Roundabout Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 serious question, can anyone explain? As far as I'm concerned the reason why it got banned was because of the sub + baton pass bullshit, but following that logic, aren't U-Turn and Volt Switch even more busted? Vorred 1 Link to comment
suigin Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 They don't pass boosts or subs. Ace0902 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, suigin said: They don't pass boosts or subs. In addition to this, volt switch can be blocked by ground types or volt absorb pokemon, and u-turn can be punished by rough skin/rocky helmet pokemon, and both can be scouted by protect, which can be advantageous in certain scenarios. suigin, Shuck, Ace0902 and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Rigamorty Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 What part makes them seem "more busted" in any way? They are damaging moves, which is kind a pro and a con because that means they can actually fail to things like protect, or a lightning rod/ground switch in for volt switch. And they don't actually pass the substitute or any boosts the way baton pass does. I don't get what you're seeing here. Edit: so very ninja'd Link to comment
razimove Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, Roundabout said: serious question, can anyone explain? As far as I'm concerned the reason why it got banned was because of the sub + baton pass bullshit, but following that logic, aren't U-Turn and Volt Switch even more busted? Because they don't allow you to setup easily to sweep. Link to comment
Roundabout Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Rigamorty said: What part makes them seem "more busted" in any way? They are damaging moves, which is kind a pro and a con because that means they can actually fail to things like protect, or a lightning rod/ground switch in for volt switch. And they don't actually pass the substitute or any boosts the way baton pass does. I don't get what you're seeing here. its more of a pron than a con imo 5 minutes ago, redspawn said: Because they don't allow you to setup easily to sweep. but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass Link to comment
razimove Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Roundabout said: its more of a pron than a con imo but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass and what is a setup? Passing a sub, is a way to setup pokemons, boosting is also another way. And no they can't, cause you risk a lot more with a u-turn than with a baton pass. Imagine me going 4 QD + sub on Volcarona(Example lol), then baton passing it to lets say hydreigon scarfed, how will you beat it? Now imagine the scenario in which you uturn into hydreigon, and he gets completely destroyed since he had no sub protection for a safe switch, and wasn't with enough boosts to hitko near your entire team. Ofc this example is just an example and chances are it will never happen. Edited November 28, 2017 by redspawn Link to comment
Toast Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Roundabout said: its more of a pron than a con imo but the reason that they gave for it getting banned was not because it was used for passing boosts, but because people used it to pass substitutes and gain momentum, and as I see it U-Turn and Volt Switch can do that more efficiently than Baton Pass pretty sure it was banned for being able to pass boosts + create bp chains, not just subs lol Link to comment
Roundabout Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 20 minutes ago, Toast said: pretty sure it was banned for being able to pass boosts + create bp chains, not just subs lol thats not what they said when they banned it, its not because of chains because they tested the baton pass clause (1 bp/team) for a while but then decided to ban it entirely Link to comment
Gunthug Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, Roundabout said: thats not what they said when they banned it, its not because of chains because they tested the baton pass clause (1 bp/team) for a while but then decided to ban it entirely It doesn't really matter what reason we gave when it was banned like, 4 years ago. It has STAYED banned because of its ability to do all sorts of shit, like pass boosts, create chains, pass subs, act as an unbridled momentum grabber, and most of all, force teams to run extremely niche options just to prevent from being rolled over (perish song, for example). Baton pass is absolute cancer, we don't need it around. RysPicz and Toast 2 Link to comment
Rigamorty Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 I still don't even get it, what's the comparison to sub passing vs volt turn? Do you miss the part where you are passing a sub? because that's kind of a big deal. with u-turn and volt switch, sure you keep the momentum if the opponent decided to switch, but what ever comes in doesn't get a sub to hide behind if the opponent attacks. You're comparing a switch that passes boosts and sub to a switch that can do damage and possibly fail if it doesn't successfully hit, and then saying the latter is the stronger one. It would be one thing if you just brought up volt switch and u-turn saying you think they're strong, but comparing it to baton pass is a tad silly. Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 listen, bp is still gay. volt and u turn arent gay. end of story Link to comment
axx Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Don't mind too much about whatever reason they decide to put in the ban reasoning, that's just some flavor text that some of the TCs is tasked with as nobody else wants to write it. At the end if it was not banned by usage it comes down to "m-muh feels" and senile telling everyone else "stop being an idiot" is the only thing that ever gets something unbanned around here. Roundabout 1 Link to comment
raddevil Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 5 hours ago, fredrichnietze said: listen, bp is still gay. volt and u turn arent gay. end of story stop using gay as pejorative, u pig Vaeldras and Xatu 2 Link to comment
XelaKebert Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 4 hours ago, axx said: Don't mind too much about whatever reason they decide to put in the ban reasoning, that's just some flavor text that some of the TCs is tasked with as nobody else wants to write it. At the end if it was not banned by usage it comes down to "m-muh feels" and senile telling everyone else "stop being an idiot" is the only thing that ever gets something unbanned around here. There is actual debate that occurs within the Tier Council before anything gets banned. As it was pointed out @Gunthug, it forced everyone into either running Baton Pass teams (overly centralizing) or extremely niche teams to prevent (walled or stalled a significant portion of the metagame). Basically you either ran Baton Pass or you ran something to counter it. Having Baton Pass around severely stagnated the meta at the time it was banned and therefore needed to be banned. Link to comment
