[PSL9] Season Baen9neXL - THE HYPE THREAD

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Gunthug said:

I've also seen and heard the reports of other instances of coaching that may even have proof to accomanpy. But do any of those incidents involve players still in the competition? 

Yes and no, from what I understand. 

[Gunthug]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Yes and no, from what I understand. 

My understanding was no but I could be wrong - I'm sure you can see the problem with trying to punish, say, someone who ghosted I'm week 3 if they're on like goons or something. That being said, afaik council will tackle some punishments after the season. To the extent that those on the council are also guilty, well I've no idea what to do about that. Psl isn't really equipped to handle top down corruption 

[DoubleJ]

5 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

My understanding was no but I could be wrong - I'm sure you can see the problem with trying to punish, say, someone who ghosted I'm week 3 if they're on like goons or something. That being said, afaik council will tackle some punishments after the season. To the extent that those on the council are also guilty, well I've no idea what to do about that. Psl isn't really equipped to handle top down corruption 

That's why we initially were gonna discuss this after the season. We had proof against me, but we all knew this went deeper than just my one incident. I don't fault them, but I thought we had a plan in place to try and tackle this after the season. I would formally step down, PSL9 would have an asterisk next to it until the end of time, and we'd have a genuine discussion on coaching. 

 

Although, with community pressure and my understanding that Zebra wanted to take action as well, here we are. Which is fair by every account. We had proof I fucked up, but now we have this endless list of players who were coached. Not to the extent of ghosting, which could be argued happened in my situation, but coaching nonetheless. I had hopes to be involved in the process of discussing the outcome but (and this is where I get to cry) bridges have been burned and I'm pretty much just fed up with how this was handled.  

 

My recommendations are this:

• Give me a season ban or some shit for violating the rules while acting as a host
• Name the players who were witnessed being coached and who were coached, give them the opportunity to admit wrongdoing
• Ask anyone else to admit whether they had coached or been coached this season or in prior seasons
• In future seasons require that all players go into "Do Not Disturb" during their matches on PokeMMO
• Require the use of registered names during Showdown matches and force the use of those names throughout the entirety of the season (no changing)
• Require that the host can no longer play and that any Discord teams have the host as a member

While this doesn't stop coaching in its entirely, it surely slows it down. It also helps to prevent ghosting on Showdown, which this season I realized may have been an issue considering the frequency that players used unregistered names when they played. 

 

 

[gbwead]

4 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Require that the host can no longer play and that any Discord teams have the host as a member

I love this!!! 

[soyhector]

13 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Require that the host can no longer play and that any Discord teams have the host as a member

A corrupt host will appear and a new commerce. Selling information of each team, teambuilds and strategies :v

[DoctorPBC]

Gonna suggest another. After each draft the host secretly appoints a trusted member of each team as an anti-coach. Basically they get a payout for reporting any possible coaching in their team, basically a paid mole that reports back. To host. If a teams clean then they are good, if not then it’s an extra layer of protection 

[fredrichnietze]

i see a problem with the discord thing. anyone can create a discord and just because the host is in the official team discord doesnt mean that the the team cant have a unofficial team discord for stealthily coaching. ect ect ect. add in that using unofficial team discord for team discussions is prohibited and it gets harder to cheat. 

and yea people can use skype or a billion other messaging services. you cant moderate everything or catch everything but this makes using discord to cheat just a little bit harder.

 

also was against host playing since day one but no one else agreed. 

 

also also can we get showdown room mutes? 

[Gunthug]

15 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

That's why we initially were gonna discuss this after the season. We had proof against me, but we all knew this went deeper than just my one incident. I don't fault them, but I thought we had a plan in place to try and tackle this after the season. I would formally step down, PSL9 would have an asterisk next to it until the end of time, and we'd have a genuine discussion on coaching. 

 

Although, with community pressure and my understanding that Zebra wanted to take action as well, here we are. Which is fair by every account. We had proof I fucked up, but now we have this endless list of players who were coached. Not to the extent of ghosting, which could be argued happened in my situation, but coaching nonetheless. I had hopes to be involved in the process of discussing the outcome but (and this is where I get to cry) bridges have been burned and I'm pretty much just fed up with how this was handled.  

 

My recommendations are this:

• Give me a season ban or some shit for violating the rules while acting as a host
• Name the players who were witnessed being coached and who were coached, give them the opportunity to admit wrongdoing
• Ask anyone else to admit whether they had coached or been coached this season or in prior seasons
• In future seasons require that all players go into "Do Not Disturb" during their matches on PokeMMO
• Require the use of registered names during Showdown matches and force the use of those names throughout the entirety of the season (no changing)
• Require that the host can no longer play and that any Discord teams have the host as a member

While this doesn't stop coaching in its entirely, it surely slows it down. It also helps to prevent ghosting on Showdown, which this season I realized may have been an issue considering the frequency that players used unregistered names when they played. 

