[OU Discussion] Slowbro [Remains OU]

[Gunthug]

Even to try toxic slowbro.. if somebody has a Heal bell or aromatherapy poke + slowbro on the same team you're semi screwed.

In this case, though, you're ar least forcing it out so it can't set up on you.

another thing to consider is that to wall the physical behemoths effectively, slowbro really needs to be careful to stay at or near full health. Otherwise, a well predicted CB tpunch can come dangerously close to taking it down. A full set of spikes become a problem here too, though rapid spin support is pretty common.

Playing devils advocate a little bit, but even though I'm leaning ban I'm still not that sure about it Edited February 11, 2015 by Gunthug

[flavajabari]

i think we're all forgetting the 1 true slowbro counter.

immune psychic, laughs at surf & icebeam.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-170 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

on a more serious note, i would like to give slowbro some more time in an OU meta without dragonite, if only a few tournaments, just to see how it goes.

and i dont think that bringing a counter like subseed ludi, automaticly means slowro is TOO centralizing, it's just 1 of those pokes you gotta think about when building a team, just like when you bring hp ice/electric/grass or other stuff to deal with a specific pokemon.

allthough i realize slowbro is top tier and possibly deserves a ban, i would like to give it some more time.

[Munya]

I like my slowking better anyways

[Shaniqualela]

I like my slowking better anyways

and this is why you suck m8

 

 

i think we're all forgetting the 1 true slowbro counter.

immune psychic, laughs at surf & icebeam.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-170 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

on a more serious note, i would like to give slowbro some more time in an OU meta without dragonite, if only a few tournaments, just to see how it goes.

and i dont think that bringing a counter like subseed ludi, automaticly means slowro is TOO centralizing, it's just 1 of those pokes you gotta think about when building a team, just like when you bring hp ice/electric/grass or other stuff to deal with a specific pokemon.

allthough i realize slowbro is top tier and possibly deserves a ban, i would like to give it some more time.

taunt/dragon dance is probably better, it can stop it from going for CM's, slack off's, and a twaves.

if it gets a dragon dance up whatever comes in is going to be hurt bad

[flavajabari]

and this is why you suck m8

 

 

taunt/dragon dance is probably better, it can stop it from going for CM's, slack off's, and a twaves.

if it gets a dragon dance up whatever comes in is going to be hurt bad

 

you know whats up.

[RyoOhsora]

so when you ban slowbro... you also need to bann all cb user and ddancer as well xP
nah srsly slowbro ist just an answer to the high offensive meta and it can't tank everything ... cb thunderpunch hurts alot and is common also +1 dnite and specially +1 gyara with crunch hurts alot as example and there are way more ways to deal with slowbro... ( and there are also spikes which are also quite common )

sure you can use vapo but vapo > slowbro

and yeah slowbro is a top tier pokemon but only an answer to the high offensive meta we have. but not as op as it seems.. you can easily deal with slowbro.

and saying the meta is centralizing around slowbro is saying like the meta is centralizing around cb user ...

I'm looking forward to see more tests with and without slowbro in the current meta ( with and without all the cb user and ddancer around these days)

Edited February 11, 2015 by RyoOhsora

[Draekyn]

vapo > slowbro

You probably meant <

[RyoOhsora]

You probably meant <

vapo has acces to heal bell / wish to support the team  etc...  thats something slowbro can't do

sure slowbro with cm psychic / hp electric can beat vapo and vapo can't scratch slowbro ( surf icebeam doesn't do much and nearly every slowbro is running cm as well)

 

[Sacky]

i think 

in a hard hit meta like pokemmo have now..we need some hard walls like slowbro to make some balance...slowbro is the best option (milotic u.u) 

[Draekyn]

vapo has acces to heal bell / wish to support the team  etc...  thats something slowbro can't do

sure slowbro with cm psychic / hp electric can beat vapo and vapo can't scratch slowbro ( surf icebeam doesn't do much and nearly every slowbro is running cm as well)

 

The access to an instant recovery move and a better base def is what makes Slowbro more interesting than Vap as a physical wall. I'm not talking about a Vap vs Slowbro duel

[flavajabari]

i mean sure it walls half the phys meta, but isn't that kinda the whole point.

blissey can take legit 40 thunderbolts to the face, snorlax can do the same while cursing up, etc.

why? because they are solid sp def walls.

 

i know its not the best comparison, but when a sp def wall like blissey walls legit the whole special meta, its no biggie, but when slowbro does the same on the physical side, its a huuuugeeee problem.

maybe our meta is too physical based? well tbh it is, and taking away the best def wall will only make this worse.

[RyoOhsora]

The access to an instant recovery move and a better base def is what makes Slowbro more interesting than Vap as a physical wall. I'm not talking about a Vap vs Slowbro duel

yeah slowbro has a better def and instand heal and vapo needs acid armor to boost its def but slowbro can't tank all physical hits specially thunder punch is a real pain .

and with slowbro gone we have a huge lack in phys walls and all the cb user and dd dancer have an easier time sweeping throu... so banning a wall but allowing hard hitters to be there is kinda bad for the meta.

