[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Albeast33]

So we can start the process again properly without being caught in chain bans. Eventually, everything is going to get banned because it will have no counters once its counter has been banned. A long time down the road, UU will essentially become OU, and Ubers will be OU.

 

The only reason Uber is gaining traction as an actual tier is because of the OU chain bans moving everything up. That is where the root of the issue lies.

[Gunthug]

So we can start the process again properly without being caught in chain bans. Eventually, everything is going to get banned because it will have no counters once its counter has been banned. A long time down the road, UU will essentially become OU, and Ubers will be OU.

 

The only reason Uber is gaining traction as an actual tier is because of the OU chain bans moving everything up. That is where the root of the issue lies.

there's so much faulty logic in this post, I don't even know where to start. I'll save myself the effort though, and just say that not every ban starts a chain of bans, and the goal of each ban is to find balance within the tier. A balanced tier is possible, it's been achieved in many other metagames through the use of bans, so theoretically it should be possible here. Whether it's actually possible (or rather, ever going to happen w/o gen 4 moves and pokes) is a subject for debate, but I'd much prefer we attempted to balance the tiers here via a tier council and bans than the alternative (sitting back and just letting a bunch of overpowered shit destroy the tiers and any semblance of balance or creativity)

 

The council reset the OU bans once and I believe everything (correct me if I'm wrong here) that came back was banned again eventually. No need to repeat history a third time. However, I'm not against testing an Uber or two in OU to try to regain balance - that's a method often used in newer metagames with mixed results

 

edit: did heracross get banned once in OU? I can't remember. that may be the exception

Edited February 2, 2016 by Gunthug

[Vaeldras]

there's so much faulty logic in this post, I don't even know where to start. I'll save myself the effort though, and just say that not every ban starts a chain of bans, and the goal of each ban is to find balance within the tier. A balanced tier is possible, it's been achieved in many other metagames through the use of bans, so theoretically it should be possible here. Whether it's actually possible (or rather, ever going to happen w/o gen 4 moves and pokes) is a subject for debate, but I'd much prefer we attempted to balance the tiers here via a tier council and bans than the alternative (sitting back and just letting a bunch of overpowered shit destroy the tiers and any semblance of balance or creativity)

 

The council reset the OU bans once and I believe everything (correct me if I'm wrong here) that came back was banned again eventually. No need to repeat history a third time. However, I'm not against testing an Uber or two in OU to try to regain balance - that's a method often used in newer metagames with mixed results

 

edit: did heracross get banned once in OU? I can't remember. that may be the exception

 

pre split, mainly because of reversal

[Albeast33]

there's so much faulty logic in this post, I don't even know where to start. I'll save myself the effort though, and just say that not every ban starts a chain of bans, and the goal of each ban is to find balance within the tier. A balanced tier is possible, it's been achieved in many other metagames through the use of bans, so theoretically it should be possible here. Whether it's actually possible (or rather, ever going to happen w/o gen 4 moves and pokes) is a subject for debate, but I'd much prefer we attempted to balance the tiers here via a tier council and bans than the alternative (sitting back and just letting a bunch of overpowered shit destroy the tiers and any semblance of balance or creativity)

 

The council reset the OU bans once and I believe everything (correct me if I'm wrong here) that came back was banned again eventually. No need to repeat history a third time. However, I'm not against testing an Uber or two in OU to try to regain balance - that's a method often used in newer metagames with mixed results

 

edit: did heracross get banned once in OU? I can't remember. that may be the exception

 

Let me rephrase myself then. Without 4th gen Pokémon or moves, the tiers will never be truly balanced in PokeMMO.

[BurntZebra]

Let me rephrase myself then. Without 4th gen Pokémon or moves, the tiers will never be truly balanced in PokeMMO.

You don't really know that for sure. Even if we had 4th gen pokemon/moves, we're still not the same meta as DPP OU. We have some gen 6 mechanics, some gen 5, and some gen 3-4 still. 

[Robofiend]

Let me rephrase myself then. Without 4th gen Pokémon or moves, the tiers will never be truly balanced in PokeMMO.

 

Can you explain your reasoning? I don't see any reason why it's inconceivable for this game to have balanced metagames.

[Vaeldras]

Let me rephrase myself then. Without 4th gen Pokémon or moves, the tiers will never be truly balanced in PokeMMO.

 

well, there's nothing broken in ou at the moment

although we can debate whether chansey is healthy or not using it isn't a must, nor there's anything that requires you to run more than 2 checks/1 solid counter

[DoubleJ]

So it's confirmed, the tier council went on vacation. They can't even come to a decision to close this thread, or push UU tournaments to make a decision on Scizor, or bring up any sort of conversation regarding NU.

