notmudkip0 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 1 minute ago, ykh9108 said: Where is Rotom??? Rotom would be hard to tell since its different forms have different typing Just now, Rigamorty said: @Darkshade is actually satan and decided we won't be getting it until Sinnoh becomes a thing. ;_;7 When was this? Link to comment
ykh9108 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rigamorty said: @Darkshade is actually satan and decided we won't be getting it until Sinnoh becomes a thing. ;_;7 WOW... I am embarrassed. Link to comment
Darkshade Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, notmudkip0 said: When was this? In an internal development discussion, and then within a discussion with the Tier Council when helping put together temporary tiers. 4 minutes ago, Rigamorty said: @Darkshade is actually satan and decided we won't be getting it until Sinnoh becomes a thing. ;_;7 Gunthug, NikhilR, Crimar and 6 others 9 Link to comment
notmudkip0 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Darkshade said: In an internal development discussion, and then within a discussion with the Tier Council when helping put together temporary tiers. Gotta push an update but fuck with the comp scene more, thanks. axx 1 Link to comment
suigin Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 You only get one Rotom from an NPC trade, this is a prize with fixed IVs and neutral nature and it cannot be traded or re-breeded. That means if it gets scouted in a tournament, people know exactly which form and which set you have on it and they can prepare for it. Sure you can go to the place where you change its forms and then re-EV it with berries and vitamins and then finally change its moves between matches but I can predict that not being very cost effective. As for it not appearing in the wild then yeah Satan. gbwead 1 Link to comment
ykh9108 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) There is no Zoroark! :D Edited September 22, 2017 by ykh9108 Link to comment
gbwead Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Introducing a new tier like RU is the worst thing that could happen to this game. It is imperative to build a strong player base around the few tiers we currently have instead of dividing the player base among multiple tiers. Players that wish to compete won't stay long if they have no one to compete against. Link to comment
ykh9108 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Wait..... Wobbuffet is UBERS??? Link to comment
Senile Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Rigamorty said: so, this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I highly disagree with like, a lot of this list. I'd go into UU/NU, but honestly, I barely looked at them because if the OU list is fucked up, it's basically guaranteed the lower tiers will similarly look twisted so there's not really much of a point. so, normally, I'd go into this huge tangent about how deciding pre-emptively what will be in what tiers to determine temporary tiers is dumb and an absurdly bad idea (Because, yes, I think it is), but it obviously sounds like the matter is out of your hands, so that's kind of pointless. So, realizing that, I would naturally go indepth onto which ones I disagree with, giving reasons and explanations for each individual one, but I realize that would be equally pointless. Why? Because it sounds like all of this was discussed internally, with internal information about what will and won't be in the update that most people (and certainly not me, since it's not like I've been keeping up with the content) know about, so there's a pretty good chance that some (but probably not all, just based on the quantity of disagreements) of my criticisms of the list won't really be applicable, because of information I straight up just don't know. I really don't understand how anyone not on the tier council could provide substantial critique this list. As of right now, what do I know? Uhhhh, I know that the pokemon on the lists are almost definitely coming out, it's a safe bet that weather starters won't have permanent weather because Swift Swimmers are legal (also it'd be dumb), it's gen 5-ish, most if not all legendaries aren't coming, and SOME hidden abilities are being released, but I don't know which ones, although I can infer some based on the list. I dunno, maybe there's more information out than these tier lists and the bit I know/can infer, and I just don't know it because I haven't been paying much attention, but from the responses in this thread it seems most all of this information is internal, and just having these lists isn't very helpful. With that being said, I'm going to cross out and critique the lists with some minor comments as to why I'm suggesting they be changed, since going in-depth will probably be wrong in some minor, or even major details. The point of the list is maybe you guys can "internally" re-analyze or look at some of the ones I suggest, I wouldn't recommend anyone point-by-point try and refute them, because some of it's probably wrong, but hey, you can't win them all. Also, one last note; I am assuming the reason most of the pokemon are in the tier they're in is because you're being reaaaaally conservative, based on some of the pokemon I'm seeing. I'm guessing a good amount of these pokemon you put in OU aren't really necessarily pokemon you guys think are OU, but BL as well. and well boo that, lame af cmon guys. Any ones I striked through I think should definitely be moved. Anyway, here you go: 2 hours ago, Rigamorty said: Here are the tiers as we have them now for when the update hits. If there's anyone who sees something that we may have missed that seems offsetting let us know. Things we're currently talking about are Cloyster from UU to OU, Gigalith from OU to UU, and Darmanitan from UU to OU. OU Hide contents Aerodactyl Why is this even here? I'm guessing this was dumped here because of his use in 4th gen OU as a super-speedy Stealth Rock + Taunt user and lead. