[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Vaeldras]

Blissey is slightly different. It has ice beam/thunderbolt/flamethrower coverage possibilities which can ohko/2hko a lot of the physical attackers that can potentially come in. It also has improved bulk. 

 

Yeee, but we banned it to give sp hitters a chance

[DoubleJ]

I would agree that Chansey is the most centralizing pokemon in the tier. If you can break Chansey, you set yourself up for an incredible advantage against your opponent with a special sweeper, but this of course applies to nearly any team construct revolving around one special wall. 

 

Chansey though goes beyond just walling the top tier special attackers. It also supports its team via Choice Band scouting (Protect), Wish passing, and by acting as a cleric (Aromatherapy or Heal Bell). It also protects your team from status considering it carries Natural Cure and can swap into status, absorb it, and then swap out. 

 

There is though one con to using Chansey: you make yourself susceptible to attack by Swords Dance users that can nab a quick KO after going +2. Unfortunately these heavy hitters are all destroyed by Dugtrio, Chansey's most hated enemy and best friend. 

 

So in my opinion, and this has been brought up countless times, either ban Chansey (centralizing and/or uber-support) or ban Dugtrio (support). Banning Dugtrio to me makes more sense, since some of the characteristics that make Chansey broken (incredible special wall with ability to Wish pass) will only be passed on to other quality special walls like Umbreon or Gardevoir (neither are as good, but they both put a chokehold on special sweepers). A Dugtrio ban though opens the meta up for much more diverse play and can "even the playing field" between offense and stall, taking a powerful weapon away from both parties. 

[Laz]

Totally agreed jj, maybe a test ban for chansey as well will make things clear, and end this debate asap

[KaynineXL]

No no, I think we ban Dugtrio first, see how Chansey does then.

[Vaeldras]

As long as anything happens.

I see noone opposing a dugtrio ban, so maybe we should focus on that for now

Edited December 10, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Liberalisme]

Why isnt this fatty still not being banned?
 

This thing can switch in on everything and makes every special attacker in the game useless (except haunter). It can even take a guts pursuit from a cb heracross,that doesnt even do 25% damage on it.. The only way to stop it is trapping it with Dugtrio. That's just being uber to me.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Liberalisme

[lVlusay]

You think if heracross did more damage it would be balanced? Common man. You can't expect to be trapping a special wall so easily and expect it to be balanced.

Machamp, heracross, ursaring, venusaur, marowak, dugtrio, rhydon and most other physical sweepers destroy chansey or at least provide almost a free switch.

[FNTCZ]

I would agree that Chansey is the most centralizing pokemon in the tier. If you can break Chansey, you set yourself up for an incredible advantage against your opponent with a special sweeper, but this of course applies to nearly any team construct revolving around one special wall. 

 

Chansey though goes beyond just walling the top tier special attackers. It also supports its team via Choice Band scouting (Protect), Wish passing, and by acting as a cleric (Aromatherapy or Heal Bell). It also protects your team from status considering it carries Natural Cure and can swap into status, absorb it, and then swap out. 

 

There is though one con to using Chansey: you make yourself susceptible to attack by Swords Dance users that can nab a quick KO after going +2. Unfortunately these heavy hitters are all destroyed by Dugtrio, Chansey's most hated enemy and best friend. 

 

So in my opinion, and this has been brought up countless times, either ban Chansey (centralizing and/or uber-support) or ban Dugtrio (support). Banning Dugtrio to me makes more sense, since some of the characteristics that make Chansey broken (incredible special wall with ability to Wish pass) will only be passed on to other quality special walls like Umbreon or Gardevoir (neither are as good, but they both put a chokehold on special sweepers). A Dugtrio ban though opens the meta up for much more diverse play and can "even the playing field" between offense and stall, taking a powerful weapon away from both parties. 

