Never-Used Tier and Usage Movements

[KaynineXL]

1 hour ago, Osuki said:

NU looks soo messy, I can't find any spike remover exept claydol and some gimmicky stuff like delibird and hitmonchan so gbwead will problably be the only person to have a chance against glalie if he doesn't get swept by jynx before it. No seriously, it's way too hard to build something with kingler grandbull feerow and jynx in NU. Just wanted to leave my thoughts here without uguuing too much, I know the TC is waiting the NU tournament and I hope people will share their feedbacks to maybe have a NU atleast as great as the NU before the reset. Seeing a skilless battle in PSL with Jynx killing something each time it comes in was so ridiculous. However I could be wrong and Thursday's NU tournament will be fun to watch, I hope so!

Me personally, every time I player against a spiker, my offense was too much for them to get spikes, although I think that could change if you use the spiker right. Uhh, we don't have a spinner that can beat Misdreavus either I think, Armaldo was like the only one which is gone. Hitmonchan can actually, but that's too gimmick for my liking.

 

Special walls in NU are so far behind the special attackers strength wise, special attackers can dominate them. There isn't a sp wall that I'm aware of that can wall Specs users along with CMers, this is problematic with Jynx because not only is it a powerhouse with Specs, but it's also just as scary with CM/Fake Tears and it doesn't really have any threats other Pursuit Scyther/Fearow. I feel like Fearow isn't really worth using because everyone should have normal/flying resist since Granbul and Fearow would be terrifying otherwise, you could make it work, but is it really worth it when you could just pick one of the other OP pokes like Jynx, Walrein, Granbull. Today I switch my Sp def Raichu into a Jynx(scared for my life may I add) and it fake tears me and 1 shot me with ice beam, now I could use Flareon which would do a better job at walling it but then if they have Walrein, you really better hope you're a predict god or you could use two special walls.

 

I would personally like to see the TC look at Jynx, Walrein and maybe Granbul for discussions.

Edited May 31, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Osuki]

13 minutes ago, pachima said:

Scarf primeape says hi

Scarf Primeape may beat them but is it a switch in? Also I think Hypno and Grumpig will be pretty dominant with jynx around, let's see!

 

[Furtifman]

Ain't yet any chart about usage in NU ? Would be curious to see the top use.

Also I think the problem in NU is that people try too much to fit a top tier, while there is the larger base of pokemon in it. Want to wall a Jynx ? Send Dewgong and use Encore...

I find in NU playing gimmicky is often the best way to win.

 

Also I don't think a sipnner is relevant, because the only pokemon who can set spikes are Roselia, Cacturn and Delibird. All slows and frail.

[LifeStyle]

4 minutes ago, Furtifman said:

Also I don't think a sipnner is relevant, because the only pokemon who can set spikes are Roselia, Cacturn and Delibird. All slows and frail.

Glalie? Qwilfish?

[Blue]

5 minutes ago, Furtifman said:

Ain't yet any chart about usage in NU ? Would be curious to see the top use.

Also I think the problem in NU is that people try too much to fit a top tier, while there is the larger base of pokemon in it. Want to wall a Jynx ? Send Dewgong and use Encore...

I find in NU playing gimmicky is often the best way to win.

 

Also I don't think a sipnner is relevant, because the only pokemon who can set spikes are Roselia, Cacturn and Delibird. All slows and frail.

glalie can spike too and is NU

[Furtifman]

Just now, LifeStyle said:

Glalie? Qwilfish?

Mb, just though Glalie was UU. Forgot Qwilifish tho

[KaynineXL]

15 minutes ago, Furtifman said:

Ain't yet any chart about usage in NU ? Would be curious to see the top use.

Also I think the problem in NU is that people try too much to fit a top tier, while there is the larger base of pokemon in it. Want to wall a Jynx ? Send Dewgong and use Encore...

I find in NU playing gimmicky is often the best way to win.

 

Also I don't think a sipnner is relevant, because the only pokemon who can set spikes are Roselia, Cacturn and Delibird. All slows and frail.

I don't see any reason to use Dewgong, it's a shit version of Walrein.

 

Even so - 252+ SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dewgong: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

One drop and you're done, or you could just keep attacking, it's not like Dewgong is going to kill OHKO you. Let's not forget you have no reliable recovery as well, so even Life Orb Psychics would be very damaging to you.

 

Edit: Also, there hasn't been any recent NU's since the changes to gather usage from.

