BaliAds

ty everyone who joined

ty everyone who joined

ty everyone who joined

Imagine retiring from pokemmo 🤣

Description 
Hey everyone, I am here today to celebrate the retirement and long lived story of @BaliAds He has asked me to host a 50M tag tournament in his honor (Don't ask my why on such short notice). This tournament with be a 5v5 tag format. Tiers are OU, UU, NU, Dubs, UT. To register either post here or DM me on Discord @necasintrouble. 

Date & Time
Sunday, 28th April | 11AM EST | 3PM UTC | 4PM BST

Location
Silph Co Ch 5, Kanto

Rules

Format 
5v5
OU, UU, NU, Doubles, Untiered

Standard Single and Double Battle Rules 
(Please make sure when challenging doubles you chose the Ubers tier)
Bracket will be made 5-10 minutes prior to event start and randomized

Activity Wins
If a player has failed to show up by 10 minutes after the last duel starts you may whisper me to get an activity win

Registration
You must register at least 5 players (One for each tier) and at max 6 (Allowing for 1 substitute)
Prizes
1st Place
50M to split between all participating members

(Prizes may take a few days to distribute)

Favourite PokeMMO memory, well there's a few but the one that's most relevant is the first PCL, meeting you @Onraider properly and playing along with @BaliAds in losers game, some of the shit we came up with in a meta that's much less stressful and more fun to play was a great experience, isn't the same this time around without having both of you playing. But you getting MVP and involving us all so much was a great time along with winning the event, it's been a pleasure.

IGN:Curseman
 
I am one of @NecasInTrouble's homies.
 
Nah tbh im glad i met everyone who i have met through mmo and ill list a few ones here
@BaliAds
@ImTheWalrusHere
@NecasInTrouble
@atlewis
@JeanMarc
@Susume
@Levibull
@ICEJAEGER
@Thatsapanda
@UGUDLIGHT
@Crible
 
Sorry if i missed any1. But i appreciate all of yall.

As we have recently learnt what could potentially be dropping and rising in the tier I would like to take a moment to request a discussion about Venusaur and the consequences it could potentially have if it were to drop. 

Firstly we can talk about the last time Venusaur was in NU and how it effected the tier back then. Pre-HA Venusaur was healthy for the tier had very decent usage and still had reliable checks. The main reason I am bringing this point up is due to those 'checks' now no longer being in the tier. Previously we had access to both clefable and nidoqueen which were great options at stopping venusaur - nidoqueen is no longer here and clefable looks to be moving up. We're losing the best checks to something that was very prevalent in the meta the last time it was around. Currently I can't see many suitable checks and at best I can see altaria and a half check is bronzor which can't keep up with venusaur.

Now let's talk about the addition of it's HA, I don't think I need to mention this too in depth, but we can all see why it's a great ability and the fact there are many viable setters in NU to capitalise and provide sunnyday, Sableye and Whimsicott being the main ones... there are more but i don't think we need to mention past these two. Venu then gets the chance to growth or even sleep anything it wants in the tier with no issue. The threat a correct growth call or sleep into growth provides for venu is seriously so threatening to the tier and the handful of checks for it.

Finally I want to also talk about the potential addition of Gigalith to NU - if both Gigalith and Venusaur are NU we are sure to see a return to weather battles, between sun teams and sand teams gigalith would enable stoutland sandslash teams to run through most of the tier, the fact u can still add venusaur to a team like this make it fit and have a slight answer for opposing sun teams and also have an answer for altaria through weatherball in sand is ridiculous on top to consider.

I don't think Venusaur makes for a healthy meta game and would like to further discuss this in a discussion thread made for Venusaur, since this is just an initial comment I hope TC won't just straight up ignore it and we can have a discussion thread made for this. 

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

I think the reason we haven't heard much is because the tier right now is dealing with several 'broken' pokemon at the same time. You've got really pressing concerns in both Venomoth and Gigalith which are busted af evidently from their win rates in the tier, Sand teams are great right now and no one can disprove the amount of utility gigalith provides on it's own. Venomoth is the other bigbad which is ruining and making their tier uncompetitive af get a sleep powder off and set up to victory.

