Introducing More Legendaries to Doubles

[Rakhmaninov]

Hi everyone!

 

As we've seen the release of legendary pokemon such as Zapdos, Suicune and Shaymin, the Doubles metagame has quickly developed into a much more interesting format than the bland and boring metagame that it was before.

In this thread I'd like to discuss other potentially interesting legendary Pokemon which would be interesting additions to the format, without making it too unbalanced.

I hope this can provide the developers with some insights into nurturing a balanced and interesting metagame.

Please provide feedback and criticism in the comments!

 

Roaming Legendary Trios 

The addition of the legendary birds (Zapdos, Articuno & Moltres) and beasts (Suicune, Raikou & Entei) suggest that more roaming legendaries might be introduced in future! 

So how would each legendary roaming trio affect the metagame?

 

The Lake Trio

Probably the safest legendaries to add next, Azelf in particular would be an interesting lead with stealth rock+explosion. Uxie would also make quite a valuable trick room setter. Mesprit is the weakest of the three, and can be easily dealt with by common doubles threats.

 

The Regi Trio

 

Along with the Lake Trio, the 3 Regis would be great additions to doubles. Registeel would be a particularly interesting steel type addition. Assault Vest Regirock might also be an interesting choice, with its 80/200/100 base defenses.

 

The Justice Trio

 

Terrakion is probably a bit too powerful to add right now. Virizion and Coballion are up for debate, and would definitely make for potential additions in the future. However, Beat Up+Justified combos would be a pain to deal with, forcing players to use strategies such as a follow me user in order to deal with it. A powerful trio with a lot of potential in the future...

 

Legendary Rankings

(Not Including Title Legendaries)

 

Ban-Worthy

 

S Tier

A bit too powerful right now, these would change the metagame, but would make interesting additions in the future!

 

A+ Tier

These legendary pokemon are on the borderline, they're a bit too powerful right now, but not quite as powerful as S Tier

 

A Tier

These would cause a power-creep in the metagame, but can be handled by existing Pokemon

B Tier

Suitable to add, with a small impact on the metagame

 

C Tier

Weak and useless

 

What do you think?

 

 

Edited March 22 by Rakhmaninov

[Goku]

The Regis will make a cool addition to the game imo.

[PKTxKharma]

If we release some S legendary, shaymin sky form would be at least A but not S to be fair, some terrorist set with parax things but honnestly on the S tier there's more stronger mon
regigigas sucks in double with his ability, 
thundurus both form are strong af but the normal with prankster would be annoying af with tailwind/rain+twave as well  and can hit hard
Rain archetype will become more strong as it already dominate on smogon meta, will be maybe less powerfull as weather doesn't stay forever
and dunno feel like deoxys attack form might be bann  worth or release at last
and for the god sake , if thundurus is in the game, make a suspct test for swagger move 

[Jgaw]

I believe that the game tends to release the regi trio next

And this is gonna be fantastic

[RysPicz]

Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S are B tier along with Celebi and Phione? In which universe? xd

[Rakhmaninov]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S are B tier along with Celebi and Phione? In which universe? xd

Okay I'll move them up ahahaha

Wrote this pretty quick and thought they were just a bit worse than stuff like cresselia and darkrai

[Rakhmaninov]

2 hours ago, PKTxKharma said:

If we release some S legendary, shaymin sky form would be at least A but not S to be fair, some terrorist set with parax things but honnestly on the S tier there's more stronger mon
regigigas sucks in double with his ability, 
thundurus both form are strong af but the normal with prankster would be annoying af with tailwind/rain+twave as well  and can hit hard
Rain archetype will become more strong as it already dominate on smogon meta, will be maybe less powerfull as weather doesn't stay forever
and dunno feel like deoxys attack form might be bann  worth or release at last
and for the god sake , if thundurus is in the game, make a suspct test for swagger move 

Regigigas+weezing is a pretty lethal combo...

[GautSam]

They will make the PvP a lot more interesting. Some might be too op some not but we will have more options in all the tiers. 