 

 

I still can't understand the premise that this should have been swept under the rug until after the season. What kind of message does that send? Arguably the highest form of cheating in psl will be swiftly dealt with as soon as your team wins the championship? 

 

Anyway I'm the one who pushed for action, ultimately it fell on zebra to make the post but if you want someone to blame, I'm your guy. I'm not all that concerned with you being banned next season  (when has a new host ever honored previous bans anyways) but like I said, deferring punishment would have had a severe impact on the precedent we were setting 

 

Sadly I 100% agree the host cannot play in the future which is a huge bummer and I take some blame for being the host that began to play again after orange set the good example 

[Jaawax]

If some one is pick by a manager, he give 1M to the Host, if all the season was ok, he get it back, if he get couch or something, 500k for who caught it, 500k for the final price

[DoubleJ]

8 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

I still can't understand the premise that this should have been swept under the rug until after the season. What kind of message does that send? Arguably the highest form of cheating in psl will be swiftly dealt with as soon as your team wins the championship? 

Like I said, I can't fault the decision one bit. If they had asked me to sit out for the final I would have, but people wanted blood. Ultimately, I was hoping the relationship I had built with Zebra, Gb, and Lkrenz would save me from this kind of public humiliation.

 

8 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

 

Anyway I'm the one who pushed for action, ultimately it fell on zebra to make the post but if you want someone to blame, I'm your guy. I'm not all that concerned with you being banned next season  (when has a new host ever honored previous bans anyways) but like I said, deferring punishment would have had a severe impact on the precedent we were setting 

 

Sadly I 100% agree the host cannot play in the future which is a huge bummer and I take some blame for being the host that began to play again after orange set the good example 

Yea, I personally couldn't do it either. I considered it each time, but it would just be too boring. 

[Kimikozen]

Welp I have just caught up on all of this and I'm gonna give my perspective.

 

Ever since I started playing PSL in season 6, I started to realize coaching was a minor problem in the mmo scene. For some context, I started in Smogon around 2012, and if you are unaware, coaching can ban you from all competitive play forever or for many years, including the stripping of your trophies. It still occurs, and relatively commonly at that. Anyways, Week 4 I am finally subbed in for OU lineup-Team Riga, and I want to prove myself. During the match in which I was destroying my opponent, I started to make some unnecessary overpredictions that really wouldn't have ended up mattering but still were unnecessary. I get a PM from one of my teammates, whom I honestly do not remember their name, and they say "dude just tbolt the gyara and you win, dont overpredict." I proceeded to tbolt and win the game. 1-0 record, woohoo. 

 

Next season in VALE, there was little to no coaching and I'm proud to say our undefeated record was pretty damn honest. Maybe my teammates were coaching each other but I personally was never coached or coached myself.

 

Next season in Brave Blazikens, I'll be 100% honest, I coached a lot on that team. Jovi  life drafted me to be the SMOU player but we could not pick up Oltan cheap enough so I had to play DPP. We drafted Coge to be the SM player for the squad. Coge didn't know much about Gen 7 or the metagame, so I trained with him a bunch before the season. I gave Coge all of his teams, the calcs, and I coached all of his matches. This is not taking away his 4-0 rookie record at all, he made the majority of the plays. But I gave input on key moments and helped him get those victories. There was some other coaching that season too but the nitty gritty details do not matter to much.

 

The point is I joined PSL and nobody really gave a shit about coaching. I was coached in literally my first PSL match, and I coached a few guys in other matches. There is almost zero precedent on punishment, there is almost no way to stop it, and nobody really cares if you do it. PSL teams coach, in-game teams coach their own players even if the teammate isn't in their PSL team, and friends coach each other. The only reason the Ratatas are getting witch hunted is that there is proof. Proof almost never gets out about this shit, and it is mostly just empty claims. Not to mention that most people coach, so why call out others for coaching. (sry gbwead I got salty after PSL 8 semis, I called u out for coaching kameme lmao). I think nobody should be banned in this scenario except maybe JJ from hosting. He and barrage should still be able to play.

 

News flash, coaching isn't going anywhere. I used to play online Poker with my roommates and ghosting is ruining the game. Any online game where there is only a certain limited of moves you can make with your mind, there will be coaching/ghosting. But, we can try and subdue it as best as possible. I believe the bounty system in which there is a reward for snitching is probably the best way to stop it. It seems so grimy to implement. But, if the problem is as big it seems, and we actually want to solve it, then it is the best solution. Otherwise, you can't really do much. Maybe improve the skill base of the players? TBH thats asking a lot xD.