 

Let me ask this, does the tier council believe the tiers are now stable and healthy, or are any decisions being postponed because we have an upcoming update which will alter tiering as is (for example, introduction of legendaries)? 

 

I left the council to see it become more active and to see it function better. I felt I was a hindrance to this because I was opposing a lot of opinions and beliefs by seasoned members like Robofiend and Burntzebra, which led to a lack of uniformity that prevented decisions from being made. Since I've left, there really hasn't been anything done at all and this is frustrating to me. 

[Robofiend]

So it's confirmed, the tier council went on vacation. They can't even come to a decision to close this thread, or push UU tournaments to make a decision on Scizor, or bring up any sort of conversation regarding NU.

 

Let me ask this, does the tier council believe the tiers are now stable and healthy, or are any decisions being postponed because we have an upcoming update which will alter tiering as is (for example, introduction of legendaries)? 

 

We're waiting on Scizor in UU and not really sure what to do about Chansey in OU. There are lots of mixed opinions here about what the best way to proceed is. We have updated usage that applies to Chansey in particular, but I believe it's still classified until we get UU usage. We also have been discussing some mechanics changes with staff to make sure that nothing breaks the game there.

 

As for NU, no one has bothered to post in the NU Tier Discussion Thread since Christmas, so I'm not sure what you want here. We've internally talked a little bit about Zangoose and Lapras but since we haven't had any complaints from the community we've agreed to sit back and let the tier develop some more. Every time I play NU I feel the game is balanced, diverse, and interesting, so I'm personally not highly interested in pushing for more bans, although maybe pokemon like Zangoose and Lapras deserve some public discussion.

 

I like that NU is a really offensive tier where stall can still thrive. 

 

I left the council to see it become more active and to see it function better. I felt I was a hindrance to this because I was opposing a lot of opinions and beliefs by seasoned members like Robofiend and Burntzebra, which led to a lack of uniformity that prevented decisions from being made. Since I've left, there really hasn't been anything done at all and this is frustrating to me. 

 

Well technically nothing has been done since we re-organized the TC structure into a supergroup instead of a bunch of warring factions. Your leaving was coincidental. If you recall, slowing down the process was a highly intended consequence of this, because in the past, various sub-councils had moved too hastily in making decisions. We all still disagree on pretty much everything and it's hard to get everyone to come around to vote on things (it also hurts that we lost Noad). 

 

I personally don't see what the issue is: OU is more interesting than it has been in months, UU is stalled as you would expect, NU is pretty enjoyable.

[RysPicz]

I think that soon Zangoose and Crobat will be moved to UU anyway due to usage. But back on topic

 

I personally don't see what the issue is: OU is more interesting than it has been in months

I can't agree with that. Not at all. With Metagross and Chansey being in 50% of the teams (give us usage stats to see how far I am from the truth), and like 30% going for pokes like Slowbro/ Arcanine/ Weez (forming awesome defensive core with Chansey), I simply cannot agree. I keep seeing same pokes over and over. It's not interesting to see the same pokes all the time. I don't see many innovative sets or low-usage pokes being used more often.

 

The tier is BORING and it's because of the fat pink blob, that's how I see it.

Edited February 4, 2016 by RysPicz

[londark]

I keep seeing same pokes over and over. It's not interesting to see the same pokes all the time. I don't see many innovative sets or low-usage pokes being used more often.

 

The tier is BORING and it's because of the fat pink blob, that's how I see it.

 

And do you think it's only Chansey fault? 

 

I personally belive it's partially fault of the Comp system we have, aka, only officials tournaments, where you tend to go with safest team possible to avoid losing and so precluding the chance of going on. On a Ladder like system where a loss isn't as bad as in a tournamente ( single elimination most of the time ) MAYBE   people could be less scared of trying some new stuff

 

More. It was already said somewhere else that the grind to make/get comps is too much. This prevents ( or makes you thinks more than once ) about getting some new kind of set ( Endavour Swamper when ) or comp that can or cannot actually work. Plus, with the Officials System, and only  having only tournaments, making some kind of new innovative set could potentially cost more than what it actually will get you in return, again, preventing people to experiment more

 

 

Imo, whit this kind of comp scene and the grind most players will always go and invest resources in the "easiest" and less risky Pokemon ( Snorlax, Blissey, Salamemence before ) and the meta will end up stalling itself.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Robofiend]

I think that soon Zangoose and Crobat will be moved to UU anyway due to usage. But back on topic

 

I can't agree with that. Not at all. With Metagross and Chansey being in 50% of the teams (give us usage stats to see how far I am from the truth), and like 30% going for pokes like Slowbro/ Arcanine/ Weez (forming awesome defensive core with Chansey), I simply cannot agree. I keep seeing same pokes over and over. It's not interesting to see the same pokes all the time. I don't see many innovative sets or low-usage pokes being used more often.

