[UU Discussion] Typhlosion [Banned to BL1]

[gbwead]

Just now, DoubleJ said:

First tournament? There have been community combat tournaments going on weekly, as well as the psl

Show me a duel where a player lost because he/she prepared for Typhlosion. That imo would be a first step to demonstrate that Typhlosion could indeed be unhealthy.

[DoubleJ]

Just now, gbwead said:

Show me a duel where a player lost because he/she prepared for Typhlosion. That imo would be a first step to demonstrate that Typhlosion could indeed be unhealthy.

Isn't that the role of the tier council to investigate matters or does the community have to do everything outside  of lifting your hand up to vote?

[gbwead]

3 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Isn't that the role of the tier council to investigate matters or does the community have to do everything outside  of lifting your hand up to vote?

Wtf is the point of this joke thread then. I actually watch UU duels and I don't see Typhlosion as a problem. You claim that it is a problem, but you have no proof. What am I suppose to do with that? 

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

Wtf is the point of this joke thread then. I actually watch UU duels and I don't see Typhlosion as a problem. You claim that it is a problem, but you have no proof. What am I suppose to do with that? 

Can I ask why you've become such a hostile member of the tier council? I remember you as being more reasonable and willing to listen to others, rather than oppose every question or suggestion that comes your way. 

 

I'll find you some proof mate. 

[DaftCoolio]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Wtf is the point of this joke thread then. I actually watch UU duels and I don't see Typhlosion as a problem. You claim that it is a problem, but you have no proof. What am I suppose to do with that? 

i though his " Don't be stupid. Ban it." argument was pretty persuasive 

[gbwead]

12 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Can I ask why you've become such a hostile member of the tier council? I remember you as being more reasonable and willing to listen to others, rather than oppose every question or suggestion that comes your way. 

 

I'll find you some proof mate. 

I am just unwilling to entertain this circus from an old player like yourself that knows exactly what the tiering policies are all about. You know Typhlosion is not going to be banned for being unhealthy after such little time of testing. I find it very irritating that you pressure the council of doing things they shouldn't do when you know we shouldn't.

 

Thank you. I am searching as well.

Edited October 23, 2016 by gbwead

[DoubleJ]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I am just unwilling to entertain this circus from an old player like yourself that knows exactly what the tiering policies are all about. You know Typhlosion is not going to be banned for being unhealthy after such little time of testing. I find it very irritating that you pressure the council of doing things they shouldn't do when you know we shouldn't.

 

Thank you. I am searching as well.

But it hasn't just been this gb, there has been recurrences of your disdain in nearly every tiering thread over the past few months. 

 

And to recall, sceptile was banned without a formal discussion so I'm not exactly sure what policies still stand. 

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

But it hasn't just been this gb, there has been recurrences of your disdain in nearly every tiering thread over the past few months. 

 

And to recall, sceptile was banned without a formal discussion so I'm not exactly sure what policies still stand. 

I try to stay open minded - especially with new players - but, if I am disdainful, I apologize. 

[Senile]

40 minutes ago, gbwead said:

A Typhlosion with Life Orb most likely doesn't play Eruption which means most standard walls should stop it. A banded Typhlosion against Flash Fire mons can be a double edge sword.

y'all need to stop sleeping on the power of a Typhlosion without Eruption.

 

Here's some perspective:

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 84-100 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover

252+ SpA Life Orb Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 88-105 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Blaze LO Fire Blast is actually stronger than Choice Specs Max HP Eruption. (Also it can burn! (and also miss sometimes but just don't get unlucky))

 

Typhlosion isn't suddenly super shitty without Eruption. It's not as if anything other than Specs/Scarf Eruption suddenly makes it unviable. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it'd still broken without Eruption. ACTUALLY, from the way the Typhlosion discussions seem to have panned out, I'm actually convinced it'd be banned faster if it didn't have Eruption. Maybe then people would focus on the things it has going for it other than a singular, strong STAB move it can just kind of spam. Because at the end of the day, Eruption's base power isn't really too far off from Fire Blast to begin with; 150 vs 120 is a pretty big leap, yeah, but it's not some insanely crazy leap, even if it does nab some extra 2HKO's/KO's non-Blaze Fire Blast just can't. After just 1 layer of Spikes, Eruption drops to roughly ~130 BP. With 2 layers, it's down to 123 and obviously with >3 it dips down to below Fire Blast.

