[PSL9] Season Baen9neXL - THE HYPE THREAD

[NikhilR]

@Spaintakula

Not trying to get involved into your other issue with gb, but I remember you mocking Souu's and Nahwel's posts in the OU tier discussion thread, because of their inability to speak fluent English. I just think that the non-english speaking community seems to be on the rise, and if we ever want to help them integrate into the forums, then that kind of behavior should be disallowed. I've also done the same thing before, and it isn't something I'm proud of, but hey we can all change :) 

[KaynineXL]

I'm all for the shit talk and people harassing/making fun of DoubleJ but the annoying bickering should stop now, it's making it hard for us all to see DoubleJ get ripped into.

[Spaintakula]

3 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Not trying to get involved into your other issue with gb, but I remember you mocking Souu's and Nahwel's posts in the OU tier discussion thread, because of their inability to speak fluent English. I just think that the non-english speaking community seems to be on the rise, and if we ever want to help them integrate into the forums, then that kind of behavior should be disallowed. I've also done the same thing before, and it isn't something I'm proud of, but hey we can all change :) 

Can't say I wasn't wrong, must've come out too harsh, probably did insult them for that, which is my bad, and as I said, I have no problem admiting I did wrong.

What I do have a small problem with is him constantly doing the thing I did to them, towards me, and actually thinks he's in the right for some reason.

[Bearminator]

@RysPicz I dont think Staff would fix issue, since discord, ts, private messages are still a thing. Too easy to evade to be worth effort imo. 

[Gunthug]

Alright will try not to make this too long but no promises. If you're afraid of big scary paragraphs then just don't read, the TL;DR is just coaching isn't right for the PSL, the two don't mix.

 

I keep seeing the argument that the coaching rule in psl is ineffective and can't be enforced. That's odd, because the whole reason we're talking about this is that the coaching rule is proving effective and is being enforced? Yeah, we can't catch every single little instance of coaching, but how important is it that we do? Isn't PSL still competitive if occasionally, people are whispering calcs to their teammates and don't get caught? As long as we catch the absolute massive instances of coaching (JJ and parke hard-coaching barrage through an entire battle on discord) then we can say that at least some cheaters are getting caught and punished. I know this analogy is worn out at this point, but I'll offer it again - you can't stop every single murder, but that's absolutely no reason to just get rid of laws against it. Why do we still have laws against murder? Because society is a lot better without it lol

 

Similarly, PSL is a lot better without coaching. To me, PSL is most like fantasy sports - a manager drafts/purchases through auction a team of players, who are each valued based on their skills in combat. You have a limited amount of credits to spend, so the auction is quite the balancing act - you dole out the big bucks on the players who are worth it, and you try to find deals where you can that will save you money and also net you a solid player who may exceed expectations. That's honestly the most fun part of being a manager - when your 2k player has a breakout season.

 

(again, I know we've heard this argument 3,000 times but its just such a surefire counter to the "allow coaching" crowd that it bears repeating) With coaching allowed, this entire balance is completely thrown out the window. The game then becomes, how much money will it cost me to draft a few players who can quite literally run my team? After you secure those players, who you draft in your remaining team slots simply does not matter. All up and coming players who want to throw their weight into the ring and show what they can do will be heavily influenced to allow more experienced, established players on their team to coach them, and even solid players will still be pressured to "do what helps their team" and step aside for one of the big guns to control them. You say in your second post GB that coaches won't be allowed to force players to be coached, but that's even harder to police than coaching as it is right now. A manager will have a massive incentive to draft players willing to be coached, and any player who says they don't want to be coached will simply be passed by for someone who will. You are incredibly naive if you think this isn't the case.

 

I'm not gonna address the "coaching makes people better" argument too much because it's quite simply absurd. Any skill gained by "being coached" is no different than the skill you'd gain by a better player talking with you after a match about what went wrong, things you did well, things to improve on, etc. The only difference is, in a coaching-free PSL, the outcome of the match won't be affected because the worse player won't actually be making his own decisions.

