[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[YourAngst]

I feel like this discussion dosen t go anywhere so far so i once again propose the ideea to simply complex ban arena trap+magic bounce , i know that to most of you this will either seem like a pointless complex ban, since it dosen t address  the main problem with dug and that is arena trap and the effects/problems it brings and to others this complex ban may seem like only a small band aid solution regarding dug but hear me out

 

There is one ''argument''(not much of an argument the way it was worded) that despite being said in a very condescending way i feel like most of us could get behinde with diffrent wording and that is ''mindlessly copying smogon regarding dug's ban'' - or something along those lines , so trying to understand this point of view i think i see where its comeing from basically our metagame is a lot more dynamic and more prone  to chnage when compared with the older metagames where dug was baned, due the constant updates made by the devs not to mention that those older gens also don t recive as much or as offten tiering as we do , also the initial ban on dug in gen 7 was thanks to Z moves wich allowed dug to guarantee kill the mon it had traped allowing the team dug was supporting wich was ussualy stall to win a 5v5 stall game affter this it got baned from gens 6,5 and 4 for doing similar stuff however in those other 3 gens like i said in my previous post dug is a lot weaker and does not have acces to a nuke ( z moves) but what it does have its magic bounce support wich allowed to dug to keep its focus sash intact and safely trap and kill the pokemon it had to trap , now some may say ''magic bounce did not exist in gen 4 and dug was still baned'' that is true however our metagame is more close to those of gen 5 and 6 and i belive that this complex ban will fix the current problem of dug .

 

This complex ban brings the best of both worlds really ( atleast imo) for those that want to keep dugi , the pokemon itself completely intact with all the qualitys it has to offer both in ability and movepoll they can and at the same time it also makes dug a lot more easy and fair to play against ( again imo) since now it will take actual skill and cerful maneuvering to keep dug's focus sash intact the way things are now those dug teams focus more so on preventhing hazzards on the field useing magic baunce rather then relying on deofg or rapid spin ,  they do use defog too but that is more so  if espeon is either dead or to low to hit the field again , however without the help of MB they now can only use defog and/or rapid spin to clear the field  , now dug has more counterplay to it since now its traping has some interaction to it at least when compared to the way it is now

 

The way dug is now thanks to MB allowes it to keep its focus sash intact so it can sfely trap and kill what it wants to without fearing a KO itself not only that but dug once left at one hp has options in its movepool for everything that comes in affter : something faster then dug that wants to secure the KO - dug has sucker punch for chip , something that wants to set up and boost its speed- rock tomb . something slower that wants to set up - memento / toxic , if none of the above it can just set stelth rock , its true that dug can t do all of this at once but it can do a lot more then its realtive low stats allow it too and to me all of this is manly due to its partner MB being able to keep its sash intact .

 

Overall dug as a pokemon despite haveing an ability that eliminates a core mechanic of the game that has been here since gen 1 aka since the beginig wich is switching , its still at its core a preatty trash pokemon all things considerd (affter all you can see on all the posts that i made in this thread and in others that I never reffer to dug alone but allways to dug and friends ) so i want to hear others thoughts regarding this complex ban ideea

 

 

[Doctor]

I think that the main complain/reason behind Duggy's ban is Arena Trap and the inability to switch out for grounded mons on its own, no matter if Dugtrio has sash active or not, or if it enables or not other teammates. Like, the thing we're really discussing is if we should allow a Pokémon to prevent anything not flying, ghost or levitating to switch out. The possibilities of Dugtrio enabling teammates/removing threats/whatever all come from that specific aspect of the Pokémon, so I think that should be the main focus.

 

Like, yeah, discussing how it's used/played is always useful to understand what happens around it, but I don't think it does stuff much more differently than any other trapper in terms of what it allows your team to do. Rather, the main difference is the characteristics of the trapping itself that have stirred up the discussion in the first place.

 

On the Magic Bounce + Dugtrio complex ban, I think it falls under the same thing I mentioned above: while I understand the reasoning behind it, it doesn't solve the real problem: Arena Trap inevitably trapping something with a wide range of available targets and stuff you can do after doing it. It would also severly hinder some stuff like sun teams that rely on both Magic Bounce to prevent rocks + Dugtrio to get rid of Tyranitar; and at that point an Arena Trap ban would be basically the same thing.

