[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[codylramey]

Last usage stats put chansey at ~33%, not 43

Oh thats just what ppl were quoting. Yea a 33%... not impressed. Tbh from what i know of the meta right now i dont see where she is a problem. Shes good at support but thats about it. Shes not obviously the best wall in the game like lax and bliss were because porygon2 is arguably just as good and has the added benefit of being able to counter gyaradose, which is a big deal imo. Gardevior is prolly outclassed bc of typing but can calm mind sweep with can be good. Umbreon can be great for pursuit trapping starmie and jolteon. All of the spcl walls seem, in theory not practice bc like i said im not in the meta much anymore, seem to have a benefit over the other. And since usage is at 33% for chansey it seems the community is using other walls, that or going w/o.

[bl0nde]

On topic, but not adding anything important: I played against magnetons and dugtrios last night every game lol. That is a bit odd, but still there are a lot of trapping attempts going on out there right now. It could be even more of a "trap" meta if umbreon was our other high usage special wall with chansey banned. We know umbreon excels at pursuiting (but can't be pursuited) and reflects status back with synchronize if it lets you status it. I would rather play against chansey because to me it is less annoying. It's hard to speculate far ahead but since umbreon is not really bothered by non-stab signal beamers and it can't be pursuited, I wondering how many people would often resort to using dugtrio to try to take it out. Then you know how people like to send in steels on umbreon repeatedly, that makes a really good niche for magneton trapping - not only for catching steel types but because you can send it in on umbreon constantly. So umbreon isn't there all the time, but then you have the Pory2 that can trap the magneton (lol) or the dugtrio revenge traps magneton. The "trap" metagame.

Edited December 4, 2015 by bl0nde

[zteban]

I think this is the result of the slow competitive addition in the game, they put 4gen mechanics, but not a single item,move, poke from future gen. even 3 gen isnt complete. then the result is this "great" metagame. maybe the only solution is just wait

[DoubleJ]

Truth sitting right above me. We have an incomplete metagame.

[Vaeldras]

Let's stick to chansey thanks

I'm against a ban.

33% usage is indeed a lot, but in itself it's nowhere near a solid reason to ban it.

Chansey is punished hard and trapped by several pokemon, with some of them mainly relying on chansey (or similiar poke) to properly work (rhydon, haunter, linoone, ursaring). We also have sets made specifically to trap chansey on pokes that would normally have no way to touch it, quite a few.

This makes it, in my opinion a pretty risky pokemon to use.

Chansey doesn't define the meta like snorlax or blissey (to a lesser extent) did, has some big drawbacks and a totally acceptable usage.

It also doesn't affect how viable sp sweepers are that much, there is more to that and it can't really punish them like, let's say, snorlax or even umbreon.

It promotes trapping, but one can simply ditch it for some other pokemon without being essentially crippling it's team like it would have happened with snorlax; it's not THAT good.

If "trapping meta is crap" is the only argument we have, then maybe we should consider banning something different.

 

Adressing the meta; We've been playing with no significant changes for quite a while, it's only normal that the meta became a bit stagnant.

Nontheless, i see people doing fine with creative or offensive teams at times and i consider that a good result.

The only way i see to spice things up would be to unban something, but is there anything in ubers that coud benefit our current ou? i don't think so, but maybe we could discuss that in another thread.

All i did up here was pretty much bringing back the same old arguments many brought before me so is there really anything else to say before we come to a conclusion? or are we going to blame chansey for everything we consider bad in this tier for even longer?

Edited December 5, 2015 by Vaeldras

[RysPicz]

Usage is not relevant when we are talking about bans. I don't remember how big usage Lando had before it got banned into ubers in ORAS OU but it was even lower than Chansey's in here.

 

Chansey is punished hard by trapping pokemon? Digler and dugtrio do need substitute + reversal to get rid of it, while it can dispose of each with hyper voice making them completly useless slot in the team. We seen it happening already. Trapinch in OU is just lol. If you are talking about pokemons with Block/ Mean look a'ka perish trappers or block + setup sweepers (Gard and Slowbro are the only ones I can think of right now), then it's only a proof of how dominant Chansey is in the tier, as they are almost solely made under the big fat chick. And like you said we got sets specifically made UNDER ONLY ONE POKE which is Chansey. This is not playing smart or countering the main counter of the team but disposing of cancer that otherwise won't give a shit about you and your team unless you brought all out physical team. Which seems to be very popular right now according to the usage and we all know why.

There is no risk in using Chansey. It won't get pursuit-killed like Gardevoir, does not sport a status weakness like P2, Ludi or earlier mentioned Gard and TWave is always there to prevent any sweeper from setting up and ruining the team. It outclasses every SDef wall in the tier in every aspect aside from offense and became too good not to use.