 

Excuse me, what? i've read the "most centralizing pokemon" argument from you a lot, please say something different, you already said that in the dugtrio thread, also.. i just can't bear the words "chansey" and "uber" together, at least not while we're playing 3rd gen, rolf. or even worse, digglet / trapinch, just bc they play a niche role countering CB thunder punch users, they don't do much else, ya dugtrio may be a problem bc arena trap + his speed and a good dmg, but thats a whole different story that even considering to clasify diglett, chansey and trapinch as UBERS, this is going beyond ridicolous and it's almost like a bad joke, is niche not allowed anymore? i'd call for a reconsideration to the whole uber and OU tier, the 3rd gen metagame has already been played succesfully and healthy whitout all this madness..

Edited December 20, 2015 by FNTCZ

[DoubleJ]

Excuse me, what? i've read the "most centralizing pokemon" argument from you a lot, please say something different, you already said that in the dugtrio thread, also.. i just can't bear the words "chansey" and "uber" together, at least not while we're playing 3rd gen, rolf. or even worse, digglet / trapinch, just bc they play a niche role countering CB thunder punch users, they don't do much else, ya dugtrio may be a problem bc arena trap + his speed and a good dmg, but thats a whole different story that even considering to clasify diglett, chansey and trapinch as UBERS, this is going beyond ridicolous and it's almost like a bad joke, is niche not allowed anymore? i'd call for a reconsideration to the whole uber and OU tier, the 3rd gen metagame has already been played succesfully and healthy whitout all this madness..

 

Preferably we'd have an OU reset because yes, this is getting a bit ridiculous. We're banning things that honestly should not be threats to the standard metagame, but because of how imbalanced this tier has become they are. The only discouragement towards that, besides a tier council in clear opposition, is that we are not Gen 3, we are a hybrid system with movesets that make certain offensive threats absolutely broken (Salamence, Tyranitar, and arguably Dragonite). If we had some of the other classic OU pokemon like Celebi, Suicune, and Zapdos then the tier might be able to balance out, but we don't, so here we are. 

 

I've heard this argument from many other players in the community and it does get tiresome and somewhat laughable to think we have to consider banning something like Trapinch. In the end though, when you dig yourself into such a deep hole, the only plan is to keep on digging and hope you hit China. 

[lVlusay]

Preferably we'd have an OU reset because yes, this is getting a bit ridiculous. We're banning things that honestly should not be threats to the standard metagame, but because of how imbalanced this tier has become they are. The only discouragement towards that, besides a tier council in clear opposition, is that we are not Gen 3, we are a hybrid system with movesets that make certain offensive threats absolutely broken (Salamence, Tyranitar, and arguably Dragonite). If we had some of the other classic OU pokemon like Celebi, Suicune, and Zapdos then the tier might be able to balance out, but we don't, so here we are. 

 

I've heard this argument from many other players in the community and it does get tiresome and somewhat laughable to think we have to consider banning something like Trapinch. In the end though, when you dig yourself into such a deep hole, the only plan is to keep on digging and hope you hit China. 

 

In my opinion there are a few things that can change OU in the right direction. The biggest one is to implement a few strong walls like Suicune, Celebi and Zapdos as you have yourself mentioned.  The second one is to implement items and abilities, like choice scarf, poison heal, technician and so on. These 2 things (especially the first one) can change the whole OU and potentially bring back gengar, tyranitar, snorlax and blissey. But since we don't know when will this happen or whether it will happen at all, there is no point in discussing it.

 

If we talk about what is happening now, then this is just sad and in many ways ridiculous. Pokemmo has existed for many years now and this is the worst OU that there has ever been. I would go as far as to say that it has been better even before breeding was implemented. At least people were enjoying OU, it was huge and people didn't complain as much. We can talk about the mistakes that have been done (although it's debatable) like the physical/special split before more gen 4 moves and abilities were implemented. If we trace for when OU has started gong downhill, you can realize that it happened since then. Instead of enjoying the metagame with new pokemons like swampert, blaziken, flygon and others and exploring more possibilities, pokemons started getting banned.

 

If you study business or something related, you will know that the most thing important for an entrepreneur is stability and expectations. If that doesn't exist, then the person wouldn't want to do business because that would require a lot of risk. That might be the reason because I am personally so inactive (off for 2 month and back for 1). There is not much benefit in investing time into getting comps, ev training, building teams because these changes and bans affect the whole metagame and all investment can be lost. Of course many people wouldn't understand. I see people in trade forum showing their 4-5 boxes of comps. For them it might not make a different what gets banned or not, they can always choose a new 6 pokemon team to use in a tourney. For others though, it is a huge challenge. And just to clarify, I am not against changes, but when they happen so fast all the time, people cannot adapt.

