[OU Discussion] Snorlax [Test banned]

[pachima]

Another food for thoughts, wasn´t doom banned from UU due to trapping and thus making defensive exeggutor and stuff like that pretty much useless?

Isn´t banded lax the exact same thing about starmie? It pretty much ggs any don heavily invested in defense starmie, and even those have to take care of double edge or a crunch placed somewhere. That mixex with those beastly stats and that body slam needs something of a ban.

edit: Also, page king

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by pachima
Page king, what else?

[NikhilR]

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

Another food for thoughts, wasn´t doom banned from UU due to trapping and thus making defensive exeggutor and stuff like that pretty much useless?

Isn´t banded lax the exact same thing about starmie? It pretty much ggs any don heavily invested in defense starmie, and even those have to take care of double edge or a crunch placed somewhere. That mixex with those beastly stats and that body slam needs something of a ban.

edit: Also, page king

 

Well Doom's trapping abilities extends to all psychic types like Xatu / Misd / Jynx, which made it unhealthy but Snorlax's ability to pursuit trap mostly applies to only Starmie, so the situation isn't similar.

Edited August 29, 2016 by NikhilR

[pachima]

3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Well Doom's trapping abilities extends to all psychic types like Xatu / Misd / Jynx, which made it unhealthy but Snorlax's ability to pursuit trap mostly applies to only Starmie, so the situation isn't similar.

well, alakazam also suffers from it, unless u get some decrease of sp deff or a crit, specs psychic fails to 2hko a decently evd banded lax. Espeon while not that threatened, is also something to consider. Finally, to a lesser extent, jolteon doesnt like to take a pursuit on its face (if you dont switch afraid of pursuit, that can also cost its life) 

All in all, while its true snorlax trapping abilities are far from houndooms, coupled with everything it can do, becomes somewhat ridiculous.

Anyway, what is its usage right now? I feel like I see 2 snorlax per battle.

[NikhilR]

22 minutes ago, pachima said:

well, alakazam also suffers from it, unless u get some decrease of sp deff or a crit, specs psychic fails to 2hko a decently evd banded lax. Espeon while not that threatened, is also something to consider. Finally, to a lesser extent, jolteon doesnt like to take a pursuit on its face (if you dont switch afraid of pursuit, that can also cost its life) 

All in all, while its true snorlax trapping abilities are far from houndooms, coupled with everything it can do, becomes somewhat ridiculous.

Anyway, what is its usage right now? I feel like I see 2 snorlax per battle.

Yeah but the difference is that banded Snorlax isn't a standard set whereas pursuit is always a part of Houndoom's set and the main reason why it is used. So no one is discouraged from using Espeon / Zam because of fear of getting pursuit trapped by Lax. Jolt can scout the set depending on leftovers recovery and the move (if it has sub). 

 

Usage stats till 6th August puts Snorlax at the highest with 40%. 

[pachima]

Its fun, pursuit is kinda op and not even its standard set. Just shows how strong is that in this meta.

[Spaintakula]

6 hours ago, pachima said:

well, alakazam also suffers from it, unless u get some decrease of sp deff or a crit, specs psychic fails to 2hko a decently evd banded lax. Espeon while not that threatened, is also something to consider. Finally, to a lesser extent, jolteon doesnt like to take a pursuit on its face (if you dont switch afraid of pursuit, that can also cost its life) 

All in all, while its true snorlax trapping abilities are far from houndooms, coupled with everything it can do, becomes somewhat ridiculous.

Anyway, what is its usage right now? I feel like I see 2 snorlax per battle.

then again, snorlax doesn't even need to be banded or invested for that matter to pursuit kill a zam

[BlackJovi]

When we getting an answer for the lax discussion tho 

[gbwead]

7 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

When we getting an answer for the lax discussion tho 

Next tier update is September 4th. There should be an answer by then.

[DoubleJ]

Is there any justifiable reason to ban Snorlax?