Obviously it doesn't define meta as much as Metagross does which is on 1 out of 2 teams which imo is unhealthy a little bit but Metagross gets trapped by 2 most common trappers, has poor STAB and once it revealed it's set it's easy to handle. But saying that Chansey doesn't define the meta at all is a herecy. 1/3 teams carry Chansey.

 

When you wrote "Chansey doesn't affect how viable sp attackers are" I almost choked with my lunch. Look at the usage table and tell me how many of these pokes are purely special attacking in the top 30. Only Jolteon and Star while Star is more often used as an offensive spinner rather than a pure special attacker. Espeon sees no usage because of the fat blob at all. Kingdra and Ludi got transformed into Physical set (Kingdra) and sdef set (Ludi) because their rain sets are ineffective with this shit in tier. Any weather special-attacking poke is irrelevant because of that. The whole meta is physically oriented because there is no point in carrying special attackers with her in tier.

 

What I was thinking of is bringing the argument why Chansey became so good in our pokemmo meta.

We have the split from future generations. Yet, we didn't get a single poke from them, nor moves. Ba! We lack Johto starters, Milotic and legendaries. In old gen3 meta, there were pokes capable of setting up on Chansey (Suicune, Celebi, Raikou, Jirachi) and pokes that were defining the meta and are banned in ours due to a) split b) incomplete meta (Mence, TTar, Lax, Bliss, Gengar). Then, we lack a lot of moves from gen4, most notably things like physical Bug move, special fighting move,special ground move etc. And also abilities such as sheer force. Our meta is unwelcoming for special attackers because of the split, lack of most common and powerful pokes from gen3 and lack of moves.

 

Another thing is our fantastic council that seems to just sit and do nothing while tiers are screaming to be fixed.

[Vaeldras]

Usage is not relevant when we are talking about bans. I don't remember how big usage Lando had before it got banned into ubers in ORAS OU but it was even lower than Chansey's in here.

 

Chansey is punished hard by trapping pokemon? Digler and dugtrio do need substitute + reversal to get rid of it, while it can dispose of each with hyper voice making them completly useless slot in the team. We seen it happening already. Trapinch in OU is just lol. If you are talking about pokemons with Block/ Mean look a'ka perish trappers or block + setup sweepers (Gard and Slowbro are the only ones I can think of right now), then it's only a proof of how dominant Chansey is in the tier, as they are almost solely made under the big fat chick. And like you said we got sets specifically made UNDER ONLY ONE POKE which is Chansey. This is not playing smart or countering the main counter of the team but disposing of cancer that otherwise won't give a shit about you and your team unless you brought all out physical team. Which seems to be very popular right now according to the usage and we all know why.

There is no risk in using Chansey. It won't get pursuit-killed like Gardevoir, does not sport a status weakness like P2, Ludi or earlier mentioned Gard and TWave is always there to prevent any sweeper from setting up and ruining the team. It outclasses every SDef wall in the tier in every aspect aside from offense and became too good not to use.

Obviously it doesn't define meta as much as Metagross does which is on 1 out of 2 teams which imo is unhealthy a little bit but Metagross gets trapped by 2 most common trappers, has poor STAB and once it revealed it's set it's easy to handle. But saying that Chansey doesn't define the meta at all is a herecy. 1/3 teams carry Chansey.

 

When you wrote "Chansey doesn't affect how viable sp attackers are" I almost choked with my lunch. Look at the usage table and tell me how many of these pokes are purely special attacking in the top 30. Only Jolteon and Star while Star is more often used as an offensive spinner rather than a pure special attacker. Espeon sees no usage because of the fat blob at all. Kingdra and Ludi got transformed into Physical set (Kingdra) and sdef set (Ludi) because their rain sets are ineffective with this shit in tier. Any weather special-attacking poke is irrelevant because of that. The whole meta is physically oriented because there is no point in carrying special attackers with her in tier.

 

What I was thinking of is bringing the argument why Chansey became so good in our pokemmo meta.

We have the split from future generations. Yet, we didn't get a single poke from them, nor moves. Ba! We lack Johto starters, Milotic and legendaries. In old gen3 meta, there were pokes capable of setting up on Chansey (Suicune, Celebi, Raikou, Jirachi) and pokes that were defining the meta and are banned in ours due to a) split B) incomplete meta (Mence, TTar, Lax, Bliss, Gengar). Then, we lack a lot of moves from gen4, most notably things like physical Bug move, special fighting move,special ground move etc. And also abilities such as sheer force. Our meta is unwelcoming for special attackers because of the split, lack of most common and powerful pokes from gen3 and lack of moves.

 

Another thing is our fantastic council that seems to just sit and do nothing while tiers are screaming to be fixed.

 

Reminder that hyper voice is still a gimmick and makes chansey an even bigger setup bait than it would  already be with a regular set.