 

Since the mistakes of the past cannot be changed, the question is what can be done now? Change the whole thing. Reexamine each and every ban. Bring back pokemons if there is no 100% reason to keep it banned. See what people say, see what people think. Isn't this the most important thing? For people to enjoy? Let it even be a little unbalanced if necessary, but let people use pokemons and teams that would make sense to use in OU. Stop worrying so much about usage. Strong pokemons are used a lot. Again, I won't claim to be an expert, but blissey and snorlax always enjoyed very high usage in 3rd and 4th gens. If these special walls are back, then we can bring back gengar, it wouldn't be so scary anymore. Do people realize that we basically only have 1 viable ghost ( spin blocker) in OU -  dusclops. How do you expect people play the spike game with 1 spin blocker? No choice than to use ducslops or play without spin blocker. It kills diversity, doesn't increase it. Change the system, start from the beginning, reexamine everything and most importantly listen to people who play the game. Peace!

Edited December 20, 2015 by lVlusay

[DoubleJ]

=)

 

Love this, thanks bro. 

[DrCraig]

In my opinion there are a few things that can change OU in the right direction. The biggest one is to implement a few strong walls like Suicune, Celebi and Zapdos as you have yourself mentioned.  The second one is to implement items and abilities, like choice scarf, poison heal, technician and so on. These 2 things (especially the first one) can change the whole OU and potentially bring back gengar, tyranitar, snorlax and blissey. But since we don't know when will this happen or whether it will happen at all, there is no point in discussing it.

 

If the Devs gave us new stuff that'd be nice, but sadly they don't. The tier council can't implement legendaries. :(

 

If we talk about what is happening now, then this is just sad and in many ways ridiculous. Pokemmo has existed for many years now and this is the worst OU that there has ever been. I would go as far as to say that it has been better even before breeding was implemented. At least people were enjoying OU, it was huge and people didn't complain as much. We can talk about the mistakes that have been done (although it's debatable) like the physical/special split before more gen 4 moves and abilities were implemented. If we trace for when OU has started gong downhill, you can realize that it happened since then. Instead of enjoying the metagame with new pokemons like swampert, blaziken, flygon and others and exploring more possibilities, pokemons started getting banned.

 

Well it's been a long time and it's pretty clear the council/players had to adapt to whatever the Devs threw at them. :(

 

If you study business or something related, you will know that the most thing important for an entrepreneur is stability and expectations. If that doesn't exist, then the person wouldn't want to do business because that would require a lot of risk. That might be the reason because I am personally so inactive (off for 2 month and back for 1). There is not much benefit in investing time into getting comps, ev training, building teams because these changes and bans affect the whole metagame and all investment can be lost. Of course many people wouldn't understand. I see people in trade forum showing their 4-5 boxes of comps. For them it might not make a different what gets banned or not, they can always choose a new 6 pokemon team to use in a tourney. For others though, it is a huge challenge. And just to clarify, I am not against changes, but when they happen so fast all the time, people cannot adapt.

 

This is shit. Yea grinding sucks, but if you want to be involved in competitive play you have to adapt to the meta. People come time and time again with the "I don't want to train my this because its going to get banned." Pokemon don't remain in OU because we want to use them. That's where the training to be the very best there ever was shenanigans comes into play.

 

Since the mistakes of the past cannot be changed, the question is what can be done now? Change the whole thing. Reexamine each and every ban. Bring back pokemons if there is no 100% reason to keep it banned. See what people say, see what people think. Isn't this the most important thing? For people to enjoy? Let it even be a little unbalanced if necessary, but let people use pokemons and teams that would make sense to use in OU. Stop worrying so much about usage. Strong pokemons are used a lot. Again, I won't claim to be an expert, but blissey and snorlax always enjoyed very high usage in 3rd and 4th gens. If these special walls are back, then we can bring back gengar, it wouldn't be so scary anymore. Do people realize that we basically only have 1 viable ghost ( spin blocker) in OU -  dusclops. How do you expect people play the spike game with 1 spin blocker? No choice than to use ducslops or play without spin blocker. It kills diversity, doesn't increase it. Change the system, start from the beginning, reexamine everything and most importantly listen to people who play the game. Peace!