 

Uber offense? No, it doesn't sweep teams. Curse can be stopped now. 

Uber defense? No, even special attackers can beat it. 

 

Unhealthy? No, it's usage isn't absurdly broken and it isn't limiting any other pokemon from being used. With Snorlax spamming Pursuit I still see Starmie, Alakazam, and other frail sweepers. Heck I even see Haunter. Looking at the usage stats it appears like we actually have one of the more diverse metas to exist in PokeMMO. 

Uncompetitive? Yet to be seen. It is centralizing, but what top tier threat isn't? Do we carry multiple options to stop DD Gyara? Yes. Do we carry an answer to Starmie? Yes. Is it too good not to use? Maybe. Is that even justification to ban something? Idk. 

 

If the big buy gets banned I just hope they justify it with logic rather than subjective opinion, but let's face it, the tier council appears to be leaning that way because they got paralyzed a few times,

[SirYurop]

Meta evolves and u should do the same (look at flygon, there are more mixed than cb nowadays) so if lax is the primal sp def prepare ur shit for him... i mean if it got banned then prepare for chansey (whos even more cancerous imo since its so passive to play)

 

Is lax strong?? Sure, it does his work done like a boss just as metagross or weez. Its uber?? I dont think so unless that magical cb lefties 252 hp attk sp def w some def and body slam fire punch eq spower curse rest sub fire blast surf and pursuit set.

 

So prepare ur team for top tier pokes..pray for a good match up and keep your counters alive, i mean if u sac ur breelom when laxs still around u cant cry cuz u chocked bro

 

[pachima]

5 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Unhealthy? No, it's usage isn't absurdly broken

I see. So what percentage u need for it to be broken? 200%

[pachima]

2 hours ago, SirYurop said:

Meta evolves and u should do the same (look at flygon, there are more mixed than cb nowadays) so if lax is the primal sp def prepare ur shit for him... i mean if it got banned then prepare for chansey (whos even more cancerous imo since its so passive to play)

 

Is lax strong?? Sure, it does his work done like a boss just as metagross or weez. Its uber?? I dont think so unless that magical cb lefties 252 hp attk sp def w some def and body slam fire punch eq spower curse rest sub fire blast surf and pursuit set.

 

So prepare ur team for top tier pokes..pray for a good match up and keep your counters alive, i mean if u sac ur breelom when laxs still around u cant cry cuz u chocked bro

 

chansey is not close to being more cancerous, she cant threaten like 90% of the OU tier like snorlax does. (If snorlax is shadowing chansey´s usage that means snorlax is better at what it does)

Comparing snorlax with weezing is just ridiculous, Weezing can be skillfully counteres, lax cant. Meta meh

The thing is: With snorlax and chansey allowed, you are pretty much destroying the special oriented pokemon in the game

[DoubleJ]

5 minutes ago, pachima said:

I see. So what percentage u need for it to be broken? 200%

Although impossible, that would certainly merit an unhealthy rating. Good question. 

[xStarr]

4 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Although impossible, that would certainly merit an unhealthy rating. Good question. 

He sees everything

[Spaintakula]

1 hour ago, pachima said:

I see. So what percentage u need for it to be broken? 200%

Fun fact, snorlax actually got 100% usage in GSC on a few month intervals. Can't recall exact times, but yeah.

And how ttar and other monsters got around 50% usage throughout pretty much every month in every gen before oras, whilst not getting their respective bans. 

