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pachima

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Posts posted by pachima

    That moment when someone actually posts interesting stuff about this meta and everyone else tries to mock at them for absolutely no reason other than showing they don't understand the meta lmao.

    Darken is fundamentally correct. We are beyond the point where we can get a truly balanced meta. We are beyond the point where we have all the tools to deal with a few problematic threats.

     

    Garchomp has almost 50% usage in a meta where it is undisrupted. We lack the speed and the power to actually pressure it offensively. (Can't wait for all Weavile argments. A pokemon that would be otherwise not even OU)

    Rotom-Wash has literally nothing in the tier (Besides Serperior, which people want banned), that punishes defog. That shouldn't happen at all. Shifting momentum offensively against defog users is one of the best ways Offense/Balance can get theirselves advantage. You simply cannot do that against Rotom-Wash. No matter what you send against it, Rotom can find itself able to regain momentum back with a slow Volt switch after defogging or a status move.

    I lied. There is one pokemon: Hydreigon. (Which is nerfed either way)

     

    We don't have Latios/Latias/Kyurem, the first two would pressure both Garchomp and Rotom-Wash offensively, and the latter would pressure Rotom-wash.

    We don't have Celebi/Zapdos that would be able to withstand their momentum defensively.

    We don't have Water absorb Seismitoad as a much better Gastrodon to actually punish Rotom and/or be able to set hazards on it.

     

    Is serperior a problem in the tier? Yes, it is. But before jumping out on conclusions, why don't we try to actually understand where this problem comes from? Is it from itself? Or is it from the meta being so terribly centralized around already problematic things that are left unchecked that we have no space to handle something else? In other words, is it THE problem, or is it an extension of the real problem? 

     

    Does this mean Serperior should not be banned? No. It means other stuff needs to be discussed first. Otherwise, banning Serperior would be similar as trying to retrieve water from a sinking ship back to the ocean with a tea spoon, instead of fixing the cause of the problem.

     

     

    8 hours ago, KaynineXL said:

    While I do believe Serperior is incredibly difficult to deal with in the current OU metagame, I'd find it a real shame if it was nerfed enough to remove it from OU simply for the fact it's very refreshing to see a Pokemon actually able to not only come in on Rotom W, but also punish it.

     

    Personally, I think if removing Glare was a possibility that would be adequate. 

     

    While seeing what Serperior can do in play, it's hard to believe it's only a 95 base power Pokemon which means without it's gargantuan 130 BP STAB Leaf Storm coupled with it's ability to go +2 with contrary, it doesn't actually do a great deal to a large quantity of offensive threats in OU which have priority or are faster with scarf.

     

    The issue is, paralysis is the bane to all naturally fast/scarf Pokemon.

    you mean 75.

    Yeah, serp does nothing at +0. It cant even sweep offensive teams at +2. It needs a minimum of +4in order to run through teams.

    Unfortunately, grass spam is so free in OU 😞

    TLDR; Ban serperior until even more broken stuff come, ignoring the fact the argument pretty much folds to itself while also ignoring the fact MMO will be forced to change their mentality when it comes to offensive bans with HA/legendaries, no matter what they want or they think they want.

     

    Otherwise, please stop suggesting legendaries because there is no way we can have half of them if apparently serperior is too strong.

     

     

    1 hour ago, gbwead said:

    Every single part of this sentence is untrue.

    No, its not. And I suggest you to learn how your metronome actually works and to understand how far from the accurate calcs Smogon's calcs with this item are. 

    Unless the item is not working as intended, Chansey stops Any non leech Serperior.

    5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

    idk what you mean by that, but 55,77% winrate is high. 

    Its high, but nothting critical

     

    5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

    i will make it simple :
    Weezing can lose to Serperior without RNG even more if you play a bold weezing (most commun weezing in the game)
    Golbat can lose to serperior if rocks are one the field and para proc 1 time 

    This is misleading. Weezing can lose to Serperior the same way some Pokemon can lose to a random freeze. You need at least 3 para procs in a row to beat weezing, which let me tell you, its much less probable than a random freeze. The same goes for golbat, although golbat is slightly more vulnerable to it.

     

    5 minutes ago, AwaXGoku said:

     

    i dont get it ? i never speak about serperior without boost , my main point was about his ability in addition to his movepool and speed that make it unhealthy in the meta.
     

