[OU Discussion] Chansey (Remains OU)

[Gunthug]

But easiest revenge kill ever, everyone got aero/adcanine/quickattack

That's true, but by the time you're revenge killing dugtrio it's already done its job (get rid of special wall).

[Thunderprime]

Yeah thats exactly my point. Without dugtrio chansey's popularity went from UU to most used poke

[RysPicz]

Yeah thats exactly my point. Without dugtrio chansey's popularity went from UU to most used poke

Chansey was already used heavily when Dug was still in the tier. Also I bet my money that Metagross is most used poke in OU, after him is Chansey but I belive they both sit at around 50% usage

[KaynineXL]

I'v got a feeling Chansey won't be as high as people think in usage.

 

Kinda curious now to see that usage statistics.

[Thunderprime]

Yeah and dug was a great counter to both most used pokes then. Well my dugtrio was one of the rare adamant cb tho maby thats y I think it wasnt uber. But the jolly set was working like 1 time out of 100 on me and it was vs my dugtrio lol I just feel like its an asshole poke useful to kill the strongest only (like gross chansey heracross)

[BurntZebra]

Yeah thats exactly my point. Without dugtrio chansey's popularity went from UU to most used poke

chansey went from UU to OU as soon as blissey and snorlax were banned

[Thunderprime]

Ha whatever it was not used as much you understand what I mean

[DoubleJ]

While Chansey is an incredible Special Wall with amazing support capabilities, it really lacks some luster in OU and is taken advantage of by GUTS users such as Ursaring, Heracross, and Machamp. This has been said multiple times in this thread. Without a quality Ghost-type to use (Dusclops is essentially the Ghost-type Chansey), these GUTS users have little to fear and can spam their boosted-STABs without much resistance. With this in mind, it is easy to see that Chansey really isn't as broken as we all hope it would be. Sure it is absolute scum and able to counter almost every special attacker, but at the end of the day its lack of offense really hinders much progress outside of stall. These points lead me to think that there is no reason to ban Chansey under the Uber Defense or Uber Support categories.

 

There is though a chance to ban Chansey under the "unhealthy" category, but that would mean that Chansey needs to either have >50% usage or be centralizing within the OU meta. Now Chansey is surely centralizing, but is it too centralizing? That's the question we need to ask of the tier council. We can go on and on about this subject, but in all honesty it is a subjective observation that will simply come down to a vote. For me, Chansey is seen on nearly every team and it is one of those things I have to alter my team to ensure I can maybe break it. Chansey in my opinion also prevents other special walls or Wish passers from seeing much use such as Umbreon or Vaporeon, and this is because Chansey is "too good not to use" when it comes to passing Wishes. Sure there are Ludicolo, Venusaur, and others, but these pokes are mostly being used to patch up Chansey's weaknesses and add to the users chance for a stalled out win. 

 

So for me, I would vote to ban Chansey under the "unhealthy" category and see where the OU tier goes from here. In the end though this is a really difficult decision, but ultimately one that won't break the meta because there are other great special walls ready to be used if Chansey gets the boot. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by DoubleJ

[Thunderprime]

How about we only ban jolly dugtrio and keep the adamant one :p

@jj I noticed that chansey got a looot less use than the pas months maby is just my luck

Edited February 6, 2016 by Thunderprime

[Gunthug]

I'd be all for a test ban on chansey (as is standard with "unhealthiness" bans). I don't think the ban will stick, but it's certainly worth a shot

[Vaeldras]

I'd be all for a test ban on chansey (as is standard with "unhealthiness" bans). I don't think the ban will stick, but it's certainly worth a shot

 

exactly.

since most (if not all?) of our pro ban arguments were centered on it's "unhealthiness" it would be wise to at least test and see what the meta would be without it.

we're not talking of something as blatantly broken as, let's say, salamence

[SpartacusGD]

I think there will always be that champion sp def wall in ou tier and its because of the lack of choices, so having 1 sp def sponge on the top usage is just logical, unlike on the physical defensive side there are alot of choices + cause of swords dance, guts, choice band a core is a must. And imo chansey having that champion sp def spong title is already a very nice thing for the tier cause its basically just support and nothing more plus its a big bait for physical pokes.