 

While we're on the topic of Spikes, some things (see: literally Miltank) can just straight up die to 2 Eruptions after 1 layer of Spikes, and everything else that comes in (bar a correctly predicted Flash Fire Pokemon) certainly doesn't appreciate it. Actually, pretty much every answer to Typhlosion's fire spam other than Flash Fire really has to stay as healthy as possible, because otherwise, they're just gonna get outsped and demolished regardless. A lot of the "counters" to it really work a lot better as Checks, because after one switchin they're pretty crippled, but they can still come in safely on a revenge kill.

 

Even Sp.Def Slowking, which can consistently come in and just beat it out with Slack Off, honestly isn't even a great answer to it. For one, you're forced to keep Slowking as pristine as humanly possible, lest it be a bit too weakened and Typhlosion comes out, just demolishing it regardless. Not only does this mean you kind of have to keep Slowking pocketed specifically for Typhlosion, so you can't use it for other threats, but every time you bring it in on Typhlosion you're forced to use Slack Off. If you don't use Slack Off, Slowking can't come in on Typhlosion anymore. So, this effectively means Eruption -> Hit Slowking switchin, Typhlosion switches out and Slowking Slacks Off to full HP. Yeah, you've forced out Typhlosion, but now you're at a deficit, your opponent has the initiative and barring Spikes, you haven't actually done much of anything to Typhlosion itself, or the opponent in general in this exchange. Forcing Typhlosion out is good, since getting a clean switchin to Typhlosion to begin with was probably already a bit of a hassle for the opponent to begin with, but even then you're not exactly in a good spot.

 

This actually brings me to my final point; What exactly is the argument being presented that Typhlosion isn't actually that good? That it has some counters? You'd have to be pretty ridiculously broken to have literally no counters whatsoever, there are very few pokemon that have ever fit that description of offensive uber so perfectly. As far as I can tell, Typhlosion is a pokemon that necessitates, at a minimum, either massively outplaying your a opponent, or 1 DEDICATED, focused counter specifically made and placed to deal with it (and the reason I emphasize this is because of how dedicated this counter must be; if you get too much chip damage on that counter, it ceases to be a counter, so it really does need to be dedicated specifically to Typhlosion), and ideally, severally tertiary checks just in case everything goes to absolute shit. It's like a mini-Mega Lucario; It's fast enough to outspeed a lot of attackers even without a Scarf, making it hard to offensively check, especially since it's a decent scarfer on it's own. It hits hard enough to be VERY hard to counter, meaning that answering it defensively, although there are options, requires a lot of dedication to keep it at bay. It's only real weakness is that it has a hard time coming in, especially if you're using Eruption, but like I said before, it doesn't need to rely on Eruption to be viable. Granted, even without Eruption, it doesn't exactly have a ton of super free switchins, but it does get more options at that point, especially since getting to Blaze can make it even more threatening than Specs Eruption.

 

So, really, I don't understand the argument. Yes, Typhlosion has some answers and is hard to switchin. Is that really all it takes to not be offensively uber? The answers exist, but they're very narrow in scope (ie, they're usually limited to only dealing with Typhlosion, even if they can serve roles other than that they usually have to dedicate themselves to fire enchilada), and even then aren't necessarily perfectly reliable. Typhlosion isn't perfect, but since when has any banned pokemon been perfect?