The gimmick sets are only there to exploit chansey, not because there are no other ways to deal with it and to be frank they're not even worth being used atm.

And it's no like chansey is the only poke we make specific sets for, it's just that chansey is really easy to exploit.

I know why full ph teams are popular, and the reason is not just chansey; sp sweepers are stopped cold by porygon 2, calm gardevoir, umbreon, and sometimes even by cmind slowbro and have very little to surprise your opponent unlike their ph counterparts (fireblast aero mixed metagross to name one).

 

So why exactly do you want chansey banned? because it's supposed to be the only reason why sp sweepers are unviable and...?

If we have people who actually think banning chansey would make sp sweepers worth using then let's test ban it so we can finally tell.

 

But yeh, as long as the ou council is basically robo and zebra bashing each other  :rolleyes:

[BurntZebra]

Usage is not relevant when we are talking about bans. I don't remember how big usage Lando had before it got banned into ubers in ORAS OU but it was even lower than Chansey's in here.

 

Landorus-i and chansey are not similar at all. A more valid comparison would be landorus to gengar as they were both versatile attackers that constricted team building a lot. Chansey is not versatile and does not constrict team building, at least not any more than other commonly used OU pokemon.

 

Chansey is punished hard by trapping pokemon? Digler and dugtrio do need substitute + reversal to get rid of it, while it can dispose of each with hyper voice making them completly useless slot in the team. We seen it happening already. Trapinch in OU is just lol. If you are talking about pokemons with Block/ Mean look a'ka perish trappers or block + setup sweepers (Gard and Slowbro are the only ones I can think of right now), then it's only a proof of how dominant Chansey is in the tier, as they are almost solely made under the big fat chick. And like you said we got sets specifically made UNDER ONLY ONE POKE which is Chansey. This is not playing smart or countering the main counter of the team but disposing of cancer that otherwise won't give a shit about you and your team unless you brought all out physical team. Which seems to be very popular right now according to the usage and we all know why.

There is no risk in using Chansey. It won't get pursuit-killed like Gardevoir, does not sport a status weakness like P2, Ludi or earlier mentioned Gard and TWave is always there to prevent any sweeper from setting up and ruining the team. It outclasses every SDef wall in the tier in every aspect aside from offense and became too good not to use.

Obviously it doesn't define meta as much as Metagross does which is on 1 out of 2 teams which imo is unhealthy a little bit but Metagross gets trapped by 2 most common trappers, has poor STAB and once it revealed it's set it's easy to handle. But saying that Chansey doesn't define the meta at all is a herecy. 1/3 teams carry Chansey.

 

Dugtrio can still trap chansey, assuming it comes in cleanly, subs twice, and then takes a seismic toss from chansey, which puts it in the 4-10% range of hp where it can ohko chansey with a 150 base power reversal, bypassing the possibility of dying to hyper voice or hail. Block/mean look pokemon have more utility than just trapping chansey and its not like they're used that much anyways so chansey isn't really that centralizing in that department.  There are very few pokemon that are only run for chansey. I can look at the OU usage stats and see that basically none of them are solely for chansey. Some are wallbreakers, but obviously they have other utility outside of being chansey. Ursaring can take down umbreon/porygon2/ludicolo/venusaur etc. Chansey hates taking a choice band pursuit from pokemon like heracross or metagross, and if its running hyper voice, it definitely doesn't have room for protect. Offense is an important part for a wall or else you get shuckle syndrome where you can take hits but you can't do much in return. Umbreon/porygon2 beat calm minders easier than chansey because they have actual attacks to hit special attackers. 

 

 

When you wrote "Chansey doesn't affect how viable sp attackers are" I almost choked with my lunch. Look at the usage table and tell me how many of these pokes are purely special attacking in the top 30. Only Jolteon and Star while Star is more often used as an offensive spinner rather than a pure special attacker. Espeon sees no usage because of the fat blob at all. Kingdra and Ludi got transformed into Physical set (Kingdra) and sdef set (Ludi) because their rain sets are ineffective with this shit in tier. Any weather special-attacking poke is irrelevant because of that. The whole meta is physically oriented because there is no point in carrying special attackers with her in tier.

 

Like I've said many times before on this thread, special attackers won't be any more viable if chansey got banned. Umbreon pursuit traps calm minders and starmie, beating them much easier than chansey can. Ludicolo can actually kill starmie, unlike chansey. Porygon2 takes hits from jolteon better than chansey can and can 2hko jolteon with return, something chansey can't do. It also has extra offense in being able to beat pokemon like flygon or gyarados. Espeon sees little usage because of metagross being on 50% of teams and it being revenge killed by aerodactyl. Chansey is not the sole reason for espeon being not used. Kingdra has been using the physical set since the start of hoenn and ludicolo has been a wall for even longer than that. For the rain dance sets, they're both still stopped by pretty much every other special wall like ludicolo, umbreon, porygon2, and venusaur. 