 

I think the "allow coaching" rule is pretty ridiculous though. I find that high level matches in PSL are rarely coached, because two great minds at the game don't need other opinions. It is the weak players/new players that get coached. If I am facing xXSHitplayer500Xx, I want to be playing xXShitplayer500Xx, not a different player. I think preparation for the week is one of the most fun parts about PSL. For example, Gunthug has a certain style of DPP he plays that I've picked up from games vs him on ladder and PSL matches. I build against him and for him, and the team might otherwise be shit against SweetForU, Nik, etc. Coaching for everyone is pretty dumb, and relies on what good players can be online at all times.

 

TL;DR: I coach, you coach, we all fucking coach. Whether it be a simple whisper of a calc, or chronic ghosting. Cut the bullshit and be honest you fucks. Am I scummy for coaching during the blazikens season? Hell yes, but I guarantee you a lot of others do it. I apologize for anyone who is mostly honest and does not coach. I applaud you. To be honest coaching is too much fucking work so I did it very rarely this season. Add bounty system, improve skill base of players, still keep coaching a bannable offense. Side note: I don't give a shit if you ban me. You may as well ban the whole server.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Kimikozen

[Bilburt]

we came so close to a dramaless end to the season, I think JJ staged everything so he could be remembered as host. Too suspicious that a rat would rat out another rat.I just dont see it

[Gunthug]

Well to jj's credit, his actions have indirectly sparked by far the most productive discussion we've ever had on coaching 

[DrButler]

18 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

coaching can ban you from all competitive play forever or for many years, including the stripping of your trophies. It still occurs, and relatively commonly at that.

Always been wondering why that isnt a thing yet. One week suspensions and yellow cards sure were scary.

[DrButler]

I feel like i have to get that off my chest to rest.

 

27 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

TL;DR: I coach, you coach, we all fucking coach.

 

I guess theres still a handful of honest people, who think of the game as a sport, but you probably dont understand since the only reason you didnt coach more this season is that itd have been inconvinient for you, right?

 

Nothing personal, but this "but other people do it as well - just admit it, we´re all scumbags" - attitude is fucking disgusting and from a never taken part, but thought about it point of view, i dont see any reason to sign up for an event, which forces me to interact with people, who have disgusting attitudes towards other people and cheat in a sport, cause their epeen isnt big enough. Also, im maybe wrong here, but the fact that people actually like that post after you literally admitted that you´ve been coached / coaching every single season you played is disgusting as well, cause it looks like nobody doesnt even gets offended by that anymore.

 

Thumbs up for being honest, but psl is a fkn shitfest and something has to be done if you want to attract new people. Having actual punishments instead of that plushy pseudo punishing bs would be a good start.

[AlitoFernando]

gosh this @Bilburt really luv me 

[Bilburt]

Just now, AlitoFernando said:

gosh this @Bilburt really luv me 

?

[gbwead]

15 minutes ago, DrButler said:

I feel like i have to get that off my chest to rest.

 

I guess theres still a handful of honest people, who think of the game as a sport, but you probably dont understand since the only reason you didnt coach more this season is that itd have been inconvinient for you, right?

 

Nothing personal, but this "but other people do it as well - just admit it, we´re all scumbags" - attitude is fucking disgusting and from a never taken part, but thought about it point of view, i dont see any reason to sign up for an event, which forces me to interact with people, who have disgusting attitudes towards other people and cheat in a sport, cause their epeen isnt big enough. Also, im maybe wrong here, but the fact that people actually like that post after you literally admitted that you´ve been coached / coaching every single season you played is disgusting as well, cause it looks like nobody doesnt even gets offended by that anymore.

 

Thumbs up for being honest, but psl is a fkn shitfest and something has to be done if you want to attract new people. Having actual punishments instead of that plushy pseudo punishing bs would be a good start.

I'm not condoning what he did, but I do appreciate the honesty because it allows us to see the problem for what is really is which is more than a single instance of jj/barrage coaching. The coaching issue is very complex and posts like his helps everyone get a clearer picture of what is actually going on.

[Zymogen]

2 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

• Require that the host can no longer play

I have always felt that this should never have been otherwise, and it should also extend to the small-medium-large-extra large with cheese council in order to further attenuate any potential for decision bias (not that I'm implying that this was an issue this season, but more as a prophylactic measure for future seasons). Not only that, but it would also help to remove the problem of having to delay team preview battles until a member of the council who is not a teammate of one of the battlers is available, if the new host continues with this tier modality. 