[Robofiend]

Ha whatever it was not used as much you understand what I mean

 

But Chansey was still highly used when Dugtrio was around. Something like 30% Chansey usage right before the ban. 

[DoubleJ]

But Chansey was still highly used when Dugtrio was around. Something like 30% Chansey usage right before the ban.

A chansey ban is basically going to result in like a 2 for one imo. Removing chansey will lead to more umbreons and maybe vaps. Potentially more gards but there is a risk for memento to linoone or just cb metagross. Could be interesting but a test ban is optimal just to assess.

[Arimanius]

A chansey ban is basically going to result in like a 2 for one imo. Removing chansey will lead to more umbreons and maybe vaps. Potentially more gards but there is a risk for memento to linoone or just cb metagross. Could be interesting but a test ban is optimal just to assess.

Yeah besides any of these sp def pokes don't have the natural cure cancer which is optimal in my opinion, u can't even stall a fucking chansey unless mean look

[LuisPocho]

That "exploited by physical pokes" argument is getting old.... just pay attention in the next tournament, Im totally sure we will see a lot of chanseys but we wont see so many plays that succesfully exploit chansey´s gap... 

that´s just what happened in OU lately... matchs easily reach 60 turns before a wall is killed because chansey was exploited ... I have seen that people prefer to use weezing, dusclops and venusaur (and chansey) against chansey instead of ursa, heracross, metagross. Why? well I guess its because you really need to scout chansey before exploit it, 50 damage is a problem when any of those pokes reach 200 hp; and even if you have guts your poke gonna have problems to survive if you are toxed or thunder waved too early... 

choice banders hardly come in against chansey (surely cuz protect and counter and the fact that only fighting moves 1 hit ko chansey)

What I have seen is that actually people is having problems to exploit chansey... in fact, you will see a LOT of match being won by chansey stalling late game but not so much games defined by a boosted sweeper (chansey is maybe the best poke for late game, thats boring!)

[OrangeManiac]

Just a little note: Time of the matches is not a factor (or "boringness") what comes to tiering. If the problem is that it offensive play is unviable and you have to use defensive teams against your will to win then in that case actions will be done. But not when people just find a Pokemon "boring".

[Robofiend]

@Luis you're correct from a usage standpoint- set up pokes like ursa are far less common than many top walls.

[Mitsagami1]

Hi, before i say anything i want to note that I'am not pro player (i hope it doesn't matter). But i want to say what makes me mad when i see this pink blob in 99% of  matches i played: 

- fist thing is seismic toss: i mean it's a move that prevent people from using substitute. Just because it's a true damage that ignores resistances (i hope I'am not mistaken). That means that u  need to have more than 200 hp  to even think about that. For example      
other special walls don't have such brillant moves (even with stab). Ok you can say "it's rested by ghosts". Yes it is, but without Gengar... Yes we have Dusclops, but it's not even close to Chansey's bulk. And yes we have other similar move (Nightshade), but it's resisted by any normal type, that  are much more popular than ghosts.

- second thing it'as lack of special based move that can hurt her. I mean Venusaur hurts from ice beam (even without stab), same thing with Umbreon and Vaporeon (we have signal beam and thunderbolt respectively). Without moves like for example Aura Sphere   

or even Focus Blast it can switch against any special sweeper. Someone can say that she hurts from physical based moves. Yea u can force switch with physical sweeper and nothing more. So we left with arena trap trapinch with choice band + superpower in every single team?

- last thing natural cure. Oh pls u cant even tox her. Yes u cant, and it's main reason why i think that pink blob is broken, but P2 is not (yea u thought that i forgot about him). P2 is somehow limited by heal bell, and can be trapped by Umbreon for example.  

                   

[DoubleJ]

At the end of the day, Chansey can only be assessed once we have some fresh usage to stare at it. If the usage isn't 40% or greater, I can only assume that it will stay. 

[RysPicz]

At the end of the day, Chansey can only be assessed once we have some fresh usage to stare at it. If the usage isn't 40% or greater, I can only assume that it will stay.

100% sure it's over 40, ive spectated enough official tournament battles to say that. Only poke I seen more often than Chansey is Metagross.
Thing is, I fear that even if its usage grows dangerously high and quick, nothing will be done with it.

