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef

• Psychic
• Surf / Flamethrower
• Thunder Wave / Toxic
• Slack Off / Rest

Coverage King
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Bold
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef

• Psychic
• Surf / Signal Beam / Ice Beam
• Flamethrower
• Slack Off / Rest

Thanks to DoubleJJ for the write up. :)

 

[hr]

 

So  basically the TC has been discussion Slowking for like 2 months. Right now we are in a tough spot deciding how to fix the tier. Among Slowking, Scizor, Kangaskhan and all of the other generic core walls such as Vileplume, it is difficult to determine what is a problem. Slowking has been argued as being centralizing while others are viewing Scizor as doing that. Some also argue Slowking is stagnating the meta through it's strength listed above. To clarify, we also aren't at a 'To ban or not to ban' stand still. Community input is greatly appreciated.

 

A Scizor thread will be coming along too.

[fredrichnietze]

wheres my wall build? 

 

"you shall not pass set: it will only die to swords dance users. it can stall out the rest steels shut it down but they will not break through

iron defense

toxic

amnesia

rest"

[RysPicz]

I'll allow myself, to quote myself from discussion request thread:

 

I was actually struggling with myself on what I should hop on first, friends think that Sciz is the real problem, I've seen people been spitting on Vileplume as it's literally in half of UU teams, and personally I want to jump on Slowking... I guess I'll stick to what I had in my mind. Everything will come in it's time I guess.

 

I would like to request for a discussion thread for Slowking.

Usually before I request a thread or ban, I build a broken poke myself and use it to prove how broken it is (see: Zam, Zard, Rhydon). Unfortunately in this example I do not run Slowking (although, I REALLY DID) but I've been observing a lot of tournaments and I hope that my experience from observations is enough to prove that it's place is in BL and not in UU.

 

1. Typing

 

Slowking's typing allows it to wall the most common and usually also most powerful threats in the metagame, giving it switches for practically 70% of the metagame. It's typing at first was used only to wall the omnipotent (and omnipresent) Hitmonlee who's STAB CB Superpower, as well as other coverage moves, was plowing through tier without any mercy. Now it grew to a top tier wall, able to wall majority of the viable pokes in UU.

It's typing grants it resistance to 6 attack types but most importantly, Water, Fighting and Fire. STAB Waterfalls, STAB Superpowers are nothing to it, and if/ when it gets hit by DEdge or Return, it can simply use Slack Off to recover the moves while you wear your own sweeper down with DEdge since Return rarely 2shots it (even with stab!).

 

2. Base stats

 

The base stats are making it an incredibly potent physical wall for UU standards. 95/80 is nothing to laugh at, as it's easily comparable to Blastoise's bulk, while Stoise does not have reliable recovery and resistance to fighting. Even most powerful physical strikers have huge trouble breaking through this defensive behemoth, wearing themselves down from both PP and HP (because Return does not 2shot in most cases) while it slacks off in your face. Good thing it doesn't have Regenerator here yet...

Another mentionable thing is it's really great natural 110 base special defense, that makes even the strongest of our special attackers in tier being unable to oneshot it. While it calm minds or slacks off or statuses them. But for that, another point has to be made. Anyway, continuing with base stats, it has a very good 100 base special attack stat, making it's both STABs being fired off a respectable 120 special attack stat that might (and usually is) get boosted further with Calm Mind. It's only downside is the 30 base speed, making it being outspeeded by practically entire metagame bar Shuckle but that's actually it.

 

3. Movepool

 

Slowking's movepool is absolutely insane, making it unpredictable to such a degree that it can counter literally every of it's checks.

Crawdaunt? It can Signal Beam or Thunder Wave.

Another Slowking? Toxic to slowly wear it down, or Signal Beam/ Shadow Ball to deal some damage to it.

Scizor? Have a tasty flamethrower in yo face.

Rarely, when Altaria comes to try setting up DD or with a weird restbell tox set, it can even icebeam it's ass.

Exeggutor would look reliable, but I doubt it'd like Signal Beam or Flamethrower. Especially the first one.

Obviously with such a large movepool, it's practically impossible to cover all the necessary threats thus Slowking suffers a strong 4MSS, which does not really stop it from doing it's job- walling the meta like a... king.

Slowking's most important move is Slack Off, which made both Slowking and Slowbro top threats in their respectable tiers. Pairing it with Calm Mind, very often changes Slowking into undefeatable walking battle tank with both sides of it's defense powerful enough to swallow any strike and retaliate with a boosted special attack.

 

Problem is that you cannot really predict what Slowking will throw on you until it already does, and the most reliable switch-in for it without Umbreon and Porygon2, became Clefable or Kanga, and you can see that in usage statistics. The biggest reason of spike in their usage is their ability to stop Slowking from statusing your whole team or scare it off with Tox while shrugging off the status of it's own with Aroma/ Rest. No offensive pokemon (unless you know Slowking has Twave and you are brave enough to switch in your Manectric, or you know it has toxic and your Swellow just waits to get the Guts Facade boost) will risk getting statused.

And obviously the Slowking v Slowking matchups where we got the delightful CM war and "who gets the first crit" which I've seen happening few times although the status version of Slowking is taking over.

 

Only solution to defeat Slowking is to wear it down with Toxic. Or crit it with a powerful STAB Thunderbolt or Crunch if you are overToasted.