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure you're adding team preview, and honestly, a 5th gen meta with team preview and weather teams literally has no place for this thing in OU. It still kind of has a niche, but I'd eat my hat if it's ACTUALLY OU. I guess it gets a sp.def boost from sandstorm that Tyranitar provides, but it's not like sand teams are short on Stealth Rocks or offensive pokemon. Unless we're getting Mega Aero, this thing needs to be dumped to UU, if not lower. Also, are we getting Gen 6 Defog? If so, then yeah, this definitely needs to GTFO of here. Down to UU. Azumarill Something something triggered. I made some long ass post about why Gen 5 Azumarill is omega overhyped, and it should be no surprise at all that I don't think it belongs in OU. I don't want to search out the post, but the long and short of it is Rain has way better options, and it's abilities without rain are unimpressive. The best argument I could see is that it's BL, not really intended to be OU by usage, since it should have Belly Drum + Aqua Jet now, which it didn't in Gen 5. With that being said, I still think it should it be given an immediate chance in UU, since once again, I'd eat my hat if it was OU by usage. Really don't think this belongs here unless we're covertly getting fairy types dumped on us. Or Gen 6 Knock Off. That would do it too. But I doubt that. Down to UU. Bisharp Same story reskinned. Also, something I forgot to mention earlier; We're still doing the Gen 5 Steel resistances, right? Anyway, unless we're getting Knock Off I don't think this has any place in OU. Maybe you guys are putting in good-Defog, and it's cautiously being put up here because of Defiant boosts? But not having the Lati's or Fairies to switch in on really hurts it, and even with a boost, not having an incredibly spammable STAB like Knock Off to throw around hurts. Not to mention that with Steel resisting dark and no Knock Off, a prime Defogger to come in on in OU, Skarmory, doesn't really care much about it. What's the best case scenario? Come in, get a boost, Low Kick for some damage at +2? You can't really Choice Band this thing without knock off, so you'll get some decent damage in, but honestly, you haven't done any outrageous damage, and they still got rid of your hazards when they can just phase you. Down to UU. Blaziken ???. Sorry, I actually just have no idea what this is doing here. Like literally 0. If it has Speed Boost, which I'm assuming you aren't crazy enough to do, it should be Uber. If it doesn't, this doesn't have any place in OU. It might not even have a place in UU. This is one of the ones I genuinely cannot understand. Down to UU. Blissey This is definitely one of those "This-Is-Actually-BL-Not-OU-Pokemon", but it's really understandable so I have nothing to say about it. Breloom Bronzong ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Chandelure Chansey Lmao Conkeldurr Dragonite Dugtrio Excadrill Ferrothorn Lmao Flygon This is another "why the fuck is this here" pokemon. The only reason I can decipher is it might be another "We think this is too strong for UU" pokemon, and I disagree. It's definitely worth testing. Maybe you guys are just really scared of Outrage? I don't really get why it's OU at all, so I can't really provide an incredible amount of reasoning for why it shouldn't be. Regardless, Down to UU. Forretress Do we have Defog? If yes, get this the fuck out of OU. If not, this is fine. Gengar Gliscor Gyarados Haxorus Heracross ???????. I'm guessing this is another precautionary glorified BL. Not much to say on the matter. I feel like it might be OU by usage early on, to be fair, but I feel like it'll drop out. I understand why he's here, but I don't really agree. I guess Moxie might end up being really scary in UU. Hydreigon Jellicent Kingdra Lucario Machamp Again, I'm guessing this is a psuedo-BL because of how fucking obnoxious No Guard DPunch would probably be in lower tiers. I mean, it's obnoxious in OU in every tier it exists in, and it isn't even especially good in them. I feel like my job would be a lot easier if you guys separated what pokemon you think would be "real OU" and are just dumping here as BL's, but I guess it's a bit of a pointless distinction. Definitely think there's room for it to be given a chance in UU, but I understand why you don't want it to be there initially. Magnezone Mamoswine Medicham You guys are actually insane. Does the tier council just not want strong fighting types in any tier other than OU? This trend is starting to worry me. Medicham literally has no place in OU, so I'm guessing this is supposed to be BL, because pure power STAB high jump kick big number aaaaa scary. Fuck that, this thing is made of glass, I don't care how stylish its' scarf is. UU, at best. Metagross Milotic ????????????????????????. That's about all I can sum up for my reaction. Just genuine confusion as to this thing being here. Down to UU. Pelipper So Drizzle Pelipper is confirmed then. Porygon-Z ??????????????????????. Again, I'm assuming this is a glorified BL, which I've seen an uncomfortable amount of, because I can't imagine this thing having any niche in OU to speak of. I mean, it can hit hard in UU, I suppose, but I don't think this thing is crAaAaAaAzy enough to be insta-BL. Down to UU. Reuniclus Rhyperior ????????????????????. I don't understand? Maybe it's