Official Tier List Organization (April 24th)

[DoubleJ]

Don't worry cody. Just play UU and I'll show you a real tier.

[Kiliminati]

Don't worry cody. Just play UU and I'll show you a real tier.

I wanna see C:

[Tranzmaster]

Firs why go through all of this trouble just to avoid complex bans. You guys have been doing a pretty good job saying no so far. And second you couldnt find 2 ppl who could fit into the OU sub counsel who wouldnt recommend complex bans?

 

1) What "trouble"? I have already explained twice that the primary reason for this Tier List Organisation change was regarding NU (and UU), what does this have to do with complex bans?

 

The Tier Board just functions as overseers to check whether the requested bans are according to the policy we have been maintaining. I give the flat ban/complex bans as an example but that's not only restricted to that only.

 

 

2) No.

[codylramey]

1) What "trouble"? I have already explained twice that the primary reason for this Tier List Organisation change was regarding NU (and UU), what does this have to do with complex bans?

 

The Tier Board just functions as overseers to check whether the requested bans are according to the policy we have been maintaining. I give the flat ban/complex bans as an example but that's not only restricted to that only.

How many other things are there? I mean i know theres more but not so much you need an entire counsel for it. Why is a better purpose of the tier counsel not to give the real counsel insight on the meta that they dont have due to lack of playing in a certain meta (for the most part.) If this was the sub counsels job then it would make much more sense to give UU and NU different treatment than OU (not a lot more but still more).

 

 and this was according to what the community was asking.

 

  The community wasnt asking for a counsel to oversee bannings and make sure they are according to policy. The tier counsel did a good job of that themselves. What they wanted is ppl who knew more about and actually cared about NU and some extent UU.

 

Tldr: Your explanation for the subcounsels jobs is... well... lets just say lacking.

 

 

- Merging OU Council and Tier Board makes sense since the flat ban/complex ban issue will pretty much only be relevant for the OU tier most of the time.

As for this lil tidbit. This is just ridiculous. First of all the fact that you mentioned complex bans 2-3 times and made a decision like this based around complex bans makes my confusion over how much you were worried about complex bans understandable. You didnt choose new ppl for the OU board because of complex bans? U realize how ridiculous that is right? You have a huge pool of great OU players you can choose from that would bring a large array of experience and expertise to the counsel. Im sure you can find 2 that agree with you guys on complex bans.

[Tranzmaster]

How many other things are there? I mean i know theres more but not so much you need an entire counsel for it. Why is a better purpose of the tier counsel not to give the real counsel insight on the meta that they dont have due to lack of playing in a certain meta (for the most part.) If this was the sub counsels job then it would make much more sense to give UU and NU different treatment than OU (not a lot more but still more).

 

You're overestimating the function of the Tier Board. If there isn't going to be an instance preventing the 3 councils from working 100% independent from each other, things are bound to go wrong. The current organisation is made so every council gets the same treatment. The fact that the OU council consists of the same people as the Tier Board is in that perspective irrelevant.

 

What other things are there?

 

Another example:

 

- In the case where a certain council would keep banning/keep moving down --> Giving insight in a new cut off point / advising council to do so.

 

The community wasnt asking for a counsel to oversee bannings and make sure they are according to policy. The tier counsel did a good job of that themselves. What they wanted is ppl who knew more about and actually cared about NU and some extent UU.

 

Tldr: Your explanation for the subcounsels jobs is... well... lets just say lacking.

 

Isn't that what happened?

 

As for this lil tidbit. This is just ridiculous. First of all the fact that you mentioned complex bans 2-3 times and made a decision like this based around complex bans makes my confusion over how much you were worried about complex bans understandable. You didnt choose new ppl for the OU board because of complex bans? U realize how ridiculous that is right? You have a huge pool of great OU players you can choose from, and that would bring a large array of experience and expertise to the counsel. Im sure you can find 2 that agree with you guys on complex bans.

 

- Don't fix what's not broken

 

- There were considerations towards certain individuals, but I found them lacking either experience/argumentation/behaviour/policy wise.

 

So actually, yes, I couldn't find 2 players.

 

I have yet to hear what's wrong with the current OU council though in terms of decision making. 

[OrangeManiac]

The community wasnt asking for a counsel to oversee bannings and make sure they are according to policy. The tier counsel did a good job of that themselves. What they wanted is ppl who knew more about and actually cared about NU and some extent UU.

 

In my view, in terms of managing tierlists efficiently and having legitimate discussion there is no other way than having just one type of guideline of which all of the sub councils follow. That's why I agree on that there must be an upper council to actually agree the reasoning for what the sub councils are doing. It can't come to a situation where a certain argument or procedure is accepted in one tier but not in the other one.