Neither of these really stand in the way of saying Venusaur is busted af (because it is) but they just provide so much more pain and tears to the point Venusaur isn't really talked about right now. I think once these two are gone (gigalith and venomoth are looking likely to go based on usage and damn right they should be gone) you'll see the impact of venusaur a lot more. Overall all three of these mons are busted in their own right and should not be in the tier.

I think the reason we haven't heard much is because the tier right now is dealing with several 'broken' pokemon at the same time. You've got really pressing concerns in both Venomoth and Gigalith which are busted af evidently from their win rates in the tier, Sand teams are great right now and no one can disprove the amount of utility gigalith provides on it's own. Venomoth is the other bigbad which is ruining and making their tier uncompetitive af get a sleep powder off and set up to victory.

Neither of these really stand in the way of saying Venusaur is busted af (because it is) but they just provide so much more pain and tears to the point Venusaur isn't really talked about right now. I think once these two are gone (gigalith and venomoth are looking likely to go based on usage and damn right they should be gone) you'll see the impact of venusaur a lot more. Overall all three of these mons are busted in their own right and should not be in the tier.

What is this?
 
This thread is being opened to discuss Venusaur being added to the NU Tier by usage. Venusaur has fallen below the 4.36% cut-off point. A quick vote was made but didn't gather a unanimous response to ban, and thus we are opening a discussion thread to consider a possible ban to BL2.
 
 
What to know?
 
Venusaur is a strong-offensive option that can potentially sweep the tier and also provide utility depending on its set. Venusaur having it's HA, Chlorophyll makes it an extremely threatening pokemon and has enough support in Sableye, Whimsicott, Rotom, Claydol, Xatu - all capable of setting sun and then switching into Venusaur at an appropriate time. Venusaur then has access to devestate the entire tier with sleep powder and growth enabling it to go to +2 in an instant. It also has the necessary speed, under sun, to clear offensive threats and it also has enough bulk, recovery in synthesis/Giga Drain and great resistances to easily sleep/set-up vs the limited and lackluster specially defensive pokemon in NU, (calcs will follow). Venusaur can't be poisoned so stalling it is not a great option either. Previously when Venusaur was NU we had Specially defensive 'checks' for it in Nidoqueen and Clefable, neither of these are an options anymore. Just to note these are pokemon I've seen mentioned by members of the community as 'potential checks': Xatu, Gigalith, Golbat, Bronzor, Altaria, Gligar, and Mantine. Most of these pokemon are susceptible to sleep powder or being easily swept once Venusaur has set up. With that in mind we believe it's right to bring a suspect test to see if NU can handle a monster like Venusaur.
 
Noteworthy Sets:

Sun Sweeper: Growth, Giga Drain/Solar Beam, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball/Hidden Power Ice
Sleep Powder: Sleep Powder, Growth, Giga Drain, Weather Ball/SludgeBomb
Manual Setter: Sunny Day, Growth, Giga Drain, Weather Ball
Defensive: Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Synthesis, Leech Seed
 
Xatu Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sun: 92-109 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu: 83-99 (48.2 - 57.5%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sun: 183-216 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu: 165-195 (95.9 - 113.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xatu in Sand: 122-146 (70.9 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
 
Golbat Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sun: 60-71 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sun: 118-140 (64.8 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat in Sand: 81-96 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
 
Gigalith Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 86-104 (44.7 - 54.1%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 133-156 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 172-203 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Bronzor Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Bronzor in Sun: 120-143 (73.1 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Bronzor in Sun: 237-281 (144.5 - 171.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Altaria Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 234-276 (128.5 - 151.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 114-140 (62.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (edited)
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in Sand: 96-114 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Gligar Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 104-125 (60.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gligar: 203-244 (118 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Mantine Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 55-64 (28.6 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 105-125 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 87-105 (45.3 - 54.6%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine in Sand: 78-94 (40.6 - 48.9%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Munchlax Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 75-90 (30.9 - 37.1%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 148-175 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Munchlax: 148-175 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Piloswine Calcs:
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 74-90 (47.7 - 58%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
 
Cloyster Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 108-128 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Give us your input and discuss
 
 

As far as I'm aware a pokemon has to go into Ubers before it is nerfed, or at least this was the policy that has been followed in previous instances when Garchomp went uber then swords dance was removed, when Hydreigon went uber then Draco Meteor was removed and same with Wobbuffet when it went uber then shadow tag was nerfed iirc.
 