because I'm assuming Rain will be a pretty significant threat, but there's no way you guys think this is OU viable, and I don't know why you'd be terrified of it in UU. Get this O U T O F H E R E. Down to UU. Salamence Scizor Skarmory Slowbro Snorlax Calling it now, this thing will struggle in OU. Not necessarily sure I disagree with it being put here, though. Staraptor Starmie Swampert I'm guessing this is here because sneaky pebbles + Ttar? Not really sure I think this thing will end up staying OU, but I understand why you dumped it here. Togekiss Tyranitar Lmfao. Venusaur Why is this here? I don't see Ninetales up here, so we're not getting Drought. So why is this OU? UU at best. Volcarona I kind of dump these last two in the same boat; They're both generally kind of unremarkable, and I'm dubious as to whether they'll actually be OU. I guess they might have a chance, and definitely at least have a chance, I suppose. I'm guessing they're psuedo-BL? Meh. Weavile Yanmega Lower tier notes: Alakazam UU? So, no Magic Guard? Archeops meh. That reminds me, are you guys implementing flying gem and whatnot? That influences his viability a good deal. If rain ends up being as good as I suspect, I bet 50 shekels that Ludicolo will be OU by usage. Porygon2 being UU is hilarious, since I think Eviolite P2 has a bigger niche in OU than Porygon-Z would ever dream of having. Slaking being UU seems overly-precautionary, like a lot of these pokemon. End notes: Anyway, tear this apart if you'd like, I'm sure you guys have at least some justification for a good amount of these pokemon, but a lot of them just seem baffling to me. I doubt you guys will change most of them, but more than a few are so baffling that I couldn't help but post about it. It's unfortunate I couldn't provide too much constructive criticism for a lot of them, since, honestly, I just didn't understand WHY they were where they were in the first place, and there's a lot I just don't know about what's going to be released for it to be worth my time to make arguments based on premises that are likely to be faulty. Anyway, if anything, you guys might re-consider or look over some of the ones I flagged, at the very least, so I guess it's something. By the way, the OU you posted doesn't have Gigalith at all (it doesn't belong in ou anyway lmao), Darmanitan isn't OU at all IMO but it might end up being usage-OU for a bit, and it might be too strong for UU, so that's not unreasonable, and Cloyster going to OU just seems fucking insane to me like why even. xXBlu3BreathXx, RysPicz, OrangeManiac and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Munya Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 To the above and why some things may seem weird, they were basically given a list of 500 pokemon and each person individually asked where to place stuff, they didn't really have any base tiers to see what was already placed where and were asked to build the tiers from scratch. Placing things without actually knowing what might be in that tier probably isn't the easiest task, and everybody probably had different opinions of what would be where. This is pretty much the results of that voting process, things are still being discussed/moved around now that they are actually able to see a tier and not a list of 500 pokemon. Since Riga posted that, Darmanitan was moved to OU and Gigalith to UU, that list was also asked to be done assuming no hidden abilities at the time of the launch. I may get back to you with some more information later. Link to comment
Rigamorty Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Senile said: so, this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I highly disagree with like, a lot of this list. I'd go into UU/NU, but honestly, I barely looked at them because if the OU list is fucked up, it's basically guaranteed the lower tiers will similarly look twisted so there's not really much of a point. so, normally, I'd go into this huge tangent about how deciding pre-emptively what will be in what tiers to determine temporary tiers is dumb and an absurdly bad idea (Because, yes, I think it is), but it obviously sounds like the matter is out of your hands, so that's kind of pointless. So, realizing that, I would naturally go indepth onto which ones I disagree with, giving reasons and explanations for each individual one, but I realize that would be equally pointless. Why? Because it sounds like all of this was discussed internally, with internal information about what will and won't be in the update that most people (and certainly not me, since it's not like I've been keeping up with the content) know about, so there's a pretty good chance that some (but probably not all, just based on the quantity of disagreements) of my criticisms of the list won't really be applicable, because of information I straight up just don't know. I really don't understand how anyone not on the tier council could provide substantial critique this list. As of right now, what do I know? Uhhhh, I know that the pokemon on the lists are almost definitely coming out, it's a safe bet that weather starters won't have permanent weather because Swift Swimmers are legal (also it'd be dumb), it's gen 5-ish, most if not all legendaries aren't coming, and SOME hidden abilities are being released, but I don't know which ones, although I can infer some based on the list. I dunno, maybe there's more information out than these tier lists and the bit I know/can infer, and I just don't know it because I haven't been paying much attention, but from the responses in this thread it seems most all of this information is internal, and just having these lists isn't very helpful. With that