 

Reassuming:

 

Slowking:

+Spreads status
+Bulky enough on both sides to wall absolute majority of metagame, especially after a CM boost
+Delightful CM wars
+Reliable recovery
+Strong dual STAB
+Great SATK stat for a wall
+Insane movepool


-Slow

 

I'd really like to at least see a discussion thread for it as in almost every tournament it's in top 3 most used pokemon along with Plume.

[DrCraig]

I'll allow myself, to quote myself from discussion request thread:

 

I was actually struggling with myself on what I should hop on first, friends think that Sciz is the real problem, I've seen people been spitting on Vileplume as it's literally in half of UU teams, and personally I want to jump on Slowking... I guess I'll stick to what I had in my mind. Everything will come in it's time I guess.

 

I would like to request for a discussion thread for Slowking.

Usually before I request a thread or ban, I build a broken poke myself and use it to prove how broken it is (see: Zam, Zard, Rhydon). Unfortunately in this example I do not run Slowking (although, I REALLY DID) but I've been observing a lot of tournaments and I hope that my experience from observations is enough to prove that it's place is in BL and not in UU.

 

1. Typing

 

Slowking's typing allows it to wall the most common and usually also most powerful threats in the metagame, giving it switches for practically 70% of the metagame. It's typing at first was used only to wall the omnipotent (and omnipresent) Hitmonlee who's STAB CB Superpower, as well as other coverage moves, was plowing through tier without any mercy. Now it grew to a top tier wall, able to wall majority of the viable pokes in UU.

Alright

i hate that the forum makes this huge

So of this list, Slowking's typing gives it trouble against Kanga, Manectric, Vileplume, Tentacruel, Breloom, Houndoom, Lanturn, Cradily, Crawdaunt, Haunter, Exeggutor, Granbull, Absol and Amph. The typing isn't too cool. Not to mention much of that list can toss toxic at Slowkings face. Aside from Hitmonlee, I cannot see what Slowking's amazing typing could be making unviable. Hitmonlee seems to be the only significant pokemon which would be used more. RIP Weelee.

makes these huge now

 

It's typing grants it resistance to 6 attack types but most importantly, Water, Fighting and Fire. STAB Waterfalls, STAB Superpowers are nothing to it, and if/ when it gets hit by DEdge or Return, it can simply use Slack Off to recover the moves while you wear your own sweeper down with DEdge since Return rarely 2shots it (even with stab!).

Yea, Slowking is undeniably a strong mon, and a safe mon. I don't think it is doing anything overboard.

 

2. Base stats

 

The base stats are making it an incredibly potent physical wall for UU standards. 95/80 is nothing to laugh at, as it's easily comparable to Blastoise's bulk, while Stoise does not have reliable recovery and resistance to fighting. Even most powerful physical strikers have huge trouble breaking through this defensive behemoth, wearing themselves down from both PP and HP (because Return does not 2shot in most cases) while it slacks off in your face. Good thing it doesn't have Regenerator here yet...

Another mentionable thing is it's really great natural 110 base special defense, that makes even the strongest of our special attackers in tier being unable to oneshot it. While it calm minds or slacks off or statuses them. But for that, another point has to be made. Anyway, continuing with base stats, it has a very good 100 base special attack stat, making it's both STABs being fired off a respectable 120 special attack stat that might (and usually is) get boosted further with Calm Mind. It's only downside is the 30 base speed, making it being outspeeded by practically entire metagame bar Shuckle but that's actually it.

Slowkings stats are great, but it's typing is not the best for meta where many of the banders beat the living shit out it. Slowking is overal bulk makes it a safe switch option in most cases. It is able to switch in on a bunch of SE, which is useful.

3. Movepool

 

Slowking's movepool is absolutely insane

I did not know Slowking's movepool was insane. Truth is, nobody does, it's not insane.

You must run Flamethrower to counter Scizor, else why are you even running Slowking. You need Slack off because it is the optimal recovery move. Now you run Psychic or Surf for coverage and you have a 4th slow for either CM, Toxic or Twave. Focus Punch if your gimmicky.

-Slack Off

-Flamethrower/Surf if you really want it

-Surf/Psychic

-CM/Toxic/Twave

And the build is exactly the same for all sets?

I don't see the insanity. Signal Beam restricts you hard.

 

, making it unpredictable to such a degree that it can counter literally every of it's checks.

Crawdaunt? It can Signal Beam or Thunder Wave. No.

Another Slowking? Toxic to slowly wear it down, or Signal Beam/ Shadow Ball to deal some damage to it. 

Scizor? Have a tasty flamethrower in yo face. 

Rarely, when Altaria comes to try setting up DD or with a weird restbell tox set, it can even icebeam it's ass. Altaria is going to beat you unless you run a gimmicky set. Ice beam is not good.

Exeggutor would look reliable, but I doubt it'd like Signal Beam or Flamethrower. Especially the first one. Exeggutor cant even kill it, why is this a check counter that is relevant?

Obviously with such a large No movepool, it's practically impossible to cover all the necessary threats thus Slowking suffers a strong 4MSS, :D :D which does not really stop it from doing it's job- :( :( walling the meta like a... king.

Slowking's most important move is Slack Off, which made both Slowking and Slowbro top threats in their respectable tiers. Pairing it with Calm Mind, very often changes Slowking into undefeatable walking battle tank with both sides of it's defense powerful enough to swallow any strike and retaliate with a boosted special attack.