    Grass is one of the worse types offensively. If your team can't pressure grass moves to the point of you never speaking of Serperior without boosts, its maybe time to reconsider the entire team.

     

    2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:


    What i wanted to point is that actually Serperior has no real counter and the few check we can use are not really usefull and/or too much based on rng. 

     

    First you cannot post such broad terms and hope they stick. Please explain which mons can counter/check Serperior and how those rely on RNG.

    Second, we have a few stuff that reliably counter most Serperior sets, fearing only the Paralyze (But let's real, we cannot focus on Glare alone): Clefable - Weezing. Chansey also comfortably tanks most sets, only fearing the subLeech set that isn't too common right now.

    2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:


    Serperior is also one of the fastest mon in the tier so it makes it difficult to revenge kill it without a scarf user that can OHKO it (or you might get para lol) or Weavile.
    He also has a nice bulk so it make it even more ennoying to deal with it. 

    Fair enough.

    2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:


    The last thing is that he has 6% usage but 20+% in tournament which is more relevent than the classic usage since he just recently added and cost a lot to breed for new player/poor player. 

    This doesn't tell much. 20+% usage in tours is nothing extraordinary and doesn't warrant any decision based on it.

    2 hours ago, AwaXGoku said:


    In conclusion ,my opinion is that Serperior isnt healthy for the actual OU metagame and should be banned/ban contrary until we have acces to more HA pokemon that can deal with it.

    How did you reach this conclusion?

     

    Its also worth noting Serperior has virtually no offensive pressure before setting up the the point where Super effective hits stil are unable to beat what they are supposed to hit (Not even a x4 HP fire ohko uninvested Scizor, for instance), which also means it is possible to pressure it offensively before it has the boosts.

     

    All in all Serperior is definitely a controversial Pokemon and may be problematic but I fail to deem it so based on what you just said. 

    On 7/26/2022 at 11:55 PM, Imperial said:

    Cursed body

    1. People typically spam substitute on Gengar in the hope of activating the ability against certain Pokemon
    2. If a Pokemon is choice scarfed/banded they are locked in one move - once the ability activates after they attack, they are forced to switch out and lose momentum when they at least have a chance to stay in and attack for another turn if cursed body didn't activate

    Arena Trap

    Basically acts as a revenge killer - for example pretend Infernape manages to successfully kill one of the opposing mons, they can then send out Dugtrio to 1KO it with Earthquake (and no I won't be like Caioxlive and use the Mach Punch scenario)

     

    Shadow Tag

    You didn't ask this but I'll include it - although they nerfed it to 3 turns, Wobbuffet can also pretty much be a viable revenge killer. For example depending on the opposing mon they can just use Counter/Mirror Coat to KO or use Encore to gather momentum by gaining a free switch into a potential threat

    I just saw this now, but cursed body doesn't proc if the user is behind a substitute.

    I swear this community cant have good things. They must be so used to literal garbage that they criticize any attempt at creating an actual organized, polished and better version of what we already had. 

     

    So, for the love of God, let the man work. He has been doing an enormous piece of effort towards what seems to be a really well crafted season. Of course every change of this magnitude comes with unpolished, unoptimized, and maybe some unwanted features or decisions (Not for everyone at least). However, watch this event as a whole, instead of nitpicking every small detail that has no reason to since there is still plenty of time before this actually begin. 

     

    For the first time in a World Cup, this season looks good. Don't ruin it for others or for yourselves because of your unbreakable inertia of changes.

    On 7/10/2022 at 2:22 PM, CaptnBaklava said:

    Technician Fake Out + Quick Attack are like a 180 Base Power move with Stab. The amount of switches for Last Resort Ambipom that aren't ghost types are quite limited and easily abused by u-turn. 

    You are right with the point that a team should be able to deal with it, that's why I use Steelix in everyone for now. 

    Things like my HO Rain are just unplayable tho. 

    They have carracosta, relicanth and huntail can sucker punch to outspeed Quick attack. 

    Thats far from unplayable. 

     

    20 hours ago, CaptnBaklava said:

    Can we talk about Ambipom + Quick Attack and Fake Out completely demolishing any atemps to play Offense in NU? It was really good against Offense before and a 2nd priority move makes it even better. 

    You don't need to stay and take the double priority. Just switch to anything that can (And a lot can).

    If your team cannot switch against double priority normal stab, then it cannot switch against any powerful normal move. If it has no answers for normal spam, you should re-evaluate your team. 