[Excelimpulse]

i mean sure it walls half the phys meta, but isn't that kinda the whole point.
blissey can take legit 40 thunderbolts to the face, snorlax can do the same while cursing up, etc.
why? because they are solid sp def walls.

i know its not the best comparison, but when a sp def wall like blissey walls legit the whole special meta, its no biggie, but when slowbro does the same on the physical side, its a huuuugeeee problem.
maybe our meta is too physical based? well tbh it is, and taking away the best def wall will only make this worse.

It's to physical based because of the special walls. Everyone and their mother carries at least one of them. And like you said that only leaves to hit hard with physical.

The only reason skarmory isn't listed instead of slowbro is because of magneton which makes me chuckle because I havnt seen to many floating around.

[RyoOhsora]

It's to physical based because of the special walls. Everyone and their mother carries at least one of them. And like you said that only leaves to hit hard with physical.

The only reason skarmory isn't listed instead of slowbro is because of magneton which makes me chuckle because I havnt seen to many floating around.

not only magneton... cb fire/thunderpunch deals alot to skar and its not as usefull as it was before the split.

and running phsysical based pokemon is only kinda a reaction to the sp.walls... physical based pokemon got a huge boost with the split and cb aviable to them

[Sacky]

 to mean that in the long run everyone's going to run Bliss/Bro. Is that something you really want?

i dont think bliss is longer a problem with the split..so many pokes have now really viable options to hurt that bitch

bro is the best option untill we have things like roost, toxic spikes, stealth rock and rocky helmet...but really that hit beast like nite (this need to be banned), metagross, blaziken, swords dance sceptile, flygon, etc...will be a really big problem..skarmory without roost isnt a good option (and magneton..lel) then we have forretress?..good luck walling a CB medicham boy

without milotic what we can do?..the faster and strong will win every single duel?..that's isnt funny also

[Excelimpulse]

not only magneton... cb fire/thunderpunch deals alot to skar and its not as usefull as it was before the split.

and running phsysical based pokemon is only kinda a reaction to the sp.walls... physical based pokemon got a huge boost with the split and cb aviable to them

Agreed but that's on to the argument of perfect prediction. Cb pokes are a risk/reward. I was going to snap my dnights kneck after what xoxo did to it. That lapras made me not even run dnight anymore. Yes I can run superpower, but then I give up eq, which lets metagross wreck my shit. Dnight cb has 5 move sysbdrom no matter how you look at it.

[RyoOhsora]

Agreed but that's on to the argument of perfect prediction. Cb pokes are a risk/reward. I was going to snap my dnights kneck after what xoxo did to it. That lapras made me not even run dnight anymore. Yes I can run superpower, but then I give up eq, which lets metagross wreck my shit. Dnight cb has 5 move sysbdrom no matter how you look at it.

yeah i agree on that 

so we have 2 options atm? 1. useing another hard hitter to deal with other hard hitters or use slowbro ... banning slowbro means thos hard hitters have an easier way to sweep throu and banning the hard hitters means we are going back to stallmmo. imo we need both the hard hitters and slowbro/ milotic( i know its nyi) and other good tanks/walls to deal with them.

in the end we have a really aggresive and offensive meta which is kinda better then the boring stallmmo we had before
 

Edited February 11, 2015 by RyoOhsora

[Excelimpulse]

yeah i agree on that

so we have 2 option atm? 1. useing another hard hitter to deal with other hard hitters or use slowbro ... banning slowbro means thos hard hitters have an easier way to sweep throu and banning the hard hitters means we are going back to stallmmo. imo we need both the hard hitters and slowbro/ milotic( i know its nyi) and other good tanks/walls to deal with them.

in the end we have a really aggresive and offensive meta which is kinda better then the boring stallmmo we had before

Agreed. So I want to know who is getting swept by slowbro or dnight for this to come up????

I know slowbro is a joke. But spIkes really hinder it. And slack off is only 16 with pp max.

Keep hitting it it will die.

[RyoOhsora]

Agreed. So I want to know who is getting swept by slowbro or dnight for this to come up????

I know slowbro is a joke. But spIkes really hinder it. And slack off is only 16 with pp max.

Keep hitting it it will die.

dnite gyarados kingdra? <-- with dragon dance /   metagross maybe flygon curse/cblax nearly anything that hits hard enough
you can also stall it out with blissey vaporeon etc and if you don't run a cleric in your team toxic will also get rid of bro  and spikes ofc

yeah you're right keep hitting it or boost your atk and you'll get rid of it really fast .
 

Edited February 11, 2015 by RyoOhsora

[Munya]

and this is why you suck m8

 

Hard to suck when you don't pvp.

