[UU Discussion] Typhlosion [Banned to BL1]

[RysPicz]

9 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Is it me or have guys also noticed that most of the people that want Snorlax gone from OU also want Typhlosion to stay in UU and vice versa? It almost seems like we have 2 distinct tiering entities fighting off in each discussion. 

It's just you

 

I want them both gone

Spoiler

and Absol

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and bring back Kanga

Spoiler

I know you want that Kanga gb

Spoiler

your fav poke

 

 

 

 

[Gunthug]

11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Is it me or have guys also noticed that most of the people that want Snorlax gone from OU also want Typhlosion to stay in UU and vice versa? It almost seems like we have 2 distinct tiering entities fighting off in each discussion. 

I don't see how that matters (and I'm an exception lel)

 

mfw @RysPicz and i agree on every current discussion (lax typh absol and kanga)

Edited November 1, 2016 by Gunthug

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

mfw @RysPicz and i agree on every current discussion (lax typh absol and kanga)

Maybe you're not as bad tierlist council member as I thought you are

Spoiler

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[gbwead]

6 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I don't see how that matters (and I'm an exception lel)

It doesn't matter, but I find this interesting xD Since this is not an official tiering discussion, I am being a little bit silly. I apologize.

 

Edit: Nvm I had not seen the edit.

Edited November 1, 2016 by gbwead

[Spaintakula]

I say we bring typh to NU, because apparantly NU mons cant be in UU, that'd solve everything

[KaynineXL]

4 hours ago, gbwead said:

Is it me or have guys also noticed that most of the people that want Snorlax gone from OU also want Typhlosion to stay in UU and vice versa? It almost seems like we have 2 distinct tiering entities fighting off in each discussion. 

Well not for me.

 

I was all for Snorlax staying. For Typhlosion, I still feel like there are too many Pokemon with high usage that can check the common Typh sets. Right now I think Typhlosion needs more testing but I'v not exactly played/watched much UU myself so my opinion might not hold too much value.

[DoubleJ]

Can we back track once more and think about this for just one second? Based on OUR prior bans, Typhlosion easily meets criteria for an offensive uber. For instance...

 

Salamence is an offensive uber that was banned from OU because CB Dragon Claw spam can 2-3 shot everything in the tier. It also has access to Fire Blast + EQ to handle its "checks" in Forretress, Metagross, and Skarmory that can counter this Dragon Claw spam. The only reliable counter to Salamence is Slowbro, a bulky water that has instant recovery. Considering there is only one reliable counter, there is an argument here for centralization which was a factor to consider for this ban.

 

Typhlosion is being discussed as an offensive uber because it can 2-3 shot the entire UU tier, which includes the majority of its "checks". It also has access to Earthquake which can beat its primary "checks" such as Flash Fire pokemon. The only reliable pokemon to stop Typhlosion is Slowking, a bulky water that has instant recovery. Considering there is only one reliable counter, there is an argument here for centralization which is a factor when considering a ban. 

 

There is essentially no difference between Typhlosion in UU and Salamence in OU, and thus on the premise of the prior Salamence OU ban, we should move to ban Typhlosion based on merit. 

 

Add Spikes to the equation along with how easily pressured a special Slowking becomes from physical offense (support), a Typhlosion sweep becomes more and more likely even with just Life Orb Fire Blast. Typhlosion needs to be banned.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 78-93 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 63-75 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[gbwead]

@DoubleJ

No Miltank love, what a shame.

 

You are also forgetting about key differences between Salamence and Typhlosion.

 

Salamence typing and ability allow it to have several switch in opportunities unlike Typhlosion. Salamence raw power is consistent throughout a duel whereas Typhlosion's raw power is not. Eruption and Blaze Fire Blast (which can miss unlike dclaw) are not as accessible as Salamence's Dclaw.

 

OU Sturdy pokemons have no way to threathen Salamence which is not the case when we look at Donphan, Steelix and Aggron in UU.

 

Dclaw is only resisted by Steel types. Eruption/Blaze Fire Blast does no dmg to Flash Fire pokemons, is x4 resisted by Omastar and Kabutops and is checked very well by several water types like Azumarill or Lanturn. Altaria special wall can also check a banded Typhlosion. Diglett scarf should also get a special mention since it actually traps and kills Typhlosion which is not something possible with Salamence.