 

This is already getting too long, so I'll wrap up with this. How do we fix coaching? We keep on punishing it where we can, and honestly, the punishments should get much harsher. It may be unlikely that you'll get caught, but by slamming those who do get caught, it forces people to put in that much more effort to break the rules - thereby increasing the ilkelihood of a slipup. I'd support an instant, 1 season ban for anyone caught coaching, and no refund given to the manager who drafted that player. If you want to create an event where coaching is allowed, go make a Team Tourney 2.0, ask eggplant how that one worked out. But for PSL, which is an event comprising a delicate balance of teamwork and individual prowess, we have to try to police this shit so that weak willed players who coach/get coached don't prevail. 

 

 

[PinkLabel]

Once again, what prevents players who did coach, still coach once banned? they can do it for revenge or just keep doing it.
No one will denounce the coaching and that exists in all the teams, STOP to close the eyes and to pretend that all is well. Found instead a way to change the rules for the sake of PSL.

Edited April 5, 2018 by PinkLabel

[DoubleJ]

12 minutes ago, PinkLabel said:

Once again, what prevents players who did coach, still coach once banned? they can do it for revenge or just keep doing it.
No one will denounce the coaching and that exists in all the teams, STOP to close the eyes and to pretend that all is well. Found instead a way to change the rules for the sake of PSL.

You're right, I'm still gonna coach the rats. 

 

 

@Gunthug You're absolutely right, coaching is ass in the PSL and it shouldn't be a thing. It just voids the entire premise behind this event. Although, we do have evidence against additional players and nothing is being done about it. We have players who have admitted to coaching and the same witness who convicted me is claiming that he knows of other coaches within the event. Where is the justice if we only target myself and Barrage? And before you reply, take a moment to read this without thinking "Fucking JJ you cry baby!" I'm trying to have an honest conversation here with an intelligent person who has a strong opinion on this issue. If you'd rather this go private, send me a PM. 

[DoctorPBC]

1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

You're right, I'm still gonna coach the rats. 

 

 

@Gunthug You're absolutely right, coaching is ass in the PSL and it shouldn't be a thing. It just voids the entire premise behind this event. Although, we do have evidence against additional players and nothing is being done about it. We have players who have admitted to coaching and the same witness who convicted me is claiming that he knows of other coaches within the event. Where is the justice if we only target myself and Barrage? And before you reply, take a moment to read this without thinking "Fucking JJ you cry baby!" I'm trying to have an honest conversation here with an intelligent person who has a strong opinion on this issue. If you'd rather this go private, send me a PM. 

Name and shame bro, it’s out there might as well rip off the band aid 

[PinkLabel]

@DoubleJ What do you want me to do ? i can ban Half of PSL with some small council and THEY know it. But they still act like nothing is happening. I will wait the end of PSL if nothing is done i'm gonna ban some players and some managers for coaching or getting coached.

You'r not the only one doing this and it's funny to see the people who blaming you are the one who do it.

[DoctorPBC]

4 minutes ago, PinkLabel said:

@DoubleJ What do you want me to do ? i can ban Half of PSL with some small council and THEY know it. But they still act like nothing is happening. I will wait the end of PSL if nothing is done i'm gonna ban some players and some managers for coaching or getting coached.

You'r not the only one doing this and it's funny to see the people who blaming you are the one who do it.

Name and shame bro

[Mkns1070]

Making coaching possible is just stupid,
firstly the value of the players becomes totally wrong.
How many times during this season have I seen my players make stupid play, but instead of going to tell them what to do I would complain to @gbwead or @BurntZebra
Each player has his skill and his style of play, and that's the beauty of the game.
It's true that it's not something we can stop because there are discord, ts ... But I think that winning without playing has no merit.
I think if we have to correct the rules. Allow the player to receive messages such as "it may be Shadow Ball" or "I think EQ kills".
But a player who needs to be coached during a duel, has nothing to do in the PSL.
But otherwise #FreeJJ #FreeBarrage #RipApes #RipK9 #RipGiantpipe #RipPSL9 #FreeHopyrevenge #PinklabelGrunt #DramaLabel #WelcomNewBiasedHost 

[NikhilR]

Y'all need to bring back ROY ROGERS INC because I'm not going to stand by and let this unjust happen to the mayor of my town. 