 

Sorry if when I said we should stop trying to be Smogon it sounded condescending, what I meant by that is that with such a different metagame, with different mechanics, different items and even different team archetypes to some extent we can't possibly try to replicate measures that were taken addressing all the variables of gen 5. No permanent weather, no Heatran/Jirachi/Cresselia/Lati/Kyurem, Spore can't affect grass-types and the sleep mechanics aren't the gen 5 ones, stuff like Reactive Gas and Assault Gear, all of those combined make it hard for us to "import" decisions from past generations. Arena Trap is no less competitive in ADV than it is in gen 4+, in the sense that it still removes the ability to switch out; it's just less effective at what it does because no Focus Sash, more Levitate/flying mons in the meta due to the absence of Stealth Rock and Spikes being the hazard to build around, etc. It's the specifics of each generation and what Dugtrio was able to do in them that got him banned, not just the "uncompetitiveness" of Arena Trap. And in OUR metagame the things it enables are nowhere near the broken stuff it was able to do in those gens.

[Helmut]

As a sun team enjoyer, i think this kind of team is done without Dugtrio, as they rely heavily on it to not get totally countered by Ttar. 
That sucks

[caioxlive13]

21 hours ago, Munya said:

Votes don't happen immediately, some votes can take days to happen.  They are going to have to make a thread anyway for it to be banned and I am not comfortable having bans where input isn't taken at all. Reading arguments and accepting the possibility that they might be wrong on some view given the right argument should be something every TC member is willing to do, being rigid and unmoving is not a good thing because then discussion would entirely be pointless.

I think community won't mind on not giving input on quick bans. In a scenario when quick ban happens there is nothing to discuss, TC already decided it's broken, and a simply announcement on OU Discussion thread or whatever is the discussion thread of the tier telling: "Hey, the TC is looking at X pokemon and we're doing a quick ban vote." is more than enough, and according to the quick ban concept: "Any further discussion is pointless.". When there is a Standart Ban, TC is not fully conviced and there needs to have a discussion to maybe someone change their mind. Right now, as Gb sayed, the Quickban is more an option of whether the TC wants us to shut up or not. 

[vaguelylistless]

I completely agree with Doctor, Queza and LiveLaughHate takes on the matter: I feel like Dugtrio, and by extension Arena Trap, is a necessary evil as much as others might despise its inclusion.

 

DNB

 

 

[Frag]

The base of the game is about switching, arena trap prevents that, and you can't do anything to prevent it, so is broken, simple as that.

[SakuyaZ]

1 hour ago, Frag said:

The base of the game is about switching, arena trap prevents that, and you can't do anything to prevent it, so is broken, simple as that.

The most effective and simplest comment in the thread. lol. 

[Helmut]

 

1 hour ago, Frag said:

The base of the game is about switching, arena trap prevents that, and you can't do anything to prevent it, so is broken, simple as that.

It's as simple as wrong
Using attacks is the base of the game, should we ban fake out and spore ?

[SuperBXdanielo]

17 minutes ago, Helmut said:

 

It's as simple as wrong
Using attacks is the base of the game, should we ban fake out and spore ?

At least you can use lum berry or rocky helmet to punish them, as they are very common strategies that can be played around. But you  can't do the same with dugtrio, just be trapped and killed

[Helmut]

3 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

At least you can use lum berry or rocky helmet to punish them, as they are very common strategies that can be played around. But you  can't do the same with dugtrio, just be trapped and killed

Shed shell

[SuperBXdanielo]

13 minutes ago, Helmut said:

Shed shell

Dragonite lum berry is good, shed shell magnezone terrible 

[vaguelylistless]

2 hours ago, Frag said:

The base of the game is about switching, arena trap prevents that, and you can't do anything to prevent it, so is broken, simple as that.

To be frank, there are a lot of things in base-game that are banned because of the aspect of lack of control but in this scenario, Arena Trap is not one of them. There are viable means of counter-play against Arena Trap to mitigate that psychological sense of helplessness. Shed Shell, Flying/Ghost Types, Levitate and Pivoting (i.e. BP, U-turn, Volt Switch, TP, etc.) are commonplace within the meta-game so it seems fairly disingenuous to say that it is an untenable aspect of the meta-game despite such counter-play existing around Arena Trap and not only that but Dugtrio has a ton of exploitable weaknesses.

 

Also, the base-game allows for OHKO-moves, has no sleep-clause, and no species-clause so can you at least consider why that line of argumentation doesn't quite hold up to scrutiny?