 

The tier is BORING and it's because of the fat pink blob, that's how I see it.

 

Yeah, I definitely agree that Chansey makes things boring. There's a reason this thread has stayed open so long, though, and it's because usage stats haven't materialized for us in ages to test our theories and because a potential ban is still on the table. When I say that the tier is diverse, I mean it's better than anything we've had before since the split- no 60% Gengar, no 60% Curselax, etc. People do use odd pokemon here and there, like Blaziken, Charizard, and CB Swampert, however. 

 

I think your issue is similar to JJ's thread about how people breed safe, boring pokemon instead of innovate because the cost of innovation is so much higher than just playing it safe. It's way easier to rip off someone else's team than it is to say "Fuck it, I'm breeding SubPunch Zard, Trapinch, Trick Zam instead of wall Arcanine" because there's the risk that these pokemon are not going to be as useful as 

 

I will say one thing: I'm coming back around to the idea of banning Chansey, in part because of the community's input, but I still find it rather troubling. First, being boring =/= being banworthy yada yada. Second, I'm not sure if banning Chansey would help that much. Umbreon, Gardevoir, and Vaporeon can still perform a similar role on teams, though not without Heal Bell. Without Chansey, Toxic stall can kill many specially defensive pokemon and Special Kingdra is pretty hard to stop without Ludicolo or Vaporeon, both of whom are harder to swap into. While there are options here, I like Chansey because it also allows for offensive teams to have some confidence against random special threats and status-stall that would otherwise take 2 walls to deal with.

 

Londar ninja'd me on that. I'd like to keep complaints about the game (e.g. not complaints about the metagame, but complaints about how hard it is to grind for everything) out of this thread to avoid a derail. 

[DrCraig]

So it's confirmed, the tier council went on vacation. They can't even come to a decision to close this thread, or push UU tournaments to make a decision on Scizor, or bring up any sort of conversation regarding NU.

Regarding this bold statement which bugs me:

I have made numerous posts and asked multiple staff members for the past couple of weeks to have some UU tournaments. I have made attempts, you can ask Eggplant. There will be more staff + TC coordination in the future hopefully. Stop coming on here an talking out your ass.

 

Now regarding this thread, I don't  see a problem with having a thread open. If you really want a 'We're not banning it' and lock post, it can be arranged. We can even write 'so JJ stops complaining' at the bottom.

NU? https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54830-nu-tier-discussion-request-thread/

 

 

Let me ask this, does the tier council believe the tiers are now stable and healthy, or are any decisions being postponed because we have an upcoming update which will alter tiering as is (for example, introduction of legendaries)? 

My opinions:

• OU is fine
• UU is stable, but unhealthy
• NU is stable and healthy (Zangoose is a problem however, which has been discussed within TC)

I don't like Chansey as much as the next guy, but I can't see it going anywhere.

 

No groundbreaking updates are coming to the best of our knowledge.I also don't know what there 'decisions' are because you make it like we're pushing off a ton of shit. We literally have 1 test ban and 1 open thread which is lucky to be open.

 

The tier is BORING and it's because of the fat pink blob, that's how I see it.

I don't think Gladiator finds it boring

[Vaeldras]

 I'm coming back around to the idea of banning Chansey, in part because of the community's input, but I still find it rather troubling. First, being boring =/= being banworthy yada yada. Second, I'm not sure if banning Chansey would help that much. Umbreon, Gardevoir, and Vaporeon can still perform a similar role on teams, though not without Heal Bell. Without Chansey, Toxic stall can kill many specially defensive pokemon and Special Kingdra is pretty hard to stop without Ludicolo or Vaporeon, both of whom are harder to swap into. While there are options here, I like Chansey because it also allows for offensive teams to have some confidence against random special threats and status-stall that would otherwise take 2 walls to deal with.

 

 

Well, if you're still neutral  and open to input i think a poll could help.

In any case, i'm for a test ban, especially if you're gonna play the "boring" card.