[SirYurop]

When i was comparing them i just mean than they do their role good..im not the uguu who claims meta is uber...just as lax, same as weezing or it is bad taking ph hits?? Also if someone brings weez arca ur cbrs are fucked so

 

Serious question, for you the trapinch/magne meta was more skill oriented and diverse than the actual? Ik magne is kinda fucked now but still (and that meta was an answer for chansey)

[pachima]

2 hours ago, SirYurop said:

When i was comparing them i just mean than they do their role good..im not the uguu who claims meta is uber...just as lax, same as weezing or it is bad taking ph hits?? Also if someone brings weez arca ur cbrs are fucked so

 

Serious question, for you the trapinch/magne meta was more skill oriented and diverse than the actual? Ik magne is kinda fucked now but still (and that meta was an answer for chansey)

Actually, with snorlax OU (Not right at the first, but some weeks later), I´ve seen an increase in trapinch´s usage. That little monster can trap snorlax and ohko snorlax with superpower (it can be ev´d to outspeed those) While a +1 snorlax doesn´t like a superpower either and those already damaged can also be fainted. Metagross changing had nothing to do with snorlax coming OU. On the contrary, meta is one decent answer for it, so it´s usage should rise. And honestly, magne has more problems against chansey than to snorlax, which the latter he might 3hko with specs. 

Snorlax changed the tier? Yes  

To worse or to better? Well, I personally don´t know, It gave rise to some fighting types, which is good, but at the same time kinda overcentralizing. Need to wait the most recent usage lists. (Also I grab this chance to talk about overcentralizing. Doublej said we carry multiple checks for ddance gyara, well, while it´s not my department, since I dont like defensive play, I´m quite sure those checks can effectively well check a gyarados. The same can´t be said for snorlax. Hera was at first used against him but ppl discovered paralyze hurts too much. Weezing also suffers from paralyze. Machamp is decent for standard lax but not for banded ones. It´s true snorlax cant have everything in one set, but has much more variety than most of sweepers here and much less checks, and even one set can threaten everything with body slam)

It´s true chansey already stops snorlax special attackers cold? Yes, but besides that and to act as a cleric(which is not snorlax´s job anyway) snorlax exerts much more pressure and I don´t think ppl should be that concerned about suffering rng once, which they are because bslam.

There are other rng, like crit (much lower chance) and flinch from waterfall, which does little to slowbro. On the other hand, bslam literally disables everything that could stand to snorlax itself.

Lastly. Needs  a ban? While I think so, I also think it would be better to testban a OU without it first. Some other things changed and we can´t be sure whether OU changed because of snorlax or because of the other stuff. 

So, testban it please.

[Kizhaz]

3 hours ago, pachima said:

Lastly. Needs  a ban? While I think so, I also think it would be better to testban a OU without it first. Some other things changed and we can´t be sure whether OU changed because of snorlax or because of the other stuff. 

So, testban it please.

As someone who barely plays anymore, I don't really care what decision is made as long as it's a decision. TC pls don't do another 5months of putting this off with the 50th test ban for lax. Decisions need to be made, some people won't agree with the decision but at least we can move on and away from it

[pachima]

4 hours ago, Kizhaz said:

As someone who barely plays anymore, I don't really care what decision is made as long as it's a decision. TC pls don't do another 5months of putting this off with the 50th test ban for lax. Decisions need to be made, some people won't agree with the decision but at least we can move on and away from it

Wel, didn´t know that. The first time I got into competitive in this game, snorlax was uber. If thats the case, then a testban is definitely not a worthy decision. I dont mind if lax stays but something else must be given to us to balance the tier with him.

 

[BlackJovi]

After all I think we're whining too much and lax isn't that bad for the meta atm, how are we supposed to handle the top special attackers in the tier if snorlax is gone? Chansey definitely isn't the way

 

 

[gbwead]

1 hour ago, BlackJovi said:

After all I think we're whining too much and lax isn't that bad for the meta atm, how are we supposed to handle the top special attackers in the tier if snorlax is gone? Chansey definitely isn't the way

Between Venusaur, Arcanine, Meganium, Umbreon, Houndoom, Porygon2, Ludicolo, Gardevoir, Milotic, sturdy pokemons, the infamous top tier Dusclops, Metagross and several others, I am sure someone as smart as you @BlackJovi can manage without chansey ^^