 

Problem is that you cannot really predict what Slowking will throw on you until it already does, and the most reliable switch-in for it without Umbreon and Porygon2, became Clefable or Kanga, and you can see that in usage statistics. The biggest reason of spike in their usage is their ability to stop Slowking from statusing your whole team or scare it off with Tox while shrugging off the status of it's own with Aroma/ Rest. No offensive pokemon (unless you know Slowking has Twave and you are brave enough to switch in your Manectric, or you know it has toxic and your Swellow just waits to get the Guts Facade boost) will risk getting statused.

And obviously the Slowking v Slowking matchups where we got the delightful CM war and "who gets the first crit" which I've seen happening few times although the status version of Slowking is taking over.

I see the problem now. Slowking's which are capable of running Surf, Ice, Flame, Psychic, SignalBeam, Twave, Toxic, Rest and Slack off ruin the meta.

Only solution to defeat Slowking is to wear it down with Toxic. Or crit it with a powerful STAB Thunderbolt or Crunch if you are overToasted.

 

Reassuming:

 

Slowking:

+Spreads status
+Bulky enough on both sides to wall absolute majority of metagame, especially after a CM boost
+Delightful CM wars
+Reliable recovery
+Strong dual STAB
+Great SATK stat for a wall
+Insane movepool


-Slow

 

I'd really like to at least see a discussion thread for it as in almost every tournament it's in top 3 most used pokemon along with Plume.

I know this is only a discussion request, and I'm taking it you want it banned. What exactly would it be banned for, and don't say uber characteristics. It seems to me that Slowking is a safe option to run, but I don't see what is making much safer than Scizor, Vileplume, Kangaskhan and other generic core walls. Is Slowking pressuring the tier too much? I don't see much evidence of gimmicks and set specific sets. Nothing which would not be run if Slowking didn't exist. Slowking really isn't discouraging the use of much besides Hitmonlee. With Scizor being as viable it is, Scizor is a team staple, and it's usage is plain correlating to high Slowking usage.

 

edit:

here's a tl;dr I don't know for what reason you think Slowking is banworthy, but I think it's power was a bit exaggerated

Edited December 12, 2015 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

Old grumpy Craig challenged me today while I was awaiting my PSL match to come up with reasons for a potential Slowking ban. So in opposition of his post above and to answer his questioning, here are a few reasons to support a ban of Slowking in UU.

 

1. Slowking constricts team building. 

 

This may seem silly to some, but here me out. Slowking is incredibly bulky for the UU tier and can swallow a large number of physical and special attacks. It is a two-way defensive juggernaut with 95/80/110 defense stats with a base 100 special attack. It has twin stabs that are only resisted by Crawdaunt, Exeggutor, and little used Sharpedo. To top it all off, Slowking has an instant recovery move and access to Calm Mind for a potential sweep. 

 

UU is a game of survival that consists of powerful defensive cores and fast frail sweepers. You do not want to risk damage to your sweepers and you do not want to take status on your walls. Slowking threatens to do both. The only wall that can safely swap into Slowking is bulky Kangaskhan, which is likely due to its access to Rest + Early Bird. The only viable Kangaskhan set in UU right now is 252/252+ SpDef, and I believe it is mostly because it offers one of the few safe answers to Slowking. Unfortunately, thanks to Slowking's immense bulk, the only significant thing Kangaskhan can do to Slowking is Toxic it, putting a strangle hold on Kangaskhan's move-set that is already bogged down by a Normal STAB, Fire Punch for Scizor, and Rest for longevity. 

 

Here are some calcs to prove that there are very few safe Slowking switch-ins, even against the standard Surf + Psychic set. 

 

[spoiler]

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kangaskhan: 45-54 (21.2 - 25.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

0 Atk Choice Band Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 81-96 (40 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The best answer to Slowking. It can switch in, deliver a bit of damage, Rest off any status, and deliver status. Unfortunately this is the only Kang set that is worth running because of this. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 66-78 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 176-208 (99.4 - 117.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 79-94 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 124-148 (61.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Common Scizor sets that counter top threats like Swellow do not fair well against Slowking. A Scizor that is a successful check for Slowking will need to carry Swords Dance + Morning Sun, will need to drop Steel Wing for Return, will need to run 252/252+ SpDef, and will need to ensure that Slowking does not have Flamethrower. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 25-30 (12.3 - 14.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

Hysterically enough, Slowking is a great switch into Slowking, as only Toxic can reliably defeat the other Slowking. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric: 76-90 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric: 114-135 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Manectric can fair well against Slowking, but it needs to predict in order to come in safely otherwise it is losing half or more health. If a Slowking is able to use one turn of Calm Mind before Manectric can switch in, then that Manectric can either be stalled out or outright killed if it has even just 20% damage (looking for Spikes). 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 87-103 (63.9 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Swellow Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Swellow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 94-112 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Swellow cannot switch into Slowking without taking a huge chunk of health from it. If it comes in for a revenge kill it can do very little. Meanwhile Slowking threatens it with an outright kill, paralysis, or even stall via Slack Off. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 114-134 (62.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 80-96 (39.6 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 168-198 (92.3 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 54-66 (26.7 - 32.6%) -- 47.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Vileplume can take everything Slowking tosses at it, outside of STAB Psychic, and retaliate back with Giga Drain for a strong STAB and also a bit of recovery. Unfortunately if Slowking is +1, then Vileplume is useless.