 

What I was thinking of is bringing the argument why Chansey became so good in our pokemmo meta.

We have the split from future generations. Yet, we didn't get a single poke from them, nor moves. Ba! We lack Johto starters, Milotic and legendaries. In old gen3 meta, there were pokes capable of setting up on Chansey (Suicune, Celebi, Raikou, Jirachi) and pokes that were defining the meta and are banned in ours due to a) split B) incomplete meta (Mence, TTar, Lax, Bliss, Gengar). Then, we lack a lot of moves from gen4, most notably things like physical Bug move, special fighting move,special ground move etc. And also abilities such as sheer force. Our meta is unwelcoming for special attackers because of the split, lack of most common and powerful pokes from gen3 and lack of moves.

 

I wouldn't really say that adding milotic or johto starters would really affect chansey at all. Legendaries would completely change the meta so its not really fair to say that they would stop chansey, as they could in theory bring back snorlax/bliss/gengar/dnite/ttar/salamence potentially, but this is just theory. Special attackers will just always be overshadowed by physical attackers due to the things you mentioned like moves/abilities/items, so its not really a viable solution to ban every special wall to make all out special attackers viable. 

 

Another thing is our fantastic council that seems to just sit and do nothing while tiers are screaming to be fixed.

 

Banning chansey won't do much most likely, although I think banning dugtrio has much more potential as it will make heracross/medicham/blaziken/ursaring/other wall breakers more viable. Still discussing possible tier changes in NU and UU. Tiering takes time

[RysPicz]

Reminder that hyper voice is still a gimmick and makes chansey an even bigger setup bait than it would  already be with a regular set.

The gimmick sets are only there to exploit chansey, not because there are no other ways to deal with it and to be frank they're not even worth being used atm.

And it's no like chansey is the only poke we make specific sets for, it's just that chansey is really easy to exploit.

I know why full ph teams are popular, and the reason is not just chansey; sp sweepers are stopped cold by porygon 2, calm gardevoir, umbreon, and sometimes even by cmind slowbro and have very little to surprise your opponent unlike their ph counterparts (fireblast aero mixed metagross to name one).

 

So why exactly do you want chansey banned? because it's supposed to be the only reason why sp sweepers are unviable and...?

If we have people who actually think banning chansey would make sp sweepers worth using then let's test ban it so we can finally tell.

Hyper voice doesn't seem as a gimmick for me, not as much as hail for sure, as it's a STAB move that goes through sub. Maybe it's power isn't super impressive (135 BP with STAB) but it can still do damage similar to seismic toss in few examples and again, it kills subrev dug which is Chansey's doom otherwise.

Chansey is not really easy to exploit due to it's wide movepool. Wish pass is cool, aroma is cool, twave is cool so is tox, counter is like doom for physical attackers unable to oneshot it.

P2 and Gardevoir don't stop special sweepers cold: Starmie and rain/ sun teams would become much more viable if these 2 would be our available sdef walls. Chansey stops those pokes cold.

I would get rid of chansey because it simply stops special offensive in the tier. I don't know how to voice it, I'm not into tiering. But Lino got banned and Zard got banned because they made a certain playstyle (stall) totally unviable. Same goes here with Chansey.

I'm up for at least a test ban to see how the meta will look like.

 

But yeh, as long as the ou council is basically robo and zebra bashing each other  :rolleyes:

And zeb being stubborn af and posting weird arguments, like...

 

Landorus-i and chansey are not similar at all. A more valid comparison would be landorus to gengar as they were both versatile attackers that constricted team building a lot. Chansey is not versatile and does not constrict team building, at least not any more than other commonly used OU pokemon.

I just burst in laugh. I literally laughed IRL. What the fuck are you talking about. I did compare the usage of these, saying that usage is not relevant when it comes to tiering and you are comparing Lando to Chansey as pokes similarity. Lando got banned while it's usage was like 20%, not even sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Chansey got like 33% right now. Jesus. How are you even a council member is a fucking mystery for me.

 

I don't feel like reading the rest of your post after reading that.

[bl0nde]

"Espeon sees no usage because of the fat blob"

 

-Metagross (pursuit or kill and resists psychic stab.)      <used on 40% of all teams

-Aerodactyl (outspeed to kill or can pursuit)  <used on 28% of all teams

-Arcanine (E-speed revenge kill) <used on 30% of all teams

-Slaking (pursuit or kill)

-Tauros (speed tie/possible kill or pursuit)

etc.

 

edit: but agree with some of the things said in the post.

Edited December 5, 2015 by bl0nde

[DrCraig]

I just burst in laugh. I literally laughed IRL. What the fuck are you talking about. I did compare the usage of these, saying that usage is not relevant when it comes to tiering and you are comparing Lando to Chansey as pokes similarity. Lando got banned while it's usage was like 20%, not even sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Chansey got like 33% right now. Jesus. How are you even a council member is a fucking mystery for me.