 

Other than Wobbuffet, he is a work of art. Greatest pokemon 10/10.

also honestly, all the talk of "oh well we can't just ban it, that'd be AGAINST THE RULES" kind of rubs me the wrong way, because the past few UU decisions have violated the rules being talked about. Sceptile's a pretty blatant offender, literally skipping over both the Quick Ban Procedure AND the standard ban procedure, entirely. Just 100% skipping over it. The Feraligatr quickban also breaks the exact same rules, but at least it wasn't in UU beforehand, so it wasn't anywhere near as blatant. At least, it wouldn't have been as blatant, if it weren't for the fact that Typhlosion was moved down to UU with no problem, and now that people want it quickbanned they're being told "oh no we can't quickban it this fast, 

it'd be breaking the rules". well fucking yeah it would be but i mean it literally didn't stop you before so ???

 

While we're on that topic, suspect testing a pokemon as you move down a pokemon which you should be well aware will quickly become a HUGE threat, potentially even banworthy (see: all the posts) doesn't make any sense to me. It's not technically against the rules, but it doesn't make sense.

 

BUT WHAT IS AGAINST THE RULES IS THAT THERE ISN'T A KANGASKHAN DISCUSSION THREAD BUT THERE'S SUPPOSED TO BE SO I GUESS THERE'S THAT.

for discussion's sake, I'm not against the rules being adjusted/changed if they're deemed outdated, or the council feels they don't need to follow them precisely to the letter anymore. With that being said, it gets me more than a little rustled to see people's requests shot down with "naw fam look at the rules" when the rules aren't being followed whatsoever; Either change the rules and give a legitimate reason, or actually follow the rules in the first place so it's a legitimate excuse. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I should probably have moved these last 2 spoilers to somewhere other than this thread but yknow.

  

[DoubleJ]

^ slow claps

 

=)

[Laz]

^^ The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried.

[razimove]

I was amused when he went to UU, you basically gave him snorlax treatment, and made him a stample to any UU team. In OU he was a monster already... and you guys made him UU.

[gbwead]

@Senile

 

I am not saying that Typhlosion is super shitty without Eruption. However, when I see a Life Ball Typhlosion with high health, I know that a standard wall like Clefable/Cradily has actually a shot at switching on Typhlosion unlike spec Eruption. If these walls have taken no prior dmg, they should be able to stop Typhlosion. As for Blaze Fire Blast, I agree that it is a bigger threat than Spec Eruption, but Typhlosion is not going to get in Blaze range that easily and not at 0 cost. A Typhlosion in Blaze range could easily end up in an impossible situation if it is forced to switch out when spikes are on the field.

 

8 hours ago, Senile said:

While we're on the topic of Spikes, some things (see: literally Miltank) can just straight up die to 2 Eruptions after 1 layer of Spikes

This is acctually untrue:
+1 252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Miltank: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Perhaps, you mean Fire Blast Blaze Life Ball instead of Eruption. 

 

Prior dmg is a big problem for more than just Typhlosion's checks. Most of Crawdaunt counters are at risk of dying if they have taken prior dmg. The same argument applies for Choice Spec Manectric.

 

The fact that Typhlosion has very few switch in opportunities - even for the Fire Blast set - is a big issue imo. Nidoking has been UU for quite some time and its wallbreaking potential is super threathening. However, Nidoking has no switch in. Nothing and that limits it tremendously. I think the same logic can somewhat apply to Typhlosion as well. The main argument for Rhydon not fitting Offensive Uber characteristics was that Rhydon had no switch ins. However, Rhydon had no viable counters unlike Typhlosion that have 2 big counters in Calm Slowking and Careful Miltank, as well as several checks like Lanturn. 

 

8 hours ago, Senile said:

You'd have to be pretty ridiculously broken to have literally no counters whatsoever, there are very few pokemon that have ever fit that description of offensive uber so perfectly.

I quite disagree with that statement. Historically, of all the BL pokemons that we had, there is a fairly good amount that have 0 viable UU counter: Medicham, Ursaring, Machamp, Tauros, Slaking, Marowak, Rhydon and even to some lesser degree Hariyama/Dodrio/Feraligatr have/had 0 UU counter.