 

1 hour ago, fredrichnietze said:

i see a problem with the discord thing. anyone can create a discord and just because the host is in the official team discord doesnt mean that the the team cant have a unofficial team discord for stealthily coaching. ect ect ect. add in that using unofficial team discord for team discussions is prohibited and it gets harder to cheat. 

and yea people can use skype or a billion other messaging services. you cant moderate everything or catch everything but this makes using discord to cheat just a little bit harder.

As everyone and yourself have said, no matter the action undertaken, coaching will always be prevalent within PSL due to the plethora of third party platforms on which to do it; however, the host being in each of the teams' discord can do nothing but aid in slowing down the rate at which coaching is undertaken on Discord at the very least. Whether it's truly effective is another question, but it at least sets a precedent that coaching is not tolerated unlike the current yellow card system, which simply offers a tame slap on the wrist for undermining PSL's integrity and being stupid enough to get caught doing it.

 

I feel that this, combined with Doc's idea of having one nominated "rat" on each team, could turn out to be relatively effective - especially if you're drafted in a team of people who you're not familiar with and therefore cannot trust.

 

Spoiler

P.S. If Doc's idea does get implemented and the nominated players are not officially called "Rats" after what has happened this season then it will be an injustice of the highest order

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Zymogen

[DrButler]

1 minute ago, gbwead said:

I'm not condoning what he did, but I do appreciate the honesty because it allows us to see the problem for what is really is which is more than a single instance of jj/barrage coaching. The coaching issue is very complex and posts like his helps everyone get a clearer picture of what is actually going on.

But ..."you all fucking coach"... so you all probably have a clear picture of whats going on already. Maybe it was that attitude that triggered me, idk, but ye, i do see he has a few valid points.

 

[Kimikozen]

30 minutes ago, DrButler said:

 

I guess theres still a handful of honest people, who think of the game as a sport, but you probably dont understand since the only reason you didnt coach more this season is that itd have been inconvinient for you, right?

 

 

5

This isn't exactly true, let me elaborate. I only coach if my manager/teammate asks me to coach them. It is not like if I had the time I would have coached the whole team. Although, there are definitely people/managers who probably do that. This still does not make it right, just clarifying.

 

Trust me I understand bro. The reason I made that post, and being brutally honest, is that we all need to be more honest about the integrity of PSL. Let's be honest, there is no solution to ghosting, only ways of making it more difficult. I admitted to it, and I would happily change if the rest of the community changed as well.  Does that make me any less of scummy player? No. Most professional cyclists dope because the rest of the competition does it. It's sad, but when I first started playing, I realized right away, coaching happens a lot. Without being honest, we aren't gonna change the integrity situation. 

 

That being said, the TL;DR is some exaggerated hyperbole I probably should've left out. I make it sound like a doomsday situation and everyone coaches, but realistically, most people probably only do it very minimally. PSL is still really fun, the matches are quite fun too, and typically two good players rarely use coaches. But, you are completely right. The prize money is not worth enough to destroy the reputation one has in the community. The problem is, when many people are doing it, (even hosts, managers, captains, etc.), it seems like nothing is morally wrong. Sorry for souring your PSL impression, its only half as shitty as I say it is. But, we kinda have to be honest about our problem if we want change.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Kimikozen

[fredrichnietze]

idk about the rat thing, why not just have bounties and then everyones a rat? also assuming honest rat, that kinda limits the number of possible rats making it easier to guess and exclude the rat from team coaching. if their is a flat bounty on reporting this shit, then everyones a potential rat not just honest people.

[DrButler]

12 minutes ago, Kimikozen said:

I would happily change if the rest of the community changed as well.

be the change you want to see.

 

i get your point tho and i see that posts like these add to the discussion, thinking doesnt work too well when ur pissed, so i perceived the last part wrong. thanks for taking it like a man tho.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by DrButler

[Gunthug]

In theory it'd be nice to have like 5 people to help staff and run PSL who aren't playing. But like I've said, aside from maaaaaybe invitationals, PSL is by far the best event this game has to offer right now and robbing some of our best players of that (likely the ones who would be the "staff" of PSL) is a tall order

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

In theory it'd be nice to have like 5 people to help staff and run PSL who aren't playing. But like I've said, aside from maaaaaybe invitationals, PSL is by far the best event this game has to offer right now and robbing some of our best players of that (likely the ones who would be the "staff" of PSL) is a tall order

Gunthug confirmed scared that he won't be picked next season once DPP is removed. xD