 

EDIT: Look at this sexy ass sig my mayor made. Don't do this to him!

Edited April 5, 2018 by NikhilR

[Nawe]

4 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Making coaching possible is just stupid,
firstly the value of the players becomes totally wrong.
How many times during this season have I seen my players make stupid play, but instead of going to tell them what to do I would complain to @gbwead or @BurntZebra
Each player has his skill and his style of play, and that's the beauty of the game.
It's true that it's not something we can stop because there are discord, ts ... But I think that winning without playing has no merit.
I think if we have to correct the rules. Allow the player to receive messages such as "it may be Shadow Ball" or "I think EQ kills".
But a player who needs to be coached during a duel, has nothing to do in the PSL.
But otherwise #FreeJJ #FreeBarrage #RipApes #RipK9 #RipGiantpipe #RipPSL9 #FreeHopyrevenge #PinklabelGrunt #DramaLabel #WelcomNewBiasedHost 

i will miss those messages after my fights every week insulting me for my stupid plays

[gbwead]

49 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Alright will try not to make this too long but no promises. If you're afraid of big scary paragraphs then just don't read, the TL;DR is just coaching isn't right for the PSL, the two don't mix.

 

I keep seeing the argument that the coaching rule in psl is ineffective and can't be enforced. That's odd, because the whole reason we're talking about this is that the coaching rule is proving effective and is being enforced? Yeah, we can't catch every single little instance of coaching, but how important is it that we do? Isn't PSL still competitive if occasionally, people are whispering calcs to their teammates and don't get caught? As long as we catch the absolute massive instances of coaching (JJ and parke hard-coaching barrage through an entire battle on discord) then we can say that at least some cheaters are getting caught and punished. I know this analogy is worn out at this point, but I'll offer it again - you can't stop every single murder, but that's absolutely no reason to just get rid of laws against it. Why do we still have laws against murder? Because society is a lot better without it lol

 

Similarly, PSL is a lot better without coaching. To me, PSL is most like fantasy sports - a manager drafts/purchases through auction a team of players, who are each valued based on their skills in combat. You have a limited amount of credits to spend, so the auction is quite the balancing act - you dole out the big bucks on the players who are worth it, and you try to find deals where you can that will save you money and also net you a solid player who may exceed expectations. That's honestly the most fun part of being a manager - when your 2k player has a breakout season.

 

(again, I know we've heard this argument 3,000 times but its just such a surefire counter to the "allow coaching" crowd that it bears repeating) With coaching allowed, this entire balance is completely thrown out the window. The game then becomes, how much money will it cost me to draft a few players who can quite literally run my team? After you secure those players, who you draft in your remaining team slots simply does not matter. All up and coming players who want to throw their weight into the ring and show what they can do will be heavily influenced to allow more experienced, established players on their team to coach them, and even solid players will still be pressured to "do what helps their team" and step aside for one of the big guns to control them. You say in your second post GB that coaches won't be allowed to force players to be coached, but that's even harder to police than coaching as it is right now. A manager will have a massive incentive to draft players willing to be coached, and any player who says they don't want to be coached will simply be passed by for someone who will. You are incredibly naive if you think this isn't the case.

 

I'm not gonna address the "coaching makes people better" argument too much because it's quite simply absurd. Any skill gained by "being coached" is no different than the skill you'd gain by a better player talking with you after a match about what went wrong, things you did well, things to improve on, etc. The only difference is, in a coaching-free PSL, the outcome of the match won't be affected because the worse player won't actually be making his own decisions.

 

This is already getting too long, so I'll wrap up with this. How do we fix coaching? We keep on punishing it where we can, and honestly, the punishments should get much harsher. It may be unlikely that you'll get caught, but by slamming those who do get caught, it forces people to put in that much more effort to break the rules - thereby increasing the ilkelihood of a slipup. I'd support an instant, 1 season ban for anyone caught coaching, and no refund given to the manager who drafted that player. If you want to create an event where coaching is allowed, go make a Team Tourney 2.0, ask eggplant how that one worked out. But for PSL, which is an event comprising a delicate balance of teamwork and individual prowess, we have to try to police this shit so that weak willed players who coach/get coached don't prevail. 