The list of BL pokemons that fit offensive uber characteristics despite having some counters in UU is quite shorter: Linoone, Sceptile, Charizard, maybe others that I have forgotten.

 

Calm Slowking is not useless against the rest of the UU tier and can actually take decent dmg before having to Slack Off:

• +1 252 SpA Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 72-86 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- 92.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  Against Spec Typhlosion HP Grass, Calm Slowking can take up to 21% before using Slack Off.
• 252 SpA Life Orb Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 62-74 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  Against Life Ball Typhlosion HP Grass, Calm Slowking can take up to 33% before using Slack Off.

 

I don't have complete control on which tiering policies will be respected and which will not. As a council member, the only thing I can do is try to update the outdated policies and respect all active policies. There is no rule against quick banning Typhlosion. However, it is incredibly stupid to push for an unhealthy quick ban since the pokemon has not been properly tested yet. Pushing for an offense uber quick ban is fine tho.

 

1 hour ago, redspawn said:

I was amused when he went to UU, you basically gave him snorlax treatment, and made him a stample to any UU team. In OU he was a monster already... and you guys made him UU.

The reason Typhlosion was moved down is because no one was using it in OU. It had very low usage. It was probably not the OU monster you make it out to be.

 

 

One week ago, OrangeManiac makes a post in the UU tier request thread where he claims that UU is a meta is unkind to offensive teams and a lot of people agree with him. If that is indeed the case, why are so many of you in a hurry to ban Typhlosion? This wallbreaker/sweeper is incredibly strong, but that doesn't make it inherently broken. Even though most people have not bred a Typhlosion yet, some people do have a Typhlosion and we haven't seen Typhlosion shine during UU tournaments so far (if I am wrong about that please show me). There is a very good chance Typhlosion doesn't belong in UU, but there is no certainty imo at this point.

 

As of now, I am unwilling to ban Typhlosion until I see that the dedication required to counter Typhlosion is a detriment to one's winning condition.

 

Edit: I am also surprised few people - or maybe no one - have mentionned Tpunch CB Typhlosion so far since it is to my knowledge the only set that can break Calm Slowking. I'm not sure such a set is viable tho.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by gbwead

[YettoDie]

14 minutes ago, gbwead said:

we haven't seen Typhlosion shine during UU tournaments so far (if I am wrong about that please show me). There is a very good chance Typhlosion doesn't belong in UU, but this is not a 0 chance.

 

As of now, I am unwilling to ban Typhlosion until I see that the dedication required to counter Typhlosion is a detriment to one's winning condition.

Community Combat UU #1

Matches of BlueBreath

[gbwead]

53 minutes ago, YettoDie said:

Community Combat UU #1

Matches of BlueBreath

I just finished watching all rounds beside round 1. Typhlosion didn't have much of an impact on these duels. The opponents were not really prepared for Typhlosion, but that is not really important since Typhlosion was not a deciding factor in any way. 

 

BlueBreath vs Aftershocker was somewhat interesting. However, there was some bad gameplays and unfortunate rolls on Aftershocker's part. Typhlosion was also not as impactful as Haunter or Aggron that were truly the MVPs of BlueBreath's team in that duel.

Edited October 23, 2016 by gbwead

[Mike]

I mean let's be honest here, Miltank does an alright job at walling Typhlosion, Grumpig does pretty alright aswell. And ofcourse Slowking. But keeping it healthy 100% of the game is nearly impossible. Also isn't this what you people call centralizing? Having to prepare just for 1 pokemon so it doesn't sweep a team? But it's not just that Typhlosion rips through teams. It is also that people can safely sac something and a scarf Typhlosion can come in and do huge damage. It's revenge killing role is insane and it does it really well. Hit and run will you. I mean look at last night's semi-final. Sweet abused the fuck out of that thing. Cleared up 4 mons with just switching in and out at the end of the game because no one could take an eruption. People hold back on Typhlosion untill the end of the game when most mons are damaged and can clear up, or just use it as revenge killer. Another thing I have seen is just paralyze everything, lower most mons a bit and throw in specs Typhlosion to clean everything up. It's really good, like really really good. It's too good.