being said, I'm going to cross out and critique the lists with some minor comments as to why I'm suggesting they be changed, since going in-depth will probably be wrong in some minor, or even major details. The point of the list is maybe you guys can "internally" re-analyze or look at some of the ones I suggest, I wouldn't recommend anyone point-by-point try and refute them, because some of it's probably wrong, but hey, you can't win them all. Also, one last note; I am assuming the reason most of the pokemon are in the tier they're in is because you're being reaaaaally conservative, based on some of the pokemon I'm seeing. I'm guessing a good amount of these pokemon you put in OU aren't really necessarily pokemon you guys think are OU, but BL as well. and well boo that, lame af cmon guys. Any ones I striked through I think should definitely be moved. Anyway, here you go: To answer a few things to the best of my knowledge to clarify: Good Defog is probably going to be a thing Hidden Abilities will not initially be a thing (pretty common knowledge) No perma-weather at all (as is already the case with sand stream) We're not really trying to predict usage, just placing things according to power at the moment, since we clearly have no usage to go by and we aren't psychic. So the things you say seem like BL, its basically because this is a huge BL tier list in the regard that we have no usage. I think a lot of your "LMAO WHY IS THIS HERE???" comes from the fact that all of us on tier council are a lot more used to pokemmo than gen 5 (i personally barely touched gen 5 competitively) so shit like Medicham, Blaziken (although with a lack of infernape to 100% totally outclass it it looks not as ass), Milotic, etc just seem good to us because its hard to think they'll go from top tier OU pokemon in game right now to being not OU at all later on. Those are basically the kinds of things we wanted to hear from the community on the matter, so thanks. Also cloyster will (probably) get shell smash + skill link (as its not hidden ability, just a secondary) and that's fucking terrifying to me. EDIT: note that these things are just how we were told to consider them when building our lists, so they're presumably becoming a thing, but not guaranteed, so dont be mad if it doesn't all happen the way i said Edited September 22, 2017 by Rigamorty Link to comment
suigin Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Senile said: Post I feel like there was a lot of different views when it came to voting the tiers. Personally I voted what I thought "wouldn't tear this tier apart" but something like "I don't want people who play lower tiers to get overwhelmed by this particular mon on release" popped in my head at times (Which would probably explain some of the conservative decisions you mention, but that's just me, I'm one out of 9 people), others seemed to aim for more of a "I predict stuff will look more or less like this in the end" others, I don't know. Hidden abilities won't be out on release as far as I know. They will be released on the upcoming dungeons as addressed by Kyu I think? in a post on some other thread, so overall this entire thing will be worked on the assumption that HAs won't be out, and the changes on mechanics only we currently know. Quote Archeops meh. That reminds me, are you guys implementing flying gem and whatnot? That influences his viability a good deal. Yes, gems will be implemented. Quote Porygon2 being UU is hilarious, since I think Eviolite P2 has a bigger niche in OU than Porygon-Z would ever dream of having. Agreed. I believe it's going to be an amazing anti-meta Pokemon as Mence's one true counter, and a good way to deal with a lot of other popular picks, the only way I can think it'd be UU by usage is if people opt to use their one Eviolite (Until they replay the game on an alt, buy it off someone else, or dunno if it will be purchaseable with BP) on Chansey the majority of the time, however it is a case where I thought "This Pokemon won't tear the tier apart" so I voted for it to be allowed in UU. Quote Slaking being UU seems overly-precautionary, like a lot of these pokemon. Like I mentioned earlier a case where I thought "I don't want all the NU players to suddenly be dropped this 160 attack beast without any time to prepare". Some guy may want to try new stuff but has to suddenly deal with one of last gen's hardest hitters. EDIT: LMAO I missed out on most of the post while I made this will edit shortly EDIT EDIT: Nevermind it'd take a decade to respond to all of them. A bunch of them I agree with, others can be summed as "this has no counters in lower tiers", others are you just saying "lmao" cba to go into specifics. Edited September 22, 2017 by suigin Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 1 hour ago, ykh9108 said: Wait..... Wobbuffet is UBERS??? yes for good reason. dont talk about it anymore or you will trigger senile. also if you give someone a list of 500 pokemon to put into tiers they will either do it right and spend thousands of hours or they wont do it right because you are giving them 500+ pokemon to go over with lots of unknown factors and a time factor that isnt measured in years. the old method of "put everything in ou then ban things to ubers and get usage stats for uu ect" seems better. broken things will quickly be evident. even if each person only spends 10 minutes per pokemon that's still over 80 hours. or perhaps im misunderstanding? Link to comment