An ideal PSL would be a coachless PSL. I agree with you there, but that's just not realistic. JJ got caught, Barrage got caught, the rule has been enforced. Great! Now what? You can't seriously think that they were the only two involved in heavy coaching. JJ and Barrage are only the tip of the iceberg. If, in order for PSL to be successful, we need to keep up the facade that everything is fine and that the coaching rule is effective, so be it. I understand why preserving such an ideal may be important, but I won't be one of those that fall for that.

 

As for managers forcing their players to get coached, I think it's way more easy to prevent. The main reason why people don't rat coaches is because there is nothing to gain by doing so. A player that rats out his manager for forcing him to get coached gains protection for the small council, so the incentive is there.

 

The best way to prevent coaching imo is to make the competititive community better because the best players won't be able to master more than their own tier. A way to do so is by allowing coaching because everyone will play agaisnt better opponents that make less mistakes. It's very difficult for the community to improve if bad players keep facing bad players and develop battling skills for bad players.

Edited April 5, 2018 by gbwead

[PinkLabel]

5 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

Making coaching possible is just stupid,
I think if we have to correct the rules. Allow the player to receive messages such as "it may be Shadow Ball" or "I think EQ kills".
 

Allow the player to receive messages is COACHING, calling some moves is coaching. People doing it and will still do it no matter the punishment.

[Mkns1070]

Just now, PinkLabel said:

Allow the player to receive messages is COACHING, calling some moves is coaching. People doing it and will still do it no matter the punishment.

I know, I totally agree with you. But there is a difference between being coached all the match like a puppet, and receiving some messages when the person PLAYING his match.
Idk if I am clear

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

I know, I totally agree with you. But there is a difference between being coached all the match like a puppet, and receiving some messages when the person PLAYING his match.
Idk if I am clear

Ya ghosting vs coaching. Ghosting is much worse.

[NikhilR]

Just now, gbwead said:

An ideal PSL would be a coachless PSL. I agree with you there, but that's just not realistic. JJ got caught, Barrage got caught, the rule has been enforced. Great! Now what? You can't seriously think that they were the only two involved in heavy coaching. JJ and Barrage are only the tip of the iceberg. If, in order for PSL to be successful, we need to keep up the facade that everything is fine and that the coaching rule is effective, so be it. I understand why preserving such an ideal may be important, but I won't be one of those that fall fall for that.

 

As for managers forcing their players to get coached, I think it's way more easy to prevent. The main reason why people don't rat coaches is because there is nothing to gain by doing so. A player that rats out his manager for forcing him to get coached gains protection for the small council, so the incentive is there. The best way to prevent coaching imo is to make the competititive community better because the best players won't be able to master more than their own tier. A way to do so is by allowing coaching because everyone will play agaisnt better opponents that make less mistakes. It's very difficult for the community to improve if bad players keep facing bad players and develop battling skills for bad players.

Tbh I think this is the best step to take towards aiming for a clean PSL.

 

Pros of allowing coaching:

1) Better quality games I suppose

 

Cons of allowing coaching:

1) No good feeling in getting such a W, unless well you're a different kind of person, and this basically means no genuine motivation to play PSL from henceforth.

2) Players are genuinely not going to improve.

3) Related to #2, but it's a sign of how bad the community is at this game.

4) Undermines the whole auction system

 

(feel free to let me know what I missed out on)

 

As much as I like #1 as a pro from a spectator's perspective, the cons are just way too many. Regarding 2) and 3) in the Cons, I honestly don't know where to begin. The number of good players in our playerbase is just gradually decreasing, and there isn't really any such program or way for players to strive towards improving. It was much easier back in 2013 or earlier to get better at this game because you were in the midst of some of the best, unofficials were alive af and they played a huge role in helping me improve. I just don't know what the reality of the situation is like for an up and coming player right now.  Maybe this game needs a mentorship / tutor program to actually guide some of the players because the guide section is definitely not that helpful.  There needs to be perhaps more work for the TC or assign staff to actually create better guides / sample teams because the current staff is limited to just hosting officials for players without helping raise the competitiveness bar. This is by no means saying that coaching should be allowed, and while this is a necessary step to take to make this event more clean, I also think we need to be then realistic of the standard of competitiveness of games that we set for the next PSL event. I remember some comments regarding the Fred vs Jaawax game in LC about how terrible it was, and the effect of this decision is that there probably will be more games of similar quality, but this is what needs to be done.