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Altaria: 37-45 (20.3 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 28-34 (13.8 - 16.8%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 112-133 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Altaria: 111-132 (60.9 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Altaria and Slowking play to somewhat of a stalemate, but even then Slowking has the upper hand if it carries Thunder Wave (simply swaps out to a threat that can OHKO Altaria with 4x Ice Beam) or if it carries Calm Mind. The only successful Altaria set against Slowking is a bulky one with Toxic, which to me seems fairly centralizing since Altaria cannot Toxic stall any of the other common walls outside of Exeggutor (Kangaskhan has Rest, Vileplume is immune, and Scizor is immune). 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 86-104 (55.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tentacruel Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 58-70 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Not a good match-up at all. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 152-182 (111.7 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Breloom Bullet Seed (3 Hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 162-192 (80.1 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

If Breloom can come in safely it has a chance of being a quality offensive threat to Slowking. Unfortunately it needs to be Adamant (rip speed) or have Bullet Seed hit 4+ times to even stand a chance. This is because non-invested Slowking Psychic is a guaranteed OHKO. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 162-192 (98.1 - 116.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 76-91 (46 - 55.1%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO

 

Donphan may be a safer switch into Slowking than you think, considering Slowking is more likely to drop Surf over Psychic and possibly carry Thunder Wave as well, unfortunately though if Slowking does have Surf, most Donphan either die on the switch in or die after delivering just over half damage with a STAB CB EQ. This is a pokemon with a base 120 Attack, Choice Band, and a base 100 STAB attack that fails to do over 60% to Slowking. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 132-156 (88 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Not a very positive match-up. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 244 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 61-73 (29.6 - 35.4%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 105-124 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

A bulky Choice Band user that doesn't take much on the switch-in. Unfortunately to do any relatively positive damage to Slowking, Azu needs to use Double-Edge, and barring any crit Slowking can just Slack Off and stall the Azu with recoil damage. A paralyzed Azumarill kind of sucks too if it happens to take a Thunder Wave.

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 42-51 (20.7 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Slowking: 50-50 (24.7 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

With great bulk, Clefable can easily switch into any Slowking attack and giggle at it. It can then Wish + Protect stall or slough off any status attack with Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. Consider Clefable a quality counter if it has Toxic, a check if it doesn't. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 52 HP / 148 SpD Lanturn: 54-64 (26 - 30.9%) -- 10.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 52 HP / 148 SpD Lanturn: 79-94 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Lanturn Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 78-92 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Consider Lanturn a better Manectric when it comes to handling Slowking. It can switch into any attacking move and can swallow up Thunder Wave considering its typing. Unfortunately a CM Slowking can prove problematic, as well as one that carries Toxic. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 37-45 (19.1 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Cradily Bullet Seed (3 Hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Cradily is an incredible check for Slowking considering it has an SE STAB, can swallow Slowking's attacks, and can also set-up on it with Curse. Unfortunately it really doesn't like Toxic and can thus be stalled out by Slowking if it carries it. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 96-114 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 80-95 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Slowking is a notorious counter to Hitmonlee. Hitmonlee can do very little outside of DE, but even then it fails to 2HKO and can get stalled out with Slack Off for recoil damage or just get hit by Psychic for massive damage. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 42-51 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 63.9% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Crawdaunt is an amazing switch-in against Slowking, as it only really fears Thunder Wave, or a gimmicky Focus Punch/Signal Beam (scouters gonna scout). 

 

0 SpA Slowking Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haunter: 164-194 (136.6 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Not a very favorable match-up.

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor: 102-120 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Resisting both of Slowking's stabs, Exegg is a great switch-in as it only fears a rare Flamethrower or Toxic. Consider Exegg a decent check to Slowking. 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Granbull: 81-96 (49 - 58.1%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Granbull Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 120-142 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Granbull has the bulk to come in and take an attack from Slowking, but unfortunately it will fail to kill Slowking with STAB CB Double-Edge and probably kill itself with recoil in the meantime. This is one of the hardest hitting and bulkiest physical attackers we have, and its most common set fails to beat Slowking. It would need to make itself susceptible to the rest of the tier in order to beat Slowking (going bulky). 

 

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Omastar: 72-85 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking: 56-66 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- 75.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Omastar needs Toxic to do anything to Slowking. It also has a tough time switching in

[/spoiler]

 

These are all of the UU Pokemon with greater than 10% usage right now. From this list only 252/252+ SpDef Kangaskhan, Slowking, Crawdaunt, Exeggutor, Altaria, Lanturn, Clefable, and Cradily can reliably switch in. From that list we can remove Exegg, Lanturn, and Cradily if they are hit with Toxic on the switch-in. 

 

2. Slowking is versatile

 

From the above list, there are only a few safe switches in our tier for Slowking. With this in mind, Slowking can easily adapt to counter these threats by carrying Toxic, Focus Punch, or some other variation with its incredibly deep move-pool. I wouldn't consider Slowking limited by 4MSS as it has one dominating set that requires very little alteration to be successful in this meta (Psychic + Surf + Slack Off + CM/Toxic). 