Munya Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said: yes for good reason. dont talk about it anymore or you will trigger senile. also if you give someone a list of 500 pokemon to put into tiers they will either do it right and spend thousands of hours or they wont do it right because you are giving them 500+ pokemon to go over with lots of unknown factors and a time factor that isnt measured in years. the old method of "put everything in ou then ban things to ubers and get usage stats for uu ect" seems better. broken things will quickly be evident. even if each person only spends 10 minutes per pokemon that's still over 80 hours. or perhaps im misunderstanding? This is how things will eventually be, the lower tiers are temporary only until we get real usage to go off of in OU, it was decided that we were not willing to drop the lower tiers this time and they would instead be given a list of pokemon to temporarily fill them until usage had time/gave enough to work with. Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Munya said: This is how things will eventually be, the lower tiers are temporary only until we get real usage to go off of in OU, it was decided that we were not willing to drop the lower tiers this time and they would instead be given a list of pokemon to temporarily fill them until usage had time/gave enough to work with. badly broken tiers will slow things down for what? so people can complain about the tier being broken instead of the tier going on holiday? also give boosted knock off pls, evolite walls =/ also gliscor ou gligar nu but evo gligay is bulkier and this is a wall in gen 5 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 33-40 (19.1 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 45-54 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Edited September 22, 2017 by fredrichnietze axx 1 Link to comment
Senile Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 25 minutes ago, suigin said: I feel like there was a lot of different views when it came to voting the tiers. Personally I voted what I thought "wouldn't tear this tier apart" but something like "I don't want people who play lower tiers to get overwhelmed by this particular mon on release" popped in my head at times (Which would probably explain some of the conservative decisions you mention, but that's just me, I'm one out of 9 people), others seemed to aim for more of a "I predict stuff will look more or less like this in the end" others, I don't know. Hidden abilities won't be out on release as far as I know. They will be released on the upcoming dungeons as addressed by Kyu I think? in a post on some other thread, so overall this entire thing will be worked on the assumption that HAs won't be out, and the changes on mechanics only we currently know. Yes, gems will be implemented. Agreed. I believe it's going to be an amazing anti-meta Pokemon as Mence's one true counter, and a good way to deal with a lot of other popular picks, the only way I can think it'd be UU by usage is if people opt to use their one Eviolite (Until they replay the game on an alt, buy it off someone else, or dunno if it will be purchaseable with BP) on Chansey the majority of the time, however it is a case where I thought "This Pokemon won't tear the tier apart" so I voted for it to be allowed in UU. Like I mentioned earlier a case where I thought "I don't want all the NU players to suddenly be dropped this 160 attack beast without any time to prepare". Some guy may want to try new stuff but has to suddenly deal with one of last gen's hardest hitters. EDIT: LMAO I missed out on most of the post while I made this will edit shortly EDIT EDIT: Nevermind it'd take a decade to respond to all of them. A bunch of them I agree with, others can be summed as "this has no counters in lower tiers", others are you just saying "lmao" cba to go into specifics. my b, I guess I should have been clear about the "Lmao"s. They aren't placements I disagree with, they're just there as jokes. Obviously I don't think TTarr/Ferro/Chansey shouldn't be OU. All the other ones are legitimate, though. Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 dumbest idea I've ever read Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Your OU tier has 49 Pokemon, current PokeMMO has 34. I'm aware lots of things for you might be "BL" but you can't have over 10 Pokemon in BL right off the bat. What's even more baffling to me is that your UU tier has 70 Pokemon while our current UU has 34. I don't know whether you lowered the cutoff point to make the tiers but regardless it doesn't really explain why you have such an enormous difference with the sizes of OU and UU from the launch. Even in the case you got everything perfectly correct in terms of strength (even though I agree with basically every point Senile made about the strength of your OU Pokemon), it is virtually impossible that the tiers look the same if your sizes of the tier aren't reflected by the realistic amount of Pokemon you would have with a certain cutoff point. And even if you decided to make this drastic change about the usage cutoff point, I really think that's something that should be discussed with the community. Suneet 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) I'm gonna screenshot this entire thread for the next time some idiot complains about usage based tiering Anyways staying on topic, @OrangeManiac I'm not seeing a lot of constructive criticism here. What changes would you make to the lists? Edited September 22, 2017 by Gunthug DoubleJ and Toupi 2 Link to comment