[OrangeManiac]

I agree that the game needs more legendary implementation as soon as possible. As you demonstrated, we still are lacking a large variety of legendaries into the game. Starting from somewhere would be very welcome.

 

I agree that The Lake Trio and the Regi trio would be the safest additions to the game. I would probably go as far as saying that their effect on MMO Doubles metagame is not going to be all that notable. From the Lake Trio, Azelf is probably the only one having some kind of theoretical niche with reasonable good Speed and Special attack and decent coverage. The Regi Trio doesn't seem all that impactful to me. Being slow and weak to Fighting kinda defaults you into a mid-tier Trick Room sweeper, at best. Justice Trio also sounds interesting, Terrakion would probably cause at least some impact on the metagame (if for nothing else, than the Beat Up Justified cheese).

 

I think I'm slightly more cautious with other legendaries compared to you, I'll go over them one by one.

 

Group 1: I really don't think we want these.

 

Spoiler

Jirachi - Incredible Pokemon all around, great typing, great moves... then you remember it has 60% STAB flinch move with 100 base speed. I agree we don't want this.

Shaymin-Sky - Less all-around good than Jirachi but also extremely unhealthy for enjoyable Doubles meta. Outspeeds practically everything and turns the game into a dice roll. Not necessarily unbeatable but makes the game so incredibly not fun.

Manaphy - Base 100s all around with Tail Glow as a move is no joke. Getting that kind of boost in 1 turn is kind of sick. Just way too much value in 1 Pokemon, I don't think it's a good addition to the game.

Genesect - That moveset, those stats with Download is just disgusting. Sure, it is yeeted by one of the most common spread moves (Heat Wave) but just too much power to be a good inclusion to the game in my opinion.

Darkrai - The biggest issue is the implementation of Dark Void. What is the interaction between Sleep Clause and dual-target Sleep move?

 

Group 2: Not necessarily broken but incredibly centralizing, to the point of being potentially obnoxious to playing experience

 

Spoiler

Landorus-I: Even without Sheer Force, Sand Force Landorus-I with these power levels is quite damn scary.

Landorus-T: Sure, it is destroyed by Ice Beam but the centralization effect on the metagame isn't fun. The fact this thing has been the face of VGC formats with much higher power levels tells how useful it is.

Deoxys-Attack: Funnily enough, not necessarily "broken" but just straight up stupid. Sure, it is very vulnerable to spread moves and priority but it just makes the whole playing experience very stupid and makes already short gameplay even shorter.

Keldeo: Just too much value in 1 Pokemon and has effectively coverage over the whole metagame with good speed.

Latios/Latias: There's just way too many ways you can lose to these, from instant Draco nukes to CM set up sweeps. Hydreigon is already good and these things are just a step up from that.

 

Group 3: Probably not broken but will become the indisputable champion in their own role

 

Spoiler

Heatran: Just insanely good Pokemon. Being weak to EQ sucks but has so many upsides and fills so many holes in a team.

Tornadus-I: Becomes so clearly the best Prankster Tailwind user that there is just no competition whatsoever.

Thundurus-I: Just an obnoxious disrupter with Prankster and TWave spam. General stats all around to give good utility. Zapdos but way more annoying. (Side note: Swagger not necessarily that strong when confusion only 33%)

Thundurus-T: Zapdos but hits harder, no Tailwind though. Also better ability.

Cresselia: The bulky Trick Room setter of the game, if it existed. You could slap it in every team. Becomes perhaps a bit too splashable.

 

 

Group 4: Strong but generally just fine for the game

 

Spoiler

Mew: Base 100s with the widest movepool in the game after Smeargle is no joke, pure-Psychic type keeps it becoming anything broken though.

Deoxys: Has the same problems as Deoxys-A but hits slightly less hard.

Tornadus-T: Generally cool mon, offensive but with Regenerator. Doesn't hit amazingly hard and has to rely on Hurricanes to do anything insanely high damage.

Meloetta: Generally just alright.

Victini: V-Create is damn scary but beyond that it has slightly awkward typing and base 100s all around isn't enough to be amazing on its own alone.