 

3. Slowking is too good not to use

 

Slowking as noted has very few switch ins and can rack up damage on your team very quickly. It can also function as a wonderful pivot with instant recovery. It is also easily supported by a cleric and other supporting defensive types, as well as Diglett or Trapinch which can remove Clef and/or Kangaskhan, the two most reliable counters. 

 

4. Slowking promotes stall in an already stall heavy tier

 

If one of the few safe switch ins for Slowking is Slowking, then what are we doing? We commonly see Slowking coming in on Slowkings and trying to Toxic the other. 

Edited December 12, 2015 by DoubleJ

[fredrichnietze]

"Kangaskhan, Slowking, Crawdaunt, Exeggutor, Altaria, Lanturn, Clefable, and Cradily can reliably switch in. From that list we can remove Exegg, Lanturn, and Cradily if they are hit with Toxic on the switch-in. "

 

clefable without toxic is just set up bait for cm slak. and if king gets para'd or burned then toxic isnt going to do any good. since 3 of your counters rely on toxic, and burn/para from things like twave, every electric move, every fire move, b slam, and tri attack. i would not consider toxic a solid counter. 

also you cant counter a pokemon with it's self so slowking is out.

 

this leaves crawdawnt and clefable. crawdaunt can flat out kill since no one runs signal beam slowking right? and clefable can toxic unless you run into rest slowking which is unlikely or unless over the corse of the battle slowking gets status form something other then toxic. in which case your screwed. 

unless clefable runs amnesia + healing and stalls for days baring crits?

 

sorry if this is a little rambling i havent slept in idk how long.

[DoubleJ]

 

"Kangaskhan, Slowking, Crawdaunt, Exeggutor, Altaria, Lanturn, Clefable, and Cradily can reliably switch in. From that list we can remove Exegg, Lanturn, and Cradily if they are hit with Toxic on the switch-in. "

 

clefable without toxic is just set up bait for cm slak. and if king gets para'd or burned then toxic isnt going to do any good. since 3 of your counters rely on toxic, and burn/para from things like twave, every electric move, every fire move, b slam, and tri attack. i would not consider toxic a solid counter. 

also you cant counter a pokemon with it's self so slowking is out.

 

this leaves crawdawnt and clefable. crawdaunt can flat out kill since no one runs signal beam slowking right? and clefable can toxic unless you run into rest slowking which is unlikely or unless over the corse of the battle slowking gets status form something other then toxic. in which case your screwed. 

unless clefable runs amnesia + healing and stalls for days baring crits?

 

sorry if this is a little rambling i havent slept in idk how long.

 

 

No, this is helpful Fred. I think it's beneficial to hear all of the input we can so that the tier council can make an educated decision when it comes time to making a decision. 

[DaftCoolio]

yea idk what to think about slowking but i thought id throw in my 2 cents.

 

1. Slowking constricts team building. 

 

2. Slowking is versatile

 

3. Slowking is too good not to use

 

4. Slowking promotes stall in an already stall heavy tier

 

 

1. Personally the extent to which it limited my team building was just making sure I had toxic on at least one of my pokemon as well as I guess making sure that every pokemon could at least hit it for neutral damage (eg not just running just steel wing and superpower on scizor), its a top tier threat, every tier is gonna have one so I dont think those changes were too absurd. 

 

In saying that i agree with what fred said above about toxic not being a solid counter because of things like para or burn. I wouldn't really consider craw reliable when surf can 3hko and the threat of thunder wave. #roarkangawhen

 

2. fuckin aye it is, i think counter is also worth mentioning aswell. but that thunder wave can be a killa

 

3. being on only 38% usage the majority disagrees with you. i dont know what else to say about this as i feel like its personal opinion. 

 

4. i think i'm reading this wrong, let me know if i am, but my response is under the interpretation that because of slowking people are gonna run more stall teams. idk if it promotes stall, it certainly makes it easier though. Whether you want to run a stall/balanced/offensive team imo is personal preference. But i think UU has the wall breakers (craw,scizor, maybe breloom, as well as others when combined well) that it doesn't make stall completely superior.  

 

The "safe switch ins" thing kinda annoys me. Rhydon (im gonna regret bringing him into this) had no viable switch ins. Slowking does, there are multiple pokemon that you listed that can switch in and maybe we just need to adapt a pokemon instead of banning everything that we can't stop with what we usually use. 

 

My heart wants it to go my brain thinks it should stay.

Edited December 12, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[OrangeManiac]

@JJ

 

I have to nitpick on something.

 

Slowking does not really make the tier more stall-heavy. The tier is rather defensive right now, everyone acknowledges it. But the absence of Slowking wouldn't make offensive teams that notably more viable. Plume + Kangaskhan does most of the work walling the tier and what comes to Slowking, it only makes Hitmonlee notably less viable (and Scizor but it might be banworthy on it own without Slowking). Most offensive threats have fairly good moves to break Slowking. Crawdaunt, Breloom, Manectric, CB Donphan, Granbull, Haunter... I know it was only your 4th point so therefor not the biggest argument of your point but I think it's a bit wrong to assume without Slowking the defense would get notably less viable.

 

What comes to Slowking as a Pokemon, I think it all goes down to how much effort do you need to teambuild against it. Like you said.. It's amazing mon, it has nice diversity with the selection of moves and perhaps it is just too good to use. For the other part of the comment I mostly agree to but just something I'd like to point out which was also discussed with the council.