 

y u do dis

 

"Change the whole thing"

a LOT of time was put into developing OU, UU and NU from scratch and completely resetting this would be nonsensical and huge waste of many people's time to please some exaggerated ideal.

 

"Reexamine each and every ban. Bring back pokemons if there is no 100% reason to keep it banned."

The problem with what you just said is there was reason. This goes hand in hand with being a complete waste of time. Do your research and go find out why pokemon were banned in their respective metas before wanting the council's work thrown in the trash.

 

"Stop worrying so much about usage"

*Eh hem* Usage doesn't warrant fucking bans. Usage also created the tiers. If you can't tell, Overused is composed over pokemon used a lot. NU is composed of pokemon who are never used in OU. Funny how it makes sense eh?

 

What I read was basically: Reset the whole meta, start all over, and ultimately do the same thing all over again. Scrap all the time and effort put into tiering so we can do it all again. Nothing should be different, but let's reset for the fuck of it because it sounds nice.

 

I know you didn't claim to be an expert man, but you have to realize that this all pokemmo metagame was made from scratch through usage just to get the basis for each tier set. Bans were made with conscious thought, some were even reversed, and in the end the meta moves on. Nothing is banned because it was thought to be sorta op or because it had a lot of usage. All decisions, which are archived btw, were made in parallel situation: the meta is pretty shit, let's do this work towards un-shitting it. Things change to ultimately reach a better meta. It may get bumpy, but we gotta move forward.

[Robofiend]

There won't be an OU reset, while I personally kinda miss the Gengar meta, all of the other OU bans seem pretty reasonable at this point. If you played OU last spring you saw the Curselax wars, the Dragonite sweeps and noticed that every team was Arcanine/Snorlax/Metagross/Gengar/Skarmory/filler or in the Dragon era when teams were usually Dragonite/Slowbro/Foretress/Snorlax/Metagross/filler. OU is way more diverse now and we've even seen people improvise new sets to beat opponents instead of recycling standard sets to rely on one pokemon sweeping.

 

Re: new pokes - everyone wants them (especially Heatran) but it's not up to us when they arrive. There will be a someday when Gengar, Tyranitar and Snorlax can come chill, and it's probably when 4th Gen pokes/moves come out.

 

I posted in the Dugtrio thread that I think that Arena Trap would probably be our last ban until new pokes are added which is exciting for everyone.

[TitanPawnz]

Ok the dug ban was ok because of reversal or what ever. But now I relize dug was really the only effiient chansey stopper. Since dug is banned, this just makes the OU tier unhealthy

 

HP: 250   Attack: 5      Defense: 5   Sp. Atk: 35   Sp. Def: 105   Speed: 50

  

 

Now those are fucking troll stats.

 

It walls everysingle sp atker which makes it impossible to kill (belive me, this thing will wall till you have struggle) and this thing can even wall out most psyhical attackers because of its insane hp.

 

 

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame. Against sp atkers

 

 

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. Against...... everything.............

 

Why the hell is this thing not banned yet?

 

Reposting this here

[lVlusay]

Ok the dug ban was ok because of reversal or what ever. But now I relize dug was really the only effiient chansey stopper. Since dug is banned, this just makes the OU tier unhealthy

 

HP: 250   Attack: 5      Defense: 5   Sp. Atk: 35   Sp. Def: 105   Speed: 50

  

 

Now those are fucking troll stats.

 

It walls everysingle sp atker which makes it impossible to kill (belive me, this thing will wall till you have struggle) and this thing can even wall out most psyhical attackers because of its insane hp.

 

 

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame. Against sp atkers

 

 

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. Against...... everything.............

 

Why the hell is this thing not banned yet?