Spoiler

Venusaur

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Weezing, Tentacruel

Offensive checks: Metagross, Charizard, Espeon

 

Charizard

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Milotic

Offensive checks: Flygon, Aerodactyl, Kingdra

 

Alakazam

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine

Offensive checks: Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Magneton

Defensive counters: Meganium, Venusaur

Offensive checks: Flygon, Rhydon, Swampert, Marowak, Jolteon

 

Starmie

Defensive counters: Ludicolo, Gardevoir, Meganium, Miltotic, Porygon2, Umbreon

Offensive checks: Cacturne, Jolteon, Metagross

 

Typholosion

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Milotic, Vaporeon

Offensive checks: Gyra/Swampert, Kingdra, Starmie, Aerodactyl, Flygon

 

Espeon

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine

Offensive checks: Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Gardevoir

Defensive counters: Milotic, Arcanine, Vaporeon, Porygon2

Offensive checks: Blaziken, Flygon, Aerodactyl

 

Ludicolo

Defensive counters: Venusaur, Ludicolo, Porygon2, Umbreon, Tentacruel

Offensive checks: Heracross, 

 

Houndoom

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine,

Offensive checks:  Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Blaziken

Defensive counters: Milotic, Arcanine, Dusclops, Gardevoir, Vaporeon

Offensive checks: Starmie, Espeon

 

On 31/08/2016 at 3:37 PM, SirYurop said:

i mean if it got banned then prepare for chansey (whos even more cancerous imo since its so passive to play)

13 hours ago, SirYurop said:

trapinch/magne meta

Why is the Laxless meta called the Chansey meta or the trap meta? Back then, Metagross had more usage than Chansey and Trapinch had maximum 5% usage...

 

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by gbwead

[BlackJovi]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

Between Venusaur, Arcanine, Meganium, Umbreon, Houndoom, Porygon2, Ludicolo, Gardevoir, Milotic, sturdy pokemons, the infamous top tier Dusclops, Metagross and several others, I am sure someone as smart as you @BlackJovi can manage without chansey ^^

  Reveal hidden contents

Venusaur

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Weezing, Tentacruel

Offensive checks: Metagross, Charizard, Espeon

 

Charizard

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Milotic

Offensive checks: Flygon, Aerodactyl, Kingdra

 

Alakazam

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine

Offensive checks: Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Magneton

Defensive counters: Meganium, Venusaur

Offensive checks: Flygon, Rhydon, Swampert, Marowak, Jolteon

 

Starmie

Defensive counters: Ludicolo, Gardevoir, Meganium, Miltotic, Porygon2, Umbreon

Offensive checks: Cacturne, Jolteon, Metagross

 

Typholosion

Defensive counters: Arcanine, Milotic, Vaporeon

Offensive checks: Gyra/Swampert, Kingdra, Starmie, Aerodactyl, Flygon

 

Espeon

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine

Offensive checks: Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Gardevoir

Defensive counters: Milotic, Arcanine, Vaporeon, Porygon2

Offensive checks: Blaziken, Flygon, Aerodactyl

 

Ludicolo

Defensive counters: Venusaur, Ludicolo, Porygon2, Umbreon, Tentacruel

Offensive checks: Heracross, 

 

Houndoom

Defensive counters: Umbreon, Arcanine,

Offensive checks:  Aerodactyl, Houndoom, Metagross

 

Blaziken

Defensive counters: Milotic, Arcanine, Dusclops, Gardevoir, Vaporeon

Offensive checks: Starmie, Espeon

 

Why is the Laxless meta called the Chansey meta or the trap meta? Back then, Metagross had more usage than Chansey and Trapinch had maximum 5% usage...

 

 

> me using chansey

 

plz gb. 