 

18 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

At least you can use lum berry or rocky helmet to punish them, as they are very common strategies that can be played around. But you  can't do the same with dugtrio, just be trapped and killed

See above.

Edited February 8 by vaguelylistless

[caioxlive13]

11 minutes ago, Helmut said:

Shed shell

In the case of Lum Berry and rocky Helmet, they do more than punish fake out/spore. Lum Berry allows to evade annoying scald burns, toxic and WoW. Rocky Helmet chips any physical dmg so resist prioritys in general had a bad time. But shed shell don't give any actual benefit besides escape dugtrio, if you don't face it, that will happen 90% of the time, your item will have the same value than a stall player a Magikarp in your team.

[vaguelylistless]

6 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

In the case of Lum Berry and rocky Helmet, they do more than punish fake out/spore. Lum Berry allows to evade annoying scald burns, toxic and WoW. Rocky Helmet chips any physical dmg so resist prioritys in general had a bad time. But shed shell don't give any actual benefit besides escape dugtrio, if you don't face it, that will happen 90% of the time, your item will have the same value than a stall player a Magikarp in your team.

The benefit of Shed Shell is that you escape trapping altogether not just Dugtrio. I mean the reason why the item has such notoriety in the first place is because of how Skarmory uses it to escape being trapped by Magnezone.

[SuperBXdanielo]

34 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

To be frank, there are a lot of things in base-game that are banned because of the aspect of lack of control but in this scenario, Arena Trap is not one of them. There are viable means of counter-play against Arena Trap to mitigate that psychological sense of helplessness. Shed Shell, Flying/Ghost Types, Levitate and Pivoting (i.e. BP, U-turn, Volt Switch, TP, etc.) are commonplace within the meta-game so it seems fairly disingenuous to say that it is an untenable aspect of the meta-game despite such counter-play existing around Arena Trap and not only that but Dugtrio has a ton of exploitable weaknesses.

 

Also, the base-game allows for OHKO-moves, has no sleep-clause, and no species-clause so can you at least consider why that line of argumentation doesn't quite hold up to scrutiny?

 

See above.

Those counters can easily be exploited by his teammates, there's a reason for dugtrio have a niche alongside porygon2 and Shedinja. Shed shell is a terrible item that don't have many use outside of very specific situation, lum berry and rock helmet can be useful in many other ways, as caio said.

[vaguelylistless]

33 minutes ago, Frag said:

Whats ur elo big man, maybe I should start to take note about these things u triying to teach me

Don't take my comment as a form of condescension as that was never my intention. I just found some issues with your argumentation particularly in reference to how the negation of an in-game mechanic doesn't equate to it being broken in competitive play.

 

20 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Those counters can easily be exploited by his teammates, there's a reason for dugtrio have a niche alongside porygon2 and Shedinja. Shed shell is a terrible item that don't have many use outside of very specific situation, lum berry and rock helmet can be useful in many other ways, as caio said.

You should read my most recent reply in which I reference Skarmory's quite notable use of Shed Shell to mitigate being trapped by Magnezone. Yes, while shed shell is quite niche, it still has a valuable niche in the meta-game expressly to avoid being trapped by particular threats. In Teambuilding, you aren't even "wasting" an item slot but preparing for common threats in the meta-game and that includes trapping abilities like Magnet Pull or Arena Trap. This is a factor one should be prepared for and a necessary evil in competitive play.

Edited February 8 by vaguelylistless
syntax

[SuperBXdanielo]

3 minutes ago, vaguelylistless said:

Don't take my comment as a form of condescension as that was never my intention. I just found some issues with your argumentation particularly in reference to how the negation of an in-game mechanic doesn't equate to it being broken in competitive play.

 

You should read my most recent reply in which I reference Skarmory's quite notable use of Shed Shell to mitigate being trapped by Magnezone. Yes, while shed shell is quite niche, it still has a valuable niche in the meta-game expressly to avoid being trapped by particular threats. In Teambuilding, you aren't even "wasting" an item slot but preparing for common threats in the meta-game and that includes trapping abilities like Magnet Pull or Arena Trap. This is a factor one should be prepared for and a necessary evil in competitive play.

Skarmory is responsible to punish u turn attempts from Pokemons like Scizor, who would take damage from rocky helmet. Why use a shed shell skarmory, if it can't do what's supposed to do? Why use a non assault vest tyranitar, if he can't take starmie hydro pump? Shed shell will not resolve the dugtrio problem, if that's was the case, them every dugtrio weak Mon would use the item. That's the reason behind frag ironic response, if you don't get it, you think that everyone who plays the game and lost to dugtrio are stupid because they don't use a shed shell tyranitar?