Edited June 1, 2016 by KaynineXL

[Furtifman]

4 minutes ago, KaynineXL said:

I don't see any reason to use Dewgong, it's a shit version of Walrein.

 

Even so - 252+ SpA Choice Specs Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dewgong: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

One drop and you're done. Let's not forget you have no reliable recovery as well, so even Life Orb Psychics would be very damaging to you.

Well some reasons like Icicle spear can 3hko Xatu, and with high spdef and some with physical moves you can shut down calm minder easily (encore, body slam) and he fits well to the team I use...

Well don't consider too much what I say I'm pretty bad in comp ^^

[KaynineXL]

2 minutes ago, Furtifman said:

Well some reasons like Icicle spear can 3hko Xatu, and with high spdef and some with physical moves you can shut down calm minder easily (encore, body slam) and he fits well to the team I use...

Well don't consider too much what I say I'm pretty bad in comp ^^

I'd suggest you just scrap that Dewgong and make a Walrein, it's pretty much just an upgraded version.

[ShadowGary]

Is there anybody except Orange that uses Xatu though?

[LifeStyle]

1 minute ago, ShadowGary said:

Is there anybody except Orange that uses Xatu though?

I would but I'm too lazy to make one

[DoubleJ]

Jynx and Walrein, both of those are damn near guaranteed to pressure any team and can easily sweep late game if their very few checks are removed. I would suggest moving both up ASAP. 

 

Granbull can get a kill every turn it comes in with CB. There really just aren't enough walls in NU to cover these threats. 

[pachima]

What about metang? good check to jynx and as a bonus it has pursuit. 

[Arimanius]

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

What about metang? good check to jynx and as a bonus it has pursuit. 

and mawile, but those are gimmicks tho

[BurntZebra]

Steel types have a decent niche in the meta atm. Not sure you can consider something a gimmick when it checks/counters big threats like jynx/fearow/granbull.

[KaynineXL]

I'm not really convinced on Metang as a Jynx switch. Actually, I'm not really convinced with it in the NU meta.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metang: 64-75 (38.3 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Timid also has a 60% chance to 3hko on a full 252 HP Metang.

 

252+ Atk Metang Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 78-92 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metang's pursuit is 2hko CB or not.

 

This would mean it's pretty much a 50/50 whether you want to Meteor or Pursuit/Ice beam or switch, if you don't predict the 50/50 correctly, the damage is done and Metang can no longer switch in. On top of that, Freeze is an additional factor.

 

Wouldn't even call it a great switch on Granbul:

252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metang: 67-80 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hard to use calcs when there's quite a lot of EV spreads/items you can use. Also Fire Punch would do around 80%-90% to Metang.

252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metang: 178-210 (106.5 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Also, the bulk up set completely wrecks Metang.

+1 252+ Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metang: 178-210 (106.5 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 57-67 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

At best, it's a nice switch for Fearow, but I don't see why you'd use that over things that are more useful like Solrock, Shuckle(which is actually half decent for Granbul), Aggron.

 

 

---

Conclusion: I personally think Jynx for quick ban. Then watch Walrein, that thing is deadly, but fortunately it doesn't have the sweeping potential like Jynx as it lacks the speed/diversity, maybe if Jynx was removed we'd be relieved of a lot of pressure in team building and we could focus on things such as Walrein. Granbul, while it is quite scary it's very slow and I'v not seen it be as threatening as Jynx/Walrein so I think maybe we need more time to check that out. This is pretty much just from practice duels mind you, maybe things could change after the NU tomorrow.

Edited June 1, 2016 by KaynineXL

[KingBowser]

Has it really been that long that we have forgotten the OG KingLairon.

[Robofiend]

Y'all are underselling Claydol as a spinner and quakeslide blocker. 

 

Also I'm skeptical about Jynx, its relatively slow and frail and one scarf pursuit ruins it. 

[felix]

13 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

Also I'm skeptical about Jynx, its relatively slow and frail and one scarf pursuit ruins it. 

I wonder, which one of those scarf pursuit users can switch in against jynx and ohko even if it stays in

[DoubleJ]

In regards to Claydol, it can function as a good spinner, but considering it doesn't resist the common sweeper attacks, it will likely be seen less and less. There just aren't any QuakeSlide spammers that are better than Granbull, Kingler, Jynx, Victreebel, Fearow, Scyther, and Walrein. So Claydol right now is an inferior defensive option that is weak to the strongest attackers in the game. 