 

I think Slowking does need serious teambuilding against it. Not only is it good as a defensive pivot but its offensive capabilities are often underrated. If you don't bring that Loom/Crawdaunt this thing might easily Calm Mind sweep you with very little effort. Pokemon like Manectric, Donphan, Granbull are usually scared shitless to move in so they need a prediction or a free turn (revenge kill). After just 1 Calm Mind special attackers have really tough time breaking that 110 sp. Def +1 even with super effectives. For me, this is the issue more with the Slowking than the defensive pivot capabilities.

Edited December 12, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[DoubleJ]

With Slowking you either need to commit to a hyper offensive strategy or a defensive one, as balanced teams lack the fire power to continuously switch in and take shots at Slowking and its supportive core. I'm not sure if all of you read through my calcs, but it seems Slowking can take a good chunk out of pretty much every offensive threat in the game (or cripple it if you're considering Crawdaunt). The only truly safe answers to Slowking are other defensive options with Toxic, which is why I said Slowking promotes stall. 

[DaftCoolio]

With Slowking you either need to commit to a hyper offensive strategy or a defensive one, as balanced teams lack the fire power to continuously switch in and take shots at Slowking and its supportive core. I'm not sure if all of you read through my calcs, but it seems Slowking can take a good chunk out of pretty much every offensive threat in the game (or cripple it if you're considering Crawdaunt). The only truly safe answers to Slowking are other defensive options with Toxic, which is why I said Slowking promotes stall. 

I disagree, I think a balanced team is still viable. Sure defensive options may be the only safe switch ins but balanced teams still have 2 or 3 defensive options. Something like Clefable could hit that toxic or could just pass a wish into the more offensive option like Crawdaunt. If Slowking has thunder wave it means that it will have to forgo calm mind meaning Clefable can stall it by itself. 

[OldKeith]

Gonna copy-paste an older post of mine showing why slowking is not that big of a deal and why the problem uu has right now is scizor due to its ability to absorb attacks from sweepers and pursuit them.

 

Counters:

CB Crawdaunt Band Crunch - jolly 80.2% - 95%, adamant 87.1% - 104%; also access to dragon dance/swords dance

CB Sharpedo Band Crunch - 80.2% - 95%

CB +ATK Granbull Crunch - 58.4% - 69.3

CB Absol Megahorn - 84.2% - 100%

 

Checks:

Manectric Tbolt - 65.3% - 77.2%; if you fear CM get a magnet - 77.2% - 92.1%

CB +ATK Breloom Bullet Seed - 89.1% - 106.9% (3 hits)

CB Sneasel Bite - 51.5% - 62.4% (counter if it does not come in on Twave/Flame; flinch is there too)

Kangaskhan comes in and Toxic stalls

Clefable comes in and Toxic Stalls

Hypno/Grumpig can come in and toxic stall

Choice Band Swellow Double-Edge - 52% - 61.4% (not really a check but definitely dents slowking, focing it to either slack off, or prevents it from coming in on an attack)

CB Adamant Azumarill 52% - 61.4% (same as above)

CB Adamant Donphan 54% - 64.4% (even with no defensive investment it can live surf, so you can make it live while not losing much speed)

Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle - 99% - 116.8%

Sunny Day Exeggutor wins if there is no flamethrower

Calm Mind 0 SAtk Misdreavus wins vs non-cm King with Shadow Ball doing  36.6% - 44.6% neutral

Haunter Shadow Ball - 57.4% - 69.3% (again might lose vs a CM king) - only if no psychic

Ampharos and Lanturn also check nicely, and can run toxic (as they often do), to cripple the CM set

CB Houndoom Crunch 66.3% - 78.2% (surf has a small chance to ko back 88% - 104%)

Quagsire can toxic stall easily, so can Altaria

[BurntZebra]

Taken from a previous post because I'm lazy. 

 

I don't believe its offensive uber, defensive uber, or even unhealthy, but a case could be made for centralization, even though slowking doesn't really require any super weird counters. Kangaskhan and clefable are going to be used regardless of slowking being present or not. Lanturn, ampharos, and cradily are all capable of beating slowking. Crawdaunt is one of the best wallbreakers and it just so happens to hard counter calm mind sets. Other powerful choice banders can easily take down slowking as well.

 

Is the meta *actually* centralized around slowking? I don't really believe so. All the pokemon I listed before will still be run if slowking is banned. Does anything run a really weird set to counter slowking? Not really. Defensive pokemon run toxic but that has utility outside of wearing down slowking. Does slowking force you to run specific pokemon? To some extent, although not any more than other meta defining pokemon like kangaskhan, crawdaunt, and vileplume. 

 

Does slowking make some things unviable/ is slowking unhealthy for the meta? I would say no to the first question, besides hitmonlee, but I don't really think slowking is main culprit to hitmonlee's decrease in usage. To be honest, outside of hitmonlee, slowking doesn't really hard wall anything, and considering hitmonlee can do ~40% to slowking with earthquake/return, or even closer to 50% with thief, I don't really think its the main reason people aren't running hitmonlee. Most physical attackers have a coverage move to cover slowking, whether it be a return/dedge, earthquake, rock slide, thunderpunch, or even megahorn. 

 

Does slowking's usage indicate that it is unhealthy and/or centralizing? Sort of, although that's more due to the fact that scizor is on 50% of teams. If scizor was not a threat in the meta, slowking's niche capability of countering scizor is eliminated, making exeggutor or vileplume or quagsire more viable options as defensive pivots. 