OrangeManiac Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Gunthug said: Anyways staying on topic, @OrangeManiac I'm not seeing a lot of constructive criticism here. What changes would you make to the lists? Well, like I said I think Senile pointed out lots of Pokemon that you seem to overestimate a little bit. But for me, it's rather irrelevant. I can't say with any confidence that my valuations would be any better than Tier Council's. My main critique was only that if your tiers contain too many Pokemon, the chances of the tiers being similar than with the implementation of usage is about 0 %. I'm just against this whole "strength based guess-tiering" because we all know that's what it is. Now you pointed out that this wasn't your call and that's fair enough, I don't want any names anyways and everything I'm writing is with a purpose of changing the person's viewpoint who made the call the introduce this tiering for the Unova launch. Gunthug and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
LifeStyle Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 obviously whoever came up with that idea should stay the hell away from comp scene. pachima and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
Matoka Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Rigamorty said: Here are the tiers as we have them now for when the update hits. If there's anyone who sees something that we may have missed that seems offsetting let us know. Things we're currently talking about are Cloyster from UU to OU, Gigalith from OU to UU, and Darmanitan from UU to OU. OU Reveal hidden contents Aerodactyl Azumarill Bisharp Blaziken Blissey Breloom Bronzong Chandelure Chansey NFE Conkeldurr Dragonite Dugtrio Excadrill Ferrothorn Flygon Forretress Gengar Gliscor Gyarados Haxorus Heracross Hydreigon Jellicent Kingdra Lucario Machamp Magnezone Mamoswine Medicham Metagross Milotic Pelipper Porygon-Z Reuniclus Rhyperior Salamence Scizor Skarmory Slowbro Snorlax Staraptor Starmie Swampert Togekiss Tyranitar Venusaur Volcarona Weavile Yanmega UU Reveal hidden contents Absol Alakazam Altaria Ambipom Arcanine Archeops Armaldo Beartic Bouffalant Braviary Carracosta Charizard Clefable Cloyster Cofagrigus Crobat Darmanitan Dodrio Durant Dusclops NFE Dusknoir Electivire Emboar Espeon Feraligatr Froslass Gallade Gardevoir Gigalith Golurk Gothitelle Hariyama Hitmonlee Honchkrow Houndoom Jolteon Kangaskhan Krookodile Lilligant Linoone Ludicolo Magneton NFE Marowak Mienshao Miltank Mismagius Nidoking Nidoqueen Porygon2 NFE Rhydon NFE Roserade Samurott Sceptile Scrafty Sigilyph Slaking Stoutland Swellow Tangrowth Tauros Tentacruel Torkoal Typhlosion Umbreon Ursaring Vaporeon Venomoth Weezing Whimsicott Zangoose NU Reveal hidden contents Abra NFE Accelgor Aggron Aipom NFE Alomomola Amoonguss Ampharos Anorith NFE Arbok Archen NFE Ariados Aron NFE Audino Axew NFE Azurill NFE Bagon NFE Baltoy NFE Banette Barboach NFE Basculin Bayleef NFE Beautifly Beedrill Beheeyem Beldum NFE Bellossom Bellsprout NFE Bibarel Bidoof NFE Blastoise Blitzle NFE Boldore NFE Bonsly NFE Bronzor NFE Budew NFE Buizel NFE Bulbasaur NFE Burmy NFE Butterfree Cacnea NFE Cacturne Camerupt Carvanha NFE Cascoon NFE Castform Caterpie NFE Charmander NFE Charmeleon NFE Chikorita NFE Chimecho Chinchou NFE Chingling NFE Cinccino NFE Clamperl NFE Claydol Clefairy NFE Cleffa NFE Combee NFE Combusken NFE Corphish NFE Corsola Cottonee NFE Cradily Crawdaunt Croconaw NFE Crustle Cryogonal Cubchoo NFE Cubone NFE Cyndaquil NFE Darumaka NFE Deerling NFE Deino NFE Delcatty Delibird Dewgong Dewott NFE Diglett NFE Ditto Doduo NFE Donphan Dragonair NFE Dratini NFE Drifblim Drifloon NFE Drilbur NFE Drowzee NFE Druddigon Ducklett NFE Dunsparce Duosion NFE Duskull NFE Dustox Dwebble NFE Eelektrik NFE Eelektross Eevee NFE Ekans NFE Electabuzz NFE Electrike NFE Electrode Elekid NFE Elgyem Emolga Escavalier Exeggcute NFE Exeggutor Exploud Farfetch'd Fearow Feebas NFE Ferroseed NFE Finneon NFE Flaaffy NFE Flareon Floatzel Foongus NFE Fraxure NFE Frillish NFE Furret Galvantula Garbodor Gastly NFE Geodude NFE Girafarig Glaceon Glalie Gligar NFE Gloom NFE Golbat NFE Goldeen NFE Golduck Golem Golett NFE Gorebyss Gothita NFE Gothorita NFE Granbull Graveler NFE Grimer NFE Grovyle NFE Growlithe NFE Grumpig Gulpin NFE Gurdurr NFE Happiny NFE Haunter NFE Heatmor Herdier NFE Hitmonchan Hitmontop Hoothoot NFE Hoppip NFE Horsea NFE Houndour NFE Huntail Hypno Igglybuff NFE Illumise Ivysaur NFE Jigglypuff NFE Joltik NFE Jumpluff Jynx Kabuto NFE Kabutops Kadabra NFE Kakuna NFE Karrablast NFE Kecleon Kingler Kirlia NFE Klang NFE Klink NFE Klinklang Koffing NFE Krabby NFE Krokorok NFE Lairon NFE Lampent NFE Lanturn Lapras Larvesta NFE Larvitar NFE Leafeon Leavanny Ledian Ledyba NFE Lickilicky Lickitung NFE Liepard Lileep NFE Lillipup NFE Litwick NFE Lombre NFE Lotad NFE Loudred NFE Lumineon Lunatone Luvdisc Luxio NFE Luxray Machoke NFE Machop NFE Magby NFE Magcargo Magikarp NFE Magmar NFE Magmortar Magnemite NFE Makuhita NFE Mandibuzz Manectric Mankey NFE Mantine Mantyke NFE Maractus Mareep NFE Marill NFE Marshtomp NFE Masquerain Mawile Meditite NFE Meganium Meowth NFE Metang NFE Metapod NFE Mienfoo NFE Mightyena Mime Jr. NFE Minccino Minun Misdreavus NFE Mothim Mr. Mime Mudkip NFE Muk Munchlax NFE Munna NFE Murkrow NFE Musharna Natu NFE Nidoran♀ NFE Nidoran♂ NFE Nidorina NFE Nidorino NFE Nincada NFE Ninetales Ninjask Noctowl Nosepass NFE Numel NFE Nuzleaf NFE Octillery Oddish NFE Omanyte NFE Omastar Onix NFE Oshawott NFE Palpitoad NFE Panpour Pansage Pansear Paras NFE Parasect Patrat NFE Pawniard NFE Persian Petilil NFE Phanpy NFE Pichu NFE Pidgeot Pidgeotto NFE Pidgey NFE Pidove NFE Pignite NFE Pikachu NFE Piloswine NFE Pineco NFE Pinsir Plusle Politoed Poliwag Poliwhirl NFE Poliwrath Ponyta NFE Poochyena NFE Porygon NFE Primeape Probopass Psyduck NFE Pupitar NFE Purrloin NFE Quagsire Quilava NFE Qwilfish Raichu Ralts NFE Rapidash Raticate Rattata NFE Relicanth Remoraid NFE Rhyhorn NFE Riolu NFE Roggenrola NFE Roselia NFE Rufflet NFE Sableye Sandile