Have patience and see what happens with Gallade, neither the TC or the staff handling the competitive scene want anything in Ubers and will make a change when appropriate.

What is this?
 
Porygon-Z has been dying in Borderline 1 for several months and given recent additions to Pokemmo including Assault Gear, some Hidden Abilities, and access to new moves, the Tier Council has voted to suspect test Porygon-Z in the [UU] tier as its usage has once again fallen in [OU].
 
What to know?
 
Porygon-Z was considered too much for [UU] offensively the last time around, and that could very well still be true. We are hoping to prove with practical data, given the aforementioned changes, that this is still the case.
 
Noteworthy sets?
 
Choice Specs w/ Download (or Adaptability)
- Tri-Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire/Psychic/Dark Pulse
 
Choice Scarf w/ Download
- Tri-Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Fire/Psychic/Dark Pulse
 
Sweeper w/ Download (or Adaptability) - Life Orb or Leftovers
- Tri-Attack
- Ice Beam/Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute/Agility/Recover
 
Hit-and-Run w/ Download (or Adaptability) - Life Orb
- Tri- Attack
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Teleport
 
Noteworthy calcs?
 
It hits everything, really, really hard, but it's made of paper. The tier has overall become more hostile for Porygon-Z though with the addition of more offense such as Mach Punch Machamp, Vacuum Wave Toxicroak and Poliwrath, Feraligatr and Crawdaunt, and of course the great offense stopper: Ambipom. It's overpowered attacks feel less overpowered now with the addition of Assault Gear on the likes of Spiritomb, and it has to contend once again with its greatest [UU] rival: Empoleon.
 
 
Please take your time to review the [UU] tier as we suspect test Porygon-Z for at least 1 month, or seasonal cycle. The tier council will the move forward with a vote when ready and a simple majority vote will determine whether pZ is still BL2 or if it's fit for [UU].
 
 
Please discuss.

@BaliAds 
 
Mentioning Gigalith as a potential check is a really good point and something that could certainly rise to [UU] as a possible answer. 
 
I think we'll just have to wait and see how usage evolves this cycle, and this concern will certainly be taken into consideration as we proceed with these tests. 

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

To be honest I think Porygon-z might not actually be bad for UU it's got reliable counters now in Empoleon and Gigalith which both provide great bulk in stopping it. It also is great for putting a check to the stall-meta which is so prevalent in UU right now.

My main issue with adding PZ to UU is this will almost assuredly raise the amount of usage Gigalith gets and bring it back into UU by the next tier changes, meaning Venomoth becomes even harder to stop in NU and any data we get from this month with Venomoth (if it is deemed suitable for NU, I doubt it will anyway) becomes redundant as we're probably losing the biggest check to it in a month. I don't think it was right to suspect test these two pokemon at the same time as we're pretty much having NU screwed over and UU screwed over every other month by the looks of things. 

I'm not saying the overall issues with the tiers are TC's fault, and I'm sure we can find a solution for the problems the tiers are facing but stuff like this needs to be better considered before a decision is made since it's hurting both tiers.

Well, to the joy of some and the anger of others, Shaymin just moved to UUBL with the offensive uber characteristics, I was thinking of making a post explaining this in more detail, but I think I clarified a lot of things when I made the suspect post.
 
Thank you all for giving your opinion, it really influenced a lot when making these votes.
 
The change will be made at the end of the season along with the rest of the movements.
 
 
 

 

Hello everyone, the Tier Council has just started the discussion about Shaymin in the Under Used metagame, feel free to give the opinions you have playing the tier, before giving your opinion take the following into account:
 
- Avoid derailing the thread.
- Please try to provide preference calculations to justify your opinion, it is not mandatory, but it would be very helpful to expedite the discussion.
 
 

 
 
            Reason for discussion     
 
Hi, as you all know, Shaymin the first legendary added to our metagame dropped to UnderUsed a few months ago. While it wasn't discussed at the time because he needed a bit of sample time to see how he fit in, we think it's time to discuss his stay in the tier.
 
Shaymin is a Pokémon that has very high and decent statistics due to its singular characteristic, with an above-average speed, also having great bulk despite being generally used as a sweeper, although the special attack is somewhat poor compared to others  things, it is when the movement that we should talk about enters and that is probably a reason for discussion.
 