Tranzmaster Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 45 minutes ago, raddevil said: stop using gay as pejorative, u pig epicdavenport, Telf, Shuck and 3 others 6 Link to comment
raddevil Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tranzmaster said: duh Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, XelaKebert said: There is actual debate that occurs within the Tier Council before anything gets banned. As it was pointed out @Gunthug, it forced everyone into either running Baton Pass teams (overly centralizing) or extremely niche teams to prevent (walled or stalled a significant portion of the metagame). Basically you either ran Baton Pass or you ran something to counter it. Having Baton Pass around severely stagnated the meta at the time it was banned and therefore needed to be banned. Uhm, no. This was never actually a thing. Baton Pass was never the norm in PokeMMO metagame ever. There were a few particular Baton Passers some used in their team but it never was a norm in the PokeMMO metagame back in the old days. The "either Baton Pass or Baton Pass countering niche team" is a huge hyperbole, to say the least. When ThinkNice initiated the discussion to ban Baton Pass for its uncompetitive nature, it got massive resistance. I remember that most people were confused what is even going on because no one considered it exactly overpowered and that was never what ThinkNice or any of the current Tier Council argued for. They argued for its uncompetitive nature. The whole concept of "uncompetitiveness" was completely unfamiliar for the common PokeMMO player but when it was argued that "Well, isn't this kind of bullshit and doesn't need any predictions" then some people were like "Yeah, I can see where you're coming from". But Baton Pass (unlike everything else that gets banned) wasn't banned for being overpowered at its time, not even the slightest. When the current Tier Council opposes Baton Pass, I know it's simply because they've played later generations and noticed how cancerous Baton Pass can be in Smogon metas. I agree, Baton Pass has the tools to make a metagame unplayable. However, it is highly metagame related: The metagame needs both good Baton Passers and receivers for boosts for Baton Pass to be actually overpowered. There are certain generation metagames with lack of these and this makes Baton Pass be less effective in some metagames where the ban of Baton Pass wasn't found to be necessary, whereas there are some generations where Baton Pass is straight up obnoxious and it is banned from its respective generation. Basically, this is the main disagreement what I have with Tier Council about Baton Pass: They have the pictures of mind of the stupid shit Baton Pass did in for example Generation 6 and Generation 7 metagame, whereas I'm skeptical whether it needs a ban in our metagame. I guess the Tier Council just feels that even if Baton Pass isn't exactly "broken" in our environment, it's still a stupid move and brings no virtues for the competitive play and I can definitely see where they're coming from with that point of view. But stating that Baton Pass got banned / is still banned due to being "overpowered" is just simply false. About the comparison to Volt Switch and U-Turn, well, they're stupid moves as well. Let's not defend them. But the thing is, banning any actual damage inducing move just seems... silly. Like not even silly but literally out of the question. Banning any damage dealing move no matter of its other effects would set a bad precedent and therefor would never be in question. Then you could argue for the ban of Fiery Dance, Ancientpower, you could see where this is going. So banning Baton Pass in no means has to draw any kind of parallel to damage dealing moves that kind of have the same effect as Baton Pass does. Therefor if the argue point is "Maybe Baton Pass isn't worth a ban" I could possibly agree but arguing that U-Turn and Volt Switch shouldn't be allowed because Baton Pass isn't would just be simply a wrong approach to this comparison. (Not saying that is what the OP states, but the comparison if A is fine why B isn't kinda implies they should be treated equally) Edited November 28, 2017 by OrangeManiac FNTCZ, Roundabout, HoonDini and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
Risadex Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Prankster Tail Glow + Baton Bass volbeat is cancer nty However, I think (how now the meta is freshly new) you can make a test in the server them notice how the things goes on. WIth smogon baton pass clauses for gen VI + ofc Link to comment
Gunthug Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 @OrangeManiac you are spot on with the uncompetitive analysis, that's what it boils down to for me. You win or lose v baton pass in teambuilding, there's not much playing around it since the move bypasses your attempts to double switch or make predictions. We definitely disagree though on whether it needs to be tested in our unique meta, which is fine. In my opinion, I've never once seen a metagame where baton pass was even remotely competitive. To me, the brokenness of the move exists outside the realm of its surroundings - it's broken on its face (prima facie) and any test would do more harm than good, imo RysPicz, BurntZebra and OrangeManiac 3 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 7 hours ago, raddevil said: stop using gay as pejorative, u pig dont take me too seriously. this is the internet and everyone including all my gay friends use the word gay like that. it doesnt has any deeper meaning. Link to comment
KoolT93 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 On 28/11/2017 at 6:15 PM, fredrichnietze said: dont take me too seriously. this is the internet and everyone including all my gay friends use the word gay like that. it doesnt has any deeper meaning. Dont joke you dont have friends at all Telf and Laz 2 Link to comment
jcsouza Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 (edited) I've said that once, and I'll say it again. An invincible argument: it is allowed in the world championship, so banishing is bullshit. Just that... Edited December 24, 2017 by jcsouza Wrong language. DaftCoolio 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 29 minutes ago, jcsouza said: I've said that once, and I'll say it again. An invincible argument: it is allowed in the world championship, so banishing is bullshit. Just that... 10/10 argument. Regirock is NU in a different meta, here it's LC. I'm convinced, unban baton pass pls. Link to comment
jcsouza Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, RysPicz said: 10/10 argument. Regirock is NU in a different meta, here it's LC. I'm convinced, unban baton pass pls. A meta game you created with your deranged mind and cauncil isn't a meta at all. So again get regirock in the bag and add to the already used argument: it is allowed in the world championship. Debating with you was really nice. RysPicz 1 Link to comment
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