[vaguelylistless]

24 minutes ago, SuperBXdanielo said:

Skarmory is responsible to punish u turn attempts from Pokemons like Scizor, who would take damage from rocky helmet. Why use a shed shell skarmory, if it can't do what's supposed to do? Why use a non assault vest tyranitar, if he can't take starmie hydro pump? Shed shell will not resolve the dugtrio problem, if that's was the case, them every dugtrio weak Mon would use the item. That's the reason behind frag ironic response, if you don't get it, you think that everyone who plays the game and lost to dugtrio are stupid because they don't use a shed shell tyranitar?

I understand the implication behind Frag's comment but it seems like people are misinterpreting my viewpoint or don't understand what I am trying to convey.

 

Simply stated: Shed Shell is a niche item but has wider applications in competitive play. As I pointed out, Skarm is well-known for equipping Shed Shell to avoid being trapped by Mag in DragMag Cores. In most scenarios, you don't even need to "waste" an item slot to have some counter-play against trapping abilities.

 

I never meant to imply that running Shed Shell Ttar was a viable option, I was just making a wider point around the usage of Shed Shell.

 

Also, I take issue with your claim that Dugtrio is a "problem" to begin with. It might seem frustrating or annoying to encounter but that doesn't mean it is not competitive or unhealthy to the tier. That is why I feel like it is a necessary evil.

Edited February 8 by vaguelylistless
phrasing and better argumentation

[Doctor]

I didn’t know we needed to show our PvP stats to be able to give arguments in a discussion thread 

[caioxlive13]

11 hours ago, vaguelylistless said:

The benefit of Shed Shell is that you escape trapping altogether not just Dugtrio. I mean the reason why the item has such notoriety in the first place is because of how Skarmory uses it to escape being trapped by Magnezone.

Is not. Because let me remind you, on OU rn all steel mons OU BY USAGE(Before someone tries to mention Empoleon or Lucario) either fly or levitate, except ferrothorn which dugtrio can't do much, since it dies to gyro ball and trying to reversal cause them to faint too, ferro also has leech seed to break sash without powering the reversal up. So, basically you use shed shell to esape trapping either from Magnezone/Dugtrio , or Wobbu and the second one is not nearly as useful due to 3 turns Shadow Tag. So you use shed shell to escape 1 single mon

Edited February 9 by caioxlive13

[Doctor]

12 minutes ago, caioxlive13 said:

Is not. Because let me remind you, on OU rn all steel mons OU BY USAGE(Before someone tries to mention Empoleon or Lucario) either fly or levitate, except ferrothorn which dugtrio can't do much, since it dies to gyro ball and trying to reversal cause them to faint too, ferro also has leech seed to break sash without powering the reversal up. So, basically you use shed shell to esape trapping either from Magnezone/Dugtrio , or Wobbu and the second one is not nearly as useful due to 3 turns Shadow Tag. So you use shed shell to escape 1 single mon

It's that time again, Caio thinking Pokémon don't exist in a tier because they are in a lower tier by usage. Empoleon is a very real Pokémon in OU with more usage than, for starters, Dugtrio itself that not only walls a lot of Pokémon in OU by usage but also offers a lot of good support with Defog, Roar, Stealth Rocks, Toxic, good special attack to take advantage of Competitive, etc. Lucario is also a very real Pokémon in OU so I don't know why you'd dismiss stuff just because it doesn't align with your belief about Magnezone not trapping anything.

 

The only reason Shed Shell isn't more used is because Magnezone stopped being so used, but a few years ago Shed Shell was the go-to item for Skarmory because Magnezone was literally everywhere, because Ferrothorn was everywhere. Metagames are way more complex than you want to make them seem. I however agree with Shed Shell not being a good answer to Dugtrio because it makes you have a bad item to potentially counter something that you might not even encounter, similar to how Gastrodon sometimes holds Mail so Rotom can't trick it and thus absolutely walling any Rotom-W variant, but that comes at the expense of not holding lefties. But in our meta I think it's perfectly balanced with what stuff it actually checks and what is able to enable vs. how dead weight it becomes in a majority of games with so many variables funneling into it not being able to do anything it's supposed to do.