 

I don't feel like reading the rest of your post after reading that.

Forf I think you're drunk. This makes no sense young man.

[RysPicz]

Forf I think you're drunk. This makes no sense young man.

I wish I could say what I mean in my own language, but I compared the pokes usage-wise, not comparing their impact on the meta. The whole argument of Zeb is just pure bullshit and does not connect to what I wrote at all.

 

"Espeon sees no usage because of the fat blob"

 

-Metagross (pursuit or kill and resists psychic stab.)      <used on 40% of all teams

-Aerodactyl (outspeed to kill or can pursuit)  <used on 28% of all teams

-Arcanine (E-speed revenge kill) <used on 30% of all teams

-Slaking (pursuit or kill)

-Tauros (speed tie/possible kill or pursuit)

etc.

 

edit: but agree with some of the things said in the post.

Metagross gets shit on by HP Fire, which 90% of espeons should run and it's outspeeded. Aero is not a switch-in, it can only revenge kill. Arcanine unless sdef invested won't risk coming into Esp either. Slaking also won't risk coming into esp. We are talking about switch-ins when Esp is out in a favourable position. Neither of pokes you mentioned (except Metagross) would switch into Espeon.

Edited December 5, 2015 by RysPicz

[DoubleJ]

Forf I think you're drunk. This makes no sense young man.

 

Makes perfect sense big man. He was comparing the usage of these two pokes as examples that when something is broken, it's fucking broken and should be banned regardless of how frequently it's used. 

 

Zeb went full nub and started talking about how the two pokes are different characteristically. 

[Arimanius]

well idk how people say special attackers can't do anything without chansey in the tier as far as I know a timid alakazam can 2ko umbreon with ease in +2, hell it can even 2ko in +1 if some dmg or if status and gets 3ko by pursuit, porygon will lose against an alakazam but with chansey even in +2 is a 3ko. weather teams can deal several dmg to porygon and with status or spikes can deal with umbreon since weather teams need support anyway but with chansey the only way u can succed using a weather team is using a dugtrio and now with hyper voice is not even a secure possibility. I totally agree with rys, it's just crazy how u two compare chansey with pory and umbreon. I don't give a fuck about ou cause is shit (u want it this way) but it's amazing to read those comparisons

[NikhilR]

 

 

Dugtrio can still trap chansey, assuming it comes in cleanly, subs twice, and then takes a seismic toss from chansey, which puts it in the 4-10% range of hp where it can ohko chansey with a 150 base power reversal, bypassing the possibility of dying to hyper voice or hail. Block/mean look pokemon have more utility than just trapping chansey and its not like they're used that much anyways so chansey isn't really that centralizing in that department.  There are very few pokemon that are only run for chansey. I can look at the OU usage stats and see that basically none of them are solely for chansey. Some are wallbreakers, but obviously they have other utility outside of being chansey. Ursaring can take down umbreon/porygon2/ludicolo/venusaur etc. Chansey hates taking a choice band pursuit from pokemon like heracross or metagross, and if its running hyper voice, it definitely doesn't have room for protect. Offense is an important part for a wall or else you get shuckle syndrome where you can take hits but you can't do much in return. Umbreon/porygon2 beat calm minders easier than chansey because they have actual attacks to hit special attackers. 

 

 

Like I've said many times before on this thread, special attackers won't be any more viable if chansey got banned. Umbreon pursuit traps calm minders and starmie, beating them much easier than chansey can. Ludicolo can actually kill starmie, unlike chansey. Porygon2 takes hits from jolteon better than chansey can and can 2hko jolteon with return, something chansey can't do. It also has extra offense in being able to beat pokemon like flygon or gyarados. Espeon sees little usage because of metagross being on 50% of teams and it being revenge killed by aerodactyl. Chansey is not the sole reason for espeon being not used. Kingdra has been using the physical set since the start of hoenn and ludicolo has been a wall for even longer than that. For the rain dance sets, they're both still stopped by pretty much every other special wall like ludicolo, umbreon, porygon2, and venusaur. 

 

 

Sorry to nitpick Zebra, but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

If they switch out, it does less than 50% dmg and Chansey can switch into any special attacker and safely regain it's health. If you want Pursuit to work vs Chansey, it NEEDS to be toxic'd. Also I'd stop making it sound like because Chansey gets trapped by Dugtrio, it is stoppable. Dugtrio can trap several things and it's a whole other issue. 

 

Yes, Block / Mean Look are almost essentially for Chanseys and works mainly for them. What other pokemon do you expect to generally block and come out successful? If a Slowbro has block, it is to trap an incoming Chansey that wants to toxic. If a Gardevoir mean looks, it's to trap an incoming Chansey or else it gets screwed by Metagross or Arcanine. 