 

 

Group 5: Probably not even top tier in current Dubs

 

Spoiler

Deoxys-S: Being that fast doesn't help when you hit that little damage.

Deoxys-D: Doesn't pressurize anything

Celebi: I don't think Celebi is as awful as some people make it sound but it doesn't hit that hard and has very awkward defensive typing

Regigigas: I don't think it's good. Everyone was afraid of Slaking + Weezing and it's nowhere to be seen. Regigigas is a step up from it, sure, but it's not that much better that if Slaking never has achieved much then I don't think Regigigas can either.

Phione: Just bad.

 

Edited March 20 by OrangeManiac

[Rakhmaninov]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

I agree that the game needs more legendary implementation as soon as possible. As you demonstrated, we still are lacking a large variety of legendaries into the game. Starting from somewhere would be very welcome.

 

I agree that The Lake Trio and the Regi trio would be the safest additions to the game. I would probably go as far as saying that their effect on MMO Doubles metagame is not going to be all that notable. From the Lake Trio, Azelf is probably the only one having some kind of theoretical niche with reasonable good Speed and Special attack and decent coverage. The Regi Trio doesn't seem all that impactful to me. Being slow and weak to Fighting kinda defaults you into a mid-tier Trick Room sweeper, at best. Justice Trio also sounds interesting, Terrakion would probably cause at least some impact on the metagame (if for nothing else, than the Beat Up Justified cheese).

 

I think I'm slightly more cautious with other legendaries compared to you, I'll go over them one by one.

 

Group 1: I really don't think we want these.

 

  Hide contents

Jirachi - Incredible Pokemon all around, great typing, great moves... then you remember it has 60% STAB flinch move with 100 base speed. I agree we don't want this.

Shaymin-Sky - Less all-around good than Jirachi but also extremely unhealthy for enjoyable Doubles meta. Outspeeds practically everything and turns the game into a dice roll. Not necessarily unbeatable but makes the game so incredibly not fun.

Manaphy - Base 100s all around with Tail Glow as a move is no joke. Getting that kind of boost in 1 turn is kind of sick. Just way too much value in 1 Pokemon, I don't think it's a good addition to the game.

Genesect - That moveset, those stats with Download is just disgusting. Sure, it is yeeted by one of the most common spread moves (Heat Wave) but just too much power to be a good inclusion to the game in my opinion.

Darkrai - The biggest issue is the implementation of Dark Void. What is the interaction between Sleep Clause and dual-target Sleep move?

 

Group 2: Not necessarily broken but incredibly centralizing, to the point of being potentially obnoxious to playing experience

 

  Hide contents

Landorus-I: Even without Sheer Force, Sand Force Landorus-I with these power levels is quite damn scary.

Landorus-T: Sure, it is destroyed by Ice Beam but the centralization effect on the metagame isn't fun. The fact this thing has been the face of VGC formats with much higher power levels tells how useful it is.

Deoxys-Attack: Funnily enough, not necessarily "broken" but just straight up stupid. Sure, it is very vulnerable to spread moves and priority but it just makes the whole playing experience very stupid and makes already short gameplay even shorter.

Keldeo: Just too much value in 1 Pokemon and has effectively coverage over the whole metagame with good speed.

Latios/Latias: There's just way too many ways you can lose to these, from instant Draco nukes to CM set up sweeps. Hydreigon is already good and these things are just a step up from that.

 

Group 3: Probably not broken but will become the indisputable champion in their own role

 

  Hide contents

Heatran: Just insanely good Pokemon. Being weak to EQ sucks but has so many upsides and fills so many holes in a team.

Tornadus-I: Becomes so clearly the best Prankster Tailwind user that there is just no competition whatsoever.

Thundurus-I: Just an obnoxious disrupter with Prankster and TWave spam. General stats all around to give good utility. Zapdos but way more annoying. (Side note: Swagger not necessarily that strong when confusion only 33%)

Thundurus-T: Zapdos but hits harder, no Tailwind though. Also better ability.

Cresselia: The bulky Trick Room setter of the game, if it existed. You could slap it in every team. Becomes perhaps a bit too splashable.