 

I'm just gonna point again at LiveLaughHate's post because I still think it focuses on the actual discussion very nicely, and I'm gonna advocate for a NO BAN vote.

 

PS: Excadrill, Metagross and Scizor are my favourite flying steels in OU

[caioxlive13]

8 hours ago, Doctor said:

The only reason Shed Shell isn't more used is because Magnezone stopped being so used, but a few years ago Shed Shell was the go-to item for Skarmory because Magnezone was literally everywhere, because Ferrothorn was everywhere. Metagames are way more complex than you want to make them seem. I however agree with Shed Shell not being a good answer to Dugtrio because it makes you have a bad item to potentially counter something that you might not even encounter, similar to how Gastrodon sometimes holds Mail so Rotom can't trick it and thus absolutely walling any Rotom-W variant, but that comes at the expense of not holding lefties. But in our meta I think it's perfectly balanced with what stuff it actually checks and what is able to enable vs. how dead weight it becomes in a majority of games with so many variables funneling into it not being able to do anything it's supposed to do.

I legit forgot about scizor, metagross and excadrill. But about the topic, the problem on using shed shell is because in 80%-90% of the matches will be useless. Mails seems reasonable because trick is far more common, rotom-w/gengar/chandelure/metagross, mentioning examples of trick users. And unlike trapping, without the item you can still play around the tricker. If you have an AV user vs an Trick Rotom-W, you switch to him. If he tricks, he will be no longer able to Heal or even defog. Is far easier to time an possible trick coming. With trapping, you has to switch to an mon immune to trapping, predicting every switch. You has to be careful even when killing a mon or forcing a switch away(With Roar/Whrilwind), because depending of the mon you use, the opponent may want it trapped.

[Azphiel]

I don't believe that Dugtrio nor Arena Trap are broken.

Dugtrio teams that we commonly see are teams that have major flaws which are totally exploitable. The problem lies in the playerbase not adapting their teambuilds to Dugtrio+Magic Bounce and in the difficulties that some players have to properly play against this archetype.

I can totally understand why one might think that Arena Trap has an uncompetitive aspect, even though I don't think so. However it seems absurd to me to say that Dugtrio is too strong for the tier.

 

Even though Arena Trap undermines a fundamental aspect of Pokémon that is switching, there are ways to play around it such as hazards or not letting your most important Pokémon getting chip damage to Dugtrio's range. Positioning is key against Dug. Also, the players must give themselves the tools to play around these Dugtrio teams. If you have "0% chance of winning vs Dug+Magic Bounce" from team preview, then your team is the problem, not the Dug+Magic Bounce team. Each team, as solid as they can be, will inevitably be weak to a certain archetype because a perfect team does not exist. Just like HyperOffense teams, rain teams or stall teams, Dugtrio teams are an archetype that are also part of our metagame.

 

As I said earlier, these Dug teams have major flaws. Weezing, Togekiss and Chandelure are usually excellent against these teams. Zapdos puts some great pressure and is an example of a Togekiss counter that doesn't get trapped by Dug. There are Stealth Rock users that are totally viable that beat Serperior and Espeon and that don't get trapped by Dug, the best example for it being Hydreigon (Check @Ziiiiio's detailed post on Tuesday 6 for more examples).

I believe Dugtrio limits the Dugtrio player's teambuild as much as the opponent's : this is why the vast majority of players are forced to use a Magic Bounce alongside it. Others will chose to play 2 or even 3 defoggers in their team. I think it's a huge commitment in the teambuilding process in order to make use of a Pokémon that has no defensive utility whatsoever. The fact that Dugtrio only works in very specific teams is partly what makes this Pokémon healthy despite its ability.

 

If any change were to happen, I would prefer Dugtrio's base attack stat to be reverted to 80. However I don't believe that a nerf is truly necessary.

[FlacuSkye]

5 hours ago, Azphiel said:

I don't believe that Dugtrio nor Arena Trap are broken.

Dugtrio teams that we commonly see are teams that have major flaws which are totally exploitable. The problem lies in the playerbase not adapting their teambuilds to Dugtrio+Magic Bounce and in the difficulties that some players have to properly play against this archetype.

I can totally understand why one might think that Arena Trap has an uncompetitive aspect, even though I don't think so. However it seems absurd to me to say that Dugtrio is too strong for the tier.