[RysPicz]

20 hours ago, BlackJovi said:

> me using chansey

 

plz gb. 

step up

[DoubleJ]

@gbwead

 

In response to your positioning of the young BlackJovi regarding a meta without Snorlax, let me lend my opinion. As we've seen, PokeMMO survives on the use of what I like to call "blanket" defenses. These are defensive pokemon that do their job really well, preventing a wide variety of attackers from sweeping. Snorlax is a blanket defense in that it can check every special attacker in the game. The same goes for Chansey. When we lose a blanket defense, we rely on other blanket defenses. If we ban Snorlax, our only other blanket special defense pokemon are Chansey and Umbreon. Unfortunately, both of these pokemon lack any sort of offensive presence (Curse Umbreon when?) and tend to just result in stalling one another out. Remember all the Chansey into Chansey switch ins? Another negative is that both of these pokemon tend to be set-up bait for a number of crafty attackers, varying from Growth Venusaur, Growth Jolteon, Swords Dance Ursaring, DD Gyarados, etc etc. Snorlax can at least prevent these pokemon from immediately switching in with its powerful STAB Body Slam, or a coverage move such as Earthquake. 

 

Other special walls such as Venusaur, Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Porygon2, and Arcannine have major flaws and weaknesses. They have to be used in tandem with one another just to stop common special threats and even then it can come down to a guessing game as to what move Starmie will use. It's an unfortunate fact, but special attackers are incredibly powerful in this game and Snorlax fits a really nice niche to slow them down. I guess in my opinion, Snorlax is just too good not to use, but does that merit a ban for being uncompetitive? I honestly don't think so. 

 

To add, I think Metagross had the most usage before Snorlax was introduced because it really didn't fear Chansey like it fears a Snorlax Body Slam. Chansey with Thunder Wave was easily scouted and Metagross could play around it. A Snorlax spamming Body Slam on the other hand is a direct threat to a sweeping Metagross and thus the allure of using this beast goes down. It also doesn't hold up against Curse Snorlax as well as other physical attackers. 

[xilias]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

@gbwead

 

In response to your positioning of the young BlackJovi regarding a meta without Snorlax, let me lend my opinion. As we've seen, PokeMMO survives on the use of what I like to call "blanket" defenses. These are defensive pokemon that do their job really well, preventing a wide variety of attackers from sweeping. Snorlax is a blanket defense in that it can check every special attacker in the game. The same goes for Chansey. When we lose a blanket defense, we rely on other blanket defenses. If we ban Snorlax, our only other blanket special defense pokemon are Chansey and Umbreon. Unfortunately, both of these pokemon lack any sort of offensive presence (Curse Umbreon when?) and tend to just result in stalling one another out. Remember all the Chansey into Chansey switch ins? Another negative is that both of these pokemon tend to be set-up bait for a number of crafty attackers, varying from Growth Venusaur, Growth Jolteon, Swords Dance Ursaring, DD Gyarados, etc etc. Snorlax can at least prevent these pokemon from immediately switching in with its powerful STAB Body Slam, or a coverage move such as Earthquake. 

 

Other special walls such as Venusaur, Gardevoir, Ludicolo, Porygon2, and Arcannine have major flaws and weaknesses. They have to be used in tandem with one another just to stop common special threats and even then it can come down to a guessing game as to what move Starmie will use. It's an unfortunate fact, but special attackers are incredibly powerful in this game and Snorlax fits a really nice niche to slow them down. I guess in my opinion, Snorlax is just too good not to use, but does that merit a ban for being uncompetitive? I honestly don't think so. 

 

To add, I think Metagross had the most usage before Snorlax was introduced because it really didn't fear Chansey like it fears a Snorlax Body Slam. Chansey with Thunder Wave was easily scouted and Metagross could play around it. A Snorlax spamming Body Slam on the other hand is a direct threat to a sweeping Metagross and thus the allure of using this beast goes down. It also doesn't hold up against Curse Snorlax as well as other physical attackers. 

But isnt it unhealthy that one single pokemon can kill the whole sp.att aspect of the game and put a huge pressure on the opponent on the same time?