 

 

Group 4: Strong but generally just fine for the game

 

  Hide contents

Mew: Base 100s with the widest movepool in the game after Smeargle is no joke, pure-Psychic type keeps it becoming anything broken though.

Deoxys: Has the same problems as Deoxys-A but hits slightly less hard.

Tornadus-T: Generally cool mon, offensive but with Regenerator. Doesn't hit amazingly hard and has to rely on Hurricanes to do anything insanely high damage.

Meloetta: Generally just alright.

Victini: V-Create is damn scary but beyond that it has slightly awkward typing and base 100s all around isn't enough to be amazing on its own alone.

 

 

Group 5: Probably not even top tier in current Dubs

 

  Hide contents

Deoxys-S: Being that fast doesn't help when you hit that little damage.

Deoxys-D: Doesn't pressurize anything

Celebi: I don't think Celebi is as awful as some people make it sound but it doesn't hit that hard and has very awkward defensive typing

Regigigas: I don't think it's good. Everyone was afraid of Slaking + Weezing and it's nowhere to be seen. Regigigas is a step up from it, sure, but it's not that much better that if Slaking never has achieved much then I don't think Regigigas can either.

Phione: Just bad.

 

I'll adjust the rankings accordingly! Thanks for the in depth analysis 

[OrangeManiac]

2 minutes ago, Rakhmaninov said:

I'll adjust the rankings accordingly! Thanks for the in depth analysis 

Those are just my ratings, maybe better to see what others think 🙂

[Rakhmaninov]

1 minute ago, OrangeManiac said:

Those are just my ratings, maybe better to see what others think 🙂

Imagine mew with fake out support+transform so there's two set up sweepers on the field... Ouch

[VadimEmpoleon]

I mostly agree with Orange's ratings.

 

I agree that the Regi Trio and the Lake Trio are the best choices to be introduced, I think Meloetta would also be a good addition to start with.

 

From the legendaries that are missing I guess Kyurem would be fine to add in its base form.

 

Great post.

 

Edit: I believe the Therian Formes of Tornadus, Thundurus and Landorus would require a B2W2 rom to be added.

Edited March 20 by VadimEmpoleon

[Goku]

9 hours ago, VadimEmpoleon said:

I mostly agree with Orange's ratings.

 

I agree that the Regi Trio and the Lake Trio are the best choices to be introduced, I think Meloetta would also be a good addition to start with.

 

From the legendaries that are missing I guess Kyurem would be fine to add in its base form.

 

Great post.

 

Edit: I believe the Therian Formes of Tornadus, Thundurus and Landorus would require a B2W2 rom to be added.

The Regi's will most probably be the first that come. I am guessing that'll make the most sense. I just hope they will be obtainable in a way that is far different than the current legendaries. This running in grass is something else. I mean it's not all that bad cuz you can payday but the biggest problem for me is if I want to hunt this legendary and have a pretty good chance to encounter an unwanted shiny. Especially if you're doing 10k+ encounters. Maybe it's not all that bad because some of the locations have Starters and other rare mons but the odds are not that good xDDD

[Xratello]

Whatever man...who cares...Just gimme more xD

[Rakhmaninov]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:11 PM, OrangeManiac said:

I agree that the game needs more legendary implementation as soon as possible. As you demonstrated, we still are lacking a large variety of legendaries into the game. Starting from somewhere would be very welcome.

 

I agree that The Lake Trio and the Regi trio would be the safest additions to the game. I would probably go as far as saying that their effect on MMO Doubles metagame is not going to be all that notable. From the Lake Trio, Azelf is probably the only one having some kind of theoretical niche with reasonable good Speed and Special attack and decent coverage. The Regi Trio doesn't seem all that impactful to me. Being slow and weak to Fighting kinda defaults you into a mid-tier Trick Room sweeper, at best. Justice Trio also sounds interesting, Terrakion would probably cause at least some impact on the metagame (if for nothing else, than the Beat Up Justified cheese).

 

I think I'm slightly more cautious with other legendaries compared to you, I'll go over them one by one.