[Mkns1070]

4 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Tbh I think this is the best step to take towards aiming for a clean PSL.

 

Pros of allowing coaching:

1) Better quality games I suppose

 

Cons of allowing coaching:

1) No good feeling in getting such a W, unless well you're a different kind of person, and this basically means no genuine motivation to play PSL from henceforth.

2) Players are genuinely not going to improve.

3) Related to #2, but it's a sign of how bad the community is at this game.

4) Undermines the whole auction system

 

(feel free to let me know what I missed out on)

 

As much as I like #1 as a pro from a spectator's perspective, the cons are just way too many. Regarding 2) and 3) in the Cons, I honestly don't know where to begin. The number of good players in our playerbase is just gradually decreasing, and there isn't really any such program or way for players to strive towards improving. It was much easier back in 2013 or earlier to get better at this game because you were in the midst of some of the best, unofficials were alive af and they played a huge role in helping me improve. I just don't know what the reality of the situation is like for an up and coming player right now.  Maybe this game needs a mentorship / tutor program to actually guide some of the players because the guide section is definitely not that helpful.  There needs to be perhaps more work for the TC or assign staff to actually create better guides / sample teams because the current staff is limited to just hosting officials for players without helping raise the competitiveness bar. This is by no means saying that coaching should be allowed, and while this is a necessary step to take to make this event more clean, I also think we need to be then realistic of the standard of competitiveness of games that we set for the next PSL event. I remember some comments regarding the Fred vs Jaawax game in LC about how terrible it was, and the effect of this decision is that there probably will be more games of similar quality, but this is what needs to be done.

I agree with you, I would just like to add that if jaawax won, it's only because fred is bad. Sorry
it's clear that there are something to change, and if it is badly done, it can make the competition terribly bad

[LionKIng]

Gb are u serious right now..I get that dueling better players and getting coached improves the skills of a player but psl is not the platform to do so. U have ranked. Officials. Playing friends team mates etc. Psl is supposed to be player value hence the auction with fictional money. If u take that away psl is meaningless and is just basically team tournament for a team u dont really care about and team mates u dont know telling u what to do. 

[Nawe]

4 minutes ago, MknsZblex said:

 if jaawax won, it's only because fred is bad

or was couched (jouking)

[Mkns1070]

1 minute ago, Nawe said:

or was couched (jouking)

true.. who know ?

[gbwead]

2 minutes ago, LionKIng said:

Gb are u serious right now..I get that dueling better players and getting coached improves the skills of a player but psl is not the platform to do so. U have ranked. Officials. Playing friends team mates etc. Psl is supposed to be player value hence the auction with fictional money. If u take that away psl is meaningless and is just basically team tournament for a team u dont really care about and team mates u dont know telling u what to do. 

I just don't like the current alternative when coaching is happening right under our nose and we can't do shit about it. Like the event is a joke if we can't get the coaching under control.

[fredrichnietze]

5 hours ago, Gunthug said:

JJ and parke hard-coaching barrage through an entire battle on discord)

did parke get a yellow/red card too? is it ok to coach if youre bad?

[Gunthug]

1 hour ago, DoubleJ said:

You're right, I'm still gonna coach the rats. 

 

 

@Gunthug You're absolutely right, coaching is ass in the PSL and it shouldn't be a thing. It just voids the entire premise behind this event. Although, we do have evidence against additional players and nothing is being done about it. We have players who have admitted to coaching and the same witness who convicted me is claiming that he knows of other coaches within the event. Where is the justice if we only target myself and Barrage? And before you reply, take a moment to read this without thinking "Fucking JJ you cry baby!" I'm trying to have an honest conversation here with an intelligent person who has a strong opinion on this issue. If you'd rather this go private, send me a PM. 

I've also seen and heard the reports of other instances of coaching that may even have proof to accomanpy. But do any of those incidents involve players still in the competition?