[mcdoener]

vapo has acces to heal bell / wish to support the team  etc...  thats something slowbro can't do

sure slowbro with cm psychic / hp electric can beat vapo and vapo can't scratch slowbro ( surf icebeam doesn't do much and nearly every slowbro is running cm as well)

 

What would a CM slowbro do against a Haze Vporeon? damage it with about 20%? while vaporeon's HP electric deals about 35% on slowbro
***


-Also I could repeat what is already said with Thunderpunch / Taunt and Leech Seed and that it may is important to use slack off after the switch in and you canot CM then.
-Additional you can easily counter slowbro with your Crunchlax(curse) and if you swtich your curselax in you are in a very good position whether if you opponent switches or not.
-Roar/whirlwind/haze/toxic can force a switch. If you force your opponent to switch all the time when he CMed he will run out of PP.
-Furthermore you can always sweep a slowbro even if its fully CMed => Atomic-Bomb-Lax and Explosion Metagross






*** just to mention: Ice beam should be standart to counter a Dnite (just imagine a Ddancer without Ice-Beam) so you got one move left. What would u use?
Psychic and you canot deal with Metagross
Surf and you canot deal with Vaporeon or Gyarados
 

Edited February 11, 2015 by mcdoener

[OrangeManiac]

What would a CM slowbro do against a Haze Vporeon? damage it with about 20%? while vaporeon's HP electric deals about 35% on slowbro

35% is not enough when Slack off gives 50% HP back. It's basically a PP stalemate.

-Also I could repeat what is already said with Thunderpunch / Taunt and Leech Seed and that it may is important to use slack off after the switch in and you canot CM then.

 

I think Taunt users should have been more discussed in this thread, tbh.

-Additional you can easily counter slowbro with your Crunchlax(curse) and if you swtich your curselax in you are in a very good position whether if you opponent switches or not.

I provided a calculation in this thread to pretty much show that +1 CM Slowbro will be in quite equal situation with an incoming CurseSnorlax so not really a "counter".

-Roar/whirlwind/haze/toxic can force a switch. If you force your opponent to switch all the time when he CMed he will run out of PP.

Well doesn't help much, since Roar and Whirlwind has negative priority. Even if you take "only" +1 Slowbro will most often than not deal quite notable damage before phazed out. The damage output is much bigger thing than the lost PP, and with all PP Maxed it's not like PP is really a problem.

-Furthermore you can always sweep a slowbro even if its fully CMed => Atomic-Bomb-Lax and Explosion Metagross

Explosion is always OP in this generation and if anything, it doesn't tell that something isn't OP when you have to take down your own Poke to get your opponent down.

Edited February 11, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[DoubleJ]

I am not a user of many walls, as my play-style is typically very aggressive, but I can say that Slowbro provides defense that most other walls can't. While the meta would be easier for the teams I build to succeed, is that necessarily healthy?

 

Also, the argument to ban Slowbro because of its defensive synergy with Blissey sounds an awful like my reasoning to ban Vileplume in our old UU because of its defensive characteristics becoming a problem when paired with Steelix and Blastoise. This was ultimately shot down because of a faulty premise relying on team strategy. Hopefully we can look at Slowbro individually rather than tying its impressive defensive capability to support from Blissey.

[Gunthug]

I am not a user of many walls, as my play-style is typically very aggressive, but I can say that Slowbro provides defense that most other walls can't. While the meta would be easier for the teams I build to succeed, is that necessarily healthy?

Also, the argument to ban Slowbro because of its defensive synergy with Blissey sounds an awful like my reasoning to ban Vileplume in our old UU because of its defensive characteristics becoming a problem when paired with Steelix and Blastoise. This was ultimately shot down because of a faulty premise relying on team strategy. Hopefully we can look at Slowbro individually rather than tying its impressive defensive capability to support from Blissey.

Plus the soon to be ubiquitous heracross destroys that core anyways so even if it was a valid argument, It wouldn't be a strong one

[fredrichnietze]

slowbro is one of the best walls in the game atm with a very physical hitter heavy meta, that being said i dont believe it should be banned. toxic which is Literally everywhere completely shits it down. sure if you have support you can switch to your supporter and cleric that status away, but then

-slowbro becomes completely reliant on that cleric not dying 

-slowbro is forced to switch or dies (is that not the definition of a counter?)

-slowbro user has to spend the next 2 turns very predictably switching and clericing away giving the other person free momentum to do whatever.

so the cleric argument is eh~. bliss is really THE option here as vapo is just a weaker version of slowbro (and what are you doing with both of them on the same team?) so machamp/hariyama/ursaring/ect.... switch in and wreck. sure you CAN go back to slowbro but "oh wait hes toxic'd". 

 

as to the "what if these things got banned" argument, come back when it happens.

 

yea slow can be a good status user but so can everything else.

 

and yes you can run rest and slack off, but then what are you going to do offensively? either 2 attacks and no status/cm (in comes bulky spec poke to shit on you all day) or you run cm + one attack (mono attackers suck) or you run status + one attack (mono attackers still suck and what is guts/sub users?)

 

not a problem in our current meta imo. further more what 2 attacks would you consider the best for cm set? as never specified that i saw?