 

Group 1: I really don't think we want these.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Jirachi - Incredible Pokemon all around, great typing, great moves... then you remember it has 60% STAB flinch move with 100 base speed. I agree we don't want this.

Shaymin-Sky - Less all-around good than Jirachi but also extremely unhealthy for enjoyable Doubles meta. Outspeeds practically everything and turns the game into a dice roll. Not necessarily unbeatable but makes the game so incredibly not fun.

Manaphy - Base 100s all around with Tail Glow as a move is no joke. Getting that kind of boost in 1 turn is kind of sick. Just way too much value in 1 Pokemon, I don't think it's a good addition to the game.

Genesect - That moveset, those stats with Download is just disgusting. Sure, it is yeeted by one of the most common spread moves (Heat Wave) but just too much power to be a good inclusion to the game in my opinion.

Darkrai - The biggest issue is the implementation of Dark Void. What is the interaction between Sleep Clause and dual-target Sleep move?

 

Group 2: Not necessarily broken but incredibly centralizing, to the point of being potentially obnoxious to playing experience

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Landorus-I: Even without Sheer Force, Sand Force Landorus-I with these power levels is quite damn scary.

Landorus-T: Sure, it is destroyed by Ice Beam but the centralization effect on the metagame isn't fun. The fact this thing has been the face of VGC formats with much higher power levels tells how useful it is.

Deoxys-Attack: Funnily enough, not necessarily "broken" but just straight up stupid. Sure, it is very vulnerable to spread moves and priority but it just makes the whole playing experience very stupid and makes already short gameplay even shorter.

Keldeo: Just too much value in 1 Pokemon and has effectively coverage over the whole metagame with good speed.

Latios/Latias: There's just way too many ways you can lose to these, from instant Draco nukes to CM set up sweeps. Hydreigon is already good and these things are just a step up from that.

 

Group 3: Probably not broken but will become the indisputable champion in their own role

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Heatran: Just insanely good Pokemon. Being weak to EQ sucks but has so many upsides and fills so many holes in a team.

Tornadus-I: Becomes so clearly the best Prankster Tailwind user that there is just no competition whatsoever.

Thundurus-I: Just an obnoxious disrupter with Prankster and TWave spam. General stats all around to give good utility. Zapdos but way more annoying. (Side note: Swagger not necessarily that strong when confusion only 33%)

Thundurus-T: Zapdos but hits harder, no Tailwind though. Also better ability.

Cresselia: The bulky Trick Room setter of the game, if it existed. You could slap it in every team. Becomes perhaps a bit too splashable.

 

 

Group 4: Strong but generally just fine for the game

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Mew: Base 100s with the widest movepool in the game after Smeargle is no joke, pure-Psychic type keeps it becoming anything broken though.

Deoxys: Has the same problems as Deoxys-A but hits slightly less hard.

Tornadus-T: Generally cool mon, offensive but with Regenerator. Doesn't hit amazingly hard and has to rely on Hurricanes to do anything insanely high damage.

Meloetta: Generally just alright.

Victini: V-Create is damn scary but beyond that it has slightly awkward typing and base 100s all around isn't enough to be amazing on its own alone.

 

 

Group 5: Probably not even top tier in current Dubs

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Deoxys-S: Being that fast doesn't help when you hit that little damage.

Deoxys-D: Doesn't pressurize anything

Celebi: I don't think Celebi is as awful as some people make it sound but it doesn't hit that hard and has very awkward defensive typing

Regigigas: I don't think it's good. Everyone was afraid of Slaking + Weezing and it's nowhere to be seen. Regigigas is a step up from it, sure, but it's not that much better that if Slaking never has achieved much then I don't think Regigigas can either.

Phione: Just bad.

 

Edited the rankings accordingly

[Rakhmaninov]

1. Is Terrakion a suitable addition to the current metagame? Should it be A Tier not A+ Tier?

2. If Dark Void is banned, where would Darkrai be on the rankings?

3. How well would a team with both Slaking and Regigigas work with reactive gas users?

 

Edited March 22 by Rakhmaninov