    Just because you are forced to lose a bit of momentum by switching to the appropriate Pokemon, doesn't mean Ambipom is an issue, unless those answers are scarce, which is not the case.

    ·

    Edited by pachima

    Allow me to try to explain why this creates an unhealthy loop.

     

    Let's suppose, by the given example, Serperior won't be used in OU cause it is not good enough. Let's also suppose that, to avoid it from happening, we remove something from Serperior, to make it usable in other tiers. 

     

    Problem 1: If we complex ban Serperior, then by the same argument we are forced to complex ban every other Pokemon in the same circumstances (Aka not used in OU). Where or when do we draw the line?

     

    Problem 2: Let's ignore problem 1 for now and assume we complex banned Serperior. Next season there will always be something else that dropped to low usage because Serperior left. 
             - Should we Complex ban that something else?
                          - By the same argument yes. If Serperior was complexed because it had no usage, whatever drops enough should also be. But this creates a loop, because everytime we remove a Pokemon from OU, something else will drop enough to fill the same spot, so we would be removing stuff indefinitely.

                          - Then we shouldn't complex ban that something else. But think about it: Doesn't this mean we shouldn't have complexed Serperior in the first place?

     

    Problem 3: State of the below tiers. If we keep dumping Pokemon from the higher tier to the lower one, we may reach a point where everything below is viable. If everything is viable, games are now decided by matchup, because it simply is not possible to cover everything that is viable at once. The result? A metagame similar to NU like an year ago, where every offensive Pokemon was so good that most matches were decided before they even started and where a lot of tournament finals ended within 5 minutes, winning whoever had the one Pokemon that 6-0'd the enemy team.

     

    But now let's ignore all this and claim: But we can just complex ban a few things and ignore the rest. 

    Well, you can't. First, where do you draw the line? Second, this process would be subjective, therefore biased, thus while you could be satisifed with it, someone else would maybe like if a different array of Pokemon was complexed instead. 

     

     

    Finally, to answer the post above: I may not be remembering correctly, but the only complex ban MMO tried to do (Ignoring stuff that would otherwise rise to UBER) was snorlax's Body slam in Gen3, something that opened the Pandora Box in these forums for too long and something I'd never want to face again. 

     

    Sorry for the long post. This subject is really really controversial and I wanted to lay down everything I wanted to express, at once.

    Either way, because this is the UU discussion thread, a few notes why I personally believe Empoleon is problematic in the tier:

     

    - First of all stall teams are vastly dominating the UU meta in unhealthy ways (Crobat has 60.7% usage in all stage 4+ UU battles. Empoleon comes second with 46,4%. Porygon-z is the only offensive Pokemon in the bunch with 30,4% usage and Machamp/Krookodile are the most used offensive Pokemon that come next, sharing the 8th position at 20,5% usage. (The other Pokemon are, in order, Rotom-H (Which is mostly used as a bulky pivot) - Bronzong - Flygon (Mostly used sepcially defensive in these battles) and Spiritomb. 

    - Unlike every other defensive Pokemon in the tier there are almost no offensive pokemon that can effectively switch on Empoleon (And the very few that do are rendered useless to Crobat). This creates an environment where, unlike before, Stallbreakers cannot come and pressure the enemy stall team, except they are forced to eventually come if they want to break said team, risking dying in the process.

    - Again, unlike every other defensive Pokemon in the tier, Empoleon doesn't care much about Taunt. Worse, it can be even used in stall teams to sponge most taunt users in the tier.

     

    In short, by eliminating, or minimizing, the arguably 2 biggest weaknesses in any stall team, Empoleon has made unbalancedly strong for the tier.

    As a relevant note, the sample used contains 56 stage4+ teams, which I admit is a low sample, but it is currently impossible to spectate further matches. I will, however, keep the numbers updated once a new UU tournament comes.

     

    Lastly: Why do I consider late rounds usage more accurate than the overall usage? Simply because plenty of not as experienced players that participate in the first rounds dilute the usage with not as relevant team compositions.

    21 hours ago, Quinn010 said:

    will you guys look at pz again if empoleon leave the tier ? 

    Yes. P-Z is currently the only offensive mon being used out of the 7 most common Pokemon used by stage4+ players. Gotta ban it. How dare we have the audacity to have an offensive pokemon share the same spotlight as 6 other wall/supportlike comrades?

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