The only thing that differs from this is applying complex bans in OU, which in my opinion could very rarely be acceptable - because otherwise the Pokemon would be banished altogether. What comes to lower tiers using complex bans would never be an option in my opinion, since it would make a total mess around it and managing tierlists would be a nightmare not to mention to people actually trying to remember all of that stuff.

[codylramey]

 

 

You're overestimating the function of the Tier Board. If there isn't going to be an instance preventing the 3 councils from working 100% independent from each other, things are bound to go wrong. The current organisation is made so every council gets the same treatment. The fact that the OU council consists of the same people as the Tier Board is in that perspective irrelevant.

 

What other things are there?

 

Another example:

 

- In the case where a certain council would keep banning/keep moving down --> Giving insight in a new cut off point / advising council to do so.

Hold up i think im confusing the tier board with the sub counsels. Are you saying the tier board, being Thinknice, Senile, Robo, and Amanue, only job is to over see tiering decisions made by the sub counsils, being Noadhunter, Orange, JJ, and who ever else's decisions and make sure they abide by the policy. Bc that would make a whole hell of a lot more since than what i was thinking you were doing, which was flip flopping the roles.

 

 

Isn't that what happened?

For every tier but OU, which is why im making this fuss.

 

 

- Don't fix what's not broken

Im sorry but the old counsel wasnt doing a good job with OU, hence all of the backlash. Granted they did create a meta where i thrived in much more, still didnt do a good job. They made 4 decisions for OU since the update. Of the 4 their best decision was their last decision which was to repeal the other 3 decisions they made. Now i understand testing needs to be done but still, doesnt it say something about the tier counsel that they test a meta w/o pokemon b4 they test it with, they even go as far as banning mence immediately after CB comes out. And now the same ppl are on the OU subcounsel.

 

 

- There were considerations towards certain individuals, but I found them lacking either experience/argumentation/behaviour(lol)/policy wise.

 

So actually, yes, I couldn't find 2 players.

 

I have yet to hear what's wrong with the current OU council though in terms of decision making. 

 

And the current OU counsel does fit those qualifications? Let me ask you some things, and these are serious questions, how much OU does Robo play? Does thinknice even OU anymore? And how many times has senile been called out for his behavior problems.

[YagamiNoir]

Hold up i think im confusing the tier board with the sub counsels. Are you saying the tier board, being Thinknice, Senile, Robo, and Amanue, only job is to over see tiering decisions made by the sub counsils, being Noadhunter, Orange, JJ, and who ever else's decisions and make sure they abide by the policy. Bc that would make a whole hell of a lot more since than what i was thinking you were doing, which was flip flopping the roles.



For every tier but OU, which is why im making this fuss.



Im sorry but the old counsel wasnt doing a good job with OU, hence all of the backlash. Granted they did create a meta where i thrived in much more, still didnt do a good job. They made 4 decisions for OU since the update. Of the 4 their best decision was their last decision which was to repeal the other 3 decisions they made. Now i understand testing needs to be done but still, doesnt it say something about the tier counsel that they test a meta w/o pokemon b4 they test it with, they even go as far as banning mence immediately after CB comes out. And now the same ppl are on the OU subcounsel.



And the current OU counsel does fit those qualifications? Let me ask you some things, and these are serious questions, how much OU does Robo play? Does thinknice even OU anymore? And how many times has senile been called out for his behavior problems.

He's probably stating that in terms of decision making in their respective tiering, the OU Group with Thinkie/Amanu and everything, the UU Group with JJ and Forf and the NU Group with Orange and Jim, they essentially work individually and they won't mess with each other's decision making, etc. At the same time, though, the OU Group also is the main Tier Board essentially, as to ensure that the reasoning behind every tier change abides to their policy. So long as it fits that policy, the Tier Board probably won't be messing with UU and NU, they'll just nitpick the wrong policies, aka irrelevant ban reasons, complex bans, etc. For example Senile questioned the policy when the NU board made their decisions. That is the extent of what the OU Board/Tier Board does when it comes to other tiers, so it's not messing with it entirely apart from the OU tier itself.

The irony when you say bad behaviour, but personally there's also Tranz's mention about appropriate interaction in between the elected members. As far as I'm concerned, this is relatively hard to find apart from the current established council. Your own mention of "rebels" evidences this enough, since if they elect a new OU Tier from fresh I'm decently sure things with turn more conflicted between this new board and the current Tier Board.

EDIT: Plus, well, what the meta displays now isn't wrong to what the council has forseen. Maybe everyone just wants practical evidence to be satisfied.

[ThinkNice]

Like you can see in the state of the current OU, it made a whole.lot of sense to just quickban Salamence. 

[DoubleJ]

Like you can see in the state of the current OU, it made a whole.lot of sense to just quickban Salamence. 