 

Edit: Salamence gets perfect coverage with only 2 moves whereas Typhlosion need several to get a decent coverage. For this reason, predictions are more difficult for Typhlosion compared to Salamence.

Edited November 1, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@DoubleJ

No Miltank love, what a shame.

I didn't need to mention Miltank because it is 3HKO'd by Typhlosion and just outright beat with Spikes on the field. 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

Quote

 

You are also forgetting about key differences between Salamence and Typhlosion.

 

Salamence typing and ability allow it to have several switch in opportunities unlike Typhlosion. Salamence raw power is consistent throughout a duel whereas Typhlosion's raw power is not. Eruption and Blaze Fire Blast (which can miss unlike dclaw) are not as accessible as Salamence's Dclaw.

How are they not as accessible as Dragon Claw? They are the primary attack that Typhlosion uses and spam is easy because it outright breaks the tier. 

 

Quote

 

OU Sturdy pokemons have no way to threathen Salamence which is not the case when we look at Donphan, Steelix and Aggron in UU.

Spikes support breaks this strategy with ease and thus these pokemon all fall to Eruption/Fire Blast.

 

EDIT: This strategy also just prolongs the match until either of these take damage. Typhlosion isn't at risk of being Pursuit trapped by any of these and thus can simply just swap out, preventing the sweep at that time.

 

Quote

 

Dclaw is only resisted by Steel types. Eruption/Blaze Fire Blast does no dmg to Flash Fire pokemons, is x4 resisted by Omastar and Kabutops and is checked very well by several water types like Azumarill or Lanturn. Altaria special wall can also check a banded Typhlosion. Diglett scarf should also get a special mention since it actually traps and kills Typhlosion which is not something possible with Salamence.

Trapping aside (Scarf Typhlo what?), Omastar and Kabutops fall to one click of HP Grass just like Salamence can remove Forr, Meta, and Skarm with Fire Blast or EQ, maybe even more so since HP Grass is a guaranteed OHKO. A fully SpDef invested Altaria is great against a non-HP Ice Typhlosion, but how does it fair against the rest of the tier when it is used primarily as a Defensive check to Scizor. 

 

All in all @gbwead, you know I'm infamous for wanting to keep offensive monsters in our tiers because I am an offensive player and I usually defend these things to the grave. Typhlosion though, I've seen it dismantle teams with dedicated Special Walls, I've seen it cake walk through offensive teams, and I understand how stupidly centralizing it is. If you see a Specs user, the best offense is simply sacking something in order to get damage on it to prevent Eruption spam. If you see a Life Orb user you use Slowking and pray you can paralyze it before you're warn down by physical offense and Absol Pursuit which is becoming more and more popular in OU with Typhlosion present. Omastar and Kabutops are nice since you can pressure the opponent with Rain Dance if you predict Eruption correctly, but both are easily countered by lord Quagsire and our popular Slowking. 

 

I, like most of the people posting here, believe Typhlosion is outright just too offensive for OU and forces changes that are not healthy. With Typhlosion present, pokemon that were previously top tier threats become broken. For instance, CB Scizor paired with Typhlosion is hell to deal with. You run the 50/50 of having to build for either Scizor or Typhlosion, which puts you at risk to having your defensive core broke by one or the other. Does this make Scizor broken too? No, because we've decided in the past that Scizor isn't banworthy. The presence of Typhlosion just breaks the tier as a whole. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by DoubleJ

[pachima]

14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@DoubleJ

No Miltank love, what a shame.

 

You are also forgetting about key differences between Salamence and Typhlosion.

 

Salamence typing and ability allow it to have several switch in opportunities unlike Typhlosion. Salamence raw power is consistent throughout a duel whereas Typhlosion's raw power is not. Eruption and Blaze Fire Blast (which can miss unlike dclaw) are not as accessible as Salamence's Dclaw.

 

OU Sturdy pokemons have no way to threathen Salamence which is not the case when we look at Donphan, Steelix and Aggron in UU.