[LuisPocho]

100% sure it's over 40, ive spectated enough official tournament battles to say that. Only poke I seen more often than Chansey is Metagross.
Thing is, I fear that even if its usage grows dangerously high and quick, nothing will be done with it.

you were right, it´s over 40%

 we can safely say now that dugtrio´s ban increased the usage of wallbreakers, but it did increased chansey´s usage too (how much? it used to be 24% or Im wrong?)

Soooo we can asume that ursa, blaziken, etc are not that big problem for teams that have a chansey, so chansey´s usage wont be greatly decreased by wallbreakers (it seems that chansey users are well awared of chansey´s weakness)


another point is the special sweepers usage... some of them are pretty high, but in my opinion (and I think everybody agree) special sweepers have high usage only if they have another roll and their attack roll is totally walled by chansey (almost all the jolteon I saw this year were wish + heal bell; and starmie is an spinner that can kill all the spikers plus natural cure support... and still the physical attackers are far more used)


of course, I´m just reading the usage, I´m not saying the meta is that simple

[RysPicz]

you were right, it´s over 40%

And it's only going to grow over time. Even I have started to use one because with one poke I can cover literally half of the tier and scout choice bands if I wish.
I won't be surprised if it's usage will go over Metagross' soon- on one official Chansey had like 60% usage from what I seen.

Also it's nice to see the discussion going rip because players realise nothing will be done with it anyway and I wonder why this topic is still open.

[BurntZebra]

And it's only going to grow over time. Even I have started to use one because with one poke I can cover literally half of the tier and scout choice bands if I wish.
I won't be surprised if it's usage will go over Metagross' soon- on one official Chansey had like 60% usage from what I seen.

Also it's nice to see the discussion going rip because players realise nothing will be done with it anyway and I wonder why this topic is still open.

I doubt chansey will be more than metagross overall, just because metagross works on all teams and covers so many threats and it has so few counters, while chansey opens the door to huge threats like ursaring, blaziken, machamp, heracross, and others. 

 

No one has really had any convincing argument to banning chansey, as it doesn't fit defensive, offensive, and most likely not unhealthy characteristics. The banning of chansey won't really improve the viability of special attackers, besides maybe magneton, but imo that pokemon doesn't need to be used any more than it already is (and it already beats chansey). Porygon2 shuts down special attackers with its better offensive capabilities, while also preventing physical pokemon from switching in as it has return/tbolt/ice beam/thunder wave/toxic/hp fire potentially to hit them, while chansey only has toxic, thunder wave, and seismic toss. Jolteon will only decrease in viability because porygon2 is an even better counter to it than chansey. Porygon2 and umbreon have a better match up vs starmie and espeon, as they have offense to 2hko both of them, whereas chansey just gets stalled out by starmies recover because its a constant low damage. 

[RysPicz]

No one has really had any convincing argument to banning chansey, as it doesn't fit defensive, offensive, and most likely not unhealthy characteristics.

This is totally subjective perspective on which neither me nor many other players cannot agree with. And here is the problem.

As for me, it suits both defensive and unhealthy characteristics but I don't want to repeat myself and other people who were fighting to get rid of the pink blob.

 

I doubt chansey will be more than metagross overall, just because metagross works on all teams and covers so many threats and it has so few counters, while chansey opens the door to huge threats like ursaring, blaziken, machamp, heracross, and others. 

Name the others. Machamp is out due to his lack of access to SD. Heracross is walled by Weezing which is almost always Chansey's partner. Blaziken gets shit on by Arcanine, Ursaring is legit but look where it's usage is. Another thing is, none of the pokes you listed, can carry a choiceband, as after that it's just an easy scout for Chansey.

 

The banning of chansey won't really improve the viability of special attackers

Are you even serious here?

 

Porygon2 shuts down special attackers with its better offensive capabilities

Oh really? Does it shut down a Charizard under sun? Does it shut down any other weather specially-oriented pokes (Kingdra, Ludi, Exegg)? When was the last time you saw a special weather-based team in OU? I haven't seen any, and the reason is chansey.

 

EDIT:

 

If pory2 would be that good as you describe, it'd be used at least a bit less than Chansey. Usage speaks everything.

Edited February 24, 2016 by RysPicz