 

StinkNice quit talking OU and come online

[codylramey]

Like you can see in the state of the current OU, it made a whole.lot of sense to just quickban Salamence. 

Yea and the banning of curselax was justifiable too. Same with heracross and dnite. But you saw what the meta looked like after that. It wasnt good either, you guys even said it was shit which is why you brought those pokes back down. So my question to you guys is, if/when you guy reban all of these pokes what then? How are you going to fix the meta after that? Ban blissey and vaporeon? Then you can say bye to our spcl sweepers jolt, zam, and starmie, maybe even areodayctle (thats a stretch). When raindance is back there goes kindgra and ludicolo. You guys are going to have to make a choice. Until we get all of our pokes, do we want a meta like the one i just described or do we want a meta like the one we have right now. And idt that should be decided by people who arent constantly involved in the meta. If you guys are involved more in OU than i am giving you credit for then i do apologize, but i dont see you guys in official, unofficials, battling OU in the psl (amanue does), or even in viridian much.

[Gunthug]

Yea and the banning of curselax was justifiable too. Same with heracross and dnite. But you saw what the meta looked like after that. It wasnt good either, you guys even said it was shit which is why you brought those pokes back down. So my question to you guys is, if/when you guy reban all of these pokes what then? How are you going to fix the meta after that? Ban blissey and vaporeon? Then you can say bye to our spcl sweepers jolt, zam, and starmie, maybe even areodayctle (thats a stretch). When raindance is back there goes kindgra and ludicolo. You guys are going to have to make a choice. Until we get all of our pokes, do we want a meta like the one i just described or do we want a meta like the one we have right now. And idt that should be decided by people who arent constantly involved in the meta. If you guys are involved more in OU than i am giving you credit for then i do apologize, but i dont see you guys in official, unofficials, battling OU in the psl (amanue does), or even in viridian much.

Ok Cody. You've made your point. You aren't happy with the OU council as it is, and you wanted to get on the council. Now stop your whining and lets see what the council has in store for the future.

[codylramey]

Ok Cody. You've made your point. You aren't happy with the OU council as it is, and you wanted to get on the council. Now stop your whining and lets see what the council has in store for the future.

Are you kidding me? First i dont want to be on the counsil, i dont like the way they do things idk if that was obvious or not. Also what do they have in store for the future? What could they possibly have in store for the future, weve seen the outcome of all possibilities for the meta under them. None of its good. The only thing that can possibly balance the meta when tiering like this is more pokes. 

[Gunthug]

Are you kidding me? First i dont want to be on the counsil, i dont like the way they do things idk if that was obvious or not. Also what do they have in store for the future? What could they possibly have in store for the future, weve seen the outcome of all possibilities for the meta under them. None of its good. The only thing that can possibly balance the meta when tiering like this is more pokes. 

 

Now stop your whining and lets see what the council has in store for the future.

[YagamiNoir]

Are you kidding me? First i dont want to be on the counsil, i dont like the way they do things idk if that was obvious or not. Also what do they have in store for the future? What could they possibly have in store for the future, weve seen the outcome of all possibilities for the meta under them. None of its good. The only thing that can possibly balance the meta when tiering like this is more pokes.

Then wait until Hoenn comes out in which OU will probably be much better by then. This is more of a personal dissatisfaction and insult rather than a legitimate complaint.

[Senile]

And idt that should be decided by people who arent constantly involved in the meta. If you guys are involved more in OU than i am giving you credit for then i do apologize, but i dont see you guys in official, unofficials, battling OU in the psl (amanue does), or even in viridian much.

As the OU official semifinalist 2 hour Frags PP Stall champion knight king, pls go.

Viridian is trash and so is everyone in it.

 

As for "what to do", if things end up getting banned once again, then we can simply ban Blissey and Chansey. ez pz. "B-b-b-but muh special sweepers!"; Unless, you know, they don't end up being banworthy whatsoever. Which, I believe there's a pretty good chance they won't be.

 

Or none of that could happen. Who knows. How about fucking waiting instead of preemptively complaining about shit?

[fredrichnietze]

Viridian is trash and so is everyone in it.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

there are nicer ways to say this without offending people. see gif.

[codylramey]

As the OU official semifinalist 2 hour Frags PP Stall champion knight king, pls go.

Viridian is trash and so is everyone in it.

 

As for "what to do", if things end up getting banned once again, then we can simply ban Blissey and Chansey. ez pz. "B-b-b-but muh special sweepers!"; Unless, you know, they don't end up being banworthy whatsoever. Which, I believe there's a pretty good chance they won't be.

 

Or none of that could happen. Who knows. How about fucking waiting instead of preemptively complaining about shit?