Edited October 23, 2016 by TheChampionMike

[NikhilR]

3 hours ago, gbwead said:

@Senile

 

The fact that Typhlosion has very few switch in opportunities - even for the Fire Blast set - is a big issue imo. Nidoking has been UU for quite some time and its wallbreaking potential is super threathening. However, Nidoking has no switch in. Nothing and that limits it tremendously. I think the same logic can somewhat apply to Typhlosion as well. The main argument for Rhydon not fitting Offensive Uber characteristics was that Rhydon had no switch ins. However, Rhydon had no viable counters unlike Typhlosion that have 2 big counters in Calm Slowking and Careful Miltank, as well as several checks like Lanturn. 

 

 

HP Grass Nidokings are kind of non existent, so Quagsire can wall it. 

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

HP Grass Nidokings are kind of non existent, so Quagsire can wall it. 

I mean't that Nidoking can't really switch on anything. it is far from easy to find opening for Nidoking to switch in.

Edited October 23, 2016 by gbwead

[NikhilR]

3 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I mean't that Nidoking can't really switch on anything. it is far from easy to find opening for Nidoking to switch in.

You're right about that part, but most people find it easy to switch in their threats when the opposing pokemon is forced to use a self recovery move, which is exactly what Typhlosion does. Slowking can no doubt tank that eruption, but it is forced to slack off while the typhlosion user is free to send in something more threatening. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by NikhilR

[Draekyn]

Sigh, we need more Senile

[CCMayhem]

I am not sure if this possible, but UU was kinda in desperate need of some fire diversity since the only real issue here is Specs/Scarf+ Eruption w/ Stab and blaze. Why not just ban the move Eruption on Typhlosion in the tier?. Would be sad if my SunnyD Typhlosion was banished to OU again

Edited October 23, 2016 by CCMayhem

[Toast]

after playing in my first uu tourney after awhile, i can honestly say typhlosion is the biggest pain in the ass ever. been pretty much winning the whole game until typhlosion came in late game and absolutely destroyed the rest of my team. i ran clef + slowking (round 2), but typhlosion didn't come out until late in the game. i honestly don't think its reasonable to say "oh you should've kept them healthy the whole game" if typhlosion wasn't even sent out yet. and to say "you shouldve kept it healthy the whole game because of typhlosion" just shows how strong it is. tbh slowking + clef or whatever gets nailed by absol anyways so jajajaja teambuilding op

[Rigamorty]

7 minutes ago, Toast said:

after playing in my first uu tourney after awhile, i can honestly say typhlosion is the biggest pain in the ass ever. been pretty much winning the whole game until typhlosion came in late game and absolutely destroyed the rest of my team. i ran clef + slowking (round 2), but typhlosion didn't come out until late in the game. i honestly don't think its reasonable to say "oh you should've kept them healthy the whole game" if typhlosion wasn't even sent out yet. and to say "you shouldve kept it healthy the whole game because of typhlosion" just shows how strong it is. tbh slowking + clef or whatever gets nailed by absol anyways so jajajaja teambuilding op

Reminds me a lot of Heracross in OU.

 

Heracross makes me hate the shit out of teambuilding in OU.

[Mike]

14 minutes ago, Rigamorty said:

Reminds me a lot of Heracross in OU.

 

Heracross makes me hate the shit out of teambuilding in OU.

Arcanine, Dusclops, Weezing, Gyarados do fairly well vs it. 

 

Anyway I think it's pretty obvious how obnoxious and centralizing Typhlosion is from this official alone.

Edited October 23, 2016 by TheChampionMike

[SweeTforU]

Hmm today I tried to sweep with typhlosion and tenta stopped my sweep so ban tenta please ty

Edited October 23, 2016 by SweeTforU
King setup