NFE Sandshrew NFE Sandslash Sawk Sawsbuck Scolipede Scraggy NFE Scyther NFE Seadra NFE Seaking Sealeo NFE Seedot NFE Seel NFE Seismitoad Sentret NFE Serperior Servine NFE Seviper Sewaddle NFE Sharpedo Shedinja Shelgon NFE Shellder NFE Shelmet NFE Shiftry Shinx NFE Shroomish NFE Shuckle Shuppet NFE Silcoon NFE Simipour Simisage Simisear Skiploom NFE Skitty NFE Slakoth NFE Slowking Slowpoke NFE Slugma NFE Smeargle Smoochum NFE Sneasel NFE Snivy NFE Snorunt NFE Snubbull NFE Solosis NFE Solrock Spearow NFE Spheal NFE Spinarak NFE Spinda Spoink NFE Squirtle NFE Stantler Staravia NFE Starly NFE Staryu NFE Steelix Stunfisk Sudowoodo Sunflora Sunkern NFE Surskuit NFE Swablu NFE Swadloon NFE Swalot Swanna Swinub NFE Swoobat Taillow NFE Tangela NFE Teddiursa NFE Tentacool NFE Tepig NFE Throh Timburr NFE Tirtouga NFE Togepi NFE Togetic NFE Torchic NFE Totodile NFE Tranquil NFE Trapinch NFE Treecko NFE Tropius Trubbish NFE Tympole NFE Tynamo NFE Tyrogue NFE Unfezant Unown Vanillish NFE Vanillite NFE Vanilluxe Venipede NFE Venonat NFE Vespiquen Vibrava NFE Victreebel Vigoroth NFE Vileplume Volbeat Voltorb Vullaby NFE Vulpix NFE Wailmer NFE Wailord Walrein Wartortle NFE Watchdog Weedle NFE Weepinbell NFE Whirlipede NFE Whiscash Whismur NFE Wigglytuff Wingull NFE Woobat NFE Wooper NFE Wormadam Plant Wormadam Sandy Wormadam Trash Wurmple NFE Wynaut NFE Xatu Yamask NFE Yanma NFE Zebstrika Zigzagoon NFE Zorua NFE Zubat NFE Zweilous NFE I have edited your quote and labelled every NFE pokemon in all tiers to my knowledge for ease of viewing Also where is Zoroark? Edited September 22, 2017 by Matoka put NFE beside all NFE's Link to comment
Jordzi Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Sadly just don't see Milo staying OU. With stuff like yache berry and multiscale coming in (rip dragonslayer) + competition from the likes of Jellicent (no Rotom helps tho) and the general power creep, it's not gonna be an easy ride for her. Rip my bby </3 SteveDerBaum and HowLXG 2 Link to comment
Senile Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Alright, so based on the responses, I think I've got a better idea of what the metagame might look like after the update. I've made a new OU list, and I'll provide reasoning for some of my removals/additions (at least, the ones I haven't already explained). Before that though, I'm going to go ahead and list all the assumptions I'm making for this list. No Hidden Abilities. No Legendaries. Any pokemon not on the OU/UU/NU lists provided beforehand will not be released. This means Gastrodon, Infernape, Rotom, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Toxicroak, etc. Pelipper is getting Drizzle and Torkoal is getting Drought. Damp Rock and the other weather extending stones are being released, and perma-weather is gone. I don't think this is confirmed, but it seems like a really safe bet to me. Keep in mind if this is true or not drastically effects OU imo, since I'm assuming they will be out, and if they are, I think rain will be incredibly dominant. If they won't be released, then fuck me the list I've given you is flawed gg it has to be revised again Good Defog. Pokemon I've removed without prior reasoning in my last post will be discussed at the bottom. Pokemon that I've added will be bolded and explained within the list. Any pokemon I'm adding that I think are more BL than OU will be pointed out. So, without further ado, here you go: OU Spoiler Blissey BL. Breloom This thing is gonna suffer a lot compared to real Gen 5 imo. It won't have Technician and can't abuse the busted sleep mechanics. With that being said, it's still threatening to Rain teams, and is safe bet for BL at least, so it stays. Chandelure Chansey Cloyster When I said this thing shouldn't be OU, I obviously forgot about Skill Link Shell Smash. I'm an idiot, this thing is an easy ou, idk what the fuck I was thinking. Conkeldurr Darmanitan Dragonite Without Multiscale, I don't think it'll be viable, but I think this is a safe bet for BL at least, so I'm leaving it here. Dugtrio Excadrill Ferrothorn Gengar Gliscor Gyarados Haxorus Hydreigon Jellicent Kabutops This thing is insane in Rain Offense. I honestly think this, and rain in general, is being slept on hard as fuck even with the weather nerfs. You guys got Kingdra here, which is also terrifying, but all this thing needs is 1 SD to outspeed and decimate the entire tier. The scariest part about this thing is that it can run Adamant Swift Swim with basically no cost; Normally, running Adamant on a SS Set would let it be outsped by scarf base 108's and above, which could revenge kill it, and running Jolly actually noticeably weakens it. However, the usual Scarf pokemon that could revenge it in those speed tiers are the Lati's and Keldeo and they aren't being released. Couple that with physical bulk to resist priority, and the fact that the pokemon we do have in those speed tiers (lmao Scarf Dugtrio/Gengar anyone?) would get absolutely torn apart by Rain-Boosted LO Aqua Jet, we don't have Sash Magic Guard Alakazam the always reliable revenge killer, and you have something terrifying. Probably it's biggest flaws are 1: It struggles against Ferrothorn, like rain in general, but that's something rain teams will just have to deal with. Magnezone coming out should help a lot. (can't wait for shed shell ferro to have 70% usage lmaoooo). 