 

Umbreon pursuit traps successfully ONLY ONLY ONLY Starmie. Espeon, Gardevoir, Alakazam all have the capability of beating Umbreon with signal beam when they're at +1. At +1 they probably do more than 50% dmg to Umbreon whereas I'm sure calcs would show that +6 psychic from espeon 2hkos Chansey only. Ludicolo would hate switching into Starmie's psychics especially with the spdef drop and forces ludicolo to synthesis up considering how most Ludicolos are now bold 252hp/def. P2 makes Jolteon invalid, fair point. A +1 espeon with soft sand ohkoes Metagross if I'm right, so no Espeon isn't used much because of Metagross. So in no way are these switch ins. 

 

Umbreon, P2, Venusaur are forced to continue to recover their health in order to stall out the rain, unlike Chansey. Venusaur is the worst seeing as how synthesis offers lesser health recovery in rain, meaning Kingdra should probably beat Venu 1v1. Umbreon's best bet is to toxic and wish/protect, without any other means of offense. P2 needs to continuously recover as well to stall out the rain and overall does less dmg as well. 

 

It's one thing to consider Chansey non-banworthy, and it's another to downplay it and make it look as good as other special walls when it is ahead of the others by a huge margin. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by NikhilR

[BurntZebra]

 

And zeb being stubborn af and posting weird arguments, like...

 

I just burst in laugh. I literally laughed IRL. What the fuck are you talking about. I did compare the usage of these, saying that usage is not relevant when it comes to tiering and you are comparing Lando to Chansey as pokes similarity. Lando got banned while it's usage was like 20%, not even sure, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Chansey got like 33% right now. Jesus. How are you even a council member is a fucking mystery for me.

 

I don't feel like reading the rest of your post after reading that.

Comparisons are only valid if the two pokemon are remotely similar. A much more valid comparison would have been the mega sableye discussion compared to the chansey discussion as sableye is pretty low usage and is a defensive wall and can be seen as unhealthy, although I don't really think it is. If you really think landorus-i characteristics and chansey characteristics are similar, then I don't even know what you're talking about. 

[KaynineXL]

Keep Chansey, ban Dug.

 

Sure we lose 1 less problem for Chansey, but it makes stuff like Ursa a much bigger threat since it's an easy trap also.

Edited December 5, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Vaeldras]

Usage is not relevant anymore with chansey at this point.

We also know for sure (shut up forfie or else) it can be exploited by ursa, rhydon, machamp, linoone, haunter, heracross, sometimes metagross and dugtrio, block venusaur, anything with trick, charizard etc.

It can only 2 do things to your switch ins: status or toss.

Ok, it's versatile to a certain extent, but still highly exploitable.

It's not defensively uber, PERIOD and there are some good alternatives (although not as unbreakable) with a few edges over it.

 

So the only argument we have left is it makes sp walls unviable, aka unhealthiness.

We can go on discussing about it as much as we want, but that won't change anyone's opinion and this discussion has been going for a ridicolous amount of time.

The community is clearly split about it so the best thing we can do in this case would clearly be a test ban.

Anyway bringing unhealtiness as a valid ban reason wasn't the smartest thing imo

[RysPicz]

Usage is not relevant anymore with chansey at this point.

We also know for sure (shut up forfie or else) it can be exploited by ursa, rhydon, machamp, linoone, haunter, heracross, sometimes metagross and dugtrio, block venusaur, anything with trick, charizard etc.

It can only 2 do things to your switch ins: status or toss.

Ok, it's versatile to a certain extent, but still highly exploitable.

It's not defensively uber, PERIOD and there are some good alternatives (although not as unbreakable) with a few edges over it.

 

So the only argument we have left is it makes sp walls unviable, aka unhealthiness.

We can go on discussing about it as much as we want, but that won't change anyone's opinion and this discussion has been going for a ridicolous amount of time.

The community is clearly split about it so the best thing we can do in this case would clearly be a test ban.

Anyway bringing unhealtiness as a valid ban reason wasn't the smartest thing imo

All things you listed are physical threats. We're talking about how Chansey blocks special attackers making their playstyle and weather teams to be completly unviable. :v

I do see it as both unhealthy due to our incomplete meta where we lack special offensive presence combined with future gen moves and abilities, PLUS it is defensively uber. Period. No poke tops Chansey in terms of absorbing special hits. Nothing.

 

[spoiler]yeah bringing unhealtiness wasn't the smartest thing xdd[/spoiler]

[BurntZebra]

All things you listed are physical threats. We're talking about how Chansey blocks special attackers making their playstyle and weather teams to be completly unviable. :v

I do see it as both unhealthy due to our incomplete meta where we lack special offensive presence combined with future gen moves and abilities, PLUS it is defensively uber. Period. No poke tops Chansey in terms of absorbing special hits. Nothing.