 

Reposting this here

 

Have you heard of physical sweepers, guts abusers, choice band users, setting up swords dance? Or even leech seed, spikes, pain split? If you are trying to kill a special wall with a special sweeper, you won't have much luck mate.

[DoctorPBC]

blaziken is a ton more viable now that dug is gone too, best mixed sweeper we have probably

[Xboxmasterrace321]

Have you heard of physical sweepers, guts abusers, choice band users, setting up swords dance? Or even leech seed, spikes, pain split? If you are trying to kill a special wall with a special sweeper, you won't have much luck mate.

I believe the argument is about centralization. Right now I see it and porygon the main ones left. And anymore idk if centralization is ban worthy. Every gem their are dominate pokes and without the added pokes to our game this meta will eventually get to the point where the same pokes will be used no matter what In the long run.

And blaziken has always been great it's just it was never used do to things out classing it like the dragons etc. the fear of trio isn't really an excuse imo when u can run endure on it if I'm not mistaken. It's just with bans we are forcing the community to adapt and make us think that it's changing but in reality we will always have the same pokes holding a stagnant meta do to the lack of pokes being implemented. Edited December 25, 2015 by Xboxmasterrace321

[Vaeldras]

I keep hearing "yo, i heard the council decided to ban chansey" from various guys.

What's happening?

[BurntZebra]

I keep hearing "yo, i heard the council decided to ban chansey" from various guys.

What's happening?

Usually not a good idea to listen to rumors. We haven't had any full OU tournaments yet to see the OU meta without dugtrio. And with tiering policies, bans will basically never take place unless a month passes between a ban. 

[Vaeldras]

Usually not a good idea to listen to rumors. We haven't had any full OU tournaments yet to see the OU meta without dugtrio. And with tiering policies, bans will basically never take place unless a month passes between a ban. 

 

I asked just in case, you never know.

Can we still discuss here or would it be better to just wait?

[BurntZebra]

I asked just in case, you never know.

Can we still discuss here or would it be better to just wait?

You can discuss how the OU meta is with chansey here

[RysPicz]

You can discuss how the OU meta is with chansey here

We've been doing that for 13 pages and the effect was Dugtrio ban and not Chansey. Right now discussion is pointless anyway since we all know that the ban won't happen anyway (I do not want to imply that this is what community would want though).

For now from what I've played in Verm, Chansey is much less problematic without Dug coming to kill my Heracross/ Rhydon/ Blaziken but I'd need to play and watch some officials to develop a more complex opinion.

[RysPicz]

Okay I think I've seen and experienced enough.

 

Chansey rules the tier along with Metagross. As long as Metagross is manageable, that much Chansey's unrivalled support capabillities combined with it's special bulk make it more than just a top tier threat. I came prepared for Chansey, carrying 2 pokes made especially to counter it and yet, lost, because of Chansey (and rock slide miss from Aero but that's a different story).

 

In every other battle I've spectated, Chansey's usage is ridiculous. Every battle is at least Chansey in one team and usually safest switch for Chansey is... another Chansey, ending up with a stall fest of Chansey vs Chansey. Chansey Chansey Chansey Chansey.

 

We had 13 pages of discussion about it, all the arguments about getting rid of that cancer were already posted, I don't feel like repeating myself or anyone else. It kills every kind of strategic thinking, it's a no-brainer pokemon. I thought Dug's ban will make it less reliable but it went totally other way around, now without it's biggest counter, that pink blob rules the tier along with Metagross.

 

In this meta without Dugtrio, Chansey is even more cancerous as it was before and those words are coming from a player who runs all out offensive physical teams.

[Robofiend]

In this meta without Dugtrio, Chansey is even more cancerous as it was before and those words are coming from a player who runs all out offensive physical teams.

 

Well... Chansey is part of an answer to hyper offense so it makes sense that you'd be opposed.

 

If Zebra was complaining then I might be more convinced. 

[RysPicz]

Well... Chansey is part of an answer to hyper offense so it makes sense that you'd be opposed.

 

If Zebra was complaining then I might be more convinced. 

It does not matter if it's part of an answer to hyper offense. It's an answer to every single kind of playstyle and blocks the usage of special attacking pokes.

 

And Zeb does not complain about pokes he uses.