[KaynineXL]

Regarding this bold statement which bugs me:

I have made numerous posts and asked multiple staff members for the past couple of weeks to have some UU tournaments. I have made attempts, you can ask Eggplant. There will be more staff + TC coordination in the future hopefully. Stop coming on here an talking out your ass.

 

Now regarding this thread, I don't  see a problem with having a thread open. If you really want a 'We're not banning it' and lock post, it can be arranged. We can even write 'so JJ stops complaining' at the bottom.

NU? https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54830-nu-tier-discussion-request-thread/

 

 

My opinions:

• OU is fine
• UU is stable, but unhealthy
• NU is stable and healthy (Zangoose is a problem however, which has been discussed within TC)

I don't like Chansey as much as the next guy, but I can't see it going anywhere.

 

No groundbreaking updates are coming to the best of our knowledge.I also don't know what there 'decisions' are because you make it like we're pushing off a ton of shit. We literally have 1 test ban and 1 open thread which is lucky to be open.

 

I don't think Gladiator finds it boring

 

I know JJ is a friend of mine, so it might seem obvious for me to team with him here, but I just wanted to point something out.

 

You say stuff like "If you really want a 'We're not banning it' and lock post, it can be arranged. We can even write 'so JJ stops complaining' at the bottom." and it irritates me that you'd talk like that to someone who is nagging for something to happen. To be honest, we have waited a long time for some things to happen, looking at Chansey and Walrein here. Of course people have the right to nag you guys about it. Sure JJ might have sounded a little bitter, but maybe after nagging a fair bit with no results he's getting a little frustrated.

 

I think the Chansey and Walrein discussion has had a lot of opinions already which is why we probably don't see more additional comments, either way they both seem to have support both ways so I can see why it would be tough to call.

 

Hope you can get some answers in soon 

[BurntZebra]

Well, if you're still neutral and open to input i think a poll could help.
In any case, i'm for a test ban, especially if you're gonna play the "boring" card.

Polls typically don't play any purpose and we don't really want the community to get the idea that we are being swayed by the community's vote. They're just more misleading to people than they are helpful in general in most cases.

[DrCraig]

I know JJ is a friend of mine, so it might seem obvious for me to team with him here, but I just wanted to point something out.

You say stuff like "If you really want a 'We're not banning it' and lock post, it can be arranged. We can even write 'so JJ stops complaining' at the bottom." and it irritates me that you'd talk like that to someone who is nagging for something to happen. To be honest, we have waited a long time for some things to happen, looking at Chansey and Walrein here. Of course people have the right to nag you guys about it. Sure JJ might have sounded a little bitter, but maybe after nagging a fair bit with no results he's getting a little frustrated.

I think the Chansey and Walrein discussion has had a lot of opinions already which is why we probably don't see more additional comments, either way they both seem to have support both ways so I can see why it would be tough to call.

Hope you can get some answers in soon

Honestly if a decision was made for a ban, the threads would close sooner. The threads being open for soooo long kinda implies a 'no.' I feel you though. As of right now I'm 90% sure the tier council is choosing to keep it OU. Sorry for the choice of words, JJ is really good at baiting me.

Edit: maybe that 90% is exaggerated tbh. I'd say the majority vote would keep it OU. I'd like to test ban it but there really isn't proper reasoning to do so. However we DO make the policies; I think that fact is often overlooked. Edited February 4, 2016 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

I'd really appreciate seeing some votes for/against Chansey from the comp community at large since I believe we'll be voting soon

[DrCraig]

I don't think it's ban worthy, but I deem it as a problem and would like to see the meta without it.

[OrangeManiac]

c-c-c-combo breaker

 

Alright, I agree it's only fair to give some input to the community by now. I do agree a some kind of a vote should have happened by now but Chansey is one of the most problematic Pokemon tiering wise. There's just no way to argue that it isn't unhealthy to metagame at least to some degree because it is the most centralizing Pokemon of the metagame. This isn't just PokeMMO issue. I find Chansey/Blissey the most centralizing Pokemon of every metagame they ever are in. It's just the nature of that Pokemon. It feels like the council is like "well, don't beuhn it but closing the thread would imply we don't find it as an issue at all". At least I feel that way.