 

Dclaw is only resisted by Steel types. Eruption/Blaze Fire Blast does no dmg to Flash Fire pokemons, is x4 resisted by Omastar and Kabutops and is checked very well by several water types like Azumarill or Lanturn. Altaria special wall can also check a banded Typhlosion. Diglett scarf should also get a special mention since it actually traps and kills Typhlosion which is not something possible with Salamence.

You are clearly forgetting that Typhlosion on this thread is a 8 moved lifeorbed specs typhlosion who can sweep entire teams with ease.

[pachima]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I didn't need to mention Miltank because it is 3HKO'd by Typhlosion and just outright beat with Spikes on the field. 

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

How are they not as accessible as Dragon Claw? They are the primary attack that Typhlosion uses and spam is easy because it outright breaks the tier. 

 

Spikes support breaks this strategy with ease and thus these pokemon all fall to Eruption/Fire Blast.

 

EDIT: This strategy also just prolongs the match until either of these take damage. Typhlosion isn't at risk of being Pursuit trapped by any of these and thus can simply just swap out, preventing the sweep at that time.

 

Trapping aside (Scarf Typhlo what?), Omastar and Kabutops fall to one click of HP Grass just like Salamence can remove Forr, Meta, and Skarm with Fire Blast or EQ, maybe even more so since HP Grass is a guaranteed OHKO. A fully SpDef invested Altaria is great against a non-HP Ice Typhlosion, but how does it fair against the rest of the tier when it is used primarily as a Defensive check to Scizor. 

 

All in all @gbwead, you know I'm infamous for wanting to keep offensive monsters in our tiers because I am an offensive player and I usually defend these things to the grave. Typhlosion though, I've seen it dismantle teams with dedicated Special Walls, I've seen it cake walk through offensive teams, and I understand how stupidly centralizing it is. If you see a Specs user, the best offense is simply sacking something in order to get damage on it to prevent Eruption spam. If you see a Life Orb user you use Slowking and pray you can paralyze it before you're warn down by physical offense and Absol Pursuit which is becoming more and more popular in OU with Typhlosion present. Omastar and Kabutops are nice since you can pressure the opponent with Rain Dance if you predict Eruption correctly, but both are easily countered by lord Quagsire and our popular Slowking. 

 

I, like most of the people posting here, believe Typhlosion is outright just too offensive for OU and forces changes that are not healthy. With Typhlosion present, pokemon that were previously top tier threats become broken. For instance, CB Scizor paired with Typhlosion is hell to deal with. You run the 50/50 of having to build for either Scizor or Typhlosion, which puts you at risk to having your defensive core broke by one or the other. Does this make Scizor broken too? No, because we've decided in the past that Scizor isn't banworthy. The presence of Typhlosion just breaks the tier as a whole. 

Just one little thing: The guy who is against Typhlo can also use spikes to hurt the same. Again, don´t use arguments to justify one thing when the same argument can be used both sides.

[DoubleJ]

6 minutes ago, pachima said:

Just one little thing: The guy who is against Typhlo can also use spikes to hurt the same. Again, don´t use arguments to justify one thing when the same argument can be used both sides.

There is a key difference between how Spikes are played though: With Spikes on the field, Typhlosion has the benefit of waiting to come in until you've removed those Spikes. A Typhlosion check doesn't have that privilege because it HAS to switch in on Typhlosion regardless of there being Spikes on the field or not. 

 

EDIT: Actually, what you've written below is false. I've provided two sets in my argument: Life Orb mixed Typhlosion and Specs Mixed Typhlosion which differ by one move (Eruption). 

 

7 minutes ago, pachima said:

You are clearly forgetting that Typhlosion on this thread is a 8 moved lifeorbed specs typhlosion who can sweep entire teams with ease.

Edited November 1, 2016 by DoubleJ

[pachima]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

There is a key difference between how Spikes are played though: With Spikes on the field, Typhlosion has the benefit of waiting to come in until you've removed those Spikes. A Typhlosion check doesn't have that privilege because it HAS to switch in on Typhlosion regardless of there being Spikes on the field or not. 

You made it sound easier than it is. In fact, the opponent can also play accordingly and force you to play typhlo when spikes are up. Also, its true a wall HAS to switch in on typhlo but thats the play you make. What if the opponent makes a scenario where u can only sweep with typhlo? In this case, or u sacrifice some precious Health or try to use something else which is clearly inferior.