 

I don't really believe slowking fits under any uber characteristic at the moment as its been established its not offensive uber, defensive uber, overcentralizing, or unhealthy. 

[Tyrone]

Could we get some more input from the community on whether Slowking is healthy for the metagame?

 

 

wheres my wall build? 

 

"you shall not pass set: it will only die to swords dance users. it can stall out the rest steels shut it down but they will not break through

iron defense

toxic

amnesia

rest"

 

I do believe this set does make Slowking uber-defensive.

[BurntZebra]

Could we get some more input from the community on whether Slowking is healthy for the metagame?

I do believe this set does make Slowking uber-defensive.

That is not uber defensive. If that was the case, we would have to ban anything that learns cosmic power, or any thing that learns a defense and special defense boosting move

[Tyrone]

That is not uber defensive. If that was the case, we would have to ban anything that learns cosmic power, or any thing that learns a defense and special defense boosting move

Strawman argument

 

[spoiler]

An example of a Defensive Characteristic pokemon is Lugia in 3rd generation. It's stat spread of 106/130/154 defenses meant that it was easily one of the bulkiest pokemon available. In addition to this, it had defensive options such as Recover/Rest, Calm Mind, and Reflect, as well as base 110 speed, meaning it naturally outsped a majority of pokemon before they could stop it from healing or setting up.

 

Lugia was a pokemon which could naturally outstall every relevant attacker through sheer base stats, the addition of defense boosting moves such as Reflect and Calm Mind meant that even set up pokemon wouldn't be able to break it. Toxic wouldn't be able to stop it either if it ran Rest, and attackers couldn't hope to beat any set with Recover as outdamaging the healing was a pointless endeavor. Naturally, decent offensive stats and high speed meant that Taunt wasn't a viable option either. 

 

Because of how unbreakable Lugia was, it was capable of stalling out any pokemon it was matched up against. As a result, it met the Defensive Characteristic and was banished to Ubers.

[/spoiler]

 

252 Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 172+ Def Slowking: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 72-86 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 172+ Def Slowking: 102-122 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is just an example, using the hardest and most effective offensive counters for slowking.

Any other pokemon than these would stand no chance at all.

Since the most common switchin for Slowking at the moment is Kangaskhan or Clefable (they don't care about toxic/special attacks), it's going to be a rough time to take it down.

 

I might be biased because I actually played against Fred's stall Slowking and it completely destroyed me, but it could also be a that it's just too strong anyway.

[OrangeManiac]

It almost feels like we forgot crits exist. In addition, a Sub + SD/CM set makes that moveset pretty instantly lose in pretty much every possible case. And just a simple Rest stalls that out completely. That is just not Uber defensive.

 

Not only did gen3 Lugia have wayyy more OP stats compared to gen3 OU tier vs. Slowking against PokeMMO UU tier. In addition, Slowking has no Roar/Whirlwind unlike Lugia had which made all set uppers second to useless against Lugia. These two just battle in the very different category. Uber defensive is really rare to begin with and Slowking just isn't defensive Ubers. You could argue it to offensive Ubers more easily.

[OldKeith]

Strawman argument

 

[spoiler]

An example of a Defensive Characteristic pokemon is Lugia in 3rd generation. It's stat spread of 106/130/154 defenses meant that it was easily one of the bulkiest pokemon available. In addition to this, it had defensive options such as Recover/Rest, Calm Mind, and Reflect, as well as base 110 speed, meaning it naturally outsped a majority of pokemon before they could stop it from healing or setting up.

 

Lugia was a pokemon which could naturally outstall every relevant attacker through sheer base stats, the addition of defense boosting moves such as Reflect and Calm Mind meant that even set up pokemon wouldn't be able to break it. Toxic wouldn't be able to stop it either if it ran Rest, and attackers couldn't hope to beat any set with Recover as outdamaging the healing was a pointless endeavor. Naturally, decent offensive stats and high speed meant that Taunt wasn't a viable option either. 

 

Because of how unbreakable Lugia was, it was capable of stalling out any pokemon it was matched up against. As a result, it met the Defensive Characteristic and was banished to Ubers.

[/spoiler]

 

252 Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. +2 252 HP / 172+ Def Slowking: 86-104 (42.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 72-86 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 172+ Def Slowking: 102-122 (50.4 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 84 SpD Slowking: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is just an example, using the hardest and most effective offensive counters for slowking.

Any other pokemon than these would stand no chance at all.

Since the most common switchin for Slowking at the moment is Kangaskhan or Clefable (they don't care about toxic/special attacks), it's going to be a rough time to take it down.

 

I might be biased because I actually played against Fred's stall Slowking and it completely destroyed me, but it could also be a that it's just too strong anyway.

 

I am sorry, but that set is not even remotely a problem for the meta. Not only it falls to taunt or crits, but it can simply be stalled out by switching around. It is a terrible set. Just bringing it up in this discussion is stupid.

Edited December 14, 2015 by OldKeith

[DoubleJ]

It almost feels like we forgot crits exist. In addition, a Sub + SD/CM set makes that moveset pretty instantly lose in pretty much every possible case. And just a simple Rest stalls that out completely. That is just not Uber defensive.