 

To my own statement about Chansey, I don't think it's banworthy. I've dedicated my playstyle to offense first since 2013 and I feel like at no point has the OU metagame been in a such a balance between offense and defense than it is with the current OU metagame. Quite rather, I feel like highly offensive leaned teams are possible to work while full defense leaned teams tend to not work that well. Pokemon like Metagross, Ursaring, Heracross, Blaziken, DD Kingdra, physical Charizard generally don't have too much problem breaking through defense if played right. In addition, special sweepers are an option too with Trapinch support or enough physical offense to set the table. While special sweepers get shut down completely by Chansey, when Chansey is out of the equation then I don't think any Pokemon sweep as effortlessly in the current OU as fast special sweepers. Sp. Def P2 can shut them down for some extent but usually it is just Chansey or P2 or that defensive team is really weak to wallbreakers.

 

Chansey is not defensive Ubers. To me, a Pokemon which is able to "wall a Pokemon" should also be able to beat them. This is something Chansey can't do. Any recovery move / Rest + Heal Bell by default shuts down Chansey while these Pokemon can have something offensive going for them as well. Chansey can't. For what I'm the most on fence about is the Chansey's ability to pass Wish with such lack of needed effort. Giving free turns against this thing isn't an option because before you realize your opposing team is in full HP again. Therefor if there was something to possibly categorize Chansey, it's possible support ubers. But I'm not going to jump to that train because I've never experienced such a balance between offense and defensive based teams.

 

I once created a theoretical cycle to describe the metagame of the OU. These are generalizations and no team is 100% of any of this, but just a general field of the main archetypes right now. It goes: Fast offense > Guts Offense > Wall-teams > Fast Offense. Gb said he thinks it's otherwise fair but he feels like Guts offense has the biggest advantage over anything in this cycle and talking to some defensive players, they all seem to agree about it and the more I spectate and play OU, I start to agree about it too.

 

The common argument for Chansey ban is its high usage. It's highly misleading, though. What comes to offense, you do have some from to choose from. For a defensive Wish Pokemon role, you have two. Umbreon and Chansey. The actual usage of offensive based Pokemon is the same as Chansey I'd argue, but because of the lack of to choose from Chansey takes the cake (party slot) every time.

 

I understand that no Pokemon limits the metagame the way Chansey does. Like I said, it's just the nature of the Pokemon. However, if you're starting to ban Pokemon that are uberworthy in some definition in paper and don't overperform in battle it's starting to get in the wrong direction. And like I said, I've yet to see a metagame with offense and defense is such a good harmony. The only problem is the lack of # of viable Pokemon in OU but can't have them all, I guess.

[Spaintakula]

-nerd text-

The only problem is the lack of # of viable Pokemon in OU but can't have them all, I guess.

Now imagine legendaries and Pressure being in the metagame a lot more than it currently is.

 

Can't we just riot so they can implement that shit

[bl0nde]

Guts offense has the biggest advantage over anything in this cycle and talking to some defensive players, they all seem to agree about it and the more I spectate and play OU, I start to agree about it too.

+1 Guts offense is for real. For example, "Special Wall" ludicolo is as popular as porygon2. As we know, it fires off giga drains, surfs, and leech seeds so it is not as free of a switch in like chansey. Some of them carry knock off too to knock off your bands. It's hard to one hit that ludicolo and take it out when it giga drains and leech seeds. So your back up strategy can be to try to status that Ludi. It's a mistake to try it though because heracross or ursaring is waiting right there for a guts boost. For a defensive team not carrying the right "core breaker" and also depending on status to take down some certain pokemon variants, it can make for a very... difficult scenario to play against - a situation where I would place my bet on the offensive team 7 times out of 10.

 

edit: um.. also we know the fact that chansey is #1 special wall and its main weapon is toss/toxic doesn't hurt guts user chances. (lol)

Edited February 5, 2016 by bl0nde

[Thunderprime]

I don't understand the point of banning chansey.. people will just all switch to umbreon. I use chansey since dugtrio was banned because it was THE counter of chansey. Now yes chansey is very hard to kill without trapping it but that poke is just so damn easy to predict and counter. Now the best way to kill it is to crush all the teams it is supporting. My point is that the pink blob is a damn staller but nothing of a treat. Gengar get banned then dugtrio rises. Dugtrio get banned chansey rises... ban chansey and everyone will run kingras and zam/espeon with signal beam. By the way did dugtrio get banned because of reversal or arena trap? Because this poke is also so easy to counter, all pokes got a counter. Even gengar but he has movesets to counter his counters XD.
Btw I dont use toxic/twave on chansey

Edited February 6, 2016 by Thunderprime

[Gunthug]

By the way did dugtrio get banned because of reversal or arena trap? Because this poke is also so easy to counter, all pokes got a counter.

you literally can't counter dugtrio

[Thunderprime]

But easiest revenge kill ever, everyone got aero/adcanine/quickattack