Seed flare  has a chance to reduce the special defense by 2 levels 40% of the time, this causes shaymin's counters to end up being pressured and/or weakened from the next hit they receive, this added to its good bulk makes you dependent on not activate 40% to be able to handle it effectively. In addition to a power of 120, it still hits strong offensive pokemon resistant to it, for which it ends up weakening them due to its superior speed. It also gets psychic for those poison like crobat or roserade that come in to take seed flare, or hp ice to threaten dragons like salamence, hp fire to pressure bronzong or remove durant and forre that come in on most of their moves.
Recovery to recover incoming hits, which allows it due to its high bulk.  
And the new access to sleep powder that makes it gain momentum/keep pressing with other moves while taking advantage of sleep turns, works against their counters
The most used set is a Life Orb set with 3 attacks + recovery, based on taking advantage of its speed and special attack, while it recovers the hits it can withstand well, usually any that is not effective.
Defensive sets have also been seen that are based on wearing down with leechseed + rocky to pressure with seed flare
Some calculations towards possibles counter
Now, let's remember that as I said before, shaymin has enough speed to pass through many offensive things in the metagame, let's move on to common  check/ offensive  mons that aren't weak to seed flare.
 
Although everything seems in favor of shaymin , he also has his problems, Some choice scarf users can take seed flare and pressure/kill it
-Scarce pp of seed flare: 8 pp is something that goes quickly, especially when it is your move to spam
-Seed flare has a chance to miss
-60% of not activating the drop
-Bouffalant(Centralization, here we go) 
 
 
Feel free to discuss or give your opinion on what you have in mind, in this case I will take care of reading each comment carefully
 

Well time to revive this chat. I'm here to discuss the possibility of adding "Safety Goggles" to the game and removing Sleep Clause from the Doubles format. I currently feel like with where the meta is at this would be a good addition. Currently there is more than enough Grass types circulating (I.E. Serperior, Rotom Mow, Amoongus, Ludicolo to name a few) that there is adequate counter play to Spore and Sleep Powder (The main forms of sleep in Doubles). As well this would increase the use of Sun which is currently pretty poor into the meta and add more counter play into Trick Room and even Follow me style teams. Also with the addition of "Safety Goggles" it would really only effect the Doubles meta game aside a few niche option in singles. Would also add a much needed shake up to the current stale meta game in Doubles.

As we have recently learnt what could potentially be dropping and rising in the tier I would like to take a moment to request a discussion about Venusaur and the consequences it could potentially have if it were to drop. 

Firstly we can talk about the last time Venusaur was in NU and how it effected the tier back then. Pre-HA Venusaur was healthy for the tier had very decent usage and still had reliable checks. The main reason I am bringing this point up is due to those 'checks' now no longer being in the tier. Previously we had access to both clefable and nidoqueen which were great options at stopping venusaur - nidoqueen is no longer here and clefable looks to be moving up. We're losing the best checks to something that was very prevalent in the meta the last time it was around. Currently I can't see many suitable checks and at best I can see altaria and a half check is bronzor which can't keep up with venusaur.

Now let's talk about the addition of it's HA, I don't think I need to mention this too in depth, but we can all see why it's a great ability and the fact there are many viable setters in NU to capitalise and provide sunnyday, Sableye and Whimsicott being the main ones... there are more but i don't think we need to mention past these two. Venu then gets the chance to growth or even sleep anything it wants in the tier with no issue. The threat a correct growth call or sleep into growth provides for venu is seriously so threatening to the tier and the handful of checks for it.

Finally I want to also talk about the potential addition of Gigalith to NU - if both Gigalith and Venusaur are NU we are sure to see a return to weather battles, between sun teams and sand teams gigalith would enable stoutland sandslash teams to run through most of the tier, the fact u can still add venusaur to a team like this make it fit and have a slight answer for opposing sun teams and also have an answer for altaria through weatherball in sand is ridiculous on top to consider.

I don't think Venusaur makes for a healthy meta game and would like to further discuss this in a discussion thread made for Venusaur, since this is just an initial comment I hope TC won't just straight up ignore it and we can have a discussion thread made for this. 

First, I'm not going to expect any of TC to make a thread before usage movements are actually finalized, things change even if it may seem unlikely.  As for your next step, garner enough support from a member of TC to where they will draft a thread for review/posting.  Only need to convince one.