 

I think the main focus should be Dugtrio+Threat it enables (such as Volcarona). It adds nothing to the tier but ways to cheese through teams since it has the ability to consistenly trap all the Pokemon that their partners need gone in order to pull off a sweep. Tyranitar is the main one who suffers from its presence, it's a Pokemon that has proved itself to be a reliable check/counter to virtually all special attackers thanks to its bulk, SpD buff from Sand Stream, and access to Pursuit. Dugtrio enabling many cheese strategies that purely rely on match up fishing makes it, for me at least, not healthy for the metagame at all.
 

 

6 hours ago, Azphiel said:

 

Even though Arena Trap undermines a fundamental aspect of Pokémon that is switching, there are ways to play around it such as hazards or not letting your most important Pokémon getting chip damage to Dugtrio's range. Positioning is key against Dug. Also, the players must give themselves the tools to play around these Dugtrio teams. If you have "0% chance of winning vs Dug+Magic Bounce" from team preview, then your team is the problem, not the Dug+Magic Bounce team. Each team, as solid as they can be, will inevitably be weak to a certain archetype because a perfect team does not exist. Just like HyperOffense teams, rain teams or stall teams, Dugtrio teams are an archetype that are also part of our metagame.

Offense, Rain and Stall, could it be by doing aggresive double switching with hazards, playing around sacrifices to mantain momentum or slowly getting their way with passive damage, all have their own ways to play all possible match ups, while Dugtrio teams usually don't. These teams depend on Dug getting rid of certain Pokemon, and in most occasions, it will not have anything useful to do, being just dead weight.
It's basically playing with restraint in the sense of "should i send Dugtrio here in case of X Pokemon i want to trap comes in or outright lose the match". Not only Magic Bounce teams, other options are being explored right now (Dug is paired with Espeon 66% of the times) that are being able to cheese a win let's say with Volcarona while also not losing to common considered answers to this archetypes such as Weezing, Zapdos, Togekiss, Chandelure (Empoleon, Chansey, Zapdos helps these teams a lot and also are helped by Dug trapping X Pokemon that threatens them).

In ADV, AT has not been banned because the power level is lower, if Dugtrio traps something in your team, you don't outright lose a huge defensive or offensive backbone of your team, since you also hand over momentum to your rival and there are many Pokemon that take advantage of the free turns a CB Dugtrio might give.
But in MMO meta, losing a Pokemon to Dugtrio is even more devastating because you could have lost the only possible answer you had to a certain setup sweeper. A single double switch into Dugtrio can mean your whole team structure gets destroyed.

Even if its attack stat is nerfed, Dugtrio will still be an unhealthy presence in the tier. The simple fact that it's only used in such flawed teams as described doesn't show that it's healthy, but the opposite.

[caioxlive13]

2 hours ago, FlacuSkye said:

But in MMO meta, losing a Pokemon to Dugtrio is even more devastating because you could have lost the only possible answer you had to a certain setup sweeper. A single double switch into Dugtrio can mean your whole team structure gets destroyed.

Another problem you forgot to mention that could be an argument: "People can bring 2 answers to X/Y mon and this throws Dug's strat on the trash" we can't, ArtOfKilling mentioned on some discussion thread, iirc was on the October-2023(Edit: It was, page 2.): 

Quote

Sadly, instead of fixing our current issues, additional problems arise with every big update, whether we are ready for Legendaries or not, or if some Mons' hidden abilities released were justified or not. OU is a catastrophe; you only have 6 possible Mons to choose from out of 47. You are supposed to Wallbreak and Sweep the following: Weezing, Skarm, Gastro, Chansey, Sableye, Gliscor, and Amoonguss, and be ready for Serp, Volc, Dragonite, Breloom, Starmie, Scizor, Hydreigon, Conk, Mamoswine, Togekiss, and have answers for rain so you don't instantly lose to Kabutops or Kingdra. On top of that, the addition of Suicune and Raikou, and potentially Magic Guard Alakazam coming in next as well. The meta of OU is matchup fishing; balance is nonexistent, and it is extremely difficult to build a solid 3 by 3 team that can cover all of that, on top of the PP nerf. It should stop where it is.

Is not a flaw having a team not able to win vs dug, or having just 1 answer to one of their teammates. There is 18 mons you need to be aware, and you has to be ready for Sandstorm with Excadrill, Sun with Venusaur and Rain with Kabutops/Kingdra. How you can fit a mon that fully counters dugtrio, or 2 mons able to counter the same thing, when you need to cover over 20+ threats?

Edited February 10 by caioxlive13