 

[spoiler]yeah bringing unhealtiness wasn't the smartest thing xdd[/spoiler]

Chansey is not defensive uber. Blissey and snorlax were not defensive uber either. 

 

May I suggest you read https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/? Its a good thread for an amateur competition alley poster

[Vaeldras]

All things you listed are physical threats. We're talking about how Chansey blocks special attackers making their playstyle and weather teams to be completly unviable. :v

I do see it as both unhealthy due to our incomplete meta where we lack special offensive presence combined with future gen moves and abilities, PLUS it is defensively uber. Period. No poke tops Chansey in terms of absorbing special hits. Nothing.

 

[spoiler]yeah bringing unhealtiness wasn't the smartest thing xdd[/spoiler]

 

I don't know what we're talking about tbh, i mean you still go on saying it's defensively uber when not even chansey was ever deemed to be defensively uber in a meta where sp sweepers actually had usage, so wtf.

It would be easy to define it as defensively uber if it was, but i'm pretty sure everyone else here agrees it's not.

 

So what we're going to talk about now it's going to be how it affects sp hitters, that should be the only argument left and that means discussing about unhealtiness, which is a massive pain since totally subjective.

What else is left to be said at this point though? just test ban it  and see if we get a significant boost in usage with those sp sweepers.

[RysPicz]

I don't know what we're talking about tbh, i mean you still go on saying it's defensively uber when not even chansey was ever deemed to be defensively uber in a meta where sp sweepers actually had usage, so wtf.

It would be easy to define it as defensively uber if it was, but i'm pretty sure everyone else here agrees it's not.

 

So what we're going to talk about now it's going to be how it affects sp hitters, that should be the only argument left and that means discussing about unhealtiness, which is a massive pain since totally subjective.

What else is left to be said at this point though? just test ban it  and see if we get a significant boost in usage with those sp sweepers.

Chansey is a combination of support + defensive + unhealthiness (uhhh sorry I had to). The argument about previous meta isn't much relevant now after updates changing the metagame so much, we're somewhere different than we were with previous meta.

 

Well like I said again it shuts down an entire playstyle (special offensive) so defensive uber should also be taken under consideration. Along with unhealthiness.

[spoiler]I couldn't resist, sorry bruh XD[/spoiler]

 

Yeah I'm all up for a test ban, we should see a big spark in the usage of Zam, Esp, Star and some weather teams. I wouldn't even thing about getting rid of it if we'd have a complete gen 3 meta tho...

 

Keep Chansey, ban Dug.

 

Sure we lose 1 less problem for Chansey, but it makes stuff like Ursa a much bigger threat since it's an easy trap also.

If I'm up to be honest, I really fucking hate dug as well but it's so goddamn effective.

Edited December 5, 2015 by RysPicz

[Vaeldras]

Chansey is a combination of support + defensive + unhealthiness (uhhh sorry I had to). The argument about previous meta isn't much relevant now after updates changing the metagame so much, we're somewhere different than we were with previous meta.

 

Well like I said again it shuts down an entire playstyle (special offensive) so defensive uber should also be taken under consideration. Along with unhealthiness.

[spoiler]I couldn't resist, sorry bruh XD[/spoiler]

 

Yeah I'm all up for a test ban, we should see a big spark in the usage of Zam, Esp, Star and some weather teams. I wouldn't even thing about getting rid of it if we'd have a complete gen 3 meta tho...

 

I'm afraid you will have to stick with unhealtiness though, there's no way it's going to be considered defensively uber by the council or even a considerable amount of players anyway so please just drop that argument for the sake of making things easier.

The criteria for support uber is different than what you mean anyway, it really doesn't allow you to consistently setup a situation where you can sweep effortessly. I mean it does, but for your opponent (not even remotely consistently, but you get what i mean).

 

Again, remember blissey and snorlax? they'd never been banned if unhealtiness wasn't a factor, i don't see how chansey could ever get banned for that.

Not gonna happen, the only chance you have to see it banned is for a test ban to prove the meta would be considerably more enjoyable without chansey.

I personally think it wouldn't make it much different, but bans (sadly more than test bans) always change everyone's opinion.

[BurntZebra]

 

 

 

Sorry to nitpick Zebra, but there are a lot of things that need to be addressed:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 71-84 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

If they switch out, it does less than 50% dmg and Chansey can switch into any special attacker and safely regain it's health. If you want Pursuit to work vs Chansey, it NEEDS to be toxic'd. Also I'd stop making it sound like because Chansey gets trapped by Dugtrio, it is stoppable. Dugtrio can trap several things and it's a whole other issue. 