 

Ran through the list and honestly the only thing that looks "worth the risk" was Murkrow since it can switch in on a predicted Psychic. Metang can safely switch in and take a second hit, but anything else is just used as a revenge killer. Additionally though, a lot of those pokes fail to OHKO Jynx with Choice Scarf if it risks staying. 

 

252+ Atk Raticate Pursuit vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 80-96 (56.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Fearow Pursuit vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 86-102 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Scyther Pursuit vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 98-116 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

[Robofiend]

Alright so maybe it does need to be banned. Fearow gonna be unreal as well, as will scyther. Also should point out that scyther and fearow don't need to run scarf to outspeed Jynx and would likely do better with LO or Band 

[DoubleJ]

7 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

Alright so maybe it does need to be banned. Fearow gonna be unreal as well, as will scyther. Also should point out that scyther and fearow don't need to run scarf to outspeed Jynx and would likely do better with LO or Band 

Lol, yea not sure why I did that. Life Orb Scyther can nab the kill, but Fearow looks like it runs the risk if Jynx is full health (but who would Pursuit a full health Jynx with this knowledge anyways, oh wait desperate people who know it will sweep them). 

[KaynineXL]

Claydol has some good things going for it, the obvious spin and also it's the only Pokemon that truly hard counters Pinsir, you have HP Fire Tangela and Solrock which I'd say are more soft counters(even more sketchy for Solrock) than anything.

[BurntZebra]

Well I'd say there are a few things that hold jynx back from being completely broken. First, fearow just eliminates jynx if it gets in safely. Fearow is quite good and I imagine a lot of people would run it if we all didn't act like it was about to be banned. Second, jynx gets worn down so bad. Jynx can only come in on special attacks at all and after tanking a hit or two from a special attacker and taking life orb damage, jynx is going to be basically killing itself (i.e. finals today where jynx basically killed itself after spikes damage+a seismic toss+three life orb recoils). Third, there are a few ok switch ins for jynx, if you do let it in for free vs something slower and doesn't have bulk for taking a jynx attack. Glalie is 3hko'ed by life orb psychic and can ohko (after LO recoil) with crunch. 252 hp aggron is 3hko'ed by LO ice beam/psychic and obviously ohkos with rock slide. 252 hp/252 sp def aggron is 5hko'ed by LO ice beam/psychic and still ohkos with rock slide. The DPP wish flareon set is 3hko'ed by jynx psychic and return/bite ohko after LO recoil. Grumpig resists both ice beam and psychic if thick fat, but fears shadow ball/signal beam and can't really do much in return unless it runs seismic toss or a physical move. Raichu can avoid the 2hko from psychic and ohkos with volt tackle, although ice beam has a 50% to 2hko raichu, so it becomes a 50/50 situation in whether to protect and risk calm mind, or to attack and risk being 2hko'ed. 

 

Then if you don't like running defensive pokemon, then you can run fearow or scyther or sharpedo (risking speed tie) or any scarfer faster than 108 speed like pinsir or kingler or flareon etc and ohko jynx. Pursuit trapping isn't entirely necessary since realistically, Jynx isn't going to get that many switch ins, especially vs an offensive team, where over half of the team will be outspeeding jynx. 

 

I'm not entirely convinced fearow is offensive uber either. Aggron is quite the stop to fearow and is quite viable now outside of stopping jynx/fearow as hitmontop has left the tier for the time being and poliwrath is the only reliable rock resist. Kabutops can take 2 hits from fearow as well. Granbull is capable of taking 2 drill pecks or returns (double edge is still a 2hko). Sableye is a nice switchin for fearows normal spam and can still take 2 drill pecks. Kingler survives one double edge from full, which limits what kind of free turns fearow really generates. Other normal/flying resists like lunatone/solrock/mawile/golem all work decently at stealing momentum from fearow, although the latter two don't see much usage. Revenge kill options are a bit more limited on fearow. Limited to choice scarfers faster than 112 (same ones I listed for jynx) and pokemon faster than 167 (electrode/scyther/rapidash/kadabra).

 

Currently, I don't see fearow or jynx as banworthy, but I do see that they constrict teambuilding some, although it's not necessarily a bad thing, as there will always be pokemon that force you to run other types of pokemon. 

[pachima]

Kecleon can also check specs jynx pretty well thanks to its ability