[gbwead]

In all cases, UU has some of the best spinners of PokeMMO, so the spikes arguments are not that strong.

Edited November 1, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

9 minutes ago, pachima said:

You made it sound easier than it is. In fact, the opponent can also play accordingly and force you to play typhlo when spikes are up. Also, its true a wall HAS to switch in on typhlo but thats the play you make. What if the opponent makes a scenario where u can only sweep with typhlo? In this case, or u sacrifice some precious Health or try to use something else which is clearly inferior.

Then we have Fire Blast which is base 120 power and can still 2-3HKO the majority of the tier with Specs or Life Orb. While yes, UU does have the best and most viable Spinners in PokeMMO, this doesn't necessarily cripple Typhlosion. It just means that it exchanges a base 150 power move for a base 120 power move, but check this! A Typhlosion that comes in on 3 layers of Spikes still has an Eruption that is more powerful than Fire blast (150 to 141 to 132 to 123).

 

EDIT: 

7 minutes ago, gbwead said:

In all cases, UU has some of the best spinners of PokeMMO, so the spikes arguments are not that strong.

 

And your argument to keep Typhlosion in UU really isn't that strong either, but I digress. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by DoubleJ

[gbwead]

36 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

And your argument to keep Typhlosion in UU really isn't that strong either, but I digress. 

You are really trying to be cute, aren't you? If you taunt people, you can't really blame them for showing disdain towards you, but I digress ...

 

Typhlosion is a new UU threat. The tier isn't going to restructure over night and players will not adapt immediatly. The same thing happened when Miltank Curse came down and every one wanted it ban instantly. Or when Houndoom got banned and people started crying about Exeggutor being broken. Hypothetically, the same thing would have most likely happenned if Manectric was OU and went down to UU. People would not be prepared to handle Manectric immediatly. 

 

Last year, Scizor got banned because of Pursuit, but also because the only known counter at the time was Slowking. It turns out Scizor had way more counters like Nidoqueen and Altaria. Looking back, I think it is pretty obvious that the ban was a mistake. At first, Typhlosion had no counter beside Miltank. Slowking, the laughable counter, has shown recently that it is solid. What else could there be out there? Defensive Rapidash? I could not agree more ^^

Typhlosion breaking dedicated special walls is not a bad thing as long as Typhlosion has exploitable flaws which is the case giving how difficult it is for Typhlosion to come in play. I have seen some Typhlosion payer lose to stall, balance and offensive teams. For that reason, I am not convinced that Typhlosion is as broken as you make it out to be. Its win rate ratio might be impressive, but we are no way near Snorlax' win rate in OU imo.

 

55 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

With Typhlosion present, pokemon that were previously top tier threats become broken. For instance, CB Scizor paired with Typhlosion is hell to deal with. You run the 50/50 of having to build for either Scizor or Typhlosion, which puts you at risk to having your defensive core broke by one or the other. Does this make Scizor broken too? No, because we've decided in the past that Scizor isn't banworthy. The presence of Typhlosion just breaks the tier as a whole. 

I disagree with most of what you said so far, but this caught my attention more than the rest. Why is it difficult to stop CB Scizor paired with Typhlosion? Any combination of Slowking/Miltank + Nioqueen/Altaria/Vileplume/Slowking/Meganium is going to stop that with ease. These pokemons have various checks and I don't see why these checks would not be compatible with one another. As for Typhlosion's presence breaking the tier, I agree with that statement, but that doesn't mean Typhlosion's presence will prevent the tier from healing. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by gbwead

[pachima]

Bring back sceptile, and ban Typhlo. ez

Either way, we need to keep some offensive pressure to this trump wall tier.

EDIT; Give Typhlo more time, I understand the reasons for its ban, but hey! Its still too soon to judge something with 100% certainty.

Edited November 1, 2016 by pachima

[Laz]

I think we need to drop swampert, vaporeon and umbreon in UU to create more balance, or just make rapidash UU because it stops typhlosion so ez

 

[gbwead]

I have also seen a lot of people push for the ban by comparing Typhlosion's characteristics to Sceptile's. However, since Sceptile took 5 month before getting ban, it is pretty obvious that, if Typhlosion shares the same banworthy characteristics as Sceptile's, it will take a lot of time to prove that. 