 

Yes, Block / Mean Look are almost essentially for Chanseys and works mainly for them. What other pokemon do you expect to generally block and come out successful? If a Slowbro has block, it is to trap an incoming Chansey that wants to toxic. If a Gardevoir mean looks, it's to trap an incoming Chansey or else it gets screwed by Metagross or Arcanine. 

 

Umbreon pursuit traps successfully ONLY ONLY ONLY Starmie. Espeon, Gardevoir, Alakazam all have the capability of beating Umbreon with signal beam when they're at +1. At +1 they probably do more than 50% dmg to Umbreon whereas I'm sure calcs would show that +6 psychic from espeon 2hkos Chansey only. Ludicolo would hate switching into Starmie's psychics especially with the spdef drop and forces ludicolo to synthesis up considering how most Ludicolos are now bold 252hp/def. P2 makes Jolteon invalid, fair point. A +1 espeon with soft sand ohkoes Metagross if I'm right, so no Espeon isn't used much because of Metagross. So in no way are these switch ins. 

 

Umbreon, P2, Venusaur are forced to continue to recover their health in order to stall out the rain, unlike Chansey. Venusaur is the worst seeing as how synthesis offers lesser health recovery in rain, meaning Kingdra should probably beat Venu 1v1. Umbreon's best bet is to toxic and wish/protect, without any other means of offense. P2 needs to continuously recover as well to stall out the rain and overall does less dmg as well. 

 

It's one thing to consider Chansey non-banworthy, and it's another to downplay it and make it look as good as other special walls when it is ahead of the others by a huge margin. 

 

If chansey takes that pursuit, then its going to be around 40% after factoring in the pursuit damage and damage chansey takes from special attackers when it comes in before the heracross. Once chansey is at 40%, it will have a very difficult time switching in as special attackers can 2hko it before chansey can do anything.

252 SpA Magnet Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 84-100 (23.5 - 28%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

(I know people don't like the idea of not running leftovers, but I mean adding the 20% type boosting item helps mitigate the difference of power between special attackers and physical attackers)

 

I only brought up dugtrio because forfiter mentioned that because dugtrio can't trap chansey (which is false), therefore chansey is too op. Trapping usually isn't worth bringing up in an argument for most scenarios. 

 

A block/mean look perish lapras/misdreavus can trap a whole lot more than just chansey. They can pretty much trap any wall, some special attackers, and some physical attackers. The block rest cm slowbro can be used for the other special walls as well, but I've only seen it used by one person and then that person lost so its probably not a great indicator of anything. 

 

Its better to back up arguments with calculations, rather than "probably" damages. Umbreon is able to beat gardevoir, alakazam, and espeon, even if they have signal beam. Umbreon avoids the 2hko from +1 signal beam

+1 252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 88-104 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

and is able to ohko alakazam with just a little prior damage.

128 Atk Umbreon Bite vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 108-128 (82.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The +6 psychic calcs were using a max hp/sp def calm chansey which we have already dismissed as that eliminates any argument about chansey being able to take physical attacks. 

 

Assuming that a specially defensive ludicolo wall is going to be bold max def is a bit ridiculous as well. If someone chooses to run ludicolo as their special wall, its obviously going to be max sp def calm. 

 

+1 252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 60 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 132-156 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and that's assuming only 60 hp evs on metagross and max special attack on espeon, which removes basically all of espeon's bulk, disallowing it from setting up on weaker walls. Then there's also gyarados, arcanine, porygon2, umbreon, aerodactyl, tauros, swampert, skarmory, ursaring, flygon, and kingdra which all can stop espeon from sweeping at +1. 

 

I also think its safe to say that chansey definitely needs to heal to stall out the rain, as ludicolo and kingdra are quite powerful.

252+ SpA Mystic Water Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey in Rain: 151-178 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain: 156-184 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Lastly, I would not say chansey is a high margin above the other special walls. Look at the usage stats. Chansey is sitting at 33%. Arcanine, porygon2, ludicolo, and venusaur are all in the 20s %. If chansey was so clearly a cut above the other special walls, the usage stats would reflect that like during the snorlax/blissey meta where snorlax was 70% usage and blissey was 50% usage, and ludicolo/porygon2 usage were in the 10-20% range. 

[DoubleJ]

Meta is shit. Has been shit. Might always be shit. For all the uguus that want to keep Chansey, let's at least start talking about banning Dugtrio to increase viability of Choice Band and Swords Dance users. 

 

Classic scenario today is that Dugtrio is running rampant and quality players are able to abuse it in a number of different ways. I'm legit starting to see 5 Walls + Dugtrio teams getting wins left and right, just because Dugtrio is able to revenge kill or remove anything that threatens these players' walls. 

 

Removing Dugtrio might just increase viability of offensive attackers, promoting use of physical sweepers outside of just Gyarados and Flygon. If you don't want to remove Chansey, then something else has to be done. I think this is a good option to make positive change.