2: It isn't easy to get it free setup. If you can get it 1 SD, it can tear apart the entire tier, and the opponent will probably forced to sac at least 1 pokemon to send out a weather starter to get rid of rain. Also, if you take a hit for the setup, it won't have another chance to get an SD, so you don't really get 2 chances at the sweep. Other than that, this thing is devastating, and is up there with Kingdra in terms of how scary strong it is. This and Kingdra will force literally every team to have weather manipulation, because if you can't change the weather, your ferro is either dead or too injured, and this thing ever gets an SD with rain up, you're fucking done, since it's not like we have Gastrodon. Here's some calcs if you think I'm exaggerating: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 153-183 (88.9 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 94-110 (51.9 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Keep in mind Ferro needs mixed bulk, or it takes too much from Kingdra, among other things; It's not like you can focus anti-Kabutops. That's why I went for the general mixed bulk spread.) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 386-454 (95.7 - 112.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 218-257 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock I could go on, but I think I've made my point. This thing hits crazy hard, and outspeeds basically everything in rain, with anything it doesn't ouspeed getting torn apart by Aqua Jet. You NEED other weather starters, and you need to keep them alive. If you don't, all the opponent needs to do is make a well-placed sac and this thing runs you through with 1 turn of setup. Scary af. I think the only 2 pokemon that can really revenge kill this thing effectively is a Scarf Starmie, and even then, if it's weakened: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie in Rain: 77-91 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Aqua Jet Azumarill. Honestly, even though I bumped Azu down to UU, it being one of the only things that can whack this thing is actually pretty good. It doesn't quite OHKO Kabutops, and it's useless against rain's other premier sweepers (Ludicolo and Kingdra), but it's something. Here's the calc, for the curious: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops in Rain: 93-109 (68.3 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Kingdra Lucario Ludicolo Not much to say. I don't think this is as scary as Kabutops, since Kingdra overshadows it a bit, but I placed it here because I think it's a good addition to rain teams. If rain is viable, it'll end up OU by usage. I don't think it'll be OP in lower tiers. or anything silly like that. Magnezone Mamoswine Metagross Pelipper Reuniclus Salamence Scizor Skarmory Snorlax Staraptor Starmie Togekiss Torkoal Did you guys forget this thing gets Drought? I think this is pretty self-explanatory. Tyranitar Volcarona Removed pokemon: Spoiler Aerodactyl Explained. Azumarill Explained, but on second thought, this thing does have a few extra perks it didn't have in Gen 5; IE, No Gastrodon or Keldeo to bully it. Still doubt it'll be a real OU, but it's possible tbh. Bisharp Explained. Blaziken Explained. Bronzong So I kind of just "Eehhhhh"'d this before, but I ultimately decided to bring it down. The reasoning is pretty simple; I don't think it's defensively that amazing against most of the things I perceive as top OU pokemon, Defog really fucks up its' whole dual screens + rocks schtick, Ferro/Skarmory are just better steel types, and it shouldn't be OP in lower tiers. UU at best. Flygon Explained. Forretress Good Defog = This thing has no place in OU. Sorry m8, there's other steel types and spinning isn't as good. Heracross Might end up being BL, but I definitely don't think it's OU by usage. There's a lot of better fighting type options imo. Definitely worth putting in UU. Machamp I know Dynamic Punch is obnoxious, and more than anything else you want it shoved to the bottom of BL so it never gets exploited, but it's worth a shot. Medicham Explained. Milotic Explained. By the way: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 239-282 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and poison damage Porygon-Z Explained. Rhyperior Explained. Slowbro At first I left this thing up here because of Regenerator, but I know realize that no HA means no Regenerator. Even against rain it isn't super scary. Also, in case there was any doubt: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 152-179 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Swampert So, after further thought, I really don't think this thing has much place in OU. It obviously can't fill the hole left by Gastrodon due to being neutral to water, and its' stats struggle to keep up with the power creep. Even its' use against TTar falls flat. I guess it gets stealth rocks, but it doesn't have the healing ability to keep coming in, and its' stats aren't good enough to compensate. At least it gets rocks. Venusaur Explained. Also, even now that I've realized Torkoal is getting Drought, it won't have chlorophyll either way so lol get outta here. Weavile These last two are kind of dubious, but I don't think they're gonna be insane OU threats or anything, so UU at least to begin with should be fine imo. Yanmega And that's about it. I think I covered mostly everything. I didn't bother with UU, because that's waaaaay bigger and I've only given it a passing glance, but the list is obviously way bloated, and with the pokemon I suggested to move down, will only get bloatier. Especially since there's several pokemon not there which should probably be moved up (Eviolite Gligar is godly, Roost/Defog.), but eh, that's life. gbwead, Gunthug, xXBlu3BreathXx and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment
RysPicz Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 @Senile Flygon is getting DD next update. You sure this won't be OU? Link to comment
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