 

Not only did gen3 Lugia have wayyy more OP stats compared to gen3 OU tier vs. Slowking against PokeMMO UU tier. In addition, Slowking has no Roar/Whirlwind unlike Lugia had which made all set uppers second to useless against Lugia. These two just battle in the very different category. Uber defensive is really rare to begin with and Slowking just isn't defensive Ubers. You could argue it to offensive Ubers more easily.

 

Sweet, so the answer to Slowking is to just get a crit. 

 

[spoiler] Not necessarily a joke since most of the checks that have been listed are hit fairly hard by either of Slowking's two main attacks and run a big risk playing it 1v1 at full health. [/spoiler]

[Gunthug]

Sweet, so the answer to Slowking is to just get a crit.

[spoiler] Not necessarily a joke since most of the checks that have been listed are hit fairly hard by either of Slowking's two main attacks and run a big risk playing it 1v1 at full health. [/spoiler]

This has been a nice discussion so far, why ruin it by cherry picking something orange said out of context? He was clearly only referring to the 0 attacks set that ty and Fred mentioned, even saying at the bottom of his post (dk if you made it that far) that offensive uber would be easier to argue than trying to defend that ridiculous set. (Personally I don't think it's offensive uber either, unhealthy or centralizing seems to be its biggest flaw) Edited December 14, 2015 by Gunthug

[Robofiend]

This has been a nice discussion so far, why ruin it by cherry picking something orange said out of context? He was clearly only referring to the 0 attacks set that ty and Fred mentioned, even saying at the bottom of his post (dk if you made it that far) that offensive uber would be easier to argue than trying to defend that ridiculous set. (Personally I don't think it's offensive uber either, unhealthy or centralizing seems to be its biggest flaw)

 

We shouldn't really even be talking about the theorymon-only CP set since no one's ever going to run that as long as Toxic exists. CP is plain useless without Stored Power and it's not even worth discussing. 

 

The CM set on the other hand is a lot harder to break without Crawdaunt or Absol (who's just plain bad usually) and it offers a lot more offense while protecting against pretty much anything but Toxic stall and Choice Attackers predicting the CM and safely entering battle. I think this is more what JJ was getting at than arguing about non-existent CP sets.

 

Imo it is a valid point since after a CM Slowking can stall out Manectric and other would-be special side answers to it. While Craw and Absol can still break it, most players just go for the Toxic stall since it's way safer than coming in on a +2 attack. This in itself is a bit centralizing and generally worth talking about.

 

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[DoubleJ]

It appears that this thread has been up for the appropriate amount of time for the tier council to make a decision on whether to ban Slowking or keep it in this dismal rendition of UU. 

 

I highlighted some things in the Scizor discussion thread that hopefully can be used here. It is commonly said today that UU is "unenjoyable" and overly reliant on walls, and we have come to a crossing point in tiering. We have two options, ban Slowking as a defensive Uber (which it pretty much is) and/or ban Scizor as an offensive Uber (which it arguably is). They are the dominant pokemon in this tier and as someone stated in the other thread, they are the pokemon that define UU today. Both can be viewed as over-centralizing, but we have to take a step back and see what the actual problem in UU really is. 

 

Is UU too reliant on defense because of offensive juggernauts like Scizor or is UU reliant on defense because the defensive pokemon we have right now are too good not to use? In my opinion, Slowking is just too good not to use. With one common set, it can spread a decent amount of damage with two stabs which are nearly unresisted, it can spread paralyzing status crippling nearly any sweeper, and it can even heal itself with Slack-Off. Anyone who runs Slowking plays to keep it alive because it checks so many offensive threats. When paired with a cleric and additional defensive pieces, it forms an almost unbreakable core that prevents the majority of our offensive options from being successful outside of a lucky crit, further breeding frustration throughout the tier. 

 

If we ban Slowking, I believe we will see an increase in offensive diversity and also a shifting metagame. Right now the metagame is stale and is not fluctuating. Slowking to me is the "wall" that prevents any new offensive threats from rising because it does its job just too damn well.

 

If we remove Slowking, Scizor will need to be suspected in order to identify whether it can become anything more than a "CB hit and run" option. After that, the tier might be stable enough to justify moving down Sceptile for testing. 

 

 

EDIT: Also as a reminder, the tier council is being spread really thin with all of the discussions between OU and UU. I would suggest that they take a moment to assess one issue at a time in order to make the best decision possible. Hopefully someone within the council, or one of the overseeing staff members, can persuade the tier council to focus on UU or OU. There is a lot to handle right now for such a small group and I fear they may lose focus fairly easily. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by DoubleJ

[RysPicz]

With this thing gone, WEELEE will have a comeback with a vengeance. It will also reduce Scizor's usage a bit imo. Exegg is going to take over Slowking's spot most likely.

[DrCraig]

With this thing gone, WEELEE will have a comeback with a vengeance. It will also reduce Scizor's usage a bit imo. Exegg is going to take over Slowking's spot most likely.

Scizors best counter is banned so people won't use Scizor?That's not how it works.

[DoubleJ]

Scizors best counter is banned so people won't use Scizor?That's not how it works.

 

To be fair, Slowking does a terrible job at actually killing Scizor unless it has Flamethrower, which is rare considering how good Psychic + Surf are. It just typically sits in its way until Scizor is able to kill it with CB Return. Your over dramatic quips aren't all that helpful btw.