Im glad you actually answer my question instead of avoid it like 2 other ppl commenting. Senile im telling you its not gonna work. W/O bliss the spcl attackers are too strong, you will have to ban them. Calm mind espy and slowbro, that shit is strong af in a meta with bliss. Starmie might stay bc umbreon can wall it and so can ludi, but jolt is too fast and too strong. Rain sweepers are rip w/o bliss(especially if you get rid of vaporeon too) which means there goes ludicolo one of our spcl wall options 

 

But w/e we'll see. I said bliss was going to be the next lax. She doesnt see the usage lax does but she was a problem in post 14th meta, tranz even said that in his announcement for the moving of these pokes again. And im telling you now, w/o her there will be a whole lot more pokes going with her. More than you should be comfortable with banning. And thats gonna break more pokemon. Just like you guys say allowing one complex ban will lead to another, same can be said about flat bans. But yes lets w8 n see. I just hope hoenn comes out b4 you have to admit you were wrong.

[Senile]

Im glad you actually answer my question instead of avoid it like 2 other ppl commenting. Senile im telling you its not gonna work. W/O bliss the spcl attackers are too strong, you will have to ban them. Calm mind espy and slowbro, that shit is strong af in a meta with bliss. Starmie might stay bc umbreon can wall it and so can ludi, but jolt is too fast and too strong. Rain sweepers are rip w/o bliss(especially if you get rid of vaporeon too) which means there goes ludicolo one of our spcl wall options .

Rain won't come back until Hoenn, let's not pretend the rain sweeper argument is even close to valid.

[Gunthug]

Im glad you actually answer my question instead of avoid it like 2 other ppl commenting. Senile im telling you its not gonna work. W/O bliss the spcl attackers are too strong, you will have to ban them. Calm mind espy and slowbro, that shit is strong af in a meta with bliss. Starmie might stay bc umbreon can wall it and so can ludi, but jolt is too fast and too strong. Rain sweepers are rip w/o bliss(especially if you get rid of vaporeon too) which means there goes ludicolo one of our spcl wall options 

 

But w/e we'll see. I said bliss was going to be the next lax. She doesnt see the usage lax does but she was a problem in post 14th meta, tranz even said that in his announcement for the moving of these pokes again. And im telling you now, w/o her there will be a whole lot more pokes going with her. More than you should be comfortable with banning. And thats gonna break more pokemon. Just like you guys say allowing one complex ban will lead to another, same can be said about flat bans. But yes lets w8 n see. I just hope hoenn comes out b4 you have to admit you were wrong.

I went through your post, and wherever I saw speculation, I highlighted it in red

[codylramey]

I went through your post, and wherever I saw speculation, I highlighted it in red

Yea so? Half of tiering, especially on here, is speculation. See mence instaban.

[codylramey]

Rain won't come back until Hoenn, let's not pretend the rain sweeper argument is even close to valid.

Okay depending on technicalities to disprove an argument. Cool.

 

I went through your post, and wherever I saw speculation, I highlighted it in red

Yea so? Half of tiering, especially on here, is speculation. See mence instaban. And, just like the mence specualtion, its not like mine is off base. Theres a reason ppl used blissey all the time b4 lax came back, and it wasnt to wall the physically offensive pokes.

[Senile]

Okay depending on technicalities to disprove an argument. Cool.

What do you mean "technicalities"? Rain sweepers won't be relevant until after Hoenn is out, at which point any of the old bans will be undone anyway. So, using them being a problem without Blissey as an argument is factually wrong, especially since you claimed this would remove one of the potential special walls (Ludicolo), so this isn't a "technicality", it's a pretty large and obvious hole in your argument.

 

Beyond that, as to stating the other special sweepers are too good, maybe they will be, maybe they won't be. Maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't. w8 and ocean fgt.

[codylramey]

What do you mean "technicalities"? Rain sweepers won't be relevant until after Hoenn is out, at which point any of the old bans will be undone anyway. So, using them being a problem without Blissey as an argument is factually wrong, especially since you claimed this would remove one of the potential special walls (Ludicolo), so this isn't a "technicality", it's a pretty large and obvious hole in your argument.

 

Beyond that, as to stating the other special sweepers are too good, maybe they will be, maybe they won't be. Maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't. w8 and ocean uguu.

Its a technicality bc if the devs actually fixed raindance then my argument would still hold true and you would be getting rid of ludicolo, one of out spcl walls. Ur right its not an argument now, but that is still ignoring the bigger picture and that is that ur tiering method doesnt work in this meta.  

[Senile]

Its a technicality bc if the devs actually fixed raindance then my argument would still hold true and you would be getting rid of ludicolo, one of out spcl walls. Ur right its not an argument now, but that is still ignoring the bigger picture and that is that ur tiering method doesnt work in this meta.  

They did fix rain dance on the testing server, but it's not being released until the Hoenn update. It's not a technicality, it's literally just the facts.