[pachima]

1 minute ago, Lazaro23 said:

I think we need to drop swampert, vaporeon and umbreon in UU to create more balance, or just make rapidash UU because it stops typhlosion so ez

 

Idk if joking or not, but I think everyone disregarding defensive rapidash is just poop.

A good player can effectively use a gimmick bad pokemon and work around it as if it was a viable standard pokemon.

Also, you have no idea how much surprise factor works well. 

If I was to bring a kabutops and you used quagsire to wall it easy just to eat a giga drain on your face, you would be damn fucked.

You can say kabutops mixed is bad, or not as close as good to standard one, but please Pokemmo is far from linear, and a single variable out of the equation (like giga drain kabutops) can rekt you pretty hard.

Defensive rapidash is bad? Of course is not as good as standard one, but it deffinitely has some niche over several mons which makes it viable under some circunstances, most of the time created by the player itself.

Sry to pick up yourself, but im legit tired about this disregard for defensive rapidash. Could reply to anyone else, sorry.

Back to the topic. Swampert and vapo might be too much for UU to handle but umbreon, meh. Could be dropped for a test I guess.

[Laz]

4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I have also seen a lot of people push for the ban by comparing Typhlosion's characteristics to Sceptile's. However, since Sceptile took 5 month before getting ban, it is pretty obvious that, if Typhlosion shares the same banworthy characteristics as Sceptile's, it will take a lot of time to prove that. 

ye, ppl need to be patient nowadays, they can't even wait 4-5 months much shame

 

3 minutes ago, pachima said:

Idk if joking or not, but I think everyone disregarding defensive rapidash is just poop.

A good player can effectively use a gimmick bad pokemon and work around it as if it was a viable standard pokemon.

Also, you have no idea how much surprise factor works well. 

If I was to bring a kabutops and you used quagsire to wall it easy just to eat a giga drain on your face, you would be damn fucked.

You can say kabutops mixed is bad, or not as close as good to standard one, but please Pokemmo is far from linear, and a single variable out of the equation (like giga drain kabutops) can rekt you pretty hard.

Defensive rapidash is bad? Of course is not as good as standard one, but it deffinitely has some niche over several mons which makes it viable under some circunstances, most of the time created by the player itself.

Sry to pick up yourself, but im legit tired about this disregard for defensive rapidash. Could reply to anyone else, sorry.

Back to the topic. Swampert and vapo might be too much for UU to handle but umbreon, meh. Could be dropped for a test I guess.

ye agreed, mixed kabutops with giga drain is good, i've been thinking about rest sleep waterfall giga kabutops to stop typh, will work really good since fire is really weak against rock/water, and yet people say we can't stop typh.

[BlackJovi]

1 hour ago, Lazaro23 said:

ye, ppl need to be patient nowadays, they can't even wait 4-5 months much shame

 

ye agreed, mixed kabutops with giga drain is good, i've been thinking about rest sleep waterfall giga kabutops to stop typh, will work really good since fire is really weak against rock/water, and yet people say we can't stop typh.

10/10 my dude 

[DoubleJ]

2 hours ago, gbwead said:

I have also seen a lot of people push for the ban by comparing Typhlosion's characteristics to Sceptile's. However, since Sceptile took 5 month before getting ban, it is pretty obvious that, if Typhlosion shares the same banworthy characteristics as Sceptile's, it will take a lot of time to prove that. 

At least we have community discussion this time around. 

 

Also to tackle another subject, while some "gimmicks" can become standard most gimmicks have significant downfalls which are easily abused in the tier. Resttalk Gigafall Kabu sounds cool, and can double as a swellow check but, it can only act to stall altaria (dd when?), slowking is a free switch in, and quag still beats it unless it has some insane bulk (on phone, can't calc right now).

 

I love creativity though and as said surprise can go a long way in a match, but once a gimmick is figured out watch yourself. 

[Maelstrom]

3 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:

I think we need to drop swampert, vaporeon and umbreon in UU to create more balance, or just make rapidash UU because it stops typhlosion so ez

 

Sorry fot the off topic question but NUs can't be used on higher tiers?

[LifeStyle]

10 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Sorry fot the off